I protest

[Tim Gratz]

I understand that John B is not particularly fond of organizations or individuals whose politics are right-of-center.

But he is now posting thread after thread about individual conservative organizations, many founded years after JFK was assassinated.

These threads do not belong in the "JFK Assassination Debate" section. They ought to go into a section called "Politics" (if there is one),

Just as John S correctly moved my thread about the Hiss case to another section, all of the recent threads started by John B should be moved, and for the same reason.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[John Simkin]

I understand that John B is not particularly fond of organizations or individuals whose politics are right-of-center.

But he is now posting thread after thread about individual conservative organizations, many founded years after JFK was assassinated.

These threads do not belong in the "JFK Assassination Debate" section. They ought to go into a section called "Politics" (if there is one),

Just as John S correctly moved my thread about the Hiss case to another section, all of the recent threads started by John B should be moved, and for the same reason.

I agree about the Council for the Defense of Freedom and I have moved it to the political conspiracy section. However, I disagree about the Christian Anti-Communism Crusade and have left it in the JFK section.

[Tim Gratz]

I notice they are being moved. Thanks. Of course if John B has information linking any member of any right wing organization to the assassination, THAT information belongs here.

And while I do not subscribe to the theory that a right-wing kook did it, I certainly acknowledge there were some kooks out there in the early 1960s. I even met two young people who could be so characterized so I know from personal experience they were out there.

But of course my view is that Santo Trafficante, Jr. planned the entire assassination and the motivation had nothing to do with JFK's politics.

Except there is some indication that he was also earning some "chits" with Fidel.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

But of course my view is that Santo Trafficante, Jr. planned the entire assassination and the motivation had nothing to do with JFK's politics.

It is, of course, standard at this juncture to cry, "So who performed the massive cover up, including destruction of pertinent evidence, and the murder of pertinent witnesses that continues to this day Tim? and for what reason if a Mafia hoodlum, and possibly a hated Commie leader did de deed."

[Ron Ecker]

Tim,

Have you laid out the case against Trafficante on the forum? If so, can you provide a link or links to the thread(s), or perhaps better yet, devote a new thread to it? Or do you subscribe to the plot as laid out in Ultimate Sacrifice?

I'm aware of course of Trafficante's apparent foreknowledge expressed to Jose Aleman, and his deathbed confession as reported by his lawyer. But any foreknowledge is not the same as planning the assassination. (A Cuban in Chicago seemed to have foreknowledge too. Was he in on the planning?) And is Trafficante's confession to be considered more valid than that of the dying E. Howard Hunt, who said that LBJ and the CIA did it?

As for the suspicious Cuban Policarpo from Tampa, as I recall there is more reason to believe that he was a creature of the CIA than of Trafficante. But I don't recall all the details.

Given your view that there is no evidence whatsoever that the CIA was involved, your standard of evidence seems to change when it comes to Trafficante.

Ron

Edited October 30, 2007 by Ron Ecker

[John Simkin]

Tim,

Have you laid out the case against Trafficante on the forum? If so, can you provide a link or links to the thread(s), or perhaps better yet, devote a new thread to it? Or do you subscribe to the plot as laid out in Ultimate Sacrifice?

It has been discussed here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4859

[Ashton Gray]

Bevilaqua is flooding and choking this forum and now the Watergate forum with tens of thousands of words of boilerplate crap from ancient news that never was news, and that I wouldn't wrap rotted red herrings in.

He also, as part of the operation of his worthless flood, is providing a perfect foil for the little staged Punch'n'Judy show with the other chronic flooder, Gratz, who of course started this very go-nowhere thread to keep the "conflict" with Bevilaqua going and further flood and choke the forum with garbage.

Bill Miller is the other chronic flooder and has his own group of "foils" who help keep his sewage flowing like the Nile.

Meanwhile, the administrators and moderators suit up in full armor like White Knights to protect and empower these full-tilt assaults on knowledge and orderly discussion while waving the giant satin banner of "free speech" over them, yet get their panties in a gargantuan Gordian knot if anybody gives a proven xxxx the label that so rightfully applies.

When is someone here going to wake up to the blatant tools of disinformation and the wanton, malicious destruction of informational lines in the name of "free speech"? Ever?

Ashton Gray

Edited October 30, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Kathleen Collins]

But of course my view is that Santo Trafficante, Jr. planned the entire assassination and the motivation had nothing to do with JFK's politics.

Except there is some indication that he was also earning some "chits" with Fidel.

It's hard for me to determine when you are joking. So, I'll take the above assertion seriously. Last night on a thread, I said I believed the Mafia did it because they were so desperate that Oswald be killed, they sent Jack Ruby to do it on TV; which had the side effect of giving them publicity they didn't want.

I now realize that Ruby was closer to the CIA and the Cuban Exiles. Did this organization press upon Ruby to kill Oswald because the cop coming into the TSBD didn't? And the Mob suffered because someone like Irv Kupcinet (calling Dorfman) was linking Ruby to the Mob? And whether involved or not, they committed a shocking crime to cover themselves in Chicago? (Not Miami, not New Orleans nor California.) Everyone in Chicago watched Karyn Kupcinet growing up. The headlines were shocking. The public knew she was dead before Irv and Essee Kupcinet did. Imagine seeing that headline.

Kathy

Edited October 30, 2007 by Kathleen Collins

[John Bevilaqua]

Hissy Fits and Giggling Girly Gossip

have no place on this Forum. Only

solid researchers need apply here.

Get it Hissy fits? Alger T. Hiss?

I crack myself up.

Check out George Michael Evica

and A Certain Arrogance....

Now THAT is on the money research.

[Tim Gratz]

John, speaking of "Hissy fits". I still await your post (in the thread John moved) to document that Hiss was once acquitted. I cannot find any record of such an acquittal. Did I miss it somehow?

Edited October 31, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Kathleen wrote:

I now realize that Ruby was closer to the CIA and the Cuban Exiles

Kathleen, is this just your own unsupported epiphany or do you have any evidence linking JR to either the CIA or Cuan exiles?

Ruby's calls preceding the assassination were all to mobsters and associates of Jimmy Hoffa.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Stephen Roy]

John, speaking of "Hissy fits". I still await your post (in the thread John moved) to document that Hiss was once acquitted. I cannot find any record of such an acquittal. Did I miss it somehow?

Just for the record, Alger Hiss was never acquitted. He was never charged with espionage, but with perjury. One trial ended in a hung jury, the second in conviction and prison.

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

[Owen Parsons]

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

He initially denied it because he had known Chambers under a different name and his physical appearance had changed drastically in the interval. Context.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

I think you'll find that just about all the allegations of interest in the American Communist movement track back to one person.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Owen Parsons

[Mark Stapleton]

Kathleen wrote:

I now realize that Ruby was closer to the CIA and the Cuban Exiles

Kathleen, is this just your own unsupported epiphany or do you have any evidence linking JR to either the CIA or Cuan exiles?

Ruby's calls preceding the assassination were all to mobsters and associates of Jimmy Hoffa.

Not exactly, Tim. Some of Ruby's calls had connections to Mickey Cohen and Meyer Lansky.

One of Larry Hancock's timelines in his excellent book 'Someone Would Have Talked' (2nd ed., 2006) (pp381-383) has Ruby calling Al Gruber in LA on November 17. Interestingly, Gruber had suddenly lobbed on Ruby's doorstep earlier that month after no contact in the previous 10 years. Further, Ruby had appeared at the offices of the Merchants State Bank on the afternoon of November 22 with $7,000 in large bills in his possession. Ruby also made a three minute call to Gruber that same day. Apart from his sister in Chicago, it was the only long distance call he made that day.

[John Bevilaqua]

John, speaking of "Hissy fits". I still await your post (in the thread John moved) to document that Hiss was once acquitted. I cannot find any record of such an acquittal. Did I miss it somehow?

Just for the record, Alger Hiss was never acquitted. He was never charged with espionage, but with perjury. One trial ended in a hung jury, the second in conviction and prison.

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

Another one of the Hiss framers, Nathaniel Weyl, was caught in a sort of plausible denial regarding his role

while committing 2-3 felonies during the Bayo Pawley affair thus rendering his contributions to the Hiss case

suspect. When he described the Bayo Pawley affair to me there was no mention of "a freighter passing

between their boat and shore" and he said the landing party "was in a motorized rubber raft" which he said

was riddled with bullet holes from a machine gun fired in anger when they did not return with the Soviet

missile officers who were going to be whisked away to a Goldwater press conference at his ranch. Later

he fabricated statements even on this website to make it appear that they were warned to take a rubber

raft along in the event of a capsize event. Why did he make these changes? Because he told me that

they were only about a mile offshore during the Bayo Pawley event and that good buddies, is considered

the territorial waters of a sovereign nation making him a violator of The Neutrality Act. And the fact that

he watched as "they all sank beneath the surface of the water" makes him an accessory to murder, no?

And he claimed to have helped to secure the guns, bombs and ammo used in the raid, too. What does

that make him? A 3 time felon who got off scot free. And Whittaker Chambers record in the Hiss case

is not much better if you look at John Simkin's exoneration links. Both of these people were in the employ

of Wickliffe Draper, someone who engaged in 10 fabricated assaults against humanity during the 20th

Century starting with Sacco and Vanzetti and ending up with The Bell Curve, after his death. So I maintain

that given he benefit of time, it is now apparent that the mere presence of Draper, Weyl and Chambers as well

as Robert J. Morris in the Hiss framing, is prima facie evidence of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge.

Nothing that Draper and Morris were involved in did not contain elements of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge. Look at Chambers statements in the Morris obit regarding Morris' dominant role in McCarthyism.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But to rely on only 55 year old evidence is inadequate. Quod Est Demonstratum.