Who were the shooters?

[Myra Bronstein]

What's left Ashton?

Why, Myra: I haven't taken any of your toys away from you. You and Ditto have everything you've had for the past 43 years.

I've merely made my own observations about some parts of it that I consider garbage, and have said why. I haven't asked you or anyone to agree.

You still have all the "testimony" and "experts" and "evidence" that you and the world have had available for 43 years. I wouldn't dream of taking even the tiniest scintilla or mote of it away from you.

In fact, my lay advice is for you and Ditto to stick with it completely, ignore the films completely, and ignore every image and word I have posted in this forum. I think you'll both feel better generally.

Ashton

Well I'm not surprised that you shift the focus to generalities Ashton. When the discussion get's specific, i.e., the words of expert marksman Craig Roberts, you seem unable to deal with it in a logical and open-minded manner. Instead you dismiss the evidence, or dismiss the people presenting the evidence.

[Ashton Gray]

What's left Ashton?

Why, Myra: I haven't taken any of your toys away from you. You and Ditto have everything you've had for the past 43 years.

I've merely made my own observations about some parts of it that I consider garbage, and have said why. I haven't asked you or anyone to agree.

You still have all the "testimony" and "experts" and "evidence" that you and the world have had available for 43 years. I wouldn't dream of taking even the tiniest scintilla or mote of it away from you.

In fact, my lay advice is for you and Ditto to stick with it completely, ignore the films completely, and ignore every image and word I have posted in this forum. I think you'll both feel better generally.

Ashton

Well I'm not surprised that you shift the focus to generalities Ashton. When the discussion get's specific, i.e., the words of expert marksman Craig Roberts, you seem unable to deal with it in a logical and open-minded manner. Instead you dismiss the evidence, or dismiss the people presenting the evidence.

Myra, please: be as critical as you want, be as abrasive as you want, be downright brutal, but please, please don't be disingenuous. It's beneath you. You've demonstrated conclusively that you are capable of so much more.

I very specifically addressed "the words of expert marksman Craig Roberts" several times in this thread, and that was several times more than I thought it deserved. But I did, because it kept getting shoved in my face like a communion wafer. I addressed it: I spit it out. It's in the record. I expressed exactly and unequivocally my opinion of his opinion. And that's all it ever was and ever will be: his opinion.

Now, I'm very in tune with the fact that "'Expert' Worship" is one of the primary religions in the world today. All the talking heads on TV, and every rag on the newstands bilk the world for billions every year selling us the latest, greatest "expert" on everything from zits to warfare to cancer to panty lines.

And this may come as a shock to you, but it really wasn't a life-changing news flash to me that such mere opinion is listened to with open-mouthed awe in so-called courts of law (the couplet is a set-up for...): but so was Johnnie Cochran.

As to Mr. Expert Marksman Craig Roberts, how can I make you understand my viewpoint of what he opined if you don't understand it by now? Do you think somehow that your publically berating me about it is magically going to change my opinion of his opinion? If so, please quit wasting your time. It isn't.

I look—for myself—at the area. I look—for myself—at the number of unsecured windows facing it. I look—for myself—at the sheer number of cars that multiple sources say were parked back there, and on which there is not a word of argument. I look—for myself—at an area surround on all sides by wide open spaces of broad daylight with no protected escape routes. I look—for myself—at an observation tower staring down directly on the location. I look—for myself—at two policemen stationed all morning just seconds away. I look—for myself—at five potential witnesses standing close enough to those locations to whisper to. And I've made my own adjudication of the suitability of that area as one that would have been chosen to gun down the President of the United States in cold blood, in broad daylight.

And by my own observation using the means available to me that I consider valid, I personally find the entire idea so overburdened with liabilities and potential risks that it not only is ludicrous to me, it is grotesquely preposterous. Codswollop. Goofy. Idiotic. Comical. Risible. Suicidal.

I'm genuinely, sincerely, deeply sorry if that offends you in some way. And apparently it has. It has no intent to offend in it. It merely is my own personal integrity to observe and state what I observe, for myself—without first going and asking some "expert" if it's all right for me to observe and think for myself. There is no aspersion being cast on you or on anyone by my keeping my own counsel, is there?

I hope not. I hope you would have sufficient personal integrity to do the same. And I certainly value your observations. I think you're quite clever and observant.

But on this specific issue, if you are going to keep attempting to require me to become an endorsing member of the Craig Roberts Fan Club, do us both a favor and just quit pulling the Ashton Gray lever. It ain't going to happen.

In the immortal words of George, from "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf":

"Now, Martha: I will carry your gin bottles out after midnight, and I will hold your hand when the boogie man comes, but I will not—repeat: not—light your cigarettes. And that, as they say, is that."

Ashton

Edited December 6, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Myra Bronstein]

...

But on this specific issue, if you are going to keep attempting to require me to become an endorsing member of the Craig Roberts Fan Club, do us both a favor and just quit pulling the Ashton Gray lever. It ain't going to happen.

...

No, just want you to be logical and fair, and dismissing someone's words because they wrote a book is neither.

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

[Ashton Gray]

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Aw, vous dites cela à tous les garçons.

Hugs back, kiddo.

Ashton

[Myra Bronstein]

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Aw, vous dites cela à tous les garçons.

Hugs back, kiddo.

Ashton

Woo hoo! Group kiss! Gettin' there gettin' there, now...

If I may break-in on this little tete-a-tete.....

Doh!

I think there is merit in Ashton's case and in the more standard model of the assassination. Most of what we 'saw' and 'see' and analyze was/is as 'real' as any magic trick....ie an illusion to divert attention from the real work at hand. Granted. And clever they were...but they did slip up on a few things....LHO winding up alive [talking] in jail and a few others.....and from these slip-ups we can gain clues. They loaded the Plaza with multiple teams and players - most who had no function but to forever confuse.

That's very true. I agree that the tactic of diversion was well utilized. I have a hard time remembering sources 'cause of the volume of reading, but I think it was Larry who wrote about a gun barrel coming out of the TSBD floor six window and speculated it was diversionary.

The oft repeated "smoke and mirrors" applies.

Of course, there were real teams and players who did real things there and other who planned before and covered-up [and killed] after. I have been reading the [i hope] better JFK tomes and state-of-the-art research for many a decade now and I find that some things discovered rather quickly by some very perceptive souls [Jones, Garrison, White, Weisburg, some witnesses, and others] have stood the test of time. Other ideas have slowly been moulded into a clearer and clearer picture [at least in my mind]. I think we are very close to seeing the structure and the fine details are of interest, but not so important...

Agreed. Tho' some things merit analysis IMO 'cause they'll be referenced by the uninformed and gullible. For example people will throw the Zapruder film around and say something couldn't have occured 'cause the film doesn't show it. I think it's helpful to be able to quickly demonstrate why that film is suspect.

if you can prove conspiracy with a capital C and that it came from inside the National Security Beast you really don't need to know the bullet numbers and angles, etc. But they add to the proof. We each have our areas of expertise and interest [and sometimes obsession]. Some like to look at minutia and players, others to stand back and look at the 'big picture' and puppet masters. Fine.

There are many idiots, fakes, finks, and disinformation persons on this...but many others [whatever their persuasion] mean well [to find the Truth and make the vital change back to democracy and rule of law, justice, etc. through information].

Well I'm a big picture kinda person myself. Though I think any area of study by someone with sincere interest is of merit and there is enough mystery to go around. My particular interest is linking President Kennedy's murder with subsequent and current events and the emergence of the US as a fascist country. But if people hadn't discredited the official stories then we'd have nothing to build on to illustrate the bigger picture.

My only problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against.

Let's not fight, but rather try to have some synergy of purpose and deed toward our goal.

Oh, gotta take issue with that big guy. We fight then we make up! See?

Group... whatever.

[John Dolva]

"problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against." true, Myra, and there is much to guard against and a discussion of such things is always helpful.

I was a bit hesitant to compare humans to sheep (or boids for that matter) especially where the "independence of the individual" is so revered. However there is a similarity. Politics itself depends on it. So an aversion to the notion shouldn't deny it as a factor. Politics, again, depends on and appeals to that aversion. Accepting the notion equanimously enables using it to understand how a huge percentage of people who could not have heard where the shots came from, or saw anything with their own eyes end up at the GK. I can imagine reasonably that some people in position to do so would use such insight to cause such a stampede which then forevermore not only in those who were there, but anyone who follow the events, then, and later, would focus on the GK.

Interestingly, individuals who were close to the knoll at the time of the shots did not join in this 'flocking'.

_________

The history of human endeavour is replete with examples of truth measured by the number of adherents, the volume of their acclaim, or the strength or power of it's guardians, all examples of peer or herd behaviour. Significant advances are very often made by lone individuals who value truth higher than to allow it to be a measure of anything except itself. Equanimity is a valuable companion. This effectively nullifies the 'feel factor' and brings the fact into focus.

__________

An aside: this crowd photo existed uncropped. The usual cropped version shows sufficient clarity to make the cropped out person of interest. Is the full version hi-res available?

(image)

[Dawn Meredith]

...

But on this specific issue, if you are going to keep attempting to require me to become an endorsing member of the Craig Roberts Fan Club, do us both a favor and just quit pulling the Ashton Gray lever. It ain't going to happen.

...

No, just want you to be logical and fair, and dismissing someone's words because they wrote a book is neither.

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Ditto, re the group hug I mean. All this sniping is wearing me down. I'm the resident, unabashed "let's all try to get along and slolve this damn thing" optimist.

Dawn

[Jack White]

...

But on this specific issue, if you are going to keep attempting to require me to become an endorsing member of the Craig Roberts Fan Club, do us both a favor and just quit pulling the Ashton Gray lever. It ain't going to happen.

...

No, just want you to be logical and fair, and dismissing someone's words because they wrote a book is neither.

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Ditto, re the group hug I mean. All this sniping is wearing me down. I'm the resident, unabashed "let's all try to get along and slolve this damn thing" optimist.

Dawn

Ashton has his own "groupies"...darn, all I attract are provocateurs.

Jack

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='Jack White' date='Dec 6 2006, 11:32 PM' post='84069']

...

But on this specific issue, if you are going to keep attempting to require me to become an endorsing member of the Craig Roberts Fan Club, do us both a favor and just quit pulling the Ashton Gray lever. It ain't going to happen.

...

No, just want you to be logical and fair, and dismissing someone's words because they wrote a book is neither.

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Ditto, re the group hug I mean. All this sniping is wearing me down. I'm the resident, unabashed "let's all try to get along and slolve this damn thing" optimist.

Dawn

Ashton has his own "groupies"...darn, all I attract are provocateurs.

Jack

Jack, but we all REALLy love you! (And Ashton has more than his share of provocateurs).

Dawn

[Myra Bronstein]

Jack, but we all REALLy love you! (And Ashton has more than his share of provocateurs).

Dawn

Very true. Love and revere I might add. C'mon now Jack, group... handshake.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Myra Bronstein

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

This may or may not be of any interest, but what I believe I may see ..

QUOTE

Bernice: "One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??"

Ashton Quote :"My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.".....B:always......

*******************

My thoughts on the Zapruder and the Nix films, are as follows....at this time.

There were frames cut out of the Zapruder film as well as the Nix....therefore they are both altered...changed.....to what was their true state.....once touched they became obsolete within the studies, in trying to solve the assassination in the area....of the head shots.... as we do not know, exactly where, nor how many frames were exorcised....therefore to try to study the assassination and the head shots within, becomes a exercise in futility.....as well as frustration...

That, I am thinking is the why it was done.... that with some frames, several, one or two whatever , if they were cut out of the Zapruder as well as the Nix and in the crucial head shot areas..and we do not know positively that they were not.......we may have no possibility of proving nor solving the assassination in that particluar area, ever...Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the films, photos and all.....I have become a collector..

Why would they hold the Zapruder film as they did as well as the Nix, which as was not released..either..?.......Oh ,perhaps for want of a better word, so that we would be completely taken in by them..

Our need being so great as well as our our exuberance, when they finally were, that we would and did throw caution to the wind.....We choose to overlook, what we perhaps saw as any faults within, until some researchers began their studies within.....Perhaps we were thinking, now that we had the films the case could be solved...........exactly as they knew all would......??

It sure did not work out that way, and has done nothing but cause more dissension ....as intended, I believe.....The Zapruder wars have been raging ever since....

I do not know, positively, but they played and continue to play the game, and they also only release what they want us to see and hear....at any given time...

Just some thoughts...

***************************

In studying.....Just : The Dealey Witnesses & Parkland:

The eye witnesses information from Dealey Plaza, along with the Doctors, Nurses, Clint Hill, and others that saw the head wound at Parkland along with their medical first day statements at the hospital....

They Comply...

In studying .......Just :

The Zapruder film, along with the findings of Betheda and the autopsy..They Comply....

In studying......

The later witness that came forth some years later with their siteings and information re Bethesda, such as Dennis David, and O'Connor.....Comply with neither...

There appears to be three separate scenarios..but never correlating .....together...and never will..

That in imo, is where the many problems lie, in all, and why the forever dissent which causes the intended divisions amongst the JFK researchers, and the way it was all deliberately set up..to enact that discord......

By doing so, we are fulfilling, exactly what their well laid plans intended...imo..

***************************

Below is the RR Toolbox, ( see white box on left, at back in the Marguerite Oswald photo) that Ed Hoffman spoke of where he saw from a distance a RR worker, catch a rifle thrown to him by the man that Lee Bowers mentions, that you have inserted in your re-creation, at the North end of the fence...along with the younger man, the man then turned and walked back along the fence.....Bowers I believe mentions the RRworker in the general area, but no specifics...in his taped interview with Lane..

"Bowers testified that at the time of the motorcade on November 22, he was located in the Union Terminal Tower in the railroad yard.(182) When asked what people he noticed standing between the tower and Elm Street at the underpass on the high ground, Bowers stated that he saw two man standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other.(183) One of them was middle aged, heavy set, and was wearing a white shirt and dark trousers.(184) The other man was in his mid-twenties, wearing either a plaid shirt or a plaid jacket.(185) Bowers said those two men were directly in his line of vision toward the mouth of the underpass and appeared to be watching the progress of the motorcade.(186) Bowers said he saw the man in the white shirt standing there at the time of the shots, but that he could not see the younger man in the plaid clothing because of the trees, which made him harder to distinguish.(187) "

"Bowers said that at that point a motorcycle officer ran up the incline toward the trees in the general area of where the two men were standing;( see two fence Officer Hargis areas photos ) Bowers said there was some kind of commotion at that place, but that he did not know what had happened.(188) "

See also view of Bowers below...

Link further below.

**************************

Roof of Post Office Annex Building..Jesse Price

In the Mark Lane video, as close as I can relate to you, as I am not able to capture the frames from the videos, perhaps some day....

..Jesse Price is seen and it appears to be perhaps towards the middle of the Post Office Terminal Annex Building roof, south side of Dealey..( see Map below ) .along with Mark Lane "Rush to Judgement" video, he sits on the edge, and points towards the middle of the fence area, in that general area, where about Hatman and the smoke is seen...and speaks of a young man running from that specific area, with something in his hand, he also mentions that it could possibley have been a radio...He runs across the tracks, towards the railroad cars ,turning and then disappearing out of site, but down towards the street that leads towards the back of the TSBD...You have hatman in your re-creation...in that general area, I believe, where the smoke is seen approximately..but I believe he needs to be moved more towards the middle of the fence somewhat...??..but not according to the Nix clip ??..when shown the spot that he saw the smoke drift from, by Sam Hoffman he, and Mark Lane seem to be standing between trees, and just to the left perhaps ten-to fifteen feet or so, of the last sign..looking from behind the fence, leading to the underpass, Sam also states that is approximately where he saw JFK take the hit to the head..

*********************************

Smoke:

After studying the smoke again , in the photos, it appears to be drifting, and I am thinking that is the reason it appears so large, it is dissipating, there was a wind that day in the Plaza, it would not have appeared as such when it first left the barrel..but the wind would have carried it..

Mr. Holland. There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. Stern. What number would that have been in the -

Mr. Holland. Well, that would - they were so close together.

Mr. Stern. The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. Holland. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth.

Tom Dillard, photographer, Mrs. Earle Cabell..Mrs.Donald Baker, P.O Earle Brown, and Cong.Ralph Yarborough..also said they smelled graphite.

Saw smoke:at top of the grassy knoll the picket fence north of Elm St..

On the Overpass: Sam Holland, James Simmons, Richard Dodd ,"Rush to Judgement"...Walter Winborn ,and, Thomas Murphy "Cover Up".. Austin Miller ,WC Vol.XXIV p.217,

Clemon Johnson also standing on the triple underpass, did not see the smoke from the trees, he did mention exhaust he saw, clarifys in "No More Silence"..he did not look at the grassy knoll, he kept his eyes on the limo, until it left the Plaza.The exhaust he saw was on the street.. Others were looking at the knoll, he was not. The FBI in their report stated that Richard Dodd didn't know where the smoke came from..But Johnson, sets this right...."Holland and Dodd, if both were living today, they'd almost fight you that they saw smoke coming from out of those bushes. They swore that they were looking right at the bushes at the time." he also tells about how Dodd and Holland ran to some bushes saying, "The shots came out of those bushes". so much for the FBI....Johnson also confirms what Dodd says in the video "Rush to Judgement"...

Some think the smoke could have been exhaust from say the motorcycles in the motorcade, there was what has been called a rather stiff breeze that blew north to south, that gusted at times to 20 miles an hour.The exhaust would have been blown further south of any of the bikes.It would not have blown north to the trees and the fence at the top of the knoll.

Cheryl McKinnon sitting on the grass at the foot of the knoll looked back over her shoulder at the fence and saw smoke. Rosemary Willis was standing on the south side of Elm looking in this direction at the time, said she also saw smoke in this area..( see photo of smoke Bill Miller.).

**********************************

Jean Hill I believe mentions the DPM with a rifle in hand, in her book, "The Last Dessenting Witness"..in the approximate area in general where the Badgeman, shooter was located which you have inserted also, I believe she mentions, he was just standing there...

*************

Shot from the right:

SSA Clint Hill:"On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile."

SSA Paul Landis: "My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front right hand side of the road."

Officer Bobby Hargis motorcycle squad DPD..

He testified: "...At the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me...There was something in my head that said that they probably could

have been coming from the riailroad overpass , because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood......I was just a little back and left of.....

Mrs. Kennedey, but I didn't know........I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge,

and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time..."..

He then came back down jumped on his motorcycle and " rode under-neath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if he

could see anyone running away from the scene......." VI, 294-6

" I looked over to the TSBDB, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was......seemed to be looking

up at the building, or anything, like they knew where the shots were coming from ..........

Some people looking out of the windows up there

didn't seem like they knew what was going on........About the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge.....and I thought

maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle"..6H 295

****************************

Shot South side Overpass....

(See photo showing Tosh area of gunsmoke, by J.Dolva, croppped..and also photo of the North end, where the bridge angles in, similar on both sides, and hidden from veiw...where Hargus ran to)

Bill Grote, is correct, will post The Cancellare where it shows approximately where Tosh thought a shooter could have been, the far corner he thought re the parking lot, that general area, on the South side...

Doug Weldon, in his research also found what he believed to be the trajectory from the south corner of the Overpass that accounted for a possible throat entrance frontal shot, in the same general area..... his work is in the book "Assassination Science"....as the Limo turned the corner onto Elm and proceeded down the hill, the angle of such, for a time, is straight on and pointed towards that corner of the overpass...as it moves along the curve ,there was a direct clear shot without windshield, Jackie nor anyone nor anything in the way...as it travelled down Elm.........according to his research..it was possible...but I believe Doug's work found that trajectory from the farthest corner of the Overpass, but in the same general area..as where Tosh smelled the gunpowder.....

Both far corners of the Overpass are completely hidden from view, according to Tosh's and Dougs.....information..and a photo below dhowing the North end......I believe. Tosh stated on a later visit to the Plaza, he went over that area and he does relate, this info on this Forum, that there is a blind spot, hidden from all, who would have been on the bridge at that time.... an angle that turns inward on the Overpass railing..at that spot........but the ground there is lower on the South side.....it was in this general area, that they smelled the gunsmoke...

I have a photo showing the other North end, which would be approximately the same view, showing the fence angle turning in, in connection to that side, where Officer Hargis climbed to peer over, btw, which is close to the drain seen behind the fence...

Some also smelled gunpowder on Elm Street...as they turned the corner and travelled down the hill in the general knoll area ...the mayors wife, for one, Mrs.Cabell also mentioned such.

*****************************

Drains

See photos:

(The two men are Penn Jones and Bob Groden...below in photo, the other is a Garrison investigator..)

Other areas where research has been done, is the Drain at the North corner of the fence, and the sewer drain on Elm street...

The drain at the north corner was researched by Penn Jones and Jack Brazil ( they researched all the drains ) also Jim Garrison and some of his men they were all over that area...in 67..along with them...John Judge also looked into them with Penn Jones.....I will post a photo showing the drain possibilitys....at that time.

About the sewer drain on Elm Street on the North side of the street....Tom Wilson, studied this area as well as Gregory Burham, and Robert Harris, also John Judge has his comments below....the researchers all found the trajectory of one of the shots to the head, was from a upwards angle, that came from below JFK....?? Their studies were done separately, some years apart ....the sewer drain on Elm at that time, was by no means as it is now, the road was completely recovered with a fresh layer of asphalt by Oliver Stone for the movie JFK, which of course brought the height up, as well as over the years toppings, you will see the differences.. the old drains as you will see and read, were able to have a man stand within, there was also a sewer system that Penn and Brazil and his men, crawled through which came out to the Humber River drain, a huge entrance ,exit system...of such...I am including the following information for your studies...from an earlier compilation...

I have also read that Jack Brazil has a map of the Dallas sewer system, perhaps if still alive and responding, he may be able to

supply such...I have never been able to obtain his email address....if he has one...and never been able to locate him...perhaps that would be much easier for another member.

..also I do not have Tom Wilson's information, no one does..... he is in a episode of TMWKK, and goes through all his research......for the viewers......he was a former U.S. Steel scientist...his work was never published though he did present a copy of all to the HSCA, I am thinking, or the ARRB...?.gone right now.......it has disappeared and is not found....his findings which were years ahead are similar to the findings of some contributors in "Assassination Science.".....

Gil Jesus wrote this below I believe in 2005....there is a map from Gregory Burham's research that also ties into his research....re distances and angles from the Elm St. sewer...below.

""However, some have suggested (myself included) in the last several

years that the fatal shot came from a storm drain on the north side of

Elm Street. This storm drain is located at an approximately 12 degree

angle and 70 feet to the right front of where the fatal shot hit the

President. Its trajectory angle would explain the location of the right

rear occipital/parietal exit wound. It would explain the spraying of

the police officers to the left rear of the car (they were sprayed so

hard that one of the officers, Bobby Hargis, stated afterward that he

initially thought he was hit). It would explain the Harper skull

fragment's location to the left rear of the car. And finally it

explains the back and to the left direction of the head movement in

harmony with the aforementioned evidence..""

*****************

Jack Brazil thought, that a shooter could have crawled up from the connecting pipes from a different location and crawled back after the shooting. He would not have to climb into the manhole before and climb out after.He would get there from connecting pipes...to Elm Street..

No link.

more data.

Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:42

Posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk

By XXXXXXXXXXX

Early information.

City workers had the sewer opened behind the tool shed today. It appears

to be a standard sewer in that the round opening is the top of the bell.

The sides are built with brick and had iron rungs for climbing down. The

pipe at the bottom was covered with mud and debris but it appeared to be

12-15 feet deep and about 4 feet in diameter.

Tom Bowden

The Conspiracy Museum

No link working now, not found..

*********************************

Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:55:11 -0400

From John Judge

To: treefrog

Ed,

I missed the earlier part of this exchange but have always believed the fatal shot came from the storm sewer on Elm Street to the right front of the motorcade. This was not from speculation or photo angling. The letter from Ed T, whoever that is, hits the nail on the head. I used to crawl down in the sewer with Penn Jones in 60s and it is quite different today. For one thing, the bottom has been filled in (note the flattening of the pipe opening at the bottom) and the opening that used to come up to my armpits now only reaches my waist. Oliver Stone repaved the street for his film and considerably reduced the size of the opening onto the street. It was more than ample and wide for the head shot. And Penn Jones, Jim Garrison and other critics placed the shot there from reports by witnesses and the physical evidence. It was Mark Lane in the late 60's who tried to move everyone up to the Grassy Knoll.

Earwitnesses heard a completely different sound from the last shot fired, one saying it echoed as if in a sewer.

Also see Livingstone " Killing the Truth"..

***************************

Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.

A shot from the Grassy Knoll would have reached JFK's head at a downward angle, exiting from the base of his skull, and driving him down into the seat as it sent him backwards. A close examination of his reaction in both Zapruder and Nix films shows that he rises up from the seat as he is thrown back at over 100 mph. The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below.

Brain matter and skull fragments explode upwards and travel back and to the left with great velocity at the moment of impact. Jackie later revealed that she picked up a portion of skull on the left rear of the car behind her seat, before being pushed back in by Clint Hill. A portion of skull was found near the curb on the south side of Elm, nearly 30 feet behind the position of the car at the point of the fatal shot and across the street.

Officer Billy Hargis was riding his motorcycle to the left rear of JFK's limousine and witnessed the head shot. He was quoted in the Warren Commission testimony saying that he was hit so hard with a skull fragment through his leather jacket that he thought he had been hit by a bullet. He looked down to see he was covered with blood, stopped and got off his motorcycle, and said "Am I hit?" He later parked the motorcycle over the opening of the sewer and ran up the Grassy Knoll with other witnesses. Quoted in the Dallas Morning News on the 30th anniversary of the assassination, Hargis recalled the event and said the brain and blood matter arced up and came down on him. Again, all this is more consistent with a shot from below and to the front.

The storm sewer is a good hidden location, one that a military sniper would choose. Penn Jones crawled through the pipes and discovered that going west along Elm leads to the vertical pipe that opens behind the Grassy Knoll fence near the overpass, and going across Elm and to the east leads to a grate in the basement of the Dallas jail. He yelled out when he got there, but no one responded.

The sewer shot was rarely mentioned by researchers or the public after Lane focused on the Grassy Knoll, but a few of us kept seeking the evidence. Subsequent "tell all" books by alleged participants usually repeat the standard locations, the TSBD window or the Grassy Knoll, for verisimilitude. A book published in the 1990's, long after it would have been fashionable to lie about the sewer location, titled Treason is My Daily Bread, by Mikhail Ledbedev, reveals his role in a plot involving Nazi intelligent agent Reinhard Gehlen to kill Kennedy in Dallas, and mentions that he was sent to shoot from the storm sewer. He may be covering for the real assassin in this, but by picking the sewer location he adds credibility to his account in my view. There are many other indications that Gehlen and his cold war spy network that formed our CIA were part of the JFK assassination conspiracy.

In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.

John Judge

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

Russ Files: Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses

Report SCA..1979..

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm

Alphabetical list of witnesses and testimony....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

There may be other areas I do not know of, that have been researched or reported, this information may help you..and others.....whether there were shooters in each and everyone of these areas , and if they actually fired, ? I do not know...

Below there is also a photo of a view to Zapruder and Sitzman, from the fence...

*************************************

John Dolva: and others, you may be interested in this Report from W.Anthony Marsh..

Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll

© - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh

Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from the

grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.

However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would indicate

that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at Z-313 came from

the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive proof of a head shot

from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of circumstantial evidence

which strongly suggest that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Some of

the examples are well known, but need to be reexamined.

The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.

Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies, such

as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President Kennedy's

head around the time of the head shot. They note that President Kennedy's

head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite that as proof

of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and everyone else has

failed to do is analyze the movements of all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limousine, including the Connallys. That is what I have

done.

My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is not,

unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film as used

in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements in 1/60th

of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder frames 312

to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The Grassy Knoll

Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the center of the

window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front edge of his

reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the reference line

to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not use unadjusted

measurements from these prints to calculate precise positions, but can

estimate relative movements. This may be due to a variety of factors, such as

variations in printing and copying each frame, changes in perspective,

mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames are too blurred to allow

accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie Connally's position is to

the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of John Connally's position is

to the front edge of his forehead. Each measurement of Jackie Kennedy's

position is to the front edge of her pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's

position is to the edge of his hair at the rear of his head. All measurements

were lined up against the chrome strip in the background for better contrast.

Be sure to remember that increasing measurements for the Connallys represent

forward motion, while increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent

rearward motion. Notice the direction and amount of movement of each person

listed in Figure 1. Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all

four were hit by bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement

must be caused by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the

limousine having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1]

that the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply

decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that

Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off the

accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from an

average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head shot.

Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust forward in

relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further evidence of

this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move forward while

President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not done a similar

analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start of the occupants'

forward movement, so I would urge others to do so themselves, in order to

verify my results and observations. Figure 1.

Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z313 145 111 87 38 152

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z314 147 113 88 39 151

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z315 151 113 92 33 157

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z316 148 115 93 34 166

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4 rearward 11

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z317 150 117 100 30 177

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z319 153 122 NA 28 182

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 0 forward 4 forward 3 rearward 14

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z320 153 126 130 25 196

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z321 157 NA NA 26 195

Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select

Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my opinion,

the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest entirely on the

acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful for establishing

the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds after the

microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4 shots on the

tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and 145.61

respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and Aschkenasy to be

recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses which was rejected by

HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked at the waveforms more

closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of each shot was recorded,

to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate for each shot is 137.702,

139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can get a general idea of the

spacing between shots by subtracting one time from another. But there is an

additional variable which must be taken into account. BBN found that the

recorder used that day was running about 5% slow, so all times must be

multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore the original spacing. A more

accurate correction factor might be borrowed from the work which W&A did on

the grassy knoll shot. They found that a correction factor of 1.043 produced

the best fit for echo delays compared to their predicted model. Another

possible corroboration for the 1.043 correction factor is the 'bell' sound

found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd Vaughan believes that it is only

electrical interference, if we can determine its true frequency, we can

derive the most accurate correction factor. That holds true for many other

sounds on the tape, such as car horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN

found that the 'bell' sound had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to

the note A, which is usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might

have been tuned to A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was.

Most people have assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train

bell, a ship's bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a

couple of other possible tunings which would produce a correction factor

close to 1.043. If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament

scale, it might have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would

give us a correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an

old English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a

correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing

between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle

blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those into

Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames. Figure 2 is

a rough approximation of how many frames there were between all 5 muzzle

blasts.

Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and

depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the

bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as

matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first shot

after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President Kennedy

and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the last shot

with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the head shot came

from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the head shot came

from the grassy knoll.

Figure 2.

origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame

TSBD 137.702 162 176

> 1.566 1.633 29.89

TSBD 139.268 192 206

> 1.071 1.117 20.44

TSBD 140.339 212 226

> 4.556 4.752 86.96

Knoll 144.895 299 313

> 0.713 0.744 13.61

TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first shot

is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and clearly

President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The first shot

was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at around Z190-

192. The problem with that is that we can see President Kennedy in the

Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not yet appear to be

reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no indication that

Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that time, nor at about Z-

210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA rejected.

My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range of

Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of Z-226

to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of the

Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove exactly

when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their back

wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and mine,

regardless of other evidence.

Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as matches

with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the TSBD as

matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350 shows a crack

on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6, but is seen in

Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot from which direction

caused that crack. I believe that I am the first person to notice something

in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you look carefully at CE350, you

will notice that the back of the rearview mirror is dented, but you can see

that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6. This damage was caused by a bullet

fragment which struck the windshield from the inside and ricochetted into the

rearview mirror. Many people believe this fragment came from the head shot,

which would been fired from the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to

the limousine, consisting of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview

mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find

evidence which pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show

that it came several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the

Zapruder film, Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the

windshield was not cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the

last shot from the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield.

In turn, that would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll.

I seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when

the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered

photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could

only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented at

Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.

Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version or

mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA

admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll shot

was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the impulses

to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is indicated in

brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The jiggle analysis

measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To simply and clarify,

I have put the groups into ascending order. The group with the largest

amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B', etc. I have chosen

the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are usually midway

between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames

per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data

Frames Group

158-159 D

191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not

227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.

290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before

313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.

331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle

137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B

139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1

[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C

144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1

145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2

The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot

occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy knoll.

Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot hit

what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he

heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact had heard

the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would not, in and of

itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the dent could have

been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would narrow the range

during which the chrome topping was dented to between Z-313 to Z-331 and make

it more likely that the chrome topping was dented at the same time that the

windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier as some have speculated.

On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the

statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the grassy

knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the direct path of

gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that the head shot came

from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the TSBD. Emmett Hudson,

who was standing on the steps leading up to the pergola, said that the shots

sounded as if they came from behind him, above his head and to his left. That

would place the origin near the fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had

come from behind him and whistled past his right ear. Between these two

witnesses and behind them is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable

shockwave at 24 ms. before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot.

Assuming the weapon was aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough

calculation of the velocity of the bullet and the resultant angle of the

shockwave. Although the calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too

difficult for me, a rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet

at about 1564.5 fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on

either side of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within

the cone of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.

How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it had

been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have been

outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not have been

recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can be found in

the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he was shown a

very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the viewpoint was

looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary Moorman's position, the

gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In Moorman 2 we can see the head

of a man peering over the fence, about 9 feet from the corner. Interestingly,

this is the same spot where W&A located the origin of the grassy knoll shot,

unaware of the existence of Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view

of any weapon as we might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever

this man was, he moved from that position very quickly after the head shot.

There is no one there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton

photograph, taken shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has

never been analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were

unaware of its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I

found it at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to

properly analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal

the presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher,

Dale Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a

person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.

Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films. Some

fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize the

danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the grassy

knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave whizzing past

them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe their reactions

was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can see Hudson and his

two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola. They do not seem to be

reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see that two of the men are

reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men would not have reacted to the

sound of a shockwave coming from so close behind them. If the grassy knoll

shot was the miss before the head shot, we would expect to see these men

react before the head shot. The fact that they did not react until after the

head shot would seem to indicate that the head shot came from the grassy

knoll.

Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is more

likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing evidence can

and should be examined further. More information can be gleaned from existing

data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data could provide new clues

and allow us to verify certain methods, such as the acoustical studies. I

urge other researchers to look for new evidence and perform new analyses.

------

1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University

Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.

2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16.

..Thanks for your time....

B

Edited December 9, 2006 by Bernice Moore

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Cruciform concordance?

Can you expalin what you mean by 'cruciform' in this context?

EBC

Edited December 7, 2006 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Terry Mauro]

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Aw, vous dites cela à tous les garçons.

Hugs back, kiddo.

Ashton

Woo hoo! Group kiss! Gettin' there gettin' there, now...

If I may break-in on this little tete-a-tete.....

Doh!

I think there is merit in Ashton's case and in the more standard model of the assassination. Most of what we 'saw' and 'see' and analyze was/is as 'real' as any magic trick....ie an illusion to divert attention from the real work at hand. Granted. And clever they were...but they did slip up on a few things....LHO winding up alive [talking] in jail and a few others.....and from these slip-ups we can gain clues. They loaded the Plaza with multiple teams and players - most who had no function but to forever confuse.

That's very true. I agree that the tactic of diversion was well utilized. I have a hard time remembering sources 'cause of the volume of reading, but I think it was Larry who wrote about a gun barrel coming out of the TSBD floor six window and speculated it was diversionary.

The oft repeated "smoke and mirrors" applies.

Of course, there were real teams and players who did real things there and other who planned before and covered-up [and killed] after. I have been reading the [i hope] better JFK tomes and state-of-the-art research for many a decade now and I find that some things discovered rather quickly by some very perceptive souls [Jones, Garrison, White, Weisburg, some witnesses, and others] have stood the test of time. Other ideas have slowly been moulded into a clearer and clearer picture [at least in my mind]. I think we are very close to seeing the structure and the fine details are of interest, but not so important...

Agreed. Tho' some things merit analysis IMO 'cause they'll be referenced by the uninformed and gullible. For example people will throw the Zapruder film around and say something couldn't have occured 'cause the film doesn't show it. I think it's helpful to be able to quickly demonstrate why that film is suspect.

if you can prove conspiracy with a capital C and that it came from inside the National Security Beast you really don't need to know the bullet numbers and angles, etc. But they add to the proof. We each have our areas of expertise and interest [and sometimes obsession]. Some like to look at minutia and players, others to stand back and look at the 'big picture' and puppet masters. Fine.

There are many idiots, fakes, finks, and disinformation persons on this...but many others [whatever their persuasion] mean well [to find the Truth and make the vital change back to democracy and rule of law, justice, etc. through information].

Well I'm a big picture kinda person myself. Though I think any area of study by someone with sincere interest is of merit and there is enough mystery to go around. My particular interest is linking President Kennedy's murder with subsequent and current events and the emergence of the US as a fascist country. But if people hadn't discredited the official stories then we'd have nothing to build on to illustrate the bigger picture.

My only problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against.

Let's not fight, but rather try to have some synergy of purpose and deed toward our goal.

Oh, gotta take issue with that big guy. We fight then we make up! See?

Group... whatever.

***************************************************************

"Well I'm a big picture kinda person myself. Though I think any area of study by someone with sincere interest is of merit and there is enough mystery to go around. My particular interest is linking President Kennedy's murder with subsequent and current events and the emergence of the US as a fascist country. But if people hadn't discredited the official stories then we'd have nothing to build on to illustrate the bigger picture.

My only problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against."

Excellent observation, Myra.

[Ashton Gray]

Cruciform concordance?

Can you expalin what you mean by 'cruciform' in this context?

EBC

Just that the two intersect in ways that I do not believe could have been faked. To me this is a crucial overlap of consistency that I feel leads back (not forward) along a 22° line (or thereabouts) to the actual trigger man of the head shot.

I am slammed for time at the moment.

BERNICE: Absolutely stupefying amount of useful information and photos. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I will answer more appropriately soon.

Ashton

[Terry Mauro]

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

This may or may not be of any interest, but what I believe I may see ..

QUOTE

Bernice: "One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??"

Ashton Quote :"My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.".....B:always......

*******************

My thoughts on the Zapruder and the Nix films, are as follows....at this time.

There were frames cut out of the Zapruder film as well as the Nix....therefore they are both altered...changed.....to what was their true state.....once touched they became obsolete within the studies, in trying to solve the assassination in the area....of the head shots.... as we do not know, exactly where, nor how many frames were exorcised....therefore to try to study the assassination and the head shots within, becomes a exercise in futility.....as well as frustration...

That, I am thinking is the why it was done.... that with some frames, several, one or two whatever , if they were cut out of the Zapruder as well as the Nix and in the crucial head shot areas..and we do not know positively that they were not.......we may have no possibility of proving nor solving the assassination in that particluar area, ever...Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the films, photos and all.....I have become a collector..

Why would they hold the Zapruder film as they did as well as the Nix, which as was not released..either..?.......Oh ,perhaps for want of a better word, so that we would be completely taken in by them..

Our need being so great as well as our our exuberance, when they finally were, that we would and did throw caution to the wind.....We choose to overlook, what we perhaps saw as any faults within, until some researchers began their studies within.....Perhaps we were thinking, now that we had the films the case could be solved...........exactly as they knew all would......??

It sure did not work out that way, and has done nothing but cause more dissension ....as intended, I believe.....The Zapruder wars have been raging ever since....

I do not know, positively, but they played and continue to play the game, and they also only release what they want us to see and hear....at any given time...

Just some thoughts...

***************************

In studying.....Just : The Dealey Witnesses & Parkland:

The eye witnesses information from Dealey Plaza, along with the Doctors, Nurses, Clint Hill, and others that saw the head wound at Parkland along with their medical first day statements at the hospital....

They Comply...

In studying .......Just :

The Zapruder film, along with the findings of Betheda and the autopsy..They Comply....

In studying......

The later witness that came forth some years later with their siteings and information re Bethesda, such as Dennis David, and O'Connor.....Comply with neither...

There appears to be three separate scenarios..but never correlating .....together...and never will..

That in imo, is where the many problems lie, in all, and why the forever dissent which causes the intended divisions amongst the JFK researchers, and the way it was all deliberately set up..to enact that discord......

By doing so, we are fulfilling, exactly what their well laid plans intended...imo..

***************************

Below is the RR Toolbox, ( see white box on left, at back in the Marguerite Oswald photo) that Ed Hoffman spoke of where he saw from a distance a RR worker, catch a rifle thrown to him by the man that Lee Bowers mentions, that you have inserted in your re-creation, at the North end of the fence...along with the younger man, the man then turned and walked back along the fence.....Bowers I believe mentions the RRworker in the general area, but no specifics...in his taped interview with Lane..

"Bowers testified that at the time of the motorcade on November 22, he was located in the Union Terminal Tower in the railroad yard.(182) When asked what people he noticed standing between the tower and Elm Street at the underpass on the high ground, Bowers stated that he saw two man standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other.(183) One of them was middle aged, heavy set, and was wearing a white shirt and dark trousers.(184) The other man was in his mid-twenties, wearing either a plaid shirt or a plaid jacket.(185) Bowers said those two men were directly in his line of vision toward the mouth of the underpass and appeared to be watching the progress of the motorcade.(186) Bowers said he saw the man in the white shirt standing there at the time of the shots, but that he could not see the younger man in the plaid clothing because of the trees, which made him harder to distinguish.(187) "

"Bowers said that at that point a motorcycle officer ran up the incline toward the trees in the general area of where the two men were standing;( see two fence Officer Hargis areas photos ) Bowers said there was some kind of commotion at that place, but that he did not know what had happened.(188) "

See also view of Bowers below...

Link further below.

**************************

Roof of Post Office Annex Building..Jesse Price

In the Mark Lane video, as close as I can relate to you, as I am not able to capture the frames from the videos, perhaps some day....

..Jesse Price is seen and it appears to be perhaps towards the middle of the Post Office Terminal Annex Building roof, south side of Dealey..( see Map below ) .along with Mark Lane "Rush to Judgement" video, he sits on the edge, and points towards the middle of the fence area, in that general area, where about Hatman and the smoke is seen...and speaks of a young man running from that specific area, with something in his hand, he also mentions that it could possibley have been a radio...He runs across the tracks, towards the railroad cars ,turning and then disappearing out of site, but down towards the street that leads towards the back of the TSBD...You have hatman in your re-creation...in that general area, I believe, where the smoke is seen approximately..but I believe he needs to be moved more towards the middle of the fence somewhat...??..but not according to the Nix clip ??..when shown the spot that he saw the smoke drift from, by Sam Hoffman he, and Mark Lane seem to be standing between trees, and just to the left perhaps ten-to fifteen feet or so, of the last sign..looking from behind the fence, leading to the underpass, Sam also states that is approximately where he saw JFK take the hit to the head..

*********************************

Smoke:

After studying the smoke again , in the photos, it appears to be drifting, and I am thinking that is the reason it appears so large, it is dissipating, there was a wind that day in the Plaza, it would not have appeared as such when it first left the barrel..but the wind would have carried it..

Mr. Holland. There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. Stern. What number would that have been in the -

Mr. Holland. Well, that would - they were so close together.

Mr. Stern. The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. Holland. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth.

Tom Dillard, photographer, Mrs. Earle Cabell..Mrs.Donald Baker, P.O Earle Brown, and Cong.Ralph Yarborough..also said they smelled graphite.

Saw smoke:at top of the grassy knoll the picket fence north of Elm St..

On the Overpass: Sam Holland, James Simmons, Richard Dodd ,"Rush to Judgement"...Walter Winborn ,and, Thomas Murphy "Cover Up".. Austin Miller ,WC Vol.XXIV p.217,

Clemon Johnson also standing on the triple underpass, did not see the smoke from the trees, he did mention exhaust he saw, clarifys in "No More Silence"..he did not look at the grassy knoll, he kept his eyes on the limo, until it left the Plaza.The exhaust he saw was on the street.. Others were looking at the knoll, he was not. The FBI in their report stated that Richard Dodd didn't know where the smoke came from..But Johnson, sets this right...."Holland and Dodd, if both were living today, they'd almost fight you that they saw smoke coming from out of those bushes. They swore that they were looking right at the bushes at the time." he also tells about how Dodd and Holland ran to some bushes saying, "The shots came out of those bushes". so much for the FBI....Johnson also confirms what Dodd says in the video "Rush to Judgement"...

Some think the smoke could have been exhaust from say the motorcycles in the motorcade, there was what has been called a rather stiff breeze that blew north to south, that gusted at times to 20 miles an hour.The exhaust would have been blown further south of any of the bikes.It would not have blown north to the trees and the fence at the top of the knoll.

Cheryl McKinnon sitting on the grass at the foot of the knoll looked back over her shoulder at the fence and saw smoke. Rosemary Willis was standing on the south side of Elm looking in this direction at the time, said she also saw smoke in this area..( see photo of smoke Bill Miller.).

**********************************

Jean Hill I believe mentions the DPM with a rifle in hand, in her book, "The Last Dessenting Witness"..in the approximate area in general where the Badgeman, shooter was located which you have inserted also, I believe she mentions, he was just standing there...

*************

Shot from the right:

SSA Clint Hill:"On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile."

SSA Paul Landis: "My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front right hand side of the road."

Officer Bobby Hargis motorcycle squad DPD..

He testified: "...At the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me...There was something in my head that said that they probably could

have been coming from the riailroad overpass , because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood......I was just a little back and left of.....

Mrs. Kennedey, but I didn't know........I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge,

and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time..."..

He then came back down jumped on his motorcycle and " rode under-neath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if he

could see anyone running away from the scene......." VI, 294-6

" I looked over to the TSBDB, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was......seemed to be looking

up at the building, or anything, like they knew where the shots were coming from ..........

Some people looking out of the windows up there

didn't seem like they knew what was going on........About the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge.....and I thought

maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle"..6H 295

****************************

Shot South side Overpass....

(See photo showing Tosh area of gunsmoke, by J.Dolva, croppped..and also photo of the North end, where the bridge angles in, similar on both sides, and hidden from veiw...where Hargus ran to)

Bill Grote, is correct, will post The Cancellare where it shows approximately where Tosh thought a shooter could have been, the far corner he thought re the parking lot, that general area, on the South side...

Doug Weldon, in his research also found what he believed to be the trajectory from the south corner of the Overpass that accounted for a possible throat entrance frontal shot, in the same general area..... his work is in the book "Assassination Science"....as the Limo turned the corner onto Elm and proceeded down the hill, the angle of such, for a time, is straight on and pointed towards that corner of the overpass...as it moves along the curve ,there was a direct clear shot without windshield, Jackie nor anyone nor anything in the way...as it travelled down Elm.........according to his research..it was possible...but I believe Doug's work found that trajectory from the farthest corner of the Overpass, but in the same general area..as where Tosh smelled the gunpowder.....

Both far corners of the Overpass are completely hidden from view, according to Tosh's and Dougs.....information..and a photo below dhowing the North end......I believe. Tosh stated on a later visit to the Plaza, he went over that area and he does relate, this info on this Forum, that there is a blind spot, hidden from all, who would have been on the bridge at that time.... an angle that turns inward on the Overpass railing..at that spot........but the ground there is lower on the South side.....it was in this general area, that they smelled the gunsmoke...

I have a photo showing the other North end, which would be approximately the same view, showing the fence angle turning in, in connection to that side, where Officer Hargis climbed to peer over, btw, which is close to the drain seen behind the fence...

Some also smelled gunpowder on Elm Street...as they turned the corner and travelled down the hill in the general knoll area ...the mayors wife, for one, Mrs.Cabell also mentioned such.

*****************************

Drains

See photos:

(The two men are Penn Jones and Bob Groden...below in photo, the other is a Garrison investigator..)

Other areas where research has been done, is the Drain at the North corner of the fence, and the sewer drain on Elm street...

The drain at the north corner was researched by Penn Jones and Jack Brazil ( they researched all the drains ) also Jim Garrison and some of his men they were all over that area...in 67..along with them...John Judge also looked into them with Penn Jones.....I will post a photo showing the drain possibilitys....at that time.

About the sewer drain on Elm Street on the North side of the street....Tom Wilson, studied this area as well as Gregory Burham, and Robert Harris, also John Judge has his comments below....the researchers all found the trajectory of one of the shots to the head, was from a upwards angle, that came from below JFK....?? Their studies were done separately, some years apart ....the sewer drain on Elm at that time, was by no means as it is now, the road was completely recovered with a fresh layer of asphalt by Oliver Stone for the movie JFK, which of course brought the height up, as well as over the years toppings, you will see the differences.. the old drains as you will see and read, were able to have a man stand within, there was also a sewer system that Penn and Brazil and his men, crawled through which came out to the Humber River drain, a huge entrance ,exit system...of such...I am including the following information for your studies...from an earlier compilation...

I have also read that Jack Brazil has a map of the Dallas sewer system, perhaps if still alive and responding, he may be able to

supply such...I have never been able to obtain his email address....if he has one...and never been able to locate him...perhaps that would be much easier for another member.

..also I do not have Tom Wilson's information, no one does..... he is in a episode of TMWKK, and goes through all his research......for the viewers......he was a former U.S. Steel scientist...his work was never published though he did present a copy of all to the HSCA, I am thinking, or the ARRB...?.gone right now.......it has disappeared and is not found....his findings which were years ahead are similar to the findings of some contributors in "Assassination Science.".....

Gil Jesus wrote this below I believe in 2005....there is a map from Gregory Burham's research that also ties into his research....re distances and angles from the Elm St. sewer...below.

""However, some have suggested (myself included) in the last several

years that the fatal shot came from a storm drain on the north side of

Elm Street. This storm drain is located at an approximately 12 degree

angle and 70 feet to the right front of where the fatal shot hit the

President. Its trajectory angle would explain the location of the right

rear occipital/parietal exit wound. It would explain the spraying of

the police officers to the left rear of the car (they were sprayed so

hard that one of the officers, Bobby Hargis, stated afterward that he

initially thought he was hit). It would explain the Harper skull

fragment's location to the left rear of the car. And finally it

explains the back and to the left direction of the head movement in

harmony with the aforementioned evidence..""

*****************

Jack Brazil thought, that a shooter could have crawled up from the connecting pipes from a different location and crawled back after the shooting. He would not have to climb into the manhole before and climb out after.He would get there from connecting pipes...to Elm Street..

No link.

more data.

Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:42

Posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk

By XXXXXXXXXXX

Early information.

City workers had the sewer opened behind the tool shed today. It appears

to be a standard sewer in that the round opening is the top of the bell.

The sides are built with brick and had iron rungs for climbing down. The

pipe at the bottom was covered with mud and debris but it appeared to be

12-15 feet deep and about 4 feet in diameter.

Tom Bowden

The Conspiracy Museum

No link working now, not found..

*********************************

Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:55:11 -0400

From John Judge

To: treefrog

Ed,

I missed the earlier part of this exchange but have always believed the fatal shot came from the storm sewer on Elm Street to the right front of the motorcade. This was not from speculation or photo angling. The letter from Ed T, whoever that is, hits the nail on the head. I used to crawl down in the sewer with Penn Jones in 60s and it is quite different today. For one thing, the bottom has been filled in (note the flattening of the pipe opening at the bottom) and the opening that used to come up to my armpits now only reaches my waist. Oliver Stone repaved the street for his film and considerably reduced the size of the opening onto the street. It was more than ample and wide for the head shot. And Penn Jones, Jim Garrison and other critics placed the shot there from reports by witnesses and the physical evidence. It was Mark Lane in the late 60's who tried to move everyone up to the Grassy Knoll.

Earwitnesses heard a completely different sound from the last shot fired, one saying it echoed as if in a sewer.

Also see Livingstone " Killing the Truth"..

***************************

Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.

A shot from the Grassy Knoll would have reached JFK's head at a downward angle, exiting from the base of his skull, and driving him down into the seat as it sent him backwards. A close examination of his reaction in both Zapruder and Nix films shows that he rises up from the seat as he is thrown back at over 100 mph. The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below.

Brain matter and skull fragments explode upwards and travel back and to the left with great velocity at the moment of impact. Jackie later revealed that she picked up a portion of skull on the left rear of the car behind her seat, before being pushed back in by Clint Hill. A portion of skull was found near the curb on the south side of Elm, nearly 30 feet behind the position of the car at the point of the fatal shot and across the street.

Officer Billy Hargis was riding his motorcycle to the left rear of JFK's limousine and witnessed the head shot. He was quoted in the Warren Commission testimony saying that he was hit so hard with a skull fragment through his leather jacket that he thought he had been hit by a bullet. He looked down to see he was covered with blood, stopped and got off his motorcycle, and said "Am I hit?" He later parked the motorcycle over the opening of the sewer and ran up the Grassy Knoll with other witnesses. Quoted in the Dallas Morning News on the 30th anniversary of the assassination, Hargis recalled the event and said the brain and blood matter arced up and came down on him. Again, all this is more consistent with a shot from below and to the front.

The storm sewer is a good hidden location, one that a military sniper would choose. Penn Jones crawled through the pipes and discovered that going west along Elm leads to the vertical pipe that opens behind the Grassy Knoll fence near the overpass, and going across Elm and to the east leads to a grate in the basement of the Dallas jail. He yelled out when he got there, but no one responded.

The sewer shot was rarely mentioned by researchers or the public after Lane focused on the Grassy Knoll, but a few of us kept seeking the evidence. Subsequent "tell all" books by alleged participants usually repeat the standard locations, the TSBD window or the Grassy Knoll, for verisimilitude. A book published in the 1990's, long after it would have been fashionable to lie about the sewer location, titled Treason is My Daily Bread, by Mikhail Ledbedev, reveals his role in a plot involving Nazi intelligent agent Reinhard Gehlen to kill Kennedy in Dallas, and mentions that he was sent to shoot from the storm sewer. He may be covering for the real assassin in this, but by picking the sewer location he adds credibility to his account in my view. There are many other indications that Gehlen and his cold war spy network that formed our CIA were part of the JFK assassination conspiracy.

In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.

John Judge

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

Russ Files: Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses

Report SCA..1979..

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm

Alphabetical list of witnesses and testimony....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

There may be other areas I do not know of, that have been researched or reported, this information may help you..and others.....whether there were shooters in each and everyone of these areas , and if they actually fired, ? I do not know...

Below there is also a photo of a view to Zapruder and Sitzman, from the fence...

*************************************

John Dolva: and others, you may be interested in this Report from W.Anthony Marsh..

Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll

© - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh

Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from the

grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.

However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would indicate

that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at Z-313 came from

the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive proof of a head shot

from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of circumstantial evidence

which strongly suggest that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Some of

the examples are well known, but need to be reexamined.

The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.

Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies, such

as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President Kennedy's

head around the time of the head shot. They note that President Kennedy's

head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite that as proof

of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and everyone else has

failed to do is analyze the movements of all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limousine, including the Connallys. That is what I have

done.

My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is not,

unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film as used

in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements in 1/60th

of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder frames 312

to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The Grassy Knoll

Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the center of the

window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front edge of his

reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the reference line

to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not use unadjusted

measurements from these prints to calculate precise positions, but can

estimate relative movements. This may be due to a variety of factors, such as

variations in printing and copying each frame, changes in perspective,

mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames are too blurred to allow

accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie Connally's position is to

the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of John Connally's position is

to the front edge of his forehead. Each measurement of Jackie Kennedy's

position is to the front edge of her pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's

position is to the edge of his hair at the rear of his head. All measurements

were lined up against the chrome strip in the background for better contrast.

Be sure to remember that increasing measurements for the Connallys represent

forward motion, while increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent

rearward motion. Notice the direction and amount of movement of each person

listed in Figure 1. Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all

four were hit by bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement

must be caused by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the

limousine having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1]

that the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply

decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that

Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off the

accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from an

average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head shot.

Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust forward in

relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further evidence of

this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move forward while

President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not done a similar

analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start of the occupants'

forward movement, so I would urge others to do so themselves, in order to

verify my results and observations. Figure 1.

Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z313 145 111 87 38 152

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z314 147 113 88 39 151

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z315 151 113 92 33 157

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z316 148 115 93 34 166

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4 rearward 11

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z317 150 117 100 30 177

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z319 153 122 NA 28 182

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 0 forward 4 forward 3 rearward 14

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z320 153 126 130 25 196

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z321 157 NA NA 26 195

Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select

Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my opinion,

the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest entirely on the

acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful for establishing

the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds after the

microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4 shots on the

tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and 145.61

respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and Aschkenasy to be

recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses which was rejected by

HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked at the waveforms more

closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of each shot was recorded,

to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate for each shot is 137.702,

139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can get a general idea of the

spacing between shots by subtracting one time from another. But there is an

additional variable which must be taken into account. BBN found that the

recorder used that day was running about 5% slow, so all times must be

multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore the original spacing. A more

accurate correction factor might be borrowed from the work which W&A did on

the grassy knoll shot. They found that a correction factor of 1.043 produced

the best fit for echo delays compared to their predicted model. Another

possible corroboration for the 1.043 correction factor is the 'bell' sound

found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd Vaughan believes that it is only

electrical interference, if we can determine its true frequency, we can

derive the most accurate correction factor. That holds true for many other

sounds on the tape, such as car horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN

found that the 'bell' sound had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to

the note A, which is usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might

have been tuned to A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was.

Most people have assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train

bell, a ship's bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a

couple of other possible tunings which would produce a correction factor

close to 1.043. If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament

scale, it might have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would

give us a correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an

old English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a

correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing

between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle

blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those into

Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames. Figure 2 is

a rough approximation of how many frames there were between all 5 muzzle

blasts.

Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and

depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the

bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as

matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first shot

after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President Kennedy

and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the last shot

with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the head shot came

from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the head shot came

from the grassy knoll.

Figure 2.

origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame

TSBD 137.702 162 176

> 1.566 1.633 29.89

TSBD 139.268 192 206

> 1.071 1.117 20.44

TSBD 140.339 212 226

> 4.556 4.752 86.96

Knoll 144.895 299 313

> 0.713 0.744 13.61

TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first shot

is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and clearly

President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The first shot

was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at around Z190-

192. The problem with that is that we can see President Kennedy in the

Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not yet appear to be

reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no indication that

Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that time, nor at about Z-

210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA rejected.

My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range of

Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of Z-226

to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of the

Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove exactly

when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their back

wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and mine,

regardless of other evidence.

Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as matches

with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the TSBD as

matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350 shows a crack

on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6, but is seen in

Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot from which direction

caused that crack. I believe that I am the first person to notice something

in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you look carefully at CE350, you

will notice that the back of the rearview mirror is dented, but you can see

that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6. This damage was caused by a bullet

fragment which struck the windshield from the inside and ricochetted into the

rearview mirror. Many people believe this fragment came from the head shot,

which would been fired from the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to

the limousine, consisting of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview

mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find

evidence which pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show

that it came several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the

Zapruder film, Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the

windshield was not cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the

last shot from the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield.

In turn, that would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll.

I seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when

the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered

photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could

only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented at

Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.

Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version or

mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA

admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll shot

was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the impulses

to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is indicated in

brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The jiggle analysis

measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To simply and clarify,

I have put the groups into ascending order. The group with the largest

amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B', etc. I have chosen

the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are usually midway

between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames

per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data

Frames Group

158-159 D

191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not

227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.

290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before

313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.

331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle

137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B

139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1

[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C

144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1

145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2

The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot

occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy knoll.

Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot hit

what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he

heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact had heard

the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would not, in and of

itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the dent could have

been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would narrow the range

during which the chrome topping was dented to between Z-313 to Z-331 and make

it more likely that the chrome topping was dented at the same time that the

windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier as some have speculated.

On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the

statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the grassy

knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the direct path of

gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that the head shot came

from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the TSBD. Emmett Hudson,

who was standing on the steps leading up to the pergola, said that the shots

sounded as if they came from behind him, above his head and to his left. That

would place the origin near the fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had

come from behind him and whistled past his right ear. Between these two

witnesses and behind them is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable

shockwave at 24 ms. before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot.

Assuming the weapon was aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough

calculation of the velocity of the bullet and the resultant angle of the

shockwave. Although the calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too

difficult for me, a rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet

at about 1564.5 fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on

either side of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within

the cone of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.

How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it had

been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have been

outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not have been

recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can be found in

the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he was shown a

very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the viewpoint was

looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary Moorman's position, the

gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In Moorman 2 we can see the head

of a man peering over the fence, about 9 feet from the corner. Interestingly,

this is the same spot where W&A located the origin of the grassy knoll shot,

unaware of the existence of Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view

of any weapon as we might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever

this man was, he moved from that position very quickly after the head shot.

There is no one there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton

photograph, taken shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has

never been analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were

unaware of its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I

found it at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to

properly analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal

the presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher,

Dale Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a

person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.

Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films. Some

fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize the

danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the grassy

knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave whizzing past

them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe their reactions

was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can see Hudson and his

two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola. They do not seem to be

reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see that two of the men are

reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men would not have reacted to the

sound of a shockwave coming from so close behind them. If the grassy knoll

shot was the miss before the head shot, we would expect to see these men

react before the head shot. The fact that they did not react until after the

head shot would seem to indicate that the head shot came from the grassy

knoll.

Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is more

likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing evidence can

and should be examined further. More information can be gleaned from existing

data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data could provide new clues

and allow us to verify certain methods, such as the acoustical studies. I

urge other researchers to look for new evidence and perform new analyses.

------

1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University

Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.

2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16.

..Thanks for your time....

B

******************************************************

"..Thanks for your time....

B"

Bernie,

I need to tell you how much I appreciate all the time and work you've been doing and compiling over these past years. I'm amazed and impressed beyond words. I'm speechless! I truly am.

Thank YOU for YOUR time. I mean that, wholeheartedly.

Your Little Beggar from the lower 40,

Ter