Sixth Floor Candidates

[Mark Knight]

Tim, if you'll do your research, I believe you'll discover that Buell Wesley Frazier drove a 1953 Chevrolet, and NOT a Ford.

[Tim Gratz]

Mark, are you telling me good guy Gus got it WRONG?

Do you have an easy reference to the car Frazier drove? Is it in his WC testimony? If so, you don't need to bother to find a page cite.

Gus says it was a black coupe.

Did he at least get the color and body style correct?

Edited October 1, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Knight]

Nope.

According to the statement of Linnie Mae Randle, Frazier drove a black 1954 Chevrolet 4-door sedan:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/randl_l1.htm

I was mistaken about it being a '53, but there was little change in Chevrolet body styles between 1951 and 1954.

Still, there's a world of difference between a Ford coupe and a Chevrolet 4-door sedan.

[Tim Gratz]

Thank you Mark for that citation. And you are correct that there is indeed a substantial difference between a Chevrolet four door sedan and a Ford coupe.

Makes you wonder how Russo could say it was the same kind of car that Frazier drove.

Just another lesson that it is always better to rely on PRIMARY SOURCES as opposed to assuming an author got something right. And what do you do to verify a fact when its only source is a private interview of a witness by the author?

[Bernice Moore]

nobody seems to consider the actions of anyone else who didn't apparently have any such constraints, and managed ... to work around them quite admirably ... to the extent that not even today, much less back then, nobody considers anyone in the building other than Oswald to be a possible perpetrator.

Assuming we have eliminated Oswald, Truly, Frazier and Norman/Jarman/Williams as possible perpetrators, that would seem to leave Jack Daugherty as the one male TSBD employee who might fit the bill as someone who could have assisted the perpetrators. Daugherty was on the sixth floor shortly before the shooting, I think he testified, and was on the fifth floor when he heard the shots.

OK Duke, bring on your theory about Jack Daugherty. After forty years it must be ready for Prime Time.

*************

One strange statement from Jack Dougherty ,

as well as Linnie Mae Randle & Wesley Buell Frazier's firsts....compare......

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 11/23/63

LINNIE MAE RANDLE, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas, phone Blackburn 3-8965, was interviewed at the Dallas Police Department.

RANDLE advised that she is the sister of BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, who is employed by the Texas School Book Depository and resides at her residence, stated that she met LEE HARVEY OSWALD through her brother, and has known OSWALD and his wife for about six weeks. RANDLE advised that OSWALD's wife is MARINA OSWALD, who resides at 2515 W. Fifth, Irving, Texas, and that OSWALD spends the weekends with his wife at the above mentioned address. Her brother, WESLEY FRAZIER, customarily drives LEE HARVEY OSWALD to 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Texas, on Friday night, and takes him back to work on Monday morning. He stated that OSWALD is also employed at the Texas School Book Depository.

On the night of November 21, 1963, she observed FRAZIER letting LEE HARVEY OSWALD out of FRAZIER's car at 2515 West Fifth. Subsequently, she asked FRAZIER why OSWALD was visiting his wife on Thursday evening, as he usually did not visit her until Friday evening each week. FRAZIER told her that OSWALD claimed he was visiting his wife the night of November 21, 1963, because he is fixing up his apartment and RUTH PAINE, with whom his wife resides at 2515 West Fifth, Irving, was going to give him some curtain rods.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.

on 11/22/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

by Special Agent JAMES W. BOOKHOUT/cah/tjd

Date dictated 11/23/63

****************************

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Buell Wesley Frazier, Age 19, 2439 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas WE 3-8965 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I work at Texas School Book Depository, Corner Elm and Houston. I have worked there since September 13, 1963. I fill orders. About a month ago, I met Lee Harvey Oswald at work. I saw that he was a new man, and I walked up to him and asked him if he was Lee. I figured he must be Lee as my sister had told me about him. I asked him if he would like to ride back and forth with me as I knew his wife lived with Ruth Paine near my house, and he said he would, but only on week ends as he had an apartment of his own in Oak Cliff. After that every Friday evening Lee would ride home with me and then ride back to work with me on Monday morning. He has only rode home from work with me on Fridays, but yesterday morning, Thursday, November 21, 1963, Lee told me that he wanted to ride home with me that evening. I was surprised, and I asked him if he was going with me Friday also, and he said, "No". He told me that he was going home to get some curtain rods. Thursday afternoon Lee rode to Irving with me to Ruth Paine's house, where his wife is staying. I let him out of my car in front of Ruth's house, then I went on. This morning, Friday, November 22, 1963, I got up between 6:00 - 6:30 AM, and got ready to go to work, and then sit down to eat breakfast, about 7:15 AM, me, my mother, and my two little neices [sic] were at the table, and my sister was at the sink. My mother looked up and said, "Who is that looking in the window?" I looked up and said, "That's Lee." I got up and finished getting ready and got my lunch and went to the door and met Lee on the car port. We then walked to my car, it was parked backed up at the side of the car port. Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a big sack. It must have been about 2' long, and the top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under. I asked Lee what was in the sack, and he said "curtain rods", and I remembered that he had told me the day before that he was going to bring some curtain rods. We drove to work the same way that I usually go. We came into town on Stemmons Freeway to Main and Main to Record, and then on across the McKinney and by the warehouse to the parking lot. I parked the car and sit there awhile and run the motor to charge the battery, and while I was doing that, Lee got out and opened the back door and got the package out of the back seat and walked behind the car, then I got out of the car and started walking toward the building where I work. I noticed that Lee had the package in his right hand under his arm, and the package was straight up and down, and he had his arm down, and you could not see much of the package. When we started walking, Lee was just a few feet ahead of me, but he kept waking faster than me, and finally got way ahead of me. I saw him go in the back door at the Loading Dock of the building that we work in, and he still had the package under his arm. I did not see him anymore for about 30 minutes, and then we were both working. Lee did not carry his lunch today. He told me this morning he was going to buy his lunch today. I was standing on the front steps of the building when the Parade came by, and I watched the Parade go by. After President Kennedy had got out of my sight, I heard three shots. I stood there, then people started running by, and I turned, and went back in the building and got my lunch and eat it. I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today, and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor.

Wesley Frazier

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Frazier WC

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm

Frazier..Shaw Trial

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb3.htm

Linnie Mae Randle WC..testimony

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/randlelm.htm

B...

Edited October 1, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Duke Lane]

nobody seems to consider the actions of anyone else who didn't apparently have any such constraints, and managed ... to work around them quite admirably ... to the extent that not even today, much less back then, nobody considers anyone in the building other than Oswald to be a possible perpetrator.

Assuming we have eliminated Oswald, Truly, Frazier and Norman/Jarman/Williams as possible perpetrators, that would seem to leave Jack Daugherty as the one male TSBD employee who might fit the bill as someone who could have assisted the perpetrators. Daugherty was on the sixth floor shortly before the shooting, I think he testified, and was on the fifth floor when he heard the shots.

OK Duke, bring on your theory about Jack Daugherty. After forty years it must be ready for Prime Time.

Shoot, Ray, are you telling me you think I'm over 40? God love ya!

There is the old adage about "means, motive and opportunity," and it can be said that Jack definitely had the means and the opportunity, although a motive would be much harder to discern. It might be as we've discussed about "callow youth" being easily influenced - Jack, while older, was not emotionally mature - or there could be more to it. Still, the fact that he was never even considered a suspect - or a "person of interest" - is pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, at the moment I'm a bit pressed for time, and an analysis of Jack's means and opportunity will necessarily take quite a bit of it. In the meanwhile, it might be useful if someone was able to recap the various descriptions witnesses claiming to have seen someone in any of the upstairs windows gave to the authorities, if anyone's got that at hand.

As an added bonus, I'll show that one of the participants in the immediate investigation following the shooting probably actually saw the shooter(s), but didn't realize it at the time (or any time thereafter). And just for the sake of saying so, it wasn't Baker who saw him or them, so discard any thoughts about parsing his 11/22 affidavit!

Gotta run, be back tonight!

[Greg Parker]

There is the old adage about "means, motive and opportunity," and it can be said that Jack definitely had the means

He was seen with a rifle that day? One was found that may have been his?

and the opportunity, although a motive would be much harder to discern. It might be as we've discussed about "callow youth" being easily influenced - Jack, while older, was not emotionally mature - or there could be more to it. Still, the fact that he was never even considered a suspect - or a "person of interest" - is pretty amazing.

No less so than Troy West escaping scrutiny as possibly being the "elderly Negro" seen.

Unfortunately, at the moment I'm a bit pressed for time, and an analysis of Jack's means and opportunity will necessarily take quite a bit of it.

Okay. Look forward to seeing it when time permits your analysis.

In the meanwhile, it might be useful if someone was able to recap the various descriptions witnesses claiming to have seen someone in any of the upstairs windows gave to the authorities, if anyone's got that at hand.

Rowland

Slender white male, dark hair, light-colored shirt, open at neck

Brennan

He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definately [sic] not a suit.

Let's throw Baker in just for the halibut, since his encounter was most likely fourth floor.

Baker

The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5"9', 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

As an added bonus, I'll show that one of the participants in the immediate investigation following the shooting probably actually saw the shooter(s), but didn't realize it at the time (or any time thereafter). And just for the sake of saying so, it wasn't Baker who saw him or them, so discard any thoughts about parsing his 11/22 affidavit!

The only parsing necessary with his statement is if you want to turn it into a 2nd floor lunch encounter with Oswald. I'll stick to what it actually says.

Gotta run, be back tonight!

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Thanks Bernice for the pics and links. The City of Dallas archives are not always easy to navigate within. Appreciate the affidavit from Dougherty. When reading his testimony from the WC,I dont know whether to laugh or cry. So according to his affidavit the shooting took place later than 12:45...and it also seems like he says that after his encounter with Piper,he once more went back up at the sixth floor to see these 'floor-laying-people'. Incredible

Edited October 2, 2007 by Trygve V. Jensen

[Tim Gratz]

Not trying to divert the thread but an interesting tidbit:

I understand Galileo first penned that phrase "Don't know whether to laugh or cry" when he wrote Kepler about the people who refused to believe one of his discoveries or inventions. Source: a lecture on "Great Thinkers" by the Learning Companies.

[Duke Lane]

There is the old adage about "means, motive and opportunity," and it can be said that Jack definitely had the means

He was seen with a rifle that day? One was found that may have been his?

I can appreciate the skepticism, but ownership and sighting are not necessarily at issue here. The fact is that a rifle was found on the sixth floor, and Jack had been on the sixth floor, ergo Jack had the means.

I'm not necessarily postulating that Jack fired the rifle (as will be seen), although if I were someone who'd enlisted Jack's support in getting me into and out of the building, I would probably make sure that he did if only to ensure his silence about his complicity. If Jack fired a (or the) rifle, it's my guess is that his was or were one of the shots that missed (e.g., hit the roadway behind the limo, at the manhole in the park seen by some cops and bystanders, and/or the one that hit near Tague).

My estimation of Dougherty is, first, that he was a 40-year-old man who was still living at home with his parents. He didn't drive and had a speech impediment (note in his testimony where he's asked if he has any trouble speaking, which he denies. While it cannot be evident from written testimony, the fact is that he clicked his tongue or smacked his lips - I forget which one - when he spoke) and was made fun of by the younger guys at work (these from a former TSBD employee).

Moreover, he served in the Army - briefly - in WWII, a time when every able-bodied male saw it as his patriotic (and manly) duty to come to the aid of his country. Jack not only never saw battle, but also never left the United States (well, he did go "out of the country" to Indiana ... which is distinct from the Republic of Texas!), never did more than pull guard duty, and was medically discharged due to his mental/emotional deficiencies.

In sum, Jack was "less than a man" and "less than patriotic" because of his aborted wartime service, even if perhaps only in his own eyes. He was, however, a faithful pet, one who showed loyalty to those who treated him well. One such person was Roy Truly, who entrusted Jack with the important duty of checking the pipes and such in the basement each morning for leaks before anyone else got to work. Truly also speaks kindly - if not slightly condescendingly - of Jack in his testimony before the Commission. One can almost sense Jack's feeling of self-importance as he relates this information to counsel.

As with undue influence over callow youth (yes, I'm attached to the phrase, it seems!), so too might someone who ostensibly treated Jack with respect be able to not only elicit his support in a plot, but also appeal to his possible desire to overcome what he perceives as his own inferiority by participating in a "patriotic" endeavor to rid the nation of the "Communist" who was going to sell the country out to the Reds, and a chance at last to "be a man" by shooting the rifle and participating in this important effort. The trust shown in him might well have been enough to ensure his undying loyalty (read: "silence").

(Lest there be doubt that intelligent, educated and otherwise reasonable people felt exactly this way at that time, I suggest reading the WC testimony of Revilo Pendleton Oliver (15H709-744) and his collected works at revilo-oliver.com, especially those relating to Jack Kennedy - "Marxmanship in Dallas" and "The Aftermath of the Assassination," among others.)

In sum, an appeal to Jack's sense of pride at the least, and to his politics (of which we know nothing), could well have inveigled his witting or unwitting accomplicity, even unwitting up to the point that someone brought out a rifle. What he might've been told to that point is anyone's good guess. I have been told, however, that afterwards, Jack "always acted like he knew something about the assassination that nobody else knew."

Did he? Even if none of the above is or was "motive" on his part, the means and the opportunity existed. I'll lay it out in my next post, and leave now with the thought that Jack - if he had any involvement at all - was not a "lone nut" acting on his own.

In the meanwhile, it might be useful if someone was able to recap the various descriptions witnesses claiming to have seen someone in any of the upstairs windows gave to the authorities, if anyone's got that at hand.

Rowland: Slender white male, dark hair, light-colored shirt, open at neck

Brennan: He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definately [sic] not a suit.

Let's throw Baker in just for the halibut, since his encounter was most likely fourth floor.

Baker: The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5"9', 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Thanks for that, Greg! (I want to say Baker's description that you threw in for the "halibut" will probably "flounder," but I'm resisting the pun!) Weren't there more than these, including one of someone in dark clothing, or am I thinking sideways? At this point, I'll qualify that by saying that I presently have no idea what Jack normally wore or was wearing that day, it's just an avenue of inquiry at the moment ....

[J. Raymond Carroll]

My estimation of Dougherty is, first, that he was a 40-year-old man who was still living at home with his parents. He didn't drive and had a speech impediment

If someone threatened his father and mother, you can bet that would guarantee his cooperation.

It would be interesting to know if anyone in Jack's immediate circle had a bad experience in the days preceding the assassination.

I have been told, however, that afterwards, Jack "always acted like he knew something about the assassination that nobody else knew."

That is exactly the way Larry Ray Harris described him to me.

Larry actually took a job as an order-filler at the TSBD where he got to know Jack Daugherty. Daugherty refused to be drawn into any discussion of November 22nd, but he did, as Duke says, act like he knew something that nobody else knew. I would be interested in knowing who is Duke's source for this comment.

[Duke Lane]

My estimation of Dougherty is, first, that he was a 40-year-old man who was still living at home with his parents. He didn't drive and had a speech impediment

If someone threatened his father and mother, you can bet that would guarantee his cooperation. It would be interesting to know if anyone in Jack's immediate circle had a bad experience in the days preceding the assassination.

My impression is that that wouldn't have been necessary, and suspect that if people who treated him well handled him properly, he'd have been a willing participant ... whether he knew the ultimate goal or not. After the fact, how could he not have? What kept him quiet after his parents died? Jack himself has gone to the great knoll in the sky by now ... SSDI says back in the '90s.

I have been told, however, that afterwards, Jack "always acted like he knew something about the assassination that nobody else knew."

That is exactly the way Larry Ray Harris described him to me.

Larry actually took a job as an order-filler at the TSBD where he got to know Jack Daugherty. Daugherty refused to be drawn into any discussion of November 22nd, but he did, as Duke says, act like he knew something that nobody else knew. I would be interested in knowing who is Duke's source for this comment.

A former TSBD employee. Same as above.

[Duke Lane]

Neither am I necessarily offering Frazier as a conspirator/shooter, but it is clear, is it not, that either he or LHO are lying about the package?

... Not[e] also that when Russo attempted to interview Frazier, Russo reports that Frazier was very, very nervous.

Tim,

How about a full quote on this nervousness? Context, circumstances, etc. I'm just curious what Russo has to say about it (I don't have his book) since I have Paul Harvey's viewpoint on it.

[Greg Parker]

In the meanwhile, it might be useful if someone was able to recap the various descriptions witnesses claiming to have seen someone in any of the upstairs windows gave to the authorities, if anyone's got that at hand.

Rowland: Slender white male, dark hair, light-colored shirt, open at neck

Brennan: He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definately [sic] not a suit.

Let's throw Baker in just for the halibut, since his encounter was most likely fourth floor.

Baker: The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5"9', 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Thanks for that, Greg! (I want to say Baker's description that you threw in for the "halibut" will probably "flounder," but I'm resisting the pun!)

You can thank your lucky stars you resisted, Duke. I would have been forced to respond that Baker's man had just descended from the sniper's perch.

Weren't there more than these, including one of someone in dark clothing, or am I thinking sideways?

Not sure about any more.

At this point, I'll qualify that by saying that I presently have no idea what Jack normally wore or was wearing that day, it's just an avenue of inquiry at the moment ....

Just bringing this back to the fore in the hope you'll keep us updated. Also, if anyone has any pics of Dougherty, Piper or West, it may help greatly.

[Duke Lane]

Just bringing this back to the fore in the hope you'll keep us updated. Also, if anyone has any pics of Dougherty, Piper or West, it may help greatly.

I'm working on it. It's funny how, no matter the fact that you've got stuff in your head, all of these myriad details and how they correlate to each other, they never simply flow out onto paper (so to speak). Of course, there's the added burden of citations, not simply saying "Joe Schmoe said this and did that," which slows things down even more.

Maybe I'll post it in parts ....

I don't have photos of any of them, but Troy West, you'll remember, never left the wrapping table, even for lunch, and was still eating his lunch when the cops started coming in after the shooting.