On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Robin Unger]

Edited for correction:

Edited November 1, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Bill Miller]

somewhat suspect? Removing tree in a recreation? I'd say that's alteration wouldn't you? That also brings to mind "credibility" not only of past work but future work.... Oh... but that does lead to evidence there, Bill! Now remember, GaryM is watching this thread very,very VERY closely.....

David, in all fairness to Dale - I don't think we can say that his illustration was supposed to be a re-creation, but rather just a creation where he left out a very important tree. To re-create would mean to me to make exact and Dale didn't really do that anymore than someone drawing a rough sketch of the same. And the only other work of Dale's that I am familiar with is his SBT 3D model and when that is overlaid onto the actual Zapruder frames - it is definitely off in places.

As far as 'GaryM is watching' ... that is some weird quirk nonsense you have that I am not interested in exploring.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

If you have proof of exactly who Hudson was talking to before the motorcade came by, who he sat next to & who repeatedly told him to lie down then please post it.

Alan,

Do the math ... how many seconds after JFK turns onto Elm Street before Willis takes his photo ... and after figuring that one out ... could there have been time for anyone else to have traded places with the guy seen next to Hudson - I see no logical basis for that to have occurred.

Also, I have always wanted to ask you something ... that photo of yourself attached to your post - is there a profile image that is supposed to go along with it, as well?

Bill Miller

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

So then, are you agreeing with Ken that the man is laying down behind the wall & shouting directions at Hudson from there?

Can you tell me where this theory came from?

That is not what I said in anything I have written ... once again you have gotten it wrong.

I can't make sense of your above paragraph.

Do you want to try again asking me a straight question or

am I right in thinking you do not care what I think?

I care about what you think when I can see some sort of basis and logical reasoning behind what you say. I do not however see how a man standing next to Hudson - standing like Hudson with his hands in his pockets - could be a conspirator just by turning and running away from the street where shots were obviously being aimed at.

Bill Miller

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

From Haygoods Testimony discussing Cancellare1 i believe this is the correct annotation.

Haygood now on the LEFT side. ?

Robin,

I believe that's McClain and Coursin in the Cancellare photo.

Remember, Wiegman films Haygood as Haygood passes by, which is AFTER he films the Newman's.

Which means Haygood hasn't reached Wiegman yet, and does not appear in the Bond photo.

chris

[Robin Unger]

Robin,

I believe that's McClain and Coursin in the Cancellare photo.

Remember, Wiegman films Haygood as Haygood passes by, which is AFTER he films the Newman's.

Which means Haygood hasn't reached Wiegman yet, and does not appear in the Bond photo.

chris

Chris

Yes you are right again.

I committed the fatal mistake of trying to go by memory instead of cross checking first.

I have corrected the annotation.

f-675 is Cancellare 1

Quote:

Mr. CORNWELL. And with respect to F-675, did you identify that as representing you and another officer on Elm Street?

Mr. McLAIN. Yes; that's myself and Sergeant Courson. Well, he is now sergeant; he was J.W. Courson at the time.

Mr. CORNWELL. So that last picture we just described, F-675, you identified as appearing to you to represent yourself and Officer Courson, and Courson was at an earlier point in the motorcade, riding behind you, also on the lefthand side?

Mr. McLAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. CORNWELL. Now, was it possible while riding in the motorcade for you to hear the broadcast from the speaker of a fellow officer who, for instance, was riding on the opposite side of the motorcade from you?

Mr. McLAIN. If he had his radio turned up, yes.

Mr. CORNWELL. All right. Looking again at F-675, that shows you and Officer Courson on Elm Street in approximately the vicinity of the grassy knoll, riding somewhat side by side. At that distance, would it have been possible for you to hear the speaker of Officer Courson's radio if it was broadcasting?

Mr. McLAIN. Very possible.

Mr. CORNWELL. And at the point in time that you heard Chief Curry state that he was going to Parkland Hospital, would it have then been possible that what you heard was the transmission from the speaker of Officer Courson and not in fact your own?

Mr. McLAIN. It could be possible

Edited November 1, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Bill Miller]

I think you may have not noticed something rather important.

Very important.

Vishnu: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

Speaking of destroying worlds ... this is written by Dale Myers who also seems to believe that the two men Bowers described to Ball were on the "west" end of the fence the last time Lee looked towards them before turning his attention to the caravan entering the plaza.

"Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

As I noted in my report on the “Badge Man” image, Bowers places the two men in an area that was "directly in line" with his view of the "mouth of the underpass," which, of course, would have been the area on the west end of the stockade fence, opposite the end where conspiracy theorists place Kennedy’s assassin(s)."

Edited November 1, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Don Bailey]

So Hudson was in the grass. The young man was up at the top of the stairs lying on the sidewalk behind the wall when he called out to Hudson to lie down. The redshirted man was not the young man.

Ken

I supposed that could be one theory, but I don't see much in the way of evidence to support it. As far as the red shirted man, his name has been said to be 'Jerry Williamson' ... not sure if I have spelled it correctly. This information came from someone saying they were Jerry's son when the son came up to Groden one day in the plaza. The son also said Jerry's wife (the son's mother) was still alive. At the time of the assassination - Jerry would have been in his mid-twenties as well. Groden does not seem to have a lot of memory on the details for he was busy as the two of them spoke back and forth. Groden has told me that the son has come through there on at least two occasions and I have asked Robert to get a contact number for the son so that someone can see if they can get some more data on record as to what Jerry had told his family and friends about that event.

Bill Miller

Bill,

When did Robert Groden tell you about this information concerning the red shirt man and why didn't you bring this up in our discussion on another topic? I've been reading this topic for a few months and lately it has become interesting to read. Although I do not agree with Miles about the Bowers testimony, he has brought up some good points about the 3 men on the steps. Hudson's testimony does not match what we see in the Nix film... to me, YOUR Hudson is pushing the red shirted man down to the ground telling him to get down. It's funny that the red shirt man is the only person of the three people on the steps that is clapping for the president... two of the three people on the steps were never identified. Something isn't kosher in Pickletown!!

Don

[Robin Unger]

Edited:

2 - Crops from Craig Lamsons original 6MB PNG Drumscan shown below.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Wider Crop:

[Robin Unger]

One more crop:

[Miles Scull]

One more crop:

Robin, many thanks for the crops.

Have you noticed Hudson's strange testimony?

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

When did Robert Groden tell you about this information concerning the red shirt man and why didn't you bring this up in our discussion on another topic? I've been reading this topic for a few months and lately it has become interesting to read. Although I do not agree with Miles about the Bowers testimony, he has brought up some good points about the 3 men on the steps. Hudson's testimony does not match what we see in the Nix film... to me, YOUR Hudson is pushing the red shirted man down to the ground telling him to get down. It's funny that the red shirt man is the only person of the three people on the steps that is clapping for the president... two of the three people on the steps were never identified. Something isn't kosher in Pickletown!!

Don

Something isn't kosher in Pickletown!!

This must be the understatement of the 20th Century!

Here's a MM frame that shows that Hudson's view of the limo will be blocked by Red Shirt Man. It's not a stretch to suppose that Hudson will notice that RSM is standing there a yard away from Hudson. Is RSM Hudson's "young fellow?" Why, otherwise, does Hudson never mention him in his testimony.

Miller's "young fellow," on the other hand, does not fall to the ground as everybody else does. No, he instantaneously dashes up the steps as if he had predetermined to run into gunfire. Why? Was his mission to confirm a fatality & then report that fatality so the teams could stand down?

Notice that Hudson does not look at nor follow Miller's "young fellow" as he runs up the steps or as he allegedly lies down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall. No, Hudson's eyes are always riveted on the limo. Therefore, how ever does Hudson know or even reconstruct in "hindsight" that Miller's "young fellow"

was ALREADY laying down one way on the sidewalk?-

[Don, see my post # 728 on this thread.]

Edited November 1, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

When did Robert Groden tell you about this information concerning the red shirt man and why didn't you bring this up in our discussion on another topic? I've been reading this topic for a few months and lately it has become interesting to read. Although I do not agree with Miles about the Bowers testimony, he has brought up some good points about the 3 men on the steps. Hudson's testimony does not match what we see in the Nix film... to me, YOUR Hudson is pushing the red shirted man down to the ground telling him to get down. It's funny that the red shirt man is the only person of the three people on the steps that is clapping for the president... two of the three people on the steps were never identified. Something isn't kosher in Pickletown!!

Don

Robert had only recently told me of who the red shirted man was. As far as people clapping their hands - there were many people who didn't clap their hands such as the Newman's, Jean Hill. Millican, and the list could go on and on. Hudson and the man next to him merely had their hands in their pockets or so it appears. As far as anyone pushing Hudson down or visa-versa ... I have not a clue where you get that notion.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

was ALREADY laying down one way on the sidewalk?[/color][/b]-

Yeah Miles, shame on Hudson for not merely sticking to what is only seen on film before the camera pans away. You see, someone must have forgotten to tell Hudson that he couldn't testify to what happened when the cameras weren't on him. Stupid Hudson - how dare he!!!

Hudson code talk: The 'sidewalk' would be considered the flat part of the landing. That sidewalk on the landing appears to be where the red shirted man was headed just prior to going out of the Nix frame as Orville continued to pan west as he tracked the limo.

Notice that Hudson does not look at nor follow Miller's "young fellow" as he runs up the steps or as he allegedly lies down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall. No, Hudson's eyes are always riveted on the limo. Therefore, how ever does Hudson know or even reconstruct in "hindsight" that Miller's "young fellow"

It's little wonder why you make so many mistakes when it comes to what you post concering the interpretation of what witnesses had said pertaining to certain things. It wasn't 'Miller' who testified that the man sitting next to Hudson and who eventually stood up with Hudson was a 'young fellow' ... it was Hudson who said it. The other fellow or red shirted man, said to be a man by the name of Williamson, was also a young man at the time of the assassination. I suspect that Hudson heard a young man telling him to get down and just assumed it was the same man who had been standing next to him. There is no photographic record showing just how long Hudson remained standing as the limo went through the underpass, so by the time he had turned around he may have thought the man who had stood net to him earlier had just fled the scene. This of course, is only speculation as to what may have happened so to account for what Hudson thought which could explain why he said what he did.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

So then, are you agreeing with Ken that the man is laying down behind the wall & shouting directions at Hudson from there?

Can you tell me where this theory came from?

That is not what I said in anything I have written ... once again you have gotten it wrong.

There are two men next to Hudson at different points in time, Hudson talks of only one in his testimony.

So, we either chose one of those men to be "the" man, or we must conclude that Hudson got it wrong & in actual fact had dealings with both of them.

If like yourself & Ken, we choose the older of the two, then we must believe he told Hudson to "lay down" & in order to do that that man had to have lay on the ground behind the wall shouting instructions to Hudson.

You can't have him running back in the car lot & laying down at the same time.

If you think about it, we really don't know what he did after we lose him in Nix, he's still behind the wall & running at that point & that's about all we can say for sure.

He may of kept on moving or dropped to the ground there.

I have always chose the red shirted guy because it just makes more sense to me.

He jumped up next to EH after the shots told Emmett to get down & lay down himself, the other guy, the conspiritor, ran away.

So, if the same guy who told Hudson to lay down was the same one who he talked to before the shooting, then yes, some place switching occured.

One possible scenario.

The limo' comes into view & Red Shirt moves down a few steps for a closer look, the older, taller guy comes down from behind the wall & stands next to Emmett.

Either that or, Hudson spoke to both men.

Shame he's not around to clear it up for us.

I can't make sense of your above paragraph.

Do you want to try again asking me a straight question or

am I right in thinking you do not care what I think?

I care about what you think when I can see some sort of basis and logical reasoning behind what you say. I do not however see how a man standing next to Hudson - standing like Hudson with his hands in his pockets - could be a conspirator just by turning and running away from the street where shots were obviously being aimed at.

Firstly,

having his hands in his pockets does not rule him out as an accomplice, an assassin maybe but he's still involved as part of the hit team, you would expect an accomplice to look more suspicious? How? Shaking his fist at JFK or speaking into a walkie-talkie or something?

Why do I think he's suspicious you ask?

Oh that's right, you didn't ask but anyway,

It's the manner in which he runs away yes, not simply because he ran but how he did it.

Lightening fast & without looking where or what he was running into or indeed, ducking down like someone in fear of their safety.

Yes that's all I have apart from the area he ran towards, the car-lot where I still believe at least one shot came from.

Hargis thought he was suspicious enough to get off his bike & chase after him, then get back on his bike to block him off further west & oh that's right, Hargis did not mention seeing anyone behind the wall which is where he ran to look over.

Hargis thought the last shot came from the wall, that's why he immeadiately looked that way & he would of no doubt seen the man running up the steps.

Jean Hill too, the only other person to mention a man fleeing the scene, thought he was connected to the shooting somehow.

I think it's ludicrous that you find this man's actions not in least bit curious.

What kind of a detective rules the man out based on the filmsy evidence we have?

At least admit that you would want to question him.

If the best you can come up with for a sign of innocent behaviour, is the fact that he had his hands in his pockets during the shooting, then I'll have to ignore it because it tells me nothing.