The mysterious role of Fred Crisman, Dallas tramp

[Tim Gratz]

To Mr. Caddy:

I am not sure that I understand your post.

The first sentence you posted in Post #1 stated that Crisman was one of the tramps arrested in DP.

Larry posted (I had read it before) that he had verified that Crisman was in Washington state on 11-22-1963. I assumed you did not know this. So Timothy Good did not do good work on the tramp issue.

To Dawn:

It seems all you do on the Forum is to post insults.

[Douglas Caddy]

To Mr. Caddy:

I am not sure that I understand your post.

The first sentence you posted in Post #1 stated that Crisman was one of the tramps arrested in DP.

Larry posted (I had read it before) that he had verified that Crisman was in Washington state on 11-22-1963. I assumed you did not know this. So Timothy Good did not do good work on the tramp issue.

To Dawn:

It seems all you do on the Forum is to post insults.

I am still in the midst of reading Timothy Good's new book, Need To Know. His documentation is impressive. However, in light of some of the postings here that contain concrete information that Crisman may not have been one of the Dallas tramps, I am writing author Good a letter, with a copy of the postings attached, to ask him what further documentation he might have to support his assertion.

My original posting is comprised 99.9 percent of quotations from Good's book, which is the source of the claim that Crisman was one of the tramps. I had never heard of Crisman before reading Good's book and hearing the author interviewed. My original posting brought out additional information about him from forum members who are better informed that I am.

I do not claim to be an expert researcher on the Kennedy assassination. I have learned a great deal from members since joining the forum, not only about the assassination but a whole host of other fascinating topics, which form a treasure trove of material deserved of further attention. I hazard to guess that there are a large number of individuals and groups out there who are very, very upset that information they thought was forever locked away in secret vaults is suddenly and continuously being thrust into the public light by forum members.

[Gary Buell]

JFK met secretly with George Adamski? I would certainly think, or hope, that JFK had better things to do. (Like meeting secretly with Marilyn Monroe.)

I remember reading Adamski's book in the early '50s (Flying Saucers Have Landed). The main thing I remember about it was the drawing of the beautiful Venusian woman whom Adamski met in the Southwest desert. A child could see that this was a hoax, which is just what I did (I was about 10 at the time).

The main thing I remember about Crisman in the Maury Island book is his claim that he once fought with laser-wielding underground beings called deros. (Brought back more memories from the early '50s, specifically of a sci-fi flick called The Mole Men.)

Like Adamski, Crisman reeked with credibility.

Actually, it was a beautiful Venusian man! Fred Crisman knew the Rev. Frank Stranges, another interesting UFO figure, who is I believe still alive.

[Gary Buell]

JFK met secretly with George Adamski? I would certainly think, or hope, that JFK had better things to do. (Like meeting secretly with Marilyn Monroe.)

I remember reading Adamski's book in the early '50s (Flying Saucers Have Landed). The main thing I remember about it was the drawing of the beautiful Venusian woman whom Adamski met in the Southwest desert. A child could see that this was a hoax, which is just what I did (I was about 10 at the time).

The main thing I remember about Crisman in the Maury Island book is his claim that he once fought with laser-wielding underground beings called deros. (Brought back more memories from the early '50s, specifically of a sci-fi flick called The Mole Men.)

Like Adamski, Crisman reeked with credibility.

Actually, it was a beautiful Venusian man! Fred Crisman knew the Rev. Frank Stranges, another interesting UFO figure, who is I believe still alive.

I was mistaken. I contacted Frank Stranges and he never met Crisman, which is a shame as they would seem to have so much in common. He did and still does know Thomas Beckham and gave me a phone number for him if anyone wants to give him a call.

[Wim Dankbaar]

"On the day of the assassination there were several individuals removed from the train other than the three individuals previously arrested."

David Harkness, D.P.D. officer

Source: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

It may be that Doyle, Gedney and Abrams were arrested that day, although their stories do not match up with those of the arresting officers. But more importantly the time of their apprehension from the railroad car (a flatbed coal gondola, according to them, a boxcar according to the officers) does not match up with the shadows on the tramp photos, which prove a much later time than described in the Gedney, Doyle, Abrams tales.

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm

Therefore, the shadows are irrefutable evidence that the tramps in the photographs are NOT Gedney, Doyle and Abrams.

This cannot be attacked or countered with any chance of success, which is why it won't be. It will simply be ignored by the disinformationalists like Dave Perry, Gary Mack and John McAdams.

Wim

Edited March 27, 2008 by Wim Dankbaar

[Duke Lane]

... So many members fail to realize that debunking myths is in fact an important contribution to the search for the truth. ... this is a good demonstration of how false information spreads. Once it gets out there, unless a writer is a careful researcher like Larry, it gets repeated and the more often it is repeated the more believable it appears to be.

A noble sentiment, to be sure, but not entirely accurate, Tim, since sometimes even a thorough debunking doesn't stem the flow of false information.

While few people any longer believe that David Atlee Phillips was under arrest in Fort Worth on November 22, the rumor of Roscoe White's involvement in the killing persists. These are relatively benign examples inasmuch as nobody stands to profit in any way - financially or otherwise - by continuing to push those stories.

The same is not true of those who insist that others were involved or were witnesses. Cases in point include James Files and Ed Hoffman, to name but two (should we include Lee Oswald here?). In the latter case, it seems like no sooner had I published my Freeway Man analysis of Hoffman's story than two new authors appeared at the 2007 November in Dallas conference to "add to" Ed's already "definitive" account of his experience in Eyewitness.

(I, incidentally, was initially invited, then disinvited when the gist of Freeway Man became known, tho' ostensibly for different reasons.)

Ed admits that his story cannot be proven, that people can only take it on faith ... and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, even folks like the normally dispassionate Bill Miller won't let loose of the story.

So, in my humble opinion, even debunking by careful researchers doesn't keep false information from spreading, keeps getting repeated, and appears to be "more believable" by its repetition ... as long as there's someone out there who wants to keep repeating it in the face of all odds.

[Wim Dankbaar]

This is a memorable quote by Duke Lane:

So, in my humble opinion, even debunking by careful researchers doesn't keep false information from spreading, keeps getting repeated, and appears to be "more believable" by its repetition ... as long as there's someone out there who wants to keep repeating it in the face of all odds.

Duke, I appreciated Freeway Man very much. Thought it was skillfully and thoroughly done. You suggest that a similar conclusion would hold through for James Files. If you have thought this over really well, could you do an essay like Freeway Man on him?

Wim

[Duke Lane]

... You suggest that a similar conclusion would hold through for James Files. If you have thought this over really well, could you do an essay like Freeway Man on him?

Thanks for the kudos, Wim, but I'd no more presume to delve into that than I would, say, the Roscoe White story. It's already been done; what could I add?

[Wim Dankbaar]

Duke , you say it's already been done.

Does that mean that based on what's out there on Files like:

http://davesjfk.com/lettermn.html

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/files.htm

your conclusion is that Files is not credible? Which particular statement below do you deem credible?

Wim

1. Files claims he was involved with the mob as part of "The Chicago Family" (by timelines after September 1960). He indicated the mob was headed by Tony Accardo and that "(Sam) Giancana was an underling to Accardo."

Tony Accardo turned control of the Chicago mob over to Sam "Mooney" Gianciana in the summer of 1955.

2. Files claims he served in Laos with the 82nd Airborne conducting training of that countries' soldiers in "mechanical ambushes."

Because of the jungle's "triple tree canopy" airborne operations were futile. Helicopter gun ships were used instead. Additionally, he mispronounces the name given the people of Laos as Latoatians. Something which would give great offense to these proud people.

3. Files claims he was recruited for CIA operations in April 1961 by David Atlee Phillips.

In 1961Phillips was Chief of Covert Action in Mexico City and additionally ran the CIA's "propaganda shop." He had nothing to do with CIA recruitment.

4. Files claims responsibility for training some of the Bay of Pigs soldiers at the behest of the CIA and David Atlee Phillips. He describes the training as taking place in the Everglades.

The preparation of invasion forces for the Bay of Pigs took place in Guatemala.

5. Files indicates training for the Bay of Pigs incursion took place at No Name Key in the Everglades.

No Name Key is located about 25 miles east of Key West and about 50 air miles across Florida Bay from the Everglades. This is a distinction that would surely be known to someone actually involved in those covert operations.

6. On the morning of November 22, 1963 Files sits at a counter stool in a "pancake house just off the major highway." He observes a meeting between Jack Ruby and John Roselli during which Ruby passes a "5X9 manila envelope" to Roselli. Later Files discovers the envelope contains "Secret Service identification and a map of the motorcade route." Roselli quips "They only made one change." Files reveals the alteration was the "little zig zag onto Elm they never should have made."

Stories of last minute changes in the motorcade route are pure fabrications. The actual route was approved on Monday, November 18, 1963 and published in both The Dallas Morning News and Dallas Times Herald on November 19, 1963 three full days before the alleged meeting between Ruby and Roselli.

Click Here For Additional Information

7. Files claimed he hit Kennedy by firing one shot into Kennedy's left (that's correct left) temple.

The alleged "grassy Knoll" shot struck Kennedy in the right side of the head. Files claimed he fired a .222 bullet from his pistol - a Remington XP-100. Experts who own this pistol claim it's not a good weapon in this situation. "It kicks like a mule and sounds like a cannon." Ballistics tests, as well as, ear witnesses would certainly be able to identify the distinctive sound.

8. Files claims he fired only one shot, bit the bullet and left it on the picket fence as "a sort of a calling card."

Not one but two shell casings were discovered in Dealey Plaza. One approximately 60 feet ENE of the one Files claims he left.

Press Here To View The Map Prepared By The Discoverer Of The Shells

Additionally, a Houston, Texas Orthodontist claimed the bullet did have teeth marks on it. The Orthodontist has recanted claiming the question was not asked properly. It could be incisor tooth marks but of either animal or human origin or it could simply be a dent in the casing.

9. Assassination witness Malcolm Summers claims he saw someone fitting Files description carrying a strange weapon.

By Files own version he returned the weapon to its' case immediately after the shooting and as he fled the assassination scene he took a route that was not within Summers field of view.

10. In Summers' voluntary statement of 11/23/63 he indicated he returned to his truck "15 to 20 minutes" after the assassination. He then walked to his truck parked on Houston Street and left. Near the Houston Street viaduct he saw three slender men who appeared excited in a maroon 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet sedan. They drove over the Houston Street Viaduct and turned onto Marsalis Avenue.

Files claims he returned to a parking lot next to the DalTex building where he met his passengers, Roselli and Nicoletti. Files drove off making a right turn on Houston Street and then proceeded "5 to 6 blocks to a major street, took a left went a few more blocks by the expressway . . ." First, if Files did make a right turn from the parking lot ( it appears the described parking lot did not actually exist) onto Houston he would be going in the opposite direction from that of Summers. Summers would have never seen the vehicle driven by Files.

Secondly, if Files made a left turn and proceeded "5 to 6 blocks to a major street, took a left went a few more blocks by the expressway . . ." he would still have made a turn short of the Houston Viaduct.

Either way the Files/Summers descriptions of this event do not match!

The Dallas Times Hearld of December 4, 1963

contains a photograph that contradicts two of Files' claims!

Press Here To Link To That Article

Copyright Ó 1997 by David B. Perry All rights reserved

[Tim Gratz]

No Name Key is north of Key West, not east. But so far as I have determined there was never any training for the BOP on No Name Key. (No Name Key is of course the name for No Name Key so despite what its name proclaims No Name Key in fact has a name.) But Perry is correct--no one who has been to NNK would place it in the Everglades!

Edited April 2, 2008 by Tim Gratz

[Duke Lane]

Duke, you say it's already been done.

Does that mean that based on what's out there on Files like:

http://davesjfk.com/lettermn.html

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/files.htm

... your conclusion is that Files is not credible? Which particular statement below do you deem credible? ...

... Copyright © 1997 by David B. Perry All rights reserved

As tired as I am, all I can suggest is that what you've cited has to stand on its own merits without my additional input. If you have problems with what you've cited, then you refute it with your own facts. Ees not my yob, mon. I'm not your or anyone else's straw man.

At least Ed's supporters admit that there's no way to prove his claims, that they're taking it on faith because he's really a decent guy after all (a sentiment with which I agree ... but this isn't a "sentimental" case, is it?). They've written two non-sellers about it; I'm sure you can do the same.

Ed is supposedly only a witness, not a perpetrator. If Files' story were true, the only responsible path you could beat is to a court of competent jurisdiction to nail the sumbinch. I don't believe - on faith - that you can or will. So, to me, it's a non-story right from the git-go. Prove me wrong. Hanging the story out there for someone else to buy doesn't do it for me.

Turn in the killer and make your money back on the lecture circuit after the conviction. I guarantee you WILL be famous for breaking the case at last; how could you disagree? Mark Lane reportedly did fairly well, didn't he? Unless, of course, you don't think it's do-able?

According to the copyright notice on Perry's article, you've had ten years to do it. Why not?

Incidentally, this is your can of worms; I didn't open it, you did. Besides, there's no blood in a turnip. FWIW.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Ed is supposedly only a witness, not a perpetrator. If Files' story were true, the only responsible path you could beat is to a court of competent jurisdiction to nail the sumbinch. I don't believe - on faith - that you can or will. So, to me, it's a non-story right from the git-go. Prove me wrong. Hanging the story out there for someone else to buy doesn't do it for me.

Duke, you may have missed that I was not the first to investigate James Files. As a matter of fact Joe West located Files based on a tip from an FBI agent. Joe West was doing exactly what you suggest untill his untimely death.

Any suggestions how I should revive his action as a non American? As I understand, an American organisation as COPA is even struggling to get a Grand Jury together. Could it be that your advise is easier given than done?

On the other issue, it's hard to prove you wrong if you don't specify what's wrong in your view.

Wim

[Duke Lane]

Duke, you may have missed that I was not the first to investigate James Files. As a matter of fact Joe West located Files based on a tip from an FBI agent. Joe West was doing exactly what you suggest untill his untimely death.

Any suggestions how I should revive his action as a non American? As I understand, an American organisation as COPA is even struggling to get a Grand Jury together. Could it be that your advise is easier given than done? ...

Write a book, Wim. Bring your client's guilt before a court of competent jurisdiction and get him extradited. Nobody said it would be an easy row to hoe.

I don't expect people to sing my praises when I'm dead unless I deserve it. Dying doesn't make one more deserving. The lack of mutual admiration between Joe West, Bob Vernon and I was well documented back in the CompuServe JFKFORUM days. I can't imagine there's anything else to add; can you?

Frankly, I'm too busy to bother at the moment, and my lack of response doesn't strengthen Files' position one itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny, polka-dotted iota.

No straw man here.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Duke Lane

[Wim Dankbaar]

Ah, I understand, old wounds with Vernon are in the way. He was piece of work indeed.

Wim

[Scott Deitche]

1. Files claims he was involved with the mob as part of "The Chicago Family" (by timelines after September 1960). He indicated the mob was headed by Tony Accardo and that "(Sam) Giancana was an underling to Accardo."

Tony Accardo turned control of the Chicago mob over to Sam "Mooney" Gianciana in the summer of 1955.

Acutally it was likely in 1957, and though Accardo let Giancana, and other men like Joe Doves Aiuppa and Jackie Cerone, take the Acting boss slot, he was always the power behind the scenes and orchestrated much of the Outfit's operations and criminal enterprises. That's the prevailing feeling of most of the OUtfit specialists I know.

BTW, like Trafficante, JOe Batters did not spend time in prison.