On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Alan Healy]

If you have proof of exactly who Hudson was talking to before the motorcade came by, who he sat next to & who repeatedly told him to lie down then please post it.

Alan,

Do the math ... how many seconds after JFK turns onto Elm Street before Willis takes his photo ... and after figuring that one out ... could there have been time for anyone else to have traded places with the guy seen next to Hudson - I see no logical basis for that to have occurred.

Also, I have always wanted to ask you something ... that photo of yourself attached to your post - is there a profile image that is supposed to go along with it, as well?

If you want to take Hudson literally & specifically, when he said - "they" stood up as the limo turned onto Elm -, then that would not leave much time for switching of positions agreed.

However, taking Hudson literally also means there was only one guy on the steps with him.

Why would you want to do that?

Tell me where the older guy goes to in your scenario if you don't mind.

If he didn't tell Hudson to lie down from behind the wall, then what?

As for my photo..... what?

No I don't, didn't you see that when you looked "dectective"?

[Alan Healy]

Here's a MM frame that shows that Hudson's view of the limo will be blocked by Red Shirt Man. It's not a stretch to suppose that Hudson will notice that RSM is standing there a yard away from Hudson. Is RSM Hudson's "young fellow?" Why, otherwise, does Hudson never mention him in his testimony.

Miller's "young fellow," on the other hand, does not fall to the ground as everybody else does. No, he instantaneously dashes up the steps as if he had predetermined to run into gunfire. Why? Was his mission to confirm a fatality & then report that fatality so the teams could stand down?

Notice that Hudson does not look at nor follow Miller's "young fellow" as he runs up the steps or as he allegedly lies down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall. No, Hudson's eyes are always riveted on the limo. Therefore, how ever does Hudson know or even reconstruct in "hindsight" that Miller's "young fellow" [/color] [/b]

was ALREADY laying down one way on the sidewalk?-

I guess the answer is Miles,

no one knows why Hudson did not mention two men or,

could it be, he never mentioned one guy running away, much like Sitzman never mentioned a man running past her FOV, Hargis as well & maybe Bowers too.

Could it be they were all scared as to what that would the words "running man" would have implied?

Of course if DC.Miller was on the case they need not have worried because as we know, he would of told them all the man was simpy a spectator, nothing more.

[Ken Rheberg]

Who told Emmett Hudson to “lay down” after the shots?

Let Hudson’s statements to the FBI and WC plus the photographic record speak for themselves.

1. While examining the Moorman photo in the Dallas Times Herald with the FBI on 11/25/63, Hudson mentioned BOTH of the other two men who were standing with him on the grassy knoll stairway. He told the FBI that one of them worked “somewhere on INDUSTRIAL BOULEVARD in Dallas, Texas.” This puts a stamp on one of the two men and eliminates everyone else in Dealey Plaza. The man who worked on Industrial Boulevard was, without question, one of the other two men seen with him in the Moorman photo. Hudson just didn’t identify which of the two men it was at that time to the FBI.

2. In his WC testimony on 7/22/64, Hudson would identify which of the two men Industrial Boulevard Man was. Hudson told the WC that “a young fellow. . . about in his late twenties” who “worked over there on INDUSTRIAL” sat next to him on the steps. Both then stood up when the motorcade turned from Houston onto Elm. Hudson said that this man was to Hudson’s left. So the “young fellow,” “Industrial Boulevard Man,” was the man seen to the left of Hudson in the Moorman photo.

3. Hudson went on to tell the WC that this “young fellow” who had sat and stood next to him, i.e. Industrial Boulevard Man to Hudson’s left, then yelled out for Hudson to lay down because “somebody is shooting the President.” However, Industrial Boulevard Man was no longer standing next to him when he yelled this out to Hudson. He was “ALREADY laying down.” And where was he laying down? Not on the steps. Not on the “BROAD PLACE” which was how Hudson described the landing above where they had sat and stood. No, Industrial Boulevard Man was laying down “on the SIDEWALK.” And which sidewalk was that? Only one. The sidewalk where he can be seen running up to in the Nix film. The one at the top of the stairs between the wall and the picket fence. He took cover there before yelling back to Hudson to “lay down.”

Ken

Edited November 1, 2007 by Ken Rheberg

[Miles Scull]

Let Hudson’s statements to the FBI and WC plus the photographic record speak for themselves.

I guess the answer is Miles,

no one knows why Hudson did not mention two men or,

could it be, he never mentioned one guy running away, much like Sitzman never mentioned a man running past her FOV, Hargis as well & maybe Bowers too.

Could it be they were all scared as to what that would the words "running man" would have implied?

Of course if DC.Miller was on the case they need not have worried because as we know, he would of told them all the man was simpy a spectator, nothing more.

I think it's ludicrous that you find this man's actions not in least bit curious.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time,

Hudson is clearly saying that at the time of the first shot, that at that time which Hudson qualifies & defines as, using his words, as the (that) "present time,"...that at that period of time (the 'present') Hudson did not realize that the first shot was a (gun) shot.

If something happens in a time continuum, Hudson uses his qualifier "present time"as his method of associating two events into a simultaneity.

and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm,

Hudson clearly means that after the first shot & its "present time" had passed, Hudson was now entering a new "present time" which will begin with & encompass the second shot.

and you see,

Yes, we see, Emmett.

I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you`

Tell us what, Emmett? Use your own words after your own fashion.

- this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time,

"present time"

So, at this "present time" the same "young fellow" who had sat & stood up with Hudson is now saying "lay down, Mister."

he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk,

A new, implied "present time." No. The "young fellow" was ALREADY laying down one way on the sidewalk.

so I just laid down

Of course! Why not? Hudson is implying, clearly, that the sight of the "young fellow" lying at his feet drew him down to the grass as well as the dawning realization of sudden & PRESENT danger.

over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Alan,

Hudson's language is clear.

Red Shirt Man is the "young fellow."

Unless, Arnie, hiding behind the live Oak, was doing a little ventriloquism voice throwing?

[Robin Unger]

If i had heard the sound of gunfire, and had just seen kennedy's head explode, i too would have bolted up the steps for cover behind the wall.

I don't see that as suspicious.

The guy over near Bothun and Altgens had the same reaction when he dove to the ground, only he had no wall to hide behind.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Bill Miller]

If like yourself & Ken, we choose the older of the two, then we must believe he told Hudson to "lay down" & in order to do that that man had to have lay on the ground behind the wall shouting instructions to Hudson.

You can't have him running back in the car lot & laying down at the same time.

My dad had a bird that could reason this out better than you are doing! First of all - who and the hell was the older of the two men with Hudson??? Hudson guessed that the man standing next to him waiting for the caravan was in his mid-twenties. Williamson, the red shirted man down below was in his mid-twenties. So who is older between the two - you can't say - no one can.

This is one possible scenerio: Hudson had his attention on JFK so much that he didn't even notice Connally sitting two feet in front of Kennedy. By doing this, Emmett obviously took his attention off the man that ran away and must have assumed the red shirted man calling to him to get down was still the man who had been standing beside him all along. Emmett is last seen on Zapruder's film tracking the limo.

So its not the same man running into the RR yard and staying near Hudson at the same time. It is two young men who were on the steps with Hudson. Either Hudson refers to them both as young fellows or he thought the voice he heard telling him to get down was the original man that had been standing next to him.

Occam's Razor: one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

[Alan Healy]

If i had heard the sound of gunfire, and had just seen kennedy's head explode, i too would have bolted up the steps for cover behind the wall.

I don't see that as suspicious.

The guy over near Bothun and Altgens had the same reaction when he dove to the ground, only he had no wall to hide behind.

Robin,

I appreciate your honest opinion always but, I seriously doubt you would of reacted in the same manner as he did, unless someone was shooting directly at you from Elm St.

Even then, you would have ducked a little.

It's not the fact that he runs on it's own it's the way he does it & I personally cannot compare it to the other man you mentioned who we see dive down in the Zfilm, it's a totally different act.

The man on the steps is not in fear of his safety at all. IMHO obviously &

I still feel he ran away into the car-lot because there is no sign of him ducking or preparing to dive at all.

The superior copy of Nix that Groden has may clear it up.

If he is still standing tall as he goes out of shot in that copy, then it's most likely he kept running because, he is well behind the wall already at that time.

[Bill Miller]

If i had heard the sound of gunfire, and had just seen kennedy's head explode, i too would have bolted up the steps for cover behind the wall.

I don't see that as suspicious.

The guy over near Bothun and Altgens had the same reaction when he dove to the ground, only he had no wall to hide behind.

Not only would I have bolted, but I would have kept running right out into the RR yard and behind the colonnade. Anyone knowing that shots were being fired at the limo would have probably wanted to get back from the street. Newman grabbed his son and hit the ground away from the street. The red shirted man moved up the steps and away from the street. Ernest Brandt has said that he ran for a tree up near the colonnade (Ernest is alleged to have stood at the Elm Street curb). Maybe some people don't know that even stray and/or ricocheted bullets can kill.

Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

1. While examining the Moorman photo in the Dallas Times Herald with the FBI on 11/25/63, Hudson mentioned BOTH of the other two men .......

You must have read another, more detailed version of that interview Ken because in the easily obtainable official FBI statement Hudson mentions only the one man.

Maybe I misssed it so please point to where he spoke of "both men".

[Alan Healy]

If like yourself & Ken, we choose the older of the two, then we must believe he told Hudson to "lay down" & in order to do that that man had to have lay on the ground behind the wall shouting instructions to Hudson.

You can't have him running back in the car lot & laying down at the same time.

My dad had a bird that could reason this out better than you are doing!

Was it a vulture by any chance? That would explain a lot!

First of all - who and the hell was the older of the two men with Hudson??? Hudson guessed that the man standing next to him waiting for the caravan was in his mid-twenties. Williamson, the red shirted man down below was in his mid-twenties. So who is older between the two - you can't say - no one can.

No one can say the older man ran into the RR yard either but we do & always have without a second thought, until now.

Of course he was older than the RSM, mid-late thirties no younger, I'm saying it &

I'll keep calling the younger guy "red shirt man" if you don't mind.

This is one possible scenerio: Hudson had his attention on JFK so much that he didn't even notice Connally sitting two feet in front of Kennedy. By doing this, Emmett obviously took his attention off the man that ran away and must have assumed the red shirted man calling to him to get down was still the man who had been standing beside him all along. Emmett is last seen on Zapruder's film tracking the limo.

So its not the same man running into the RR yard and staying near Hudson at the same time. It is two young men who were on the steps with Hudson. Either Hudson refers to them both as young fellows or he thought the voice he heard telling him to get down was the original man that had been standing next to him.

Doesn't work for me but if your happy with it, that's fine.

Your going to have to explain how you know the older guy ran into the car-lot & didn't dive down behind the wall at some point though.

[Bill Miller]

No one can say the older man ran into the RR yard either but we do & always have without a second thought, until now.

Of course he was older than the RSM, mid-late thirties no younger, I'm saying it &

I'll keep calling the younger guy "red shirt man" if you don't mind.

Alan, where do you get the notion that the man who was standing next to Hudson was in his mid to late thirties and no younger? I mean, are you just making that up or do you have some gift at looking at poor fuzzy images and can tell how old people are ... tell me the secret!

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right

Doesn't work for me but if your happy with it, that's fine.

Your going to have to explain how you know the older guy ran into the car-lot & didn't dive down behind the wall at some point though.

The witnesses to the assassination said that the motorcade was so noisy that many people had trouble telling the gunfire from cycle backfires. I was there on the 35th anniversary when the replica limo came down the street with just four cycles flanking it and it was deafening. So it seems like a stretch for me to buy that the man who fled up the stairs could somehow be heard by Hudson telling him to lay down ... and Hudson does say the man was getting down on the sidewalk which appears to be what I see just as the two of them (Hudson and the red shirted man) are going out of sight in Nix's film.

And I will say this again - anyone who says they can tell the age difference between the two guys on the steps is full of himself. The images of them two men aren't good enough to even tell what race they were, let alone who was the younger one. That is why I think you're just screwing around when you say the one man was in his mid to late thirties when Hudson himself who had a crystal clear view of the guy from only inches away said he was in his mid to late twenties.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

Hudson's language is clear.

Red Shirt Man is the "young fellow."

Thank you Miles,

I tend to agree with your analysis of Hudson's testimony but I think I need to go back & read your

main reason for wanting to pin-point who Hudson was talking about now.

I hope it wasn't something to do with "who Bowers saw".....

[Alan Healy]

No one can say the older man ran into the RR yard either but we do & always have without a second thought, until now.

Of course he was older than the RSM, mid-late thirties no younger, I'm saying it &

I'll keep calling the younger guy "red shirt man" if you don't mind.

Alan, where do you get the notion that the man who was standing next to Hudson was in his mid to late thirties and no younger? I mean, are you just making that up or do you have some gift at looking at poor fuzzy images and can tell how old people are ... tell me the secret!

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right

I told you already, RSM is the one & only man who Hudson refers to.

The older guy was not mentioned at all.

Doesn't work for me but if your happy with it, that's fine.

Your going to have to explain how you know the older guy ran into the car-lot & didn't dive down behind the wall at some point though.

The witnesses to the assassination said that the motorcade was so noisy that many people had trouble telling the gunfire from cycle backfires. I was there on the 35th anniversary when the replica limo came down the street with just four cycles flanking it and it was deafening. So it seems like a stretch for me to buy that the man who fled up the stairs could somehow be heard by Hudson telling him to lay down ... and Hudson does say the man was getting down on the sidewalk which appears to be what I see just as the two of them (Hudson and the red shirted man) are going out of sight in Nix's film.

And I will say this again - anyone who says they can tell the age difference between the two guys on the steps is full of himself. The images of them two men aren't good enough to even tell what race they were, let alone who was the younger one. That is why I think you're just screwing around when you say the one man was in his mid to late thirties when Hudson himself who had a crystal clear view of the guy from only inches away said he was in his mid to late twenties.

Once again, Hudson referred to only one man, the younger of the two, not the older guy seen next to him as the limo arrives.

He stayed with this younger man for well over a minute on the ground.

I think he would of known by then, if this was the same man or not.

If you have trouble seeing how RAM is older than RSM who Hudson talked about, I suggest you simply ignore me referring to him as older & concentrate instead in what I am saying about him.

His age is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I'm calling him older because he looks older to me, get used to it & don't refer me to Hudson's testimony where he's obviously talking about the younger RSM.

Finally, if you know for a fact that RAM ran into the lot & did not hit the ground behind the wall then say something, fast.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Miles Scull]

Finally, if you know for a fact that RAM ran into the lot & did not hit the ground behind the wall then say something, fast.

Alan,

Hudson's language is clear.

Red Shirt Man is the "young fellow."

Thank you Miles,

I tend to agree with your analysis of Hudson's testimony but I think I need to go back & read your

main reason for wanting to pin-point who Hudson was talking about now.

I hope it wasn't something to do with "who Bowers saw".....

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Hudson is saying that "young fellow" stood next to him from the time the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm until the second shot.

But the man standing next to Hudson in Moorman ran away in seconds after the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson is saying that after the man ran up the stairs the "young fellow" (RSM), who had stood with him since the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, told him to lie down.

This means that the photographic evidence does not agree or comport with Hudson's testimony. It contradicts Hudson.

Miller's explanation for this is that Hudson became confused & imagined that, when the the man ran up the stairs & was replaced by RSM,... that RSM was the man who ran away & had been by him all the while. One man became another man in Hudson's mind: a doppelgänger.

Miller is saying, therefore, that Hudson had a very powerful hallucination.

Very good. This renders Hudson unreliable & not credible & so vitiates Hudson's testimony as valid.

This appalling development was noticed by Ken, who realized that the only remotely plausible scenario was that "run-away-man" dashed to safety behind the retaining wall & then comically shouted in a huge, stentorian voice instructions to Hudson.

Hudson's testimony opens up more questions that it answers.

It cannot be taken as gospel as some have taken it. It's suspect.

By the way, Alan, do you actually see Hudson in this crop? I don't. Is he REALLY actually behind Run-Away-Man? Look at those legs.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

I told you already, RSM is the one & only man who Hudson refers to.

The older guy was not mentioned at all.

Hudson mentions the guy standing to his left when they stood up as the president came onto Elm Street and he testified that this man was standing on his left when the first shot rang out. Hudson's testimony about that is seen below.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out .......

Now here below is the Willis photo taken at the moment the first shot rang out. Look for the Hudson step and tell me is the red shirted man there or the man seen in all the assassination images showing the steps during the shooting who eventually ran away???

Now having seen a photo taken when the first shot rang out and knowing that Hudson had said under oath, "When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out" ... how do you figure that Hudson was talking only about the red shirted man.

Blowing that simple trail is like having a two piece jigsaw puzzle and not figuring out how to put the two pieces together! And to think why some people still call us 'buffs'.

Bill Miller

Edited November 2, 2007 by Bill Miller