On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Bill Miller]

Oh oh

Hudson wouldn't be the only witness who thought they heard shots after the kill shot.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Oh oh

Hudson wouldn't be the only witness who thought they heard shots after the kill shot.

Bill Miller

If Hudson is standing at Z-413, then he has, what, 4 or 3 seconds to FALL DOWN & then to hear the third shot.

What can it all mean, I mean?

[Bill Miller]

If Hudson is standing at Z-413, then he has, what, 4 or 3 seconds to FALL DOWN & then to hear the third shot.

What can it all mean, I mean?

It could mean that Hudson heard backfires from the Harley's coming through the plaza after the kill shot to JFK and mistook them for gunfire shots, it could mean that in hindsight ... Hudson seemed to recall another shot about the time he was starting to get down, it could mean that in the state of shock he must have been in that like Jackie not recalling that she even climbed out onto the trunk of the limo that Hudson got mixed up on the timing of the event, which is not uncommon with people who were immediately placed in high stressed situations only then to later recall the event to the best of their ability.

Bill Miller

[Don Bailey]

Ok, so someone poured out a full 16 oz. bottle of coke? It does not make sense. If you knock over a bottle of coke not all of the contents will spill out unless you hold it upside down.

Where is the empty coke bottle in the Couch film of the steps??

It's a puddle of blood!!

Don

No one said that a full bottle of Coke was poured out. And to be honest, I could have poured a cup of coffee out on the sidewalk and it made a pattern as large as that wet spot seen in the Couch film, which BTW is on the sidewalk and not the steps. And I really find it hard to swallow that anyone tasted blood for only an idiot would have done something like that and if they were that dumb, then it would explain why no one else supported that puddle as being blood.

Now, seeing how you are in a detective frame of mind regardless of how gullible you may appear, let us say that someone had been shot in the leg as you alleged in a previous response ... how long would you estimate someone needed to stand in one spot to have that much blood get passed the clothing of the pants - socks - and shoes ... in order to form a puddle that large onto the sidewalk? And then you want people top believe that someone who lost that much blood was able to then pass 100's of witnesses and not have anyone seeing his blood soaked clothing. It sounds to me that you put as much time into this one as you did the three men on the steps fiasco.

And what about the bottle? Didn't Sitzman say something about hearing a bottle thrown and being broken during the shooting ... I believe she did. But if I follow your way of thinking ... for a soda to have been poured out onto the ground, then there must be a bottle laying next to the puddle ... now is that what you are implying? I'm not buying that one.

Bill Miller

A 16 ounce cup of coffee poured out on the sidewalk would create that pattern but if you were to break, smash or drop a bottle of coke it would make a totally different pattern then what you see in the Couch film. Plus, it would leave glass fragments within that area and no witness spoke of stepping on glass when they were on the sidewalk.

So you want to discredit Mulkey because he tasted the blood... how lame is that excuse? Guess you've never heard the saying... "If something smells like ****, tastes like ****, then it's ****!

Coley was threatened and was forced into hiding... whenever a witness is threatened it makes me think they are telling the truth.

Don

[Don Bailey]

Ok, so someone poured out a full 16 oz. bottle of coke? It does not make sense. If you knock over a bottle of coke not all of the contents will spill out unless you hold it upside down.

Where is the empty coke bottle in the Couch film of the steps??

It's a puddle of blood!!

Don

No one said that a full bottle of Coke was poured out. And to be honest, I could have poured a cup of coffee out on the sidewalk and it made a pattern as large as that wet spot seen in the Couch film, which BTW is on the sidewalk and not the steps. And I really find it hard to swallow that anyone tasted blood for only an idiot would have done something like that and if they were that dumb, then it would explain why no one else supported that puddle as being blood.

Now, seeing how you are in a detective frame of mind regardless of how gullible you may appear, let us say that someone had been shot in the leg as you alleged in a previous response ... how long would you estimate someone needed to stand in one spot to have that much blood get passed the clothing of the pants - socks - and shoes ... in order to form a puddle that large onto the sidewalk? And then you want people top believe that someone who lost that much blood was able to then pass 100's of witnesses and not have anyone seeing his blood soaked clothing. It sounds to me that you put as much time into this one as you did the three men on the steps fiasco.

And what about the bottle? Didn't Sitzman say something about hearing a bottle thrown and being broken during the shooting ... I believe she did. But if I follow your way of thinking ... for a soda to have been poured out onto the ground, then there must be a bottle laying next to the puddle ... now is that what you are implying? I'm not buying that one.

Bill Miller

A 16 ounce cup of coffee poured out on the sidewalk would create that pattern but if you were to break, smash or drop a bottle of coke it would make a totally different pattern then what you see in the Couch film. Plus, it would leave glass fragments within that area and no witness spoke of stepping on glass when they were on the sidewalk.

So you want to discredit Mulkey because he tasted the blood... how lame is that excuse? Guess you've never heard the saying... "If something smells like ****, tastes like ****, then it's ****!

Coley was threatened and was forced into hiding... whenever a witness is threatened it makes me think they are telling the truth.

Don

[Miles Scull]

It's a puddle of blood!!

Don

If Hudson is standing at Z-413, then he has, what, 4 or 3 seconds to FALL DOWN & then to hear the third shot.

What can it all mean, I mean?

It could mean that Hudson heard backfires from the Harley's coming through the plaza after the kill shot to JFK and mistook them for gunfire shots, it could mean that in hindsight ... Hudson seemed to recall another shot about the time he was starting to get down, it could mean that in the state of shock he must have been in that like Jackie not recalling that she even climbed out onto the trunk of the limo that Hudson got mixed up on the timing of the event, which is not uncommon with people who were immediately placed in high stressed situations only then to later recall the event to the best of their ability.

Bill Miller

You make excuses for Hudson, but you are saying that he lost his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER - You were standing down here where we put the "X"?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there isn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a renactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Hudson was still standing when the limo was well beyond the steps. According to the Zapruder frame captues of Hudson, Hudson went down like a lead balloon about 3 seconds before the limo went into the undeprass.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

But Hudson was not looking. You cannot see his face looking up ELM is this crop:

Immediately, the lamppost will block Hudson's alleged LOS:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. HUDSON - He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. LIEBELER - Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. HUDSON - Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. LIEBELER - If you don't think the Presidentgot hit by the first shot and yoy say he got hit in the head with the second shot -

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do

Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head like that?

Mr. HUDSON - Well as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And you aren't able to say from your own observation when he was hit in the neck?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - If he was hit in the neck.

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Could the car have actually been down here where it is in the photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street - this is Elm Street that runs down here - right here - could the car have been that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down.

[Alan Healy]

What I really came for was to post this crop for you, from Muchmore where I believe you can see both Hudson and RSM......ta....

B..

That's a crop from Bond5 Bernice, I recognised the woman with her arm aloft(most likely she's encouraging a friend of hers to follow her up the incline & there's that b&w footage(Darnell?) that shows another black woman with a child crossing the street shortly after), anyway it's a keeper, thanks again.

As for the other, always interesting & never ignored.

Thinking about what Chris said regarding RSM's movements again, I actually thought in the past that if he was the one that told Hudson to lay down, he was probably trying to stop Emmett from following RAM up behind the wall, which is what EH does appear to have half a mind to do in those last frames.

Was one or even both men involved with the hit team & forced to come out in the open to "guard" or distract the groundkeeper or, where they just innocent spectators?

Is that not a natural thought from a CT who still believes(sorry Ashton) at least one shot came from the GK?

They may well have been innocent but if I had had the chance they would of got a severe grilling from me & a thorough background check just for being so near to that area.

As for RAM, if he was the Industrial Bullevade fellow, he may of had trouble parking in the RR yard because it is not a free parking lot, it was all sectioned off with attendants.

Anyway, can you imagine Bowers seeing a man or two, run back in the lot, jump in a vehicle a drive away without reporting it, or shall we say, without it appearing in the official reports?

I would hope that most of us would say yes.

[Alan Healy]

There is no way of knowing which way Hudson is looking in those Zapruder frames is there?

The position of his body in the last frames he is seen in Nix, suggests to me that he is not tracking the limo at all in Zapruder but instead is actually turning his head towards the the camera which would be in line with where his body was facing.

As I now look at it closer, I can actually see the front of his cap turning towards the camera.

You are the first person who has ever said this, Alan. When Hudson goes off camera in the Nix film ... his body is still turned away and he his looking over his shoulder. In the Zframes he can either turn his head extremely far much like an owl or he has now turned his body so to be facing the limo. As far as which way his head is turning - it looks to me to be tracking the limo by turning from east to west (left to right) in perfect timing with the advancement of the limo.

Bill

[atachment=13157:L___Huds...ead_turn.gif]

Okay.

Hudson was wearing a cap, a smart flat cap, that is clearly seen in Nix.

Those frames in Zapruder make it look like he's wearing a helmet.

It's the leaves in the bush that are doing that.

I think he is turning to his left(towards Zapruder), not watching the limo.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...man/Zhudson.gif

[Alan Healy]

That is why he moved to the grass, rather than staying on the stairs.

Miles,

for me, there's no way I'd be lying down on those steps for too long when there's some nice soft grass just one body roll away.

I'd get down first then maneuver myself to the grass & even make room for another dude.

[Alan Healy]

Regarding someone other than Haygood & Hargis on the knoll.

Alan,

I have seen every Elm Street film and photo known to exist, including the full Jimmy Darnell film. The only two cops confirmed by pictures that are known to have dismounted and run up on the grass were Hargis and Haygood. I am not aware of any reports by officers - other than those two - who claimed to have done that. Nor can I account for why several witnesses reported seeing a motorcycle on the grass.

I would think that, because of the relatively steep slope, no one would have attempted to do so. Therefore, the witnesses must have misinterpreted something. For example, Bowers may have seen Haygood's helmet briefly and assumed the officer under it was still on his motorcycle.

This just reinforces the well-known warning from trained investigators to be very skeptical of eyewitness accounts. What is known is that no pictures confirm such an event, nor do they show tire tracks anywhere on the grass either north or south of Elm Street.

Gary

Thanks to Gary, much appreciated input & sorry again about the C"Ouch" thing.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Bill Miller]

A 16 ounce cup of coffee poured out on the sidewalk would create that pattern but if you were to break, smash or drop a bottle of coke it would make a totally different pattern then what you see in the Couch film. Plus, it would leave glass fragments within that area and no witness spoke of stepping on glass when they were on the sidewalk.

So you want to discredit Mulkey because he tasted the blood... how lame is that excuse? Guess you've never heard the saying... "If something smells like ****, tastes like ****, then it's ****!

Coley was threatened and was forced into hiding... whenever a witness is threatened it makes me think they are telling the truth.

Don

Well you see all those people who went up the walkway - right? ....... ask yourself why there were not hoards of witnesses telling of seeing this pool of blood? Flynn took the time to photograph a sack lunch on the bench just a few feet away and yet wouldn't take a photo of a large pool of alleged blood. Why do you think that is??? And it seems to me that if someone stood there and bled that much blood, then there should have been marks of blood from everywhere their foot stepped leading away and yet no mention of it that I have seen.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

A 16 ounce cup of coffee poured out on the sidewalk would create that pattern but if you were to break, smash or drop a bottle of coke it would make a totally different pattern then what you see in the Couch film. Plus, it would leave glass fragments within that area and no witness spoke of stepping on glass when they were on the sidewalk.

So you want to discredit Mulkey because he tasted the blood... how lame is that excuse? Guess you've never heard the saying... "If something smells like ****, tastes like ****, then it's ****!

Coley was threatened and was forced into hiding... whenever a witness is threatened it makes me think they are telling the truth.

Don

Well you see all those people who went up the walkway - right? ....... ask yourself why there were not hoards of witnesses telling of seeing this pool of blood? Flynn took the time to photograph a sack lunch on the bench just a few feet away and yet wouldn't take a photo of a large pool of alleged blood. Why do you think that is??? And it seems to me that if someone stood there and bled that much blood, then there should have been marks of blood from everywhere their foot stepped leading away and yet no mention of it that I have seen.

Bill Miller

Anemia, of course.

Ever hear of anemia?

[Bill Miller]

You make excuses for Hudson, but you are saying that he lost his mind.

I don't think Hudson lost his mind any more than Jackie lost hers when she couldn't recall having climbed out on the trunk of the car ... or when another witness said that the president tried to stand up in the car ... or when Holland said that he 'immediately' left the underpass to run into the RR yard. I do think however, that when someone tries to make something out of nothing that maybe they have lost their mind.

Hudson was still standing when the limo was well beyond the steps. According to the Zapruder frame captues of Hudson, Hudson went down like a lead balloon about 3 seconds before the limo went into the undeprass.

Miles, how many Zframes did it take for Jackie to rise out of her seat "like a ton of bricks"?

[Miles Scull]

You make excuses for Hudson, but you are saying that he lost his mind.

I don't think Hudson lost his mind any more than Jackie lost hers when she couldn't recall having climbed out on the trunk of the car ... or when another witness said that the president tried to stand up in the car ... or when Holland said that he 'immediately' left the underpass to run into the RR yard. I do think however, that when someone tries to make something out of nothing that maybe they have lost their mind.

Hudson was still standing when the limo was well beyond the steps. According to the Zapruder frame captues of Hudson, Hudson went down like a lead balloon about 3 seconds before the limo went into the undeprass.

Miles, how many Zframes did it take for Jackie to rise out of her seat "like a ton of bricks"?

We are talking about Hudson.

Don't try to deflect the focus.

Hudson was as cracked as the Liberty Bell & sounded as false.

[Bill Miller]

Miles, how many Zframes did it take for Jackie to rise out of her seat "like a ton of bricks"?

We are talking about Hudson.

Don't try to deflect the focus.

Miles, you say things as fact when you have no evidence to support it. You claim Hudson couldn't get down in three seconds (still not sure how you get that exact time frame) and yet Jackie rises out of her seat from a sitting position to climbing onto the back of the trunk in three seconds. Now most people should know its far easier to get down than to get up. When Jackie's efforts is used as an example - all you do is complain that we are talking about Hudson and not Jackie as if you don't wish to address any evidence that shows your assumption is flawed.

And let's say Hudson thought he heard a shot as the limo was entering the underpass and he was only in the process of getting down, but in his mind he got that part off a bit as he was trying to recall a minute detail at a much later date - so what! You tend to find the most ridiculous insignificant things to try to make more out of them than what they really are. A moderator said this to me about you one time and I quote, "at times he sticks to rather insignificant minute details, and argues about these for pages and pages." When you needed Hudson to support something that you thought was accurate, then you had no trouble citing Hudson even in a twisted sort of way. Once it was shown that even Dale Myers didn't buy that Hudson and the men with him were the two men Bowers told Ball about trash ... now Hudson is supposed to be cracked (as you put it). I'd say that Hudson made more sense under stress than you have here in this thread.

For example: In your post #816, you created a caption that reads ......

But once again you misstated what Hudson had said. Hudson did not say that he was laying on the ground when he heard the third shot. Instead Hudson said and I quote, "when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground".

Bill Miller

Edited November 5, 2007 by Bill Miller