The Gordon Arnold Competition

[Chris Davidson]

Another one.

Comparison of people on the steps.

chris

[Jack White]

If these help for size perspective among people near the wall. Good. If not, disregard.

First 3 photo sequence is the same guy moving from back to front.

Next post is 2 photos with people closer to the wall edge.

chris

Chris,

appreciate your interest & the great photos thank you!

Let me ask you something.

Were the photos where taken by your good self?

If so(& hopefully we you won't get any input from a third part for this next question, until after you've replied) how would you go about matching Moorman's fifth photo exactly?

What's the first thing you'd line-up?

Please refrain from answering Chris's question for him until he has had a chance to reply.

I'm not trying to trick him or anything else.

Alan

Alan,

My brother took the photos when we were back there a few years ago.

They were not taken to recreate the Moorman position.

But, as they include people in different areas around the wall, thought they might offer a comparative size value between individuals.

I would try to line up/size common elements which are furthest away.

chris

Thanks for the reply Chris.

You don't have to respond to this but,

don't you find it more than a little persausive that every single photo taken from "the general area" of Moorman shows people more than twice the size of "Arnold" behind the wall, including yours?

Jack reminded us that differences are expected but, we not talking about minor differences that can be explained by repositioning people a few feet here & there.

If I can line up the south wall with each photo to M5 & every single time it shows someone over twice the size of Arnold, you have to wonder if there is something seriously wrong here, don't you?

Bill & Duncan seem to think that the whole idea of doing this is worthless because of how different things look depending on what camera set up you use(not that it ever stopped Bill in the past).

The problem I have is that the examples they used both show things at very different distances from the camera.

The face of the south wall & "Arnold" are in very close proximity, so the same distant from camera(well according to Arnold supporters they are!) & I can't see how every camera apart from Moorman's shows a giant behind the wall, when in fact they were midgets just like the "Arnold" figure. Can you?

On the correct positioning of a replica M5.

The message I am getting from this thread is.......

even if you do go to the plaza & accurately replicate the Moorman photo, if you place a man in the correct position to line up with the body mass of "Arnold"(& making you the first person to do so) & it doesn't correspond with either a. the Arnold story or b. what is humanly possible, then there must be something wrong with the focal lense you used.

Because only if you get the architecture and the hypothetical forms in the blow-ups lined up together can you ever be considered to have accurately replicated Moorman5.

Anyway Chris, I think the windows in the shelter are considered by others as one of the first things to line up in any photo that shows them, I'm sure you'd agree though that a few inches in height or width in your M5 position would make very little difference to the size of anyone behind the wall.

Alan

Edit: added one word nothing changed AH

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Put your cursor arrow point on top of Newman's head. Then watch

the tiny women come into view during the dissolve, and note where

the Newman cursor is. Does this suggest anything to anyone (besides

me and Bernice)? Why is Newman gigantic compared to the women?

Jack

[Alan Healy]

I repeat...GEOFFREY CRAWLEY did not replicate the Moorman photo with

people. He and I used Mary's camera to take a replication photo WITHOUT

people...but not with people. Nigel Turner took the one with people.

Jack

Then please explain how he did all this;

without placing at least one person behind the wall.

Then you can explain how this man snuck into the photo without anyone noticing.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Put your cursor arrow point on top of Newman's head. Then watch

the tiny women come into view during the dissolve, and note where

the Newman cursor is. Does this suggest anything to anyone (besides

me and Bernice)? Why is Newman gigantic compared to the women?

Jack

Because the focal length in each photo is different?

Riddle me this.

If the people behind the wall in Chris's photos are twice the size of "Arnold" already, what changes will we see if we could bring the focal setting close to Moorman?

Think about the tiny women & how they'll grow to Newman's size & then think about the men behind the wall who are already too big.

Alan

[Bernice Moore]

The photo showing the view of Lee Bowers from the Tower, with text....

I believe was either scanned from " 6 Seconds In Dallas " , or one of Mark Lanes

books...not positive..wherever an early photo and comment.

I have neither at hand, next time I get to the book room... I will double check..

and pass along the info, if it can be of any help..

B.....

*************

I have done a search and the photo with the X, is marked, LaneX.....

so that is one of his....

The photo showing, the dotted line and the text reading the info, to

Bowers view being cut off.......is not Thompsons as far as I have

found..

A similar map is seen in 6 Seconds, though not the same, however, it does have the same

markings.....and LOS.....

Lee Bowers: " At the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves,

the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area..".6H288..

Just look at the photo, and draw your LOS....

BTW Miles : I do believe the Mod Kathy, mention the same to you about bringing

posts down some time ago.....in another long thread....That is what I recall, and

I am not going on a search for

such, though I could be in error, the point has been made and accepted....and I do

believe we appreciate that fact........

B.....

Edited August 28, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Thanks for the time & effort Chris.

I can see you did those as honestly as you could.

Okay it's obvious that we could get various results depending on which photo we compare Moorman to.

It is still highly suggestive however since every modern photo shows real people at or near the wall over twice the size of GIJ.

If Bill Newman looked half the size as those woman, then that could help explain why GIJ is so small but it doesn't help that he appears large, it actually suggests that GIJ if a real person is standing a long long way back from the wall.

Just a close up of what Chris's Gif showed at the wall & I added in the size of GIJ.

Alan

[Bernice Moore]

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Put your cursor arrow point on top of Newman's head. Then watch

the tiny women come into view during the dissolve, and note where

the Newman cursor is. Does this suggest anything to anyone (besides

me and Bernice)? Why is Newman gigantic compared to the women?

Jack

Because the focal length in each photo is different?

Riddle me this.

If the people behind the wall in Chris's photos are twice the size of "Arnold" already, what changes will we see if we could bring the focal setting close to Moorman?

Think about the tiny women & how they'll grow to Newman's size & then think about the men behind the wall who are already too big.

Alan

*****************************

Alan, & All......

Thought.....FWIW..

Bear with me.......if all the people in the new photos, are twice the size of Arnold now.......Then would it perhaps not help if Chris or whomever,

took Zapruder & Sitzman out of the Moorman photo and transposed them behind the wall area.....to see what their approximate

size would be, they also appear to be small, imo.....and are they not approximately or in the area of the same distance in the Moorman

photo...as he would have been at the wall....I am not sure but could it not be....??

Recall also, that there has been much work done on that particular area of the knoll due to heavy rains which hit some years back, creating

mud slides with the hills, and which then was all rebuilt, to a higher degree, steps and all etc...parking lot also.....so no new photo, I do not think will ever

give you anywhere near when compared to what was taken back then....unless there is one out there that has not come to light??....

So could you not use the Moorman that you all have....within itself, to come to some conclusion, or there abouts..??

Here is another of peoples heads seen at the fence line, but it also appears to have been taken not too many years ago.

B...... FWIW....

Edited August 28, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks Chris for posting those brilliant images. Although they are not a correct match with Moorman, the wall area is close enough for comparison purposes in my opinion. The Arnold floating torso is still as small as ever compared to the man in your photograph.

Duncan

Is anyone else getting this message when trying to upload an image?

"Upload failed. Please ask the administrator to check the settings and permissions"

***********

Hi Duncan....

No I do not get a message ,it uploads, but not there when finished,

B..

[Bill Miller]

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Thanks for the time & effort Chris.

I can see you did those as honestly as you could.

Okay it's obvious that we could get various results depending on which photo we compare Moorman to.

It is still highly suggestive however since every modern photo shows real people at or near the wall over twice the size of GIJ.

If Bill Newman looked half the size as those woman, then that could help explain why GIJ is so small but it doesn't help that he appears large, it actually suggests that GIJ if a real person is standing a long long way back from the wall.

Just a close up of what Chris's Gif showed at the wall & I added in the size of GIJ.

Alan

And you wonder why people call CT's "Buffs". Look at the large tree over the wall ... notice anything different about it when compared to Moorman's photograph .... (sigh~)

Bill

Edited August 28, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

The photo showing the view of Lee Bowers from the Tower, with text....

I believe was either scanned from " 6 Seconds In Dallas " , or one of Mark Lanes

books...not positive..wherever an early photo and comment.

I have neither at hand, next time I get to the book room... I will double check..

and pass along the info, if it can be of any help..

B.....

*************

I have done a search and the photo with the X, is marked, LaneX.....

so that is one of his....

The photo showing, the dotted line and the text reading the info, to

Bowers view being cut off.......is not Thompsons as far as I have

found..

A similar map is seen in 6 Seconds, though not the same, however, it does have the same

markings.....and LOS.....

Lee Bowers: " At the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves,

the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area..".6H288..

Just look at the photo, and draw your LOS....

BTW Miles : I do believe the Mod Kathy, mention the same to you about bringing

posts down some time ago.....in another long thread....That is what I recall, and

I am not going on a search for

such, though I could be in error, the point has been made and accepted....and I do

believe we appreciate that fact........

B.....

Hi Bernie,

I have done a search and the photo with the X, is marked, LaneX.....

so that is one of his....

Thx. Your mention of the marking of this Photo got me thinking. Bingo!

The marking "LaneX" was something I did a long time ago & this reminded me that, HOLY SMOKE!, this is my photo

which you must have saved from my old post way back on the "Close-up of Duncan MacRae's Knoll shooter" thread,

which I posted on Jul 17 2007, 11:38 PM.

See: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...0251&st=420

Glad you save my pics too, just as I save yours! Photo pack rats, huh?

What I did back then was to screen capture a YouTube RTJ video frame, print it, scan the print & add lines.

Here is the series:

The point I was making was that Lane's film did not accurately represent Bowers' comments, which were edited

for the film. Bowers' full testimony puts the two men not behind the fence, but down by the Hudson tree in the green oval area.

What was Lane doing?

Bernie, who is Millie?

Cheers

M

Edited August 28, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

The point I was making was that Lane's film did not accurately represent Bowers' comments, which were edited

for the film. Bowers' full testimony puts the two men not behind the fence, but down by the Hudson tree in the green oval area.

What was Lane doing?

Bernie, who is Millie?

Cheers

M

Lane wanted to be able to be present and ask additional questions to witnesses when the Commission questioned them, but his request was denied. In the 40 years since Lane's interviewing Bowers - I do not believe I have ever heard anyone claim what was posted above .... so why would one think that is? Did not Bowers say that an officer came up to the guy in the plaid coat following the assassination and didn't that officer (Joe Smith) say that the meeting occurred in the RR yard - I believe so! And didn't Bowers say that one man was up near the fence watching the motorcade come towards him while the other man was 10 feet or so away ... How many people does one see up by the Elm Street side of the fence in any of the assassination photos and films and how many people on the knoll side of the fence in any of the photos and films who looks to be wearing a plaid coat? There can be no substitution for actually studying the evidence rather than trying to be an arm-chair critic. Bowers said the man was still where he had been all along with the cop approached him. Smith said it happened in the RR yard, so how hard can that be to understand .... (Read below)

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

Bill Miller

Edited August 28, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

The point I was making was that Lane's film did not accurately represent Bowers' comments, which were edited

for the film. Bowers' full testimony puts the two men not behind the fence, but down by the Hudson tree in the green oval area.

What was Lane doing?

Bernie, who is Millie?

Cheers

M

Lane wanted to be able to be present and ask additional questions to witnesses when the Commission questioned them, but his request was denied. In the 40 years since Lane's interviewing Bowers - I do not believe I have ever heard anyone claim what was posted above .... so why would one think that is? Did not Bowers say that an officer came up to the guy in the plaid coat following the assassination and didn't that officer (Joe Smith) say that the meeting occurred in the RR yard - I believe so! And didn't Bowers say that one man was up near the fence watching the motorcade come towards him while the other man was 10 feet or so away ... How many people does one see up by the Elm Street side of the fence in any of the assassination photos and films and how many people on the knoll side of the fence in any of the photos and films who looks to be wearing a plaid coat? There can be no substitution for actually studying the evidence rather than trying to be an arm-chair critic. Bowers said the man was still where he had been all along with the cop approached him. Smith said it happened in the RR yard, so how hard can that be to understand .... (Read below)

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

Bill Miller

In the 40 years since Lane's interviewing Bowers - I do not believe I have ever heard anyone claim what was posted above .... so why would one think that is?

Why? Because you have not examined the record in the right places for 40 years.

Did not Bowers say that an officer came up to the guy in the plaid coat following the assassination

No. Bowers dis not say that. Cite your source.

and didn't that officer (Joe Smith) say that the meeting occurred in the RR yard

What meeting?

- I believe so!

Your belief is irrelevant. Cite sources.

And didn't Bowers say that one man was up near the fence watching the motorcade come towards him while the other man was 10 feet or so away ...

Did he? He said what he saw.

How many people does one see up by the Elm Street side of the fence in any of the assassination photos and films

You mean at the time of the gunshots?........... 3

and how many people on the knoll side of the fence in any of the photos and films who looks to be wearing a plaid coat?

1

There can be no substitution for actually studying the evidence rather than trying to be an arm-chair critic.

You are not suggesting that you are an arm-chair critic, are you? It would seem so.

Bowers said the man was still where he had been all along with the cop approached him.

What man? Bowers never said this. Again, you cite no source. Why not substantiate your claim? You CAN do that, can't you?

Smith said it

What is it? Nothing that Bowers said.

happened in the RR yard, so how hard can that be to understand ....

There is nothing to understand.

(Read below)

Glad to, but why?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I have seen this testimony several times.

What is your point? What are you trying to say?

Bill Miller

Have you decided to NOT scale GI Joe & his legs as you promised? WHY?

Edited August 28, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Chris Davidson]

Alan,

I'll post a few examples going forward.

If I change the aspect ratio, I will say so.

chris

Thanks for the time & effort Chris.

I can see you did those as honestly as you could.

Okay it's obvious that we could get various results depending on which photo we compare Moorman to.

It is still highly suggestive however since every modern photo shows real people at or near the wall over twice the size of GIJ.

If Bill Newman looked half the size as those woman, then that could help explain why GIJ is so small but it doesn't help that he appears large, it actually suggests that GIJ if a real person is standing a long long way back from the wall.

Just a close up of what Chris's Gif showed at the wall & I added in the size of GIJ.

Alan

Alan,

Next:

35mm(man on stairs) cloned into Moorman for comparison.

WRONG ADDRESS. See post 293 for correct link.

chris

Edited August 29, 2007 by Chris Davidson

[Bernice Moore]

Jack.....

B...

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s143/Be...ghttest2J.W.jpg

[Bill Miller]

Did not Bowers say that an officer came up to the guy in the plaid coat following the assassination

No. Bowers dis not say that. Cite your source.

Bowers talking about a police officer approaching one of the two men he testified about ....

Officer Smith talking about a man that he met in the RR yard ...

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

and didn't that officer (Joe Smith) say that the meeting occurred in the RR yard

What meeting?

Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars,

And didn't Bowers say that one man was up near the fence watching the motorcade come towards him while the other man was 10 feet or so away ...

Did he? He said what he saw.

Yes - in fact, Bowers said the two men he was talking about were along the fence between he and the mouth of the underpass. Hudson and the men on the steps are nowhere near the LOS Bowers was talking about.

How many people does one see up by the Elm Street side of the fence in any of the assassination photos and films

You mean at the time of the gunshots?........... 3

What kind of a question is this ... what did Bowers say about the men and their positions during the attack ... ???

and how many people on the knoll side of the fence in any of the photos and films who looks to be wearing a plaid coat?

1

Great, Miles ... now we are getting somewhere. Bowers spoke of a man who was 10 to 15 feet away from the other man. That the men were in line with the mouth of the underpass. So please show me the plaid coated man who was at the location that Bowers was talking about??????????

Bowers said the man was still where he had been all along with the cop approached him.

What man? Bowers never said this. Again, you cite no source. Why not substantiate your claim? You CAN do that, can't you?

Mr. BOWERS - He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL - Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS - I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Have you decided to NOT scale GI Joe & his legs as you promised? WHY?

I believe that I posted that I would not repeat the mistake that Duncan made. That instead I would attempt to get an image of Gordon Arnold and use it to scale the Gordon Arnold seen in the Badge Man images.

Bill Miller

Edited August 29, 2007 by Bill Miller