I protest

[Tim Gratz]

I wrote (in response to a post by Kathleen):

Ruby's calls preceding the assassination were all to mobsters and associates of Jimmy Hoffa.

To which Mark replied:

Not exactly, Tim. Some of Ruby's calls had connections to Mickey Cohen and Meyer Lansky.

Mark, perhaps I did not make myself clear. I did not mean that all who Ruby called were mobsters who were associated with Hoffa. What I meant was that one or more of Ruby's calls were to men whom may not have been mafioso as such but were connected to Hoffa, e.g. Bernard Baker (not to be confused of course with the Cuban exile with a similar name).

Cohen was of course the head of the LA mob and while Lansky could not be a member of the mafia because he was Jewish, was nevertheless the "brains" behind many of the mafia leaders. But you know that.

Sorry if I was unclear in my post.

But there are no reported connections between Ruby and CIA agents (well, maybe LHO!) and Cuban exiles. If anything, Ruby had some very tentative connections to Fidel.

[John Bevilaqua]

Ruby was a gun runner for anti-Castro Cuban exiles linked to the CIA...

Kathleen wrote:

I now realize that Ruby was closer to the CIA and the Cuban Exiles

Kathleen, is this just your own unsupported epiphany or do you have any evidence linking JR to either the CIA or Cuan exiles?

Ruby's calls preceding the assassination were all to mobsters and associates of Jimmy Hoffa.

Ruby's record as a gun runner for the anti-Castro Cuban exiles has been discussed by Gaeton Fonzi, Marita Lorenz, perhaps Bill Turner and at least one Interpen member. And I personally saw a person I firmly believe to have been Jack Ruby driving away from a Cuban exile safehouse in the driveway in Miami which had been frequented over the years by Frank Sturgis (remember him... Watergate and CIA?), E. Howard Hunt (another CIA dude), and several persons who spoke with what sounded to me like a distinct Cuban accent.

I told Mary that he sure looked like Ruby and he was wearing a hat and a suit and tie while driving a car in 85 degree heat and that it was a Pepto Bismol pink Rambler station wagon. Mary said, "Yep that was Jack Ruby all right."

And later Dick Bartholemew wrote a 200 page paper on that Pepto Bismol pink Rambler station wagon with a bit of my help in focusing on the make, model, color and year. What was the Real Estate sign in the front yard over the years of this 2 story duplex? Keyes Realty. Wasn't that the CIA cutout run by some more Watergate burglars? Can't recall just who. Bernard Barker maybe. Sounds like evidence of both CIA and Cuban exile associations to me. Nice try. Don't take my word for it go talk to Fonzi, Lorenz or Bill Turner like I did. Do you guys just read comic books and watch TV then do JFK research? The ONLY way to do JFK research is to pick up the phone or bang on the doors of REAL, LIVE people with "celebrity status" or insider information and ask them questions ear to ear or face to face. You all know my attitude about armchair researchers who use the channel changer as their main research tools. Just does not cut it. Uh-ah. Have any of you tried to get answers the old fashioned way. You have to EARN IT. Then perhaps someday you, too, can enjoy "celebrity statics" or "celebrity status" a higher calling. And then maybe someone like Mary Ferrell will introduce you to some of her "best informants" or another friend will discover the Nathaniel Weyl Eugenics connections to Draper and the Alger Hiss case and give you his phone number so you can get some answers. Or maybe you too could have called Robert J. Morris before his brain swelled up and he died. Or did you ever think of CALLING up Spas T. Raikin and quizzing him, too? Guess not. Or maybe Dick Russell will ask you about Baron Wrangel and James Wheeler Hill and you can tell him: "Why they were friends and associates of Vonsiatsky". They were White Russians, too. What

other way is there to get answers and to put 2 and 2 together? Or maybe someone like George Michael Evica will start exploring a tangential lead where you first laid the groundwork like the Unitarian roots of Wickliffe Draper and come up with some really startling new information. Then again maybe not. But keep trying. This is not supposed to be like UTube or MySpace or even The History Channel but a forum for real research. How long does it take to attain "celebrity status"? 10 maybe 15 years if you are lucky and open minded and persistent and are following the right tracks and talking to the right people. Drop a dime and call someone. When they go to a JFK conference, network with them.

Start with the printed historical record, formulate a theory then a thesis and send up a trial balloon. Talk to the

neice of Andrij Melnyk and find out how to pronounce that darn name, you might be surprised what you discover.

Talk to the right people or better yet, talk to the Right People, just listen to their vitriole their hyperbole their anger

and their frustration. Looking for Hate in All the Right Places? Well then you are barking up the Right Tree. Good

luck and Godspeed you all.

Edited October 31, 2007 by John Bevilaqua

[Stephen Roy]

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

He initially denied it because he had known Chambers under a different name and his physical appearance had changed drastically in the interval. Context.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

I think you'll find that just about all the allegations of interest in the American Communist movement track back to one person.

I am aware of Hiss's claims not to recognize Chambers. I have seen pictures of Chambers when he claims to have been in touch with Hiss, and when he testified in 1948. While it is true that Chambers hair had greyed a bit and his teeth had been capped, I find it hard to believe that Hiss could not recognize a man who had dtayed in his home for a period of time. I am sympathetic: In that era of heightened anti-Communism, it would have looked bad to admit that he knew the man, but I believe he was being less than truthful.

Through happenstance, I know someone who knew Hiss well, and as a young man, Hiss strongly believed that Communism might be the antidote to the horrors of the Great Depression.

[Stephen Roy]

John, speaking of "Hissy fits". I still await your post (in the thread John moved) to document that Hiss was once acquitted. I cannot find any record of such an acquittal. Did I miss it somehow?

Just for the record, Alger Hiss was never acquitted. He was never charged with espionage, but with perjury. One trial ended in a hung jury, the second in conviction and prison.

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

Another one of the Hiss framers,

Framers? Hiss denied, under oath, knowing a man he later admitted that he knew.

Nathaniel Weyl, was caught in a sort of plausible denial regarding his role

while committing 2-3 felonies during the Bayo Pawley affair thus rendering his contributions to the Hiss case

suspect. When he described the Bayo Pawley affair to me there was no mention of "a freighter passing

between their boat and shore" and he said the landing party "was in a motorized rubber raft" which he said

was riddled with bullet holes from a machine gun fired in anger when they did not return with the Soviet

missile officers who were going to be whisked away to a Goldwater press conference at his ranch. Later

he fabricated statements even on this website to make it appear that they were warned to take a rubber

raft along in the event of a capsize event. Why did he make these changes? Because he told me that

they were only about a mile offshore during the Bayo Pawley event and that good buddies, is considered

the territorial waters of a sovereign nation making him a violator of The Neutrality Act. And the fact that

he watched as "they all sank beneath the surface of the water" makes him an accessory to murder, no?

And he claimed to have helped to secure the guns, bombs and ammo used in the raid, too. What does

that make him? A 3 time felon who got off scot free.

Relevance?

And Whittaker Chambers record in the Hiss case

is not much better if you look at John Simkin's exoneration links. Both of these people were in the employ

of Wickliffe Draper, someone who engaged in 10 fabricated assaults against humanity during the 20th

Century starting with Sacco and Vanzetti and ending up with The Bell Curve, after his death. So I maintain

that given he benefit of time, it is now apparent that the mere presence of Draper, Weyl and Chambers as well

as Robert J. Morris in the Hiss framing, is prima facie evidence of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge.

Chambers was an NKVD functionary. He did have a relationship with Hiss, as both Chamber and Hiss admitted. Hiss intially denied it.

Nothing that Draper and Morris were involved in did not contain elements of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge. Look at Chambers statements in the Morris obit regarding Morris' dominant role in McCarthyism.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But to rely on only 55 year old evidence is inadequate. Quod Est Demonstratum.

I'm not saying Hiss was evil, or even a spy. He was "involved" with an NKVD functionary and "pro-Communist" as a young man. When the 1948 atmosphere was poisoned by anti-Communist fervor, Hiss was trapped in a lie.

[John Bevilaqua]

John, speaking of "Hissy fits". I still await your post (in the thread John moved) to document that Hiss was once acquitted. I cannot find any record of such an acquittal. Did I miss it somehow?

Just for the record, Alger Hiss was never acquitted. He was never charged with espionage, but with perjury. One trial ended in a hung jury, the second in conviction and prison.

Hiss was less than candid in denying any relationship with David Whittaker Chambers. Although he subsequently admitted it, his initial denials were adequate to support the perjury charge.

Hiss is believed to be mentioned in the Venona messages, but a smoking gun is lacking. While there is no clear evidence that he passed classified info to the Soviets, he was almost certainly favorably disposed to the American Communist movement of the 30s-40s.

Another one of the Hiss framers,

Framers? Hiss denied, under oath, knowing a man he later admitted that he knew.

Nathaniel Weyl, was caught in a sort of plausible denial regarding his role

while committing 2-3 felonies during the Bayo Pawley affair thus rendering his contributions to the Hiss case

suspect. When he described the Bayo Pawley affair to me there was no mention of "a freighter passing

between their boat and shore" and he said the landing party "was in a motorized rubber raft" which he said

was riddled with bullet holes from a machine gun fired in anger when they did not return with the Soviet

missile officers who were going to be whisked away to a Goldwater press conference at his ranch. Later

he fabricated statements even on this website to make it appear that they were warned to take a rubber

raft along in the event of a capsize event. Why did he make these changes? Because he told me that

they were only about a mile offshore during the Bayo Pawley event and that good buddies, is considered

the territorial waters of a sovereign nation making him a violator of The Neutrality Act. And the fact that

he watched as "they all sank beneath the surface of the water" makes him an accessory to murder, no?

And he claimed to have helped to secure the guns, bombs and ammo used in the raid, too. What does

that make him? A 3 time felon who got off scot free.

Relevance?

And Whittaker Chambers record in the Hiss case

is not much better if you look at John Simkin's exoneration links. Both of these people were in the employ

of Wickliffe Draper, someone who engaged in 10 fabricated assaults against humanity during the 20th

Century starting with Sacco and Vanzetti and ending up with The Bell Curve, after his death. So I maintain

that given he benefit of time, it is now apparent that the mere presence of Draper, Weyl and Chambers as well

as Robert J. Morris in the Hiss framing, is prima facie evidence of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge.

Chambers was an NKVD functionary. He did have a relationship with Hiss, as both Chamber and Hiss admitted. Hiss intially denied it.

Nothing that Draper and Morris were involved in did not contain elements of complicity, duplicity, deceit and subterfuge. Look at Chambers statements in the Morris obit regarding Morris' dominant role in McCarthyism.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But to rely on only 55 year old evidence is inadequate. Quod Est Demonstratum.

I'm not saying Hiss was evil, or even a spy. He was "involved" with an NKVD functionary and "pro-Communist" as a young man. When the 1948 atmosphere was poisoned by anti-Communist fervor, Hiss was trapped in a lie.

But that make him a traitor? A spy? A risk to internal security? Someone who should be remembered

for all time as some sort of evil person intent on the destruction of our way of life? NO. Yet that is how

most people are being made to feel about him. His accusers were paid to inform on him. Chambers and

Weyl should be remembered for all time as sleaze bags and scum balls. And that is my point here. Weyl

committed 3 felonies and watched as several people drowned or died from gunshot wounds in front of

him. He violated The Neutrality Act. He provided guns, ammo and munitions to attack a foreign power.

Now THIS GUY was a person who should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

McCarthy, Otepks and Morris should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

And THAT is one of my goals here. To set the record straight. I despise YAFers, Birchers and McCarthyites.

[Pat Speer]

John B, Weyl was a member of this forum the last few years of his life. His old posts may be of interest.

[John Bevilaqua]

John B, Weyl was a member of this forum the last few years of his life. His old posts may be of interest.

Thanks, Pat. I looked at a few of them and was not surprised to see how carefully he couched

some of his descriptions about the Bayo Pawley event since he had spoken to me only a few months

or years before he made these postings. Notice how he invented the presence of a freighter passing

between his boat and the shore either on the journey to or from the island. And how he changed the

landing party's boat into a solid shelled hull from an inflated rubber raft? Then he added the flourish

about reminding them to take along a liferaft made out of rubber, just in case they were capsized.

What is he saying that he knew the schedule of the freighter and that it would cross paths with

the landing craft? And then swamp the boat? Wow, what a con artist. He actually thought that

someone was trying to set him up again to incriminate himself in violations of the Neutrality Act.

Glad I put the fear of God into him. Too bad I could not find anyone who wanted to put him away

for a few years though. Where is the part about the boat getting back to the Rex or whatever it

was named and being disappointed that there were no Russian missile officers to be found on board?

And how about the part about the holes being shot in their raft and watching them sink to the bottom?

My point being that this guy and Whittaker Chambers were masters of prevarication, subterfuge,

and distortions. And they knew how to avoid self incrimination AFTER they had been incriminated

once already. And they knew how to mount an attack on someone to get them to incriminate themselves

or to implicate them in a crime they did not commit. Anyone who continues to cite these prevaricators,

these bastidges, these mealy mouthed little worms, runs the risk of falling into the same category as

a defender of a pair of weasels. Hiss was never found guilty of treason, of being a saboteur or of being

a danger to internal security. Chambers was a libelous, treasonous and slanderous, perjurous bastidge.

And that is all he wrote.

[Stephen Roy]

I'm not saying Hiss was evil, or even a spy. He was "involved" with an NKVD functionary and "pro-Communist" as a young man. When the 1948 atmosphere was poisoned by anti-Communist fervor, Hiss was trapped in a lie.

But that make him a traitor? A spy? A risk to internal security? Someone who should be remembered

for all time as some sort of evil person intent on the destruction of our way of life? NO. Yet that is how

most people are being made to feel about him. His accusers were paid to inform on him. Chambers and

Weyl should be remembered for all time as sleaze bags and scum balls. And that is my point here. Weyl

committed 3 felonies and watched as several people drowned or died from gunshot wounds in front of

him. He violated The Neutrality Act. He provided guns, ammo and munitions to attack a foreign power.

Now THIS GUY was a person who should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

McCarthy, Otepks and Morris should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

And THAT is one of my goals here. To set the record straight. I despise YAFers, Birchers and McCarthyites.

In answer to your first rhetorical, no. I think I made that clear. As were many during the depression, Hiss was drawn to the potential of socialism or communism as a possible solution. In restrospect, it was not, but many well-intentioned people held out such hope, at least until the dark side of Stalinism became apparent.

By 1948, the US was whooped into anti-Communist fervor, in part by some of the people you mention. In that atmosphere, the charges by Chambers seemed very sinister, perhaps more so than the reality of his relationship with Hiss. I understand why Hiss sought to minimize his relationship with Chambers. And the world situation became even more polarized during the Hiss trials. And I don't doubt that Weyl, Levine, Massing, Bentley, Chambers and others constituted a dangerous cadre of professional ex-commies who were very loose in their charges.

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

A person who knew Hiss well confirms that he was very sympathetic to communism in the 1930s.

As to the substance of Chambers's charges that Hiss was an agent, the evidence is unclear. There are others named by Chambers who later suggested that Hiss was sympathetic to what they were doing; and there is a person in the Venona messages who MAY have been Hiss. But Hiss gets a presumption of innocence in the absence of proof.

So I agree that the professional ex-communists were an untrustworthy bunch, and that Hiss got caught up in an era of such fervor, but his attempt to minimize his connection with Chambers cost him dearly.

[Owen Parsons]

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

Yes, because he had known Chambers under another name ("George Crosley" according to Hiss, and "Carl" according to Chambers, although Chambers later allowed that Hiss was possibly correct) and had not yet had a face-to-face meeting with him. When he finally had the face-to-face meeting, he identified him as George Crosley after a physical examination.

A person who knew Hiss well confirms that he was very sympathetic to communism in the 1930s.

Who is this unnamed witness? There are many named people who knew nothing of this.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Owen Parsons

[John Bevilaqua]

I'm not saying Hiss was evil, or even a spy. He was "involved" with an NKVD functionary and "pro-Communist" as a young man. When the 1948 atmosphere was poisoned by anti-Communist fervor, Hiss was trapped in a lie.

From John Bevilaqua:

"But that make him a traitor? A spy? A risk to internal security? Someone who should be remembered

for all time as some sort of evil person intent on the destruction of our way of life? NO. Yet that is how

most people are being made to feel about him. His accusers were paid to inform on him. Chambers and

Weyl should be remembered for all time as sleaze bags and scum balls. And that is my point here. Weyl

committed 3 felonies and watched as several people drowned or died from gunshot wounds in front of

him. He violated The Neutrality Act. He provided guns, ammo and munitions to attack a foreign power.

Now THIS GUY was a person who should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

McCarthy, Otepks and Morris should be reviled, despised, shunned, abhorred and castigated, not Hiss.

And THAT is one of my goals here. To set the record straight. I despise YAFers, Birchers and McCarthyites."

In answer to your first rhetorical, no. I think I made that clear. As were many during the depression, Hiss was drawn to the potential of socialism or communism as a possible solution. In restrospect, it was not, but many well-intentioned people held out such hope, at least until the dark side of Stalinism became apparent.

By 1948, the US was whooped into anti-Communist fervor, in part by some of the people you mention. In that atmosphere, the charges by Chambers seemed very sinister, perhaps more so than the reality of his relationship with Hiss. I understand why Hiss sought to minimize his relationship with Chambers. And the world situation became even more polarized during the Hiss trials. And I don't doubt that Weyl, Levine, Massing, Bentley, Chambers and others constituted a dangerous cadre of professional ex-commies who were very loose in their charges.

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

A person who knew Hiss well confirms that he was very sympathetic to communism in the 1930s.

As to the substance of Chambers's charges that Hiss was an agent, the evidence is unclear. There are others named by Chambers who later suggested that Hiss was sympathetic to what they were doing; and there is a person in the Venona messages who MAY have been Hiss. But Hiss gets a presumption of innocence in the absence of proof.

So I agree that the professional ex-communists were an untrustworthy bunch, and that Hiss got caught up in an era of such fervor, but his attempt to minimize his connection with Chambers cost him dearly.

The point I failed to bring up was that the court of public opinion has had over 50 years to "impeach the credibility"

of the witnesses regarding their attempts at framing Hiss as a witting tool of the Communist conspiracy. And in that effort, you might agree, we have succeeded immensely. THAT is the only concern I have, that in people's minds

Hiss is still a dangerous Communist, they think he was somehow convicted of treason or of espionage or of violations

of some unspeakable crimes, and we all know he was not. It is almost as if Hiss was used by the McCarthyites

to justify all the restrictive laws they actually passed and wanted to pass later. Reminds me of using Iraq and WMD to pass The Patriot Acts.

1) Internal Security Act of 1950

2) Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952

3) Communist Control Act of 1954

4) Espionage and Sabotage Act of 1954

5) The Immunity Act of 1954

The last four had been called The Hiss Laws...at one time or another but his threats of lawsuits for

libel and slander soon made that effort subside and disappear.

Would you agree that if the potential Hiss witnesses to a proceeding addressing treason or espionage charges

could have been discredited as thoroughly as they are today, that Hiss would have been cleared on this basis

alone? Because I certainly do. And is anyone thanking me for personally discrediting Weyl and catching him

in a blatant self incrimination for 3 felony charges?

When I asked him: "How do YOU like it?" He said nothing. "How do YOU like being railroaded and boxed into

a corner where you have no other choice but to incriminate yourself and admit to several felonies? How do you

think history will judge you NOW? Huh?" He said: "But I am an old man now. Why do you want to get back at me now?" "For everything you and your scum bag friends did to people like Hiss and my Father." And then he hung up.

[John Bevilaqua]

Ruby WAS a Gun Runner for anti-Castro Cuban exiles... you have just been caught in yet another distortion.

Ruby's record as a gun runner for the anti-Castro Cuban exiles has been discussed by Gaeton Fonzi, Marita Lorenz, perhaps Bill Turner and at least one Interpen member. And I personally saw a person I firmly believe to have been Jack Ruby driving away from a Cuban exile safehouse in the driveway in Miami which had been frequented over the years by Frank Sturgis (remember him... Watergate and CIA?), E. Howard Hunt (another CIA dude), and several persons who spoke with what sounded to me like a distinct Cuban accent.

I told Mary that he sure looked like Ruby and he was wearing a hat and a suit and tie while driving a car in 85 degree heat and that it was a Pepto Bismol pink Rambler station wagon. Mary said, "Yep that was Jack Ruby all right."

And later Dick Bartholemew wrote a 200 page paper on that Pepto Bismol pink Rambler station wagon with a bit of my help in focusing on the make, model, color and year. What was the Real Estate sign in the front yard over the years of this 2 story duplex? Keyes Realty. Wasn't that the CIA cutout run by some more Watergate burglars? Can't recall just who. Bernard Barker maybe. Sounds like evidence of both CIA and Cuban exile associations to me. Nice try. Don't take my word for it go talk to Fonzi, Lorenz or Bill Turner like I did. Do you guys just read comic books and watch TV then do JFK research? The ONLY way to do JFK research is to pick up the phone or bang on the doors of REAL, LIVE people with "celebrity status" or insider information and ask them questions ear to ear or face to face. You all know my attitude about armchair researchers who use the channel changer as their main research tools. Just does not cut it. Uh-ah. Have any of you tried to get answers the old fashioned way. You have to EARN IT. Then perhaps someday you, too, can enjoy "celebrity statics" or "celebrity status" a higher calling. And then maybe someone like Mary Ferrell will introduce you to some of her "best informants" or another friend will discover the Nathaniel Weyl Eugenics connections to Draper and the Alger Hiss case and give you his phone number so you can get some answers. Or maybe you too could have called Robert J. Morris before his brain swelled up and he died. Or did you ever think of CALLING up Spas T. Raikin and quizzing him, too? Guess not. Or maybe Dick Russell will ask you about Baron Wrangel and James Wheeler Hill and you can tell him: "Why they were friends and associates of Vonsiatsky". They were White Russians, too. What

other way is there to get answers and to put 2 and 2 together? Or maybe someone like George Michael Evica will start exploring a tangential lead where you first laid the groundwork like the Unitarian roots of Wickliffe Draper and come up with some really startling new information. Then again maybe not. But keep trying. This is not supposed to be like UTube or MySpace or even The History Channel but a forum for real research. How long does it take to attain "celebrity status"? 10 maybe 15 years if you are lucky and open minded and persistent and are following the right tracks and talking to the right people. Drop a dime and call someone. When they go to a JFK conference, network with them.

Start with the printed historical record, formulate a theory then a thesis and send up a trial balloon. Talk to the

neice of Andrij Melnyk and find out how to pronounce that darn name, you might be surprised what you discover.

Talk to the right people or better yet, talk to the Right People, just listen to their vitriole their hyperbole their anger

and their frustration. Looking for Hate in All the Right Places? Well then you are barking up the Right Tree. Good

luck and Godspeed you all.

[John Simkin]

In answer to your first rhetorical, no. I think I made that clear. As were many during the depression, Hiss was drawn to the potential of socialism or communism as a possible solution. In restrospect, it was not, but many well-intentioned people held out such hope, at least until the dark side of Stalinism became apparent.

By 1948, the US was whooped into anti-Communist fervor, in part by some of the people you mention. In that atmosphere, the charges by Chambers seemed very sinister, perhaps more so than the reality of his relationship with Hiss. I understand why Hiss sought to minimize his relationship with Chambers. And the world situation became even more polarized during the Hiss trials. And I don't doubt that Weyl, Levine, Massing, Bentley, Chambers and others constituted a dangerous cadre of professional ex-commies who were very loose in their charges.

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

A person who knew Hiss well confirms that he was very sympathetic to communism in the 1930s.

As to the substance of Chambers's charges that Hiss was an agent, the evidence is unclear. There are others named by Chambers who later suggested that Hiss was sympathetic to what they were doing; and there is a person in the Venona messages who MAY have been Hiss. But Hiss gets a presumption of innocence in the absence of proof.

So I agree that the professional ex-communists were an untrustworthy bunch, and that Hiss got caught up in an era of such fervor, but his attempt to minimize his connection with Chambers cost him dearly.

I have reposted this on the Alger Hiss thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11382

Maybe Owen could post his replies there as well. As I have said before, information on the thread on Hiss appears in the index and on my Spartacus page. If you want researchers to read your comments it needs to be on this thread.

Owen, you still have not added your photograph as avatar. If you do not do this you will be placed on moderation and your posts will be blocked.

[Tim Gratz]

John B is clearly a bitter and hateful man. That explains, I believe, his vitriol.

[Guest Gary Loughran]

In answer to your first rhetorical, no. I think I made that clear. As were many during the depression, Hiss was drawn to the potential of socialism or communism as a possible solution. In restrospect, it was not, but many well-intentioned people held out such hope, at least until the dark side of Stalinism became apparent.

By 1948, the US was whooped into anti-Communist fervor, in part by some of the people you mention. In that atmosphere, the charges by Chambers seemed very sinister, perhaps more so than the reality of his relationship with Hiss. I understand why Hiss sought to minimize his relationship with Chambers. And the world situation became even more polarized during the Hiss trials. And I don't doubt that Weyl, Levine, Massing, Bentley, Chambers and others constituted a dangerous cadre of professional ex-commies who were very loose in their charges.

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

A person who knew Hiss well confirms that he was very sympathetic to communism in the 1930s.

As to the substance of Chambers's charges that Hiss was an agent, the evidence is unclear. There are others named by Chambers who later suggested that Hiss was sympathetic to what they were doing; and there is a person in the Venona messages who MAY have been Hiss. But Hiss gets a presumption of innocence in the absence of proof.

So I agree that the professional ex-communists were an untrustworthy bunch, and that Hiss got caught up in an era of such fervor, but his attempt to minimize his connection with Chambers cost him dearly.

I have reposted this on the Alger Hiss thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11382

Maybe Owen could post his replies there as well. As I have said before, information on the thread on Hiss appears in the index and on my Spartacus page. If you want researchers to read your comments it needs to be on this thread.

Owen, you still have not added your photograph as avatar. If you do not do this you will be placed on moderation and your posts will be blocked.

John.

FYI, Owen has said he will put up an avatar shortly, he has lost the one he previously used on hiatus.

Upon acknowledgement, I'll delete this post

Gary

[Stephen Roy]

All of this having been said, I believe Hiss lied when he initially said he did not recognize Chambers; and that is what constituted the legal charge of perjury.

Yes, because he had known Chambers under another name ("George Crosley" according to Hiss, and "Carl" according to Chambers, although Chambers later allowed that Hiss was possibly correct) and had not yet had a face-to-face meeting with him. When he finally had the face-to-face meeting, he identified him as George Crosley after a physical examination.

Hiss sublet his apartment to Chambers and sold/gave him a car. How he swear he never knew him years later?

Edited November 4, 2007 by Stephen Roy