The Farce Forum

[Charles Drago]

I keep getting told "we are at war." Frankly, I disagree. But fine if you want to believe that way. I am not going to call you names or say you're paranoid. That's your prerogative.

Dear Courtney,

How exactly would you prefer to describe the events in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63?

I describe what happened as a battle. I describe the relevant actions of noble people like Harold Weisberg, Mary Ferrell, Peter Dale Scott, Sylvia Meagher, George Michael Evica as returning the fire.

John Kennedy was not paranoid in the last seconds of his life -- although he was, for the briefest of moments, beside himself.

Education equals liberation -- from ignorance, invalid preconceived notions, and political and spiritual enslavement.

Again, what is it that you'd like us to believe happened in D.P.? Were forces aligned against each other? Was an attack made upon the representative of one by representatives of the other? What was/is at stake? What strategies, tactics, and weapons are utilized by these forces?

Do tell.

Charles Drago

Edited November 14, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Denis Pointing]

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

Reasoning ability was given to us all. Deciding the veracity of posts--separating the wheat from the chaff--is part of the fun of being here, I think. Sharpens your skills as a critical thinker. Scholarship depends on those critical thinking skills and being able to keep an open mind.

Most who post at this end of the Education Forum, namely the JFK Assassination section are NOT interested in scholarship, critical thinking, or teaching about [or concerning] the assassination. Most here are beyond reason. Most here understand that the WCR IS the "chaff". And finally, most of us do NOT consider this FUN. In fact some consider this W-A-R.

There are as many agendas here as there are posters. Yes, even John Simkin and Andy Walker have agenda -- and I suspect you do too!

Welcome to the cover-up of the CENTURY

When Courtney speaks of "fun" all she really means is she enjoys researching here. We all obviously do or we wouldn't be here. The girl meant no harm. Give her a break.

[Michael Hogan]

Beats the Myra-Dawn team any day.

That's a matter of opinion.

Sorry--I don't want this thread to devolve into personalities.

That sounds so sincere.

Note Dawn does not mount a rational argument to Tom's points; all she does is mount a personal attack. And Myra jumps in to second it.

Do you need evidences of Tom Purvis' mean-spirited attacks on virtually everyone that does not agree with him that there was "no missed shot?"

Give me the Myra-Dawn team over the Gratz-Purvis team any day.

[Myra Bronstein]

Courtney,

If you are talking about what Myra said(referring to a xxxxx), I certainly don't think she meant you. She was talking about some other folks perceived by her to constantly create problems that inhibit unification.

She's full of "spit and vinegar", and we don't see eye to eye more often that we do, but I can tell you to a certainty--if she were speaking about you, you would know it. She doesn't mince words.

Kathy

Kathy is 100% correct Courtney. I was not saying or implying that you are a xxxxx.

Regarding whether or not we are at war--the Big Bad blew President Kennedy's head off. And that was just the shot across the bow that preceded: the literal war in Vietnam that JFK rejected, the systematic slaughter of our greatest leaders in the sixties (i.e., RFK, MLK, Malcolm X) by the gangsters that took over our government, the trashing of the constitution and bill of rights, and decades of propaganda about John Kennedy and what he stood for and why he was murdered. So I'll exercise that prerogative you so generously gave me to reiterate that we are at war.

I'm glad you're having fun here but don't assume it's fun for everyone. I'm also glad you're here to learn. We have that in common.

[Charles Drago]

I've missed you, Myra.

[Myra Bronstein]

I've missed you, Myra.

NOW I'm having fun.

Thanks Charles.

[Courtney Redd]

[

Kathy is 100% correct Courtney. I was not saying or implying that you are a xxxxx.

Regarding whether or not we are at war--the Big Bad blew President Kennedy's head off. And that was just the shot across the bow that preceded: the literal war in Vietnam that JFK rejected, the systematic slaughter of our greatest leaders in the sixties (i.e., RFK, MLK, Malcolm X) by the gangsters that took over our government, the trashing of the constitution and bill of rights, and decades of propaganda about John Kennedy and what he stood for and why he was murdered. So I'll exercise that prerogative you so generously gave me to reiterate that we are at war.

I'm glad you're having fun here but don't assume it's fun for everyone. I'm also glad you're here to learn. We have that in common.

Then you have my sincere apologies, Myra. I misunderstood your post.

However, I am not assuming anything. I was simply making a statement that was personal, that is all.

Onward and upward, as they say.

[Myra Bronstein]

[

Kathy is 100% correct Courtney. I was not saying or implying that you are a xxxxx.

Regarding whether or not we are at war--the Big Bad blew President Kennedy's head off. And that was just the shot across the bow that preceded: the literal war in Vietnam that JFK rejected, the systematic slaughter of our greatest leaders in the sixties (i.e., RFK, MLK, Malcolm X) by the gangsters that took over our government, the trashing of the constitution and bill of rights, and decades of propaganda about John Kennedy and what he stood for and why he was murdered. So I'll exercise that prerogative you so generously gave me to reiterate that we are at war.

I'm glad you're having fun here but don't assume it's fun for everyone. I'm also glad you're here to learn. We have that in common.

Then you have my sincere apologies, Myra. I misunderstood your post.

However, I am not assuming anything. I was simply making a statement that was personal, that is all.

Onward and upward, as they say.

No apology necessary Courtney. Sorry if I assumed you're assuming.

Onward and upward, yes. By all means.

[John Simkin]

As to "Isolationism",-----Been there, tried that, it did not work!

Not true, it worked very well. The US became isolationist after the First World War. The main figure in this was a man called Gerald Nye. He was a newspaper editor who called for a full investigation into the decision to go to war in 1917. Nye was one of the first people to identify the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex in the United States. Nye was elected to Congress in 1926 and immediately began to question the relationship between politicians and the armament manufacturers. In a speech in 1930, Nye argued: “That in nearly every war it is the people who bear the burdens and that it is not the people who cause wars bringing them no advantage, but that they are caused by fear and jealousy coupled with the purpose of men and interests who expect to profit by them.” (1)

On 8th February, 1934, Nye submitted a Senate Resolution calling for an investigation of the munitions industry by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee under Key Pittman of Nevada. Pittman disliked the idea and the resolution was referred to the Military Affairs Committee. It was eventually combined with one introduced earlier by Arthur H. Vandenberg of Michigan, who “sought to take the profits out of war”.

Public hearings before the Munitions Investigating Committee began on 4th September, 1934. In the reports published by the committee it was claimed that there was a strong link between the American government's decision to enter the First World War and the lobbying of the munitions industry. The committee was also highly critical of the nation's bankers. In a speech in 1936 Nye argued that "the record of facts makes it altogether fair to say that these bankers were in the heart and centre of a system that made our going to war inevitable". (2)

The Report on Activities and Sales of Munition Companies was published in April, 1936. It included the following passage: “Almost without exception, the American munitions companies investigated have at times resorted to such unusual approaches, questionable favours and commissions, and methods of 'doing the needful' as to constitute, in effect, a form of bribery of foreign governmental officials or of their close friends in order to secure business. These business methods carried within themselves the seeds of disturbance to the peace and stability of those nations in which they take place.” (3)

Nye helped to convince the American public that it was in the country's best interest to have an isolationist policy. Nye was the founder of the America First Committee. Nye told a meeting in Pennsylvania that the European war was not "worthy of the sacrifice of one American mule, much less one American son." He also argued that "Russia, Stalin and communist ideology" would eventually win from the Second World War. (4)

In a speech in August 1941, Nye claimed that the motion picture industry had "become the most gigantic engines of propaganda in existence to rouse the war fever in America and plunge this Nation to her destruction". He added that the movies were "not revealing the sons of mothers writhing in agony in trench, in mud, on barbed wire, amid scenes of battle or sons of mothers living legless, or lungless, or brainless, or sightless in hospitals." His commented that this approach was partly due to the large number of refugees and British actors working in the industry.

Pearl Harbor of course changed all that. America had no choice about entering the war now. The mood of the country changed and Nye lost his seat in Congress.

America should have returned to an isolationist policy after the war. It continues to spend more than it can afford playing the role of world policeman. Meanwhile, China spends it money building up its infrastructure while the American dollar goes into freefall.

1. Gerald Nye, speech at the Conference of Causes and Cures of War (January, 1930)

2. Gerald Nye, speech reported in the New York Times (10th February, 1936)

3. Senate Report on Activities and Sales of Munition Companies (April, 1936)

4. Gerald Nye, speech in Pennsylvania (15th April, 1940)

[Tim Gratz]

As usual, you are absolutely right, John.

The Marshall Plan was a ridiculous waste of US tax dollars on Europe.

And Douglas MacArthur wasted his time helping bring democracy to Japan.

And without the Korean Was, South Korea would today enjoy the marvelous economy and freedoms of North Korea.

Could not agree with you more. What a wonderful world it would be had America pursued an isolationist policy after WW II!

And the isolationist policies of Joe Kennedy and the Republican Party in the late thirties-early forties were also correct, no doubt.

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From a recent address by the President of France to the U.N.:

By Nicolas Sarkozy (The President of France)

The United States and France remain true to the memory of their common

history, true to the blood spilled by their children in common battles.

But they are not true merely to the memory of what they accomplished

together in the past. They remain true, first and foremost, to the same

ideal, the same principles, the same values that have always united

them.

Here, both the humblest and most illustrious citizens alike know that

nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. That's

what constitutes the moral value of America. America did not teach men the

idea of freedom; she taught them how to practice it. And she fought

for this freedom whenever she felt it to be threatened somewhere in the

world. It was by watching America grow that men and women understood

that freedom was possible.

What made America great was her ability to transform her own dream into

hope for all mankind.

..

The men and women of my generation heard their grandparents talk about

how in 1917, America saved France at a time when it had reached the

final limits of its strength, which it had exhausted in the most absurd

and bloodiest of wars.

The men and women of my generation heard their parents talk about how

in 1944, America returned to free Europe from the horrifying tyranny

that threatened to enslave it.

Fathers took their sons to see the vast cemeteries where, under

thousands of white crosses so far from home, thousands of young American

soldiers lay who had fallen not to defend their own freedom but the freedom

of all others, not to defend their own families, their own homeland,

but to defend humanity as a whole.

Fathers took their sons to the beaches where the young men of America

had so heroically landed. They read them the admirable letters of

farewell that those 20-year-old soldiers had written to their families before

the battle to tell them: "We don't consider ourselves heroes. We want

this war to be over. But however much dread we may feel, you can count

on us." Before they landed, Eisenhower told them: "The eyes of the

world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people

everywhere march with you."

And as they listened to their fathers, watched movies, read history

books and the letters of soldiers who died on the beaches of Normandy and

Provence, as they visited the cemeteries where the star-spangled banner

flies, the children of my generation understood that these young

Americans, 20 years old, were true heroes to whom they owed the fact that

they were free people and not slaves. France will never forget the

sacrifice of your children.

To those 20-year-old heroes who gave us everything, to the families of

those who never returned, to the children who mourned fathers they

barely got a chance to know, I want to express France's eternal gratitude.

On behalf of my generation, which did not experience war but knows how

much it owes to their courage and their sacrifice; on behalf of our

children, who must never forget; to all the veterans who are here today

and, notably the seven I had the honor to decorate yesterday evening, one

of whom, Senator Inouye, belongs to your Congress, I want to express

the deep, sincere gratitude of the French people. I want to tell you

that whenever an American soldier falls somewhere in the world, I think of

what the American army did for France. I think of them and I am sad,

as one is sad to lose a member of one's family.

[Tim Gratz]

Or, in the famous words of JFK himself:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that

we shall pay any price,

bear any burden,

meet any hardship,

support any friend,

and oppose any foe

to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

[Tim Gratz]

The America First Committee had an interesting cast of characters from across the political spectrum. This is from Wikipediia:

AFC was established September, 4, 1940 by Yale law student R. Douglas Stuart, Jr., along with other students including future President Gerald Ford, Sargent Shriver and future Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart. At its peak, America First may have had 800,000 members in 650 chapters, located mostly in a 300 mile radius of Chicago. It claimed 135,000 members in 60 chapters in Illinois, its strongest state. [schneider 198] Few Southern chapters existed. Fundraising drives produced about $370,000 from some 25,000 contributors. Nearly half came from a few millionaires such as William H. Regnery, H. Smith Richardson of the Vick Chemical Company, General Wood, publisher Joseph M. Patterson (New York Daily News) and his cousin publisher Robert R. McCormick (Chicago Tribune). It was never able to get funding for its own public opinion poll. The New York chapter received slightly more than $190,000, most of it from its 47,000 contributors. Since it never had a national membership form or national dues, and local chapters were quite autonomous, historians suggest the leaders had no idea how many "members" it had. [Cole 1953, 25-33; Schneider 201-2]

Serious organizing of the America First Committee took place in Chicago not long after the September 1940 establishment. Chicago was to remain the national headquarters of the committee. To preside over their committee, America First chose General Robert E. Wood, the 61 year-old chairman of Sears, Roebuck and Co.. While Wood would accept only an interim position, he remained at the head of the committee until it was disbanded in the days after Pearl Harbor.

The America First Committee had its share of prominent businessmen as well as the sympathies of political figures like Senator Burton K. Wheeler, Senator Gerald P. Nye, and Socialist Party leader Norman Thomas, with its most prominent spokesman being Charles A. Lindbergh.

Other celebrities supporting America First were novelist Sinclair Lewis, poet E. E. Cummings, author Gore Vidal (as a student at Phillips Exeter Academy), Alice Roosevelt Longworth, film producer Walt Disney and actress Lillian Gish. Architect Frank Lloyd Wright attempted to join, but the board thought he had a "reputation for immorality".

Gerald Ford and Senator Wheeler; Norman Thomas and Gore Vidal. And Sargent Shriver. What a strange group of bedfollows!

But they were as wrong then as John is now.

[Tim Gratz]

Conservative commentator Pat Buchanan has frequently praised America First and often uses its name as a slogan.

Now if I can only persuade John to accept some of Buchanan's other policies!

[Dawn Meredith]

Or, in the famous words of JFK himself:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that

we shall pay any price,

bear any burden,

meet any hardship,

support any friend,

and oppose any foe

to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

Yes Tm, JFK said those words, but you missed John's point entirely. I guess that is why you are still a right winger.

You really believe the US simply runs around exporting "democracy"? (Of course you have no response when it comes to Chile).

"Imperialism" is simply a word in a book about another time and place.

You really cannot see that the US has become the new Rome?

Dawn

[Tim Gratz]

No, John missed JFK's point.

But Dawn I wish it were as simple as you say, that the US could simply run around importing democracy. But there are those who do not want democracy since it runs counter to their selfish political or religious interests. Hence they will use terrorism to kill not only Americans but their fellow counterymen. But prevail we not only must but we will. And like it or not, the tide is turning in Iraq.

America, Dawn, is not the "new Rome". We use our coliseums to play rugby, not to feed the lions.