Alan Healy Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 (edited) Holland: ....one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand,[Where did he run to?] Where I saw the puff of smoke... ...and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there... Holland seems to be saying that the cop actually did jump the curb with his cycle and that the bike tipped over up the hill with the cop on it. Bowers independently said that a cop came 2/3s of the way up the hill before leaving his cycle. So I cannot see Bowers ever knowing anyone had trouble getting over the curb, so how would he be saving anyone of embarrassment? And anyone making it over one curb would also have to deal with the curb on the north end of the sidewalk, as well. So because Holland said the cop tipped over "up there" and Bowers said he saw a cop at a point that was most of the way up the embankment, then one has to wonder if at some point there really was a cycle that came up the incline Isn't it hard to imagine these railroad employees never discussed this amongst themselves? What about when they knew they were going to be interviewed for the WC? They started ignoring each other? Of course not! They got together a few times to refresh their memories & that's the only way the Bowers & Holland tales became as one regarding this super hero cop on a flying bike. Bowers never actually said he saw it happen, he just relayed the tale(don't take my word for it reader, go check it). That has & always will be, Hargis & Haygood.There is absolutely no reason to believe another cop tried the same trick as Haygood & also landed on his arse. This wasn't an episode of "Keystone Cops". If an officer hadn't seen Haygood dismounting his bike, then how would one know what to or not to try when jumping the curb? You're not making sense. Don't you mean, if another officer saw Haygood try to jump the curb he would know what not to do? Because if he saw Haygood dismounting his bike, he would only know what to do when dismounting ...... .... ... Hargis left his bike in the street & ran up the hill with his gun out & we all know why.From Hollands view, it would of looked like Hargis ran to the same area where he saw the smoke drifting out from the trees. That's the way it would have looked. Hargis in the road ............................ Yes he's just about to jump back on his bike & Haygood is just out of shot to our right in Bond4. What's your point? Haygood did not run to the smoke or the wall, he ran to the end of the overpass where it meets the fence. Gary Mack has said that the cop seen under the road sign is Haygood, so where is Hargis??? Riding through the underpass & out of sight most likely. Bond4(or Towner2) to Willis6 has at at least a ten second difference. Where would you be if you were trying to cut off a man you saw running into the car lot? Hargis said he jumped back on his bike to stop anyone heading westward across the tracks. You think he sat on his bike laughing at Haygood's antics or it fell to pieces when he went to ride away? Why Holland said he drove up the incline on his bike is a mystery, maybe, just maybe, he wanted to save that cop some embarassment by not telling everyone how foolish he looked when he tried to jump the curb & the bike ended up on top of him & if you check Haygoods testimony, he too conveniently left out the part where the bike won the fight. Maybe Haygood didn't mention losing a fight with a curb because he didn't try running over it. That would make sense actually. Bowers didn't see Haygood, Haygood didn't try to jump the curb & most likely, Holland didn't see smoke. Any other so called "witnesses" we can rule out of this mess? Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over. Of course he tried to jump the curb, what foolishness is this now? Oh wait, maybe he tried to jump the curb but it was "too high" for him to get over on foot! This really was an episode of KSC. Yes that's it! Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Nevermind. Edited October 28, 2007 by Alan Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 They got together a few times to refresh their memories & that's the only way the Bowers & Holland tales became as one regarding this super hero cop on a flying bike. Gary Mack has told me of several witnesses who had said a cop rode his bike up the knoll ... if what you say is true, then it appears that others must have been in on the conspiracy to not make Haygood look bad. If an officer hadn't seen Haygood dismounting his bike, then how would one know what to or not to try when jumping the curb.You're not making sense. Don't you mean, if another officer saw Haygood try to jump the curb he would know what not to do? Because if he saw Haygood dismounting his bike, he would only know what to do when dismounting Sure Alan, I agree. But the problem is that other witnesses have said that they saw a cop jump the curb and go up the embankment and if that is true, then it came later on ... and if it came a couple of minutes after Haygood parked his bike, then who ever really did go up the incline could not have been in a position to have ever seen Haygood standing up his bike. That's the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 You posted a crop from the blow-up where what used to be the wall's corner has been obliterated. I posted a crop from the drum scan(reduced in size obviously), where the corner is still intact & then, you start talking about something else. The blow-up you posted is the blurry & degraded one(we are still talking about the wall's corner right?). So it is your position that a Moorman crop that is sharp enough to show the edges of Badge Man's hairline and facial features is not as reliable as a copy print that is so blurred that one can no longer see any of the details in the print Jack used ... I'm not buying it. I also believe that if you can find a good clean print showing the wall that possibly the corners are rounded and the shade line starts not exactly on the center of the true corner, but rather more to the north of it. This is why I suggested you putting a stright edge on the wall and see where the two lines intersected so to see the true mid-point of the corner of the wall. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 They got together a few times to refresh their memories & that's the only way the Bowers & Holland tales became as one regarding this super hero cop on a flying bike. Gary Mack has told me of several witnesses who had said a cop rode his bike up the knoll ... if what you say is true, then it appears that others must have been in on the conspiracy to not make Haygood look bad. If an officer hadn't seen Haygood dismounting his bike, then how would one know what to or not to try when jumping the curb.You're not making sense. Don't you mean, if another officer saw Haygood try to jump the curb he would know what not to do? Because if he saw Haygood dismounting his bike, he would only know what to do when dismounting Sure Alan, I agree. But the problem is that other witnesses have said that they saw a cop jump the curb and go up the embankment and if that is true, then it came later on ... and if it came a couple of minutes after Haygood parked his bike, then who ever really did go up the incline could not have been in a position to have ever seen Haygood standing up his bike. That's the point I was making.[/b] I think I'm beginning to see your point Bill. It would be interesting to see who these other witnesses are that Gary mentions. I hope they all are not workmates of Holland. Okay, regarding Haygood's actual attempted jump of the curb & the position of Hargis. Maybe it was caught on film & cut out. Maybe to save the Dallas police some embarassment yes. @2:40 in the Atkins clip, you see Haygood turn to his right & approach the curb, just as he reaches it....... /cut! Coincidence, okay maybe it was just that. I have no reason to push that theory. I just checked POTP for thoughts from the photographer Atkins &, Trask(p375) thinks the cop is Haygood too(it has to be, I never knew &/or put the two together before). Watch it again to see Hargis riding away in the background, blocked from Couch's view & he must be long gone by the time of Willis6. Fwiw I can't find much on Atkins's observations at all. So if this is Haygood's run to the curb, it is no wonder he failed. Even though the film is in slow-mo', he must be doing around 5mph max. As for motorcycles that entered the scene after Haygood POTP lists two(Appendix p617). R.Smart & R.Dale. They are only mentioned in that book as being there on "the official list" & Trask thinks that's Smart in Bond7 beside the bus. I see no testimony for either of these men. Maybe they have been interviewed by an author? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 You posted a crop from the blow-up where what used to be the wall's corner has been obliterated.I posted a crop from the drum scan(reduced in size obviously), where the corner is still intact & then, you start talking about something else. The blow-up you posted is the blurry & degraded one(we are still talking about the wall's corner right?). So it is your position that a Moorman crop that is sharp enough to show the edges of Badge Man's hairline and facial features is not as reliable as a copy print that is so blurred that one can no longer see any of the details in the print Jack used ... I'm not buying it. Oh, Badgeman is a fact now? Why did you not say so before? I thought it was a possibilty, that turned into an impossiblity. As far as the wall's corner goes, I'll think I'll stick to the drumscan, it's gone in the blow-ups. It looks like the white blob is just west of the wall's corner & the shade line is the best indication for where that corner is because I just tried the straight-edge method on it & it suggests the corner is at the shade line. If you've tried it & had a different result, cite your source photo, it's obviously not the drumscan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Alan,Is Miller saying that there is zero photographic evidence that proves that a motorcycle rider did not go up the embankment such that Bowers' report of seeing this is invalidated? I believe that is what Miller is trying to say & for once I believe Miller is correct! Mercy. Miles, this is one of the few times I had to really think about what you wrote to understand it. If I have it right then I suppose we can all agree. There is a slim chance that one of the two & only motorcycle cops that came behind Haygood rid up the embankment. IMO it's highly unlikely & maybe if we could put a name to all the cops seen on bikes in the photos taken beyond the underpass, we could most likely rule it out. One thing I'm sure of thanks to this thread, Bowers would not have seen it, not unless it was Hargis who if.... when he went through the underpass he rid up the embankment on that far western side!! Now I need a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 So if this is Haygood's run to the curb, it is no wonder he failed.Even though the film is in slow-mo', he must be doing around 5mph max. I agree that the bike is going too slow and at an angle to the curb - I would think it would be very difficult to have kept the bike upright to even think of going over the curb. Then there would have been another feat to accomplish once on the sidewalk when it came to going up the curb where the soil ends at the north side of the sidewalk. Gary Mack would be the best chance in knowing if the Museum has the uncut version and what it shows. I'll call Gary tomorrow to see about the other witnesses he knows about who saw someone try to go up the incline and at what point in time were they saying they witnessed this. I have no problem in Bowers seeing the top of a cycle riders helmet if it made it up the better part of the embankment, but now way could he have seen Haygood down by the north curb on Elm Street. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 Oh, Badgeman is a fact now?Why did you not say so before? I thought it was a possibilty, that turned into an impossiblity. As far as the wall's corner goes, I'll think I'll stick to the drumscan, it's gone in the blow-ups. It looks like the white blob is just west of the wall's corner & the shade line is the best indication for where that corner is because I just tried the straight-edge method on it & it suggests the corner is at the shade line. I recall Gary Mack once telling me that when Jack worked on the Badge Man images - that Jack was very careful when balancing out the brightness and contrast so not to change the shapes of the borders of anything within the photo. Gary can correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I remember our conversation. Jack can maybe comment on this if he reads this post. I also seem to recall finding out long ago that the shade line, which I had always thought had marked the corner of the wall, was in fact not exactly right. I have it in my mind that I found other images that showed that the corner of the wall is rounded and the the sunlight illuminates the corner and that the shade line was then pushed a little more north. In distant images and those which are blurry, then the shade line appears to be right at the corner separating the two sides, but I am sure that I found that not to be the case. When I can get to my main computer, I will see if I can find some examples for I am also sure that I saved them. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 (edited) Is Miller saying that there is zero photographic evidence that proves that a motorcycle rider did not go up the embankment such that Bowers' report of seeing this is invalidated? So to try and make clear something that I thought seemed pretty clear already .... what I said was that by examining the photographic record as we know it - I could not find any evidence where a cycle went up the embankment. This would include seeing a cycle up on the embankment or any signs on the grass where a cycle may have left behind any evidence that it attempted to climb the embankment. Gary Mack, having a far greater amount of photographic evidence at his disposal than we do has said the same thing. This doesn't mean that it didn't happen or that there is not photographic evidence of it out there somewhere - it just means that no one has found it as of yet. The puzzling thing is that Gary Mack has told me that he is aware that other witnesses had also described witnessing the event. For more details on who these witnesses might be, then I would advise someone talking to Gary about this. Bill Miller Edited October 28, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 Here is one of the cops that came up to a point where Bowers could see him and its in the vicinity of where I believe the two me were that Bowers described to Ball. Look on the incline just to the right of the bus between the two trees near the fence. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Motorcycles...... B..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Motorcycles......B..... Good stuff B. Where you been? Missed ya. Here's some big lamp light. Did Bowers actually see more than we thought? Oh ho ho, it must be Miller Time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) Here's some big lamp light. Did Bowers actually see more than we thought? Oh ho ho, it must be Miller Time. Miles, Do you care to answer these two questions ..... 1) Do you know which side of the street that lamp is on? 2) Do you know if the lamps have been moved since the time of the assassination? Your less than detailed post makes me believe that you didn't know either. The entire forum has seen the LOS from where Hudson stood if he had turned and looked back towards the RR yard and yet you continue to say Bowers could see part of the stairs and how do you make such a claim ... you draw lines through dense tree tops and merely say it crosses over part of the steps. Groden and Mack both independently have said that Bowers couldn't see the steps, so one has to wonder why you'd continue to try and mislead people into thinking otherwise - can you justify such ludicrous behavior??? prop·a·gan·da noun Definition: 1. publicity to promote something: information put out by an organization or government to promote a policy, idea, or cause 2. misleading publicity: deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread Bill Miller Edited October 29, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Bill Miller wrote: [...] prop·a·gan·da noun Definition: 1. publicity to promote something: information put out by an organization or government to promote a policy, idea, or cause 2. misleading publicity: deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread Bill Miller ROTFLMFAO, the irony of it all!... Not fooling me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 David, your contributions to this thread have been immeasurable. I have somehow managed to list them all below. ROTFLMFAO, the irony of it all!... Not fooling me! Hi Gary! I see you there..... smile.gif your Baghdad jokes still suck, Willie -- hey, you go to work at the 6th floor Mausoleum yet? BTW, I think Miles intimidates you.... just an opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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