Who were the shooters?

[Terry Mauro]

Cliff, thank you for your heartfelt concern over my "getting my mind right" about there having been one to three (or more? I sure wish you'd settle on a number and locations) sniping assassins hiding somewhere behind the picket fence and the pergola retaining wall on 22 November 1963. I feel almost as if I am being inducted into a religion. I realize I am a hard heretic to bring to the alter, and I am agog at your industry in this effort.

I am even more agog, though, at how eloquently you make my case for me that the locations you and others describe are perhaps the worst sniper positions in all the history of fact and fiction since the invention of gun powder.

So I think I'll just lean back in my chair, stretch out my legs, and lace my hands behind my head while you do just that: make my case for me.

First, though, just to help get people oriented to what you're describing, allow me to put up here on the easel "Ashton's Exhibit A," an annotated overview of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) parking lot and picket fence area at issue:

Doh! I put that sucker up there upside down. I don't know what's got into me. Lemme fix that for you...

There we go. You have the floor:

Bowers had PLENTY of other things to say in that chunk of testimony I cited. The last bit there pertaining to people streaming in from different directions seems particularly salient...

• MR. BOWERS (Railway worker in observation tower behind picket fence): A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
  

...What made all of those other people charge the knoll?

I'm not sure how far you can push a theory that boycotts that explanation. ...

• SAM HOLLAND (Railway worker atop overpass at time of shooting): Well. immediately after the shots was fired, I run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone up there behind the fence. ...I ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while...
  

Oh my, all those policemen and plainclothesmen johnny on the spot, Texas style rapid response y'all.

• QUESTION: Mr. Simmons, about how long after the last shot would you say you went back in the parking lot area behind the fence?
  JAMES SIMMONS (Railway worker atop overpass at time of shooting): Immediately.
  QUESTION: Immediately, and about how long did you stay back there?
  JAMES SIMMONS: We were back there several minutes.
  QUESTION: Could you tell us about how many?
  JAMES SIMMONS: I would say 15 or 20 minutes...
  

...Let's ask Bowers...

• MR. BALL: Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you?
  MR. BOWERS: That's correct.
  MR. BALL: Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area around between your tower and Elm Street?
  MR. BOWERS: Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by police for some 2 hours.
  

...Please see Sam Holland's statement that a good dozen "policeman and plainclothesman" were in the vicinity [behind the picket fence, including the corner of the picket fence] when he got there, and that he left his spot on the overpass immediately.

There were cops around before the shooting, there were a lot of cops around right after the shooting.

Thank you. I rest my case. You've argued it about as persuasively as it could be argued. I'm entirely convinced: the purported positions for "Black Dog Man," "Badge Man" (plus spotter), and "Hat Man" are utterly absurd as shooting positions.

Hordes of people, including policemen, flooded into the area in seconds from all directions.

The entire area at issue was lousy with cops for two hours before, and not one witness in forty years has ever once suggested that even one of them carried a rifle, or that any person, in any mode of dress or garb, was ever seen in the area at issue with a rifle at any time.

The entire area was searched carefully for empty shell casings immediately after the shooting and none were found.

Not a single verifiable scrap of evidence of any shooters in those locations was found then, and not a single scrap of verifiable evidence has been found to this day.

When are you going to make your case, though?

Oh: maybe that was that question you had for me in the above, the one I've answered about ten times now, but you can't seem to get somehow. Let's do some remedial back-trackig. Go ahead—ask it again:

What made all of those other people charge the knoll?

I'm not sure how far you can push a theory that boycotts that explanation.

Cliff? Have you been paying any attention at all? Can I get you to focus real hard for a sec? I mean, this is only the central and crucial point I have made repeatedly in this thread and others. And, Cliff: this ain't some theetie-weetie, airy-fairy theory, or bizarre clumps of shadow and light pulled out of grainy photos and colorized to look sort of humanoid. Un-unh; this is hard, cold, documented, incontrovertible, inarguable evidenciary fact. So please—please, for your old pal Ashton—try to pay attention this time.

Here it is again, from all the way back on page 6 of this thread, as originally reported by Steve Thomas, and this time I'm going to make some things bold for you:

Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:

"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."

For the love of Buddha, Cliff, at almost the instant of the shooting Decker was on the Dallas Police Department Channel 2 saying something had "happened in there" in "the railroad yard."

Motorcycle policemen in the motorcade instantly dropped their bikes in the street and charged to that area, and people of course followed!

Hell, Bowers himself says in his testimony that immediately after the shooting "there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline."

They all had just been informed urgently on DPD Channel 2 that something "happened in there." What do you expect the cops on and near the scene to do? Go to Dunkin' Donuts? And what do you expect a crowd of onlookers to do when they see every cop on the scene racing toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) parking lot/railroad yard immediately after the President of the United States has just been shot right before their eyes?

Within 40 seconds of Decker's broadcast, the Sheriff's Department made its broadcast.

How many times have I made the point that Decker instantly ordered the County Courts building emptied?

Let's consider this soberly: the first thought planted in the very instant of greatest shock was "something happened in there" in the railroad track area "just north of Elm." Meaning the TSBD parking lot. Meaning right where you to this day are insisting "something happened in there."

And then what did the people running this little show do? They moved it all just slightly, into the TSBD.

And they stuck the whole world right there.

Do you know what "psy ops" means? Do you know how it works? Do you really know how these scum work? Do you know the significance, in the use of such black arts, of planting an idea in a moment of intense shock and dispersal and emotional stress and pain? If you don't, trust me: they do.

But even if you don't buy that there was a psy-op involved (the effects of which are reverberating to this very instant), even with that discounted out of hand, just look at "Exhibit A," above. Just look with your eyes.

What you regard as ludicrous the world class sniper Craig Roberts found obvious...

I.

Don't.

Give.

A.

Damn.

Can I make it any plainer?

I wouldn't care if you marched in 10,000 army-classed female virgin sharpshooters dressed as angels singing "It's a sniper's paradise" in four-part harmony (assuming they have sopranos). I don't need professional government killers (I'm sorry: I meant "experts") or itchy-finger angels to tell me what I see with my own eyes. That my personal integrity, not theirs.

And what I see in "Exhibit A" is one of the most ridiculous scenarios anybody could possibly dream up even in a fever, even on hallucinogens, for the daylight murder of the president of the most powerful nation in the world.

That's what I see. You see whatever you want to see.

As for what "world class sniper Craig Roberts" saw, did you bother to find out when he made a record of his Holy Epiphany Behind the Picket Fence? It wouldn't have been put into the book he released in the aftermath of the popular surge of Oliver Stone's "JFK," would it? Would you care to check? Did Myra before she dropped it into this thread explaining how she thought it "relevant"? Did Terry before she checked in with her Roberts endorsement?

I did.

So y'all party on behind the fence. You've sat there for forty-three years hoping to find a perp. (Or two. Or three. Or.... How many?) Sit there for another forty-three for all I care. And you won't find one—not one dressed as a cop, not one dressed as a tramp, not one dressed in drag, and not one dressed as Baby Jesus. It's a blind, dead fence corner. There is no trail. Fiction doesn't leave a trail. That's why you can't pick one up, into the area or out. And you never will.

Of course I'm happy to provide any views of this model anybody wants to see. I'm happy to discuss actual evidence. But as for chasing will o' the wisps behind the fence, I'm done. I've already said I'm done. Thanks for the sermons, thanks for the religious artifacts, thanks for the concern about my research soul, and thanks especially to each of you for the offers to let me take a seat with you in the pew behind the fence. But you're simply not going to get a convert.

And this sinner's got bid'ness elsewhere.

Ashton

**********************************************************

"And what I see in "Exhibit A" is one of the most ridiculous scenarios anybody could possibly dream up even in a fever, even on hallucinogens, for the daylight murder of the president of the most powerful nation in the world.

That's what I see. You see whatever you want to see.

As for what "world class sniper Craig Roberts" saw, did you bother to find out when he made a record of his Holy Epiphany Behind the Picket Fence? It wouldn't have been put into the book he released in the aftermath of the popular surge of Oliver Stone's "JFK," would it? Would you care to check? Did Myra before she dropped it into this thread explaining how she thought it "relevant"? Did Terry before she checked in with her Roberts endorsement?

I did.

So y'all party on behind the fence. You've sat there for forty-three years hoping to find a perp. (Or two. Or three. Or.... How many?) Sit there for another forty-three for all I care. And you won't find one—not one dressed as a cop, not one dressed as a tramp, not one dressed in drag, and not one dressed as Baby Jesus. It's a blind, dead fence corner. There is no trail. Fiction doesn't leave a trail. That's why you can't pick one up, into the area or out. And you never will."

O.K. Let me see if I've got this straight now. The shot came from the Dal-Tex Building, possibly the 2nd floor, from a high-powered rifle with a mercury filled load [which theoretically is designed to explode upon contact], blew out the back of JFK's right occiput, as he turned to wave to the crowd to his right. Therefore, the Zapruder film is a cartoon, and the Parkland doctors and nurses were in on the scam and purposely reported the mercury bullet ENTRY wound to the right occiput, as an EXIT wound in order to confuse and confound any spectators or witnesses in the crowd so as to eventually discredit their testimony should anyone other than the authorities have the audacity to decide to perform an investigation separately from the one expected to be done by the gov. And, Decker sent out an APB which was picked up by the motorcycle detail, for them to secure the railroad yard, causing a knee-jerk response from the crowd of spectators who followed the motorcycle detail up the Grassy Knoll, like the Lemmings they were programmed to react as.

Nice work, Ash. Hopefully you, Jack, and Cliff will be able to change the spin on this case to reflect a more accurate depiction of what really happened that day.

Edited December 5, 2006 by Terry Mauro

[Cliff Varnell]

Nice work, Ash. Hopefully you, Jack, and Cliff will be able to change the spin on this case to reflect a more accurate depiction of what really happened that day.

I listen to the witnesses and look at the pictures.

IMO -- aside from the instances where the witness consensus conflicts

with the photo evidence -- the witness descriptions and the photos

accurately depict what happened that day.

[Myra Bronstein]

NOTE: I spent hours attempting to respond to this post from Cliff Varnell last night, and the quoting function becomes utterly broken after the first four quotes, which then disables all the quotes in the message. I reported this in the appropriate forum, and my answer was "Use the Reply button," which I always do anyway and have never had anything even resembling such trouble before. So I now have to resort to color codes to be able to respond at all. Sorry, but I proved to my own satisfaction by lengthy tests last night that it's being caused by something in the forum software, and have reported it, and that's all I can do. —Ashton

Ashton

Ah hah! So I'm not the only one who's had that problem. Most frustrating. Well I suppose we can just break up long answers into separate posts as a workaround.

[Myra Bronstein]

FWIW, I think I'm inclined to stay with the fence location--for the moment.

I certainly wouldn't want to lure anyone from it, and I respect anyone's independent assessment and analysis of supportable fact.

There's a good chance both this and the County Records Building were shooting locations.

I've yet to explore the County Records building, per se, but I've just completed a rather involved exercise that took some time of setting up views from every window in the County Courts building. Once I can export jpegs of the view from each window, I think I'm going to post it in a separate thread.

It's true that the fence is a more exposed location for the shooters than a secured section of the CRB but it's more probable that the plotters decided to trade this off for a sure bet on the kill shot, IMO.

Could be. But I sure hope that "sure bet on the kill shot" wasn't supposed to come from the "Badge Man" location. Either that, or I hope that my model has some pretty significant elevation problems that I can get corrected. Because here's the "Badge Man" view of the "sure bet on the kill shot" the way it looks to me in the model at the moment:

I'm actually hoping someone can provide some photographic evidence that would demonstrate that that's not the way it is, which would help me find flaws in the model's elevations. That's all I can conceive it to be, because the locations of landmarks are according to the Dealey Plaza schematics in circulation.

Craig Roberts' statements posted by Myra are persuasive

That's very interesting to hear. I thought they read like spy fiction. I much prefer a quote that Mr. Roberts has at the top his own web site, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." I found the passage Myra quoted to be 99 and 99 one hundredths pure theory without a single substantive fact in view, and mused that Mr. Roberts could do worse than to follow the advice on his web site. Then again, I don't have books to sell, so I may be biased.

Mr Roberts is essentially an expert witness who is testifying as such. That kind of testimony is acceptable in a court of law, but is not acceptable to you Ashton? You seem quite dismissive of a viewpoint that doesn't agree with your own, while not stating a logical argument against it.

I found Roberts' statements persuasive too, and was wondering how you would address them. If the best you can come up with is that he's just trying to peddle a book, then your logic would imply that the input of anyone who has written a book is worthless.

Let's all make sure we never write a book folks, lest we be instantly discredited.

Hello Ashton:

I posted the wrong County Courts photo last evening...this below show all..dated 11-14-64.

I doubt that anyone has made up their mind completely, in anything let alone where the shots came from, many have

done great research in the areas of where the possibilities could be..we trudge along.

Nothing is written in stone, in the JFK assassination..as we never know what tomorrow may unveil, then

must be researched further to come to a finding of whether true or false..neverendingstory..

I have been looking at your Badge man location, your wall, I am thinking is too high ?, I will show

the possible why below.. one is taken when the old fence still remained..the other is newer, but

perhaps you will see what I mean.......

Also some time, in later years through heavy rains, the knoll suffered damage

and suffered a mud slide of sorts, and all had to be repaired...and rebuilt, in some areas. I think it very

possible that at that time that area could have been enforced, shifted to some degree higher ? and perhaps this could be the reason.

I believe Gerry Dealey could inform you of all, I believe he was the man who informed me, some time ago.

I enjoy your research, as you make us think.......about the many possibilities, and imo

that should never end. As you may recall I also wonder of the possibility of a shot from the

corner of the fence, nearest the underpass..?

I am also posting a scan, from where now ?? of a possible shot scenario, one being from the County Courts

it may help in some way...in perspective.....

I have run out of photo space, will return with the area where Sam Holland believed the smoke came

from.....will delete some...

Please continue...

B

Mighty fine pix Bernice, thank you.

[Myra Bronstein]

Meanwhile, on this web page is a motion picture of a man very graphically getting the right front part of his skull blown outward—over and over and over and over and over. Go look, with your eyeballs. Go observe for yourself without listening to the cacophony of ten thousand contradictory voices telling you that what you see is not what you see. Then come back and tell me that you see the back of his head being blown out. I want to hear you say it, right here, in this thread.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Thanks for waiting Ashton. What I saw at that link is the Zapruder film, which I don't trust at all because I'm convinced it's altered. See the current Zapruder thread for details.

You don't have any "ballistic or medical information" that isn't contradictory! Go look with your eyeballs at the link I just gave you, and tell me what you see! Do you need some "expert" <SPIT!> to grant you a license to observe what is right before your eyes?

What's right before our eyes is, in my view, an altered film that is not credible evidence.

Well, do you? If so, why do you? Have you ever seen, with your own eyes any slightest physical evidence of any such thing?

You demand that someone see things with their own eyes to consider it valid (tho' few of us, if any, were in Dealey Plaza that day). Yet when someone has seen something with their own eyes, you dismiss it as you did Craig Roberts' input. What's left Ashton?

[Ashton Gray]

Bernice, thanks again for all your help and great photos.

I used several of them to locate "Hat Man" and the area of the smoke for my "Exhibit A" image earlier in this thread, and I wanted to let you know how I went about it to see if it makes sense to you.

First, this is the image you uploaded that seemed to give the best reference points:

I tried to approximate that as closely as I could (with my funky foliage, tree obviously not "bent" correctly) and placed a "Hat Man" person at what I thought was the right location:

When I turned shadows on, he is nothing but shadow, and the other tree foliage shadows don't match up, of course, but then again my "foliage" is 2D and doesn't approach the physical reality at all. But here it is.

Based on that location for "Hat Man" (and based on my understanding that the smoke came from about his same location), I've now done an overview that I hope takes into account all of the shooters that have been postulated to have been in the general area of the corner of the fence:

The distance from the three men on the steps to each of the "shooters" behind the fence is approximately 25 feet. The distance from the three men on the steps to "Black Dog Man" (Dog? What dog?) is less than 20 feet by my calculations.

By the way, on your earlier fence height suggestion: I have the fence five feet high, a figure I got from one of Jack's forum posts. If that isn't correct, someone let me know and I will adjust it.

Hope this helps all concerned.

Ashton

[Bernice Moore]

Hello Ashton,

Your welcome as all are, if I have anything that may possibley help in anyway...

It was the cement wall to the right of the steps, some call the BDogM area, not the fence,

I think that may be too high, in your re-creation..when compared with the photos.?

There also was a RRman, seen in the yard...before, and after I do believe...such

as could be seen within the Badgeman photo, to the side of the rifleman...Bowers

was not the only one who mentions him.

But, ? it is somewhere in the witnesses statements...could have been the one seen eventually

by Ed Hoffman, who broke

down a rifle, and loaded it into the RRBox, at the extreme North end of the fence

by the underpass...picked up his tool box and walked away over the railroad tracks ...

And was it Jesse Price ? who was on the roof of the Post Office , and worked there

that saw a young man

run from the area of where hat man has been seen in the Nix film, with something in his

hand, he ran over the tracks, and down towards in the direction of the back of the TSBD..

Re your re-creation, I have never noted that anything but the hat was seen, moving and then

disappearing within the Nix film.?

Also there was only one that I can recall now, perhaps Jack will help with details, he may

recall...when Jean

Hill proceeded to the top of the steps, and beyond to the parking lot, she saw a DPM,

to her right holding a rifle...towards that end of the fence...where Badgeman is seen.

I think that was mentioned ?

Below, I copied verbatim from Mark Lanes tape,

."Rush to Judgement: note SS Forrest Sorrels info

that Nix also mentions..

Mark Lane: "Mr.Nix .Where were you on November 22nd ?.."

Orville Nix: "I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston "..(Sts).

Mark Lane: "And did you take any pictures of the Presidental Limousine as it went through Dealey Plaza ?.."

Orville Nix: "Yes, I had taken pictures before and after --before and during the assassination "..

Mark Lane: "And you know of course that your pictures were used by the Government to determine where the limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "Yes "..

Mark Lane:"And did you deliver a copy of your film to the Federal Government ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, I delivered a copy of my film to the Federal Government about December 1st "..

Mark Lane:"About a little over a week after the assassination ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, my film got lost in the processing plant !"..

Mark Lane: "Where is the original film ?"..

Orville Nix: "The original film --uh--belonged to United Press International .The Government has a duplicate copy "..

Mark Lane: " Where is that copy ?"..

Orville Nix: " In the Archives"..

Mark Lane:"And is that the duplicate copy which was used by the Warren Commission determining along with other films, the Muchmore film and the Zapruder film where the Presidential limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "I would say so"..

Mark Lane: "Well you now have a copy, of your film which you were kind enough to show to us this afternoon .Is that copy the same as the original that you gave to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: " I would say, No--- there is some films maybe missing---some --uh--frames--uh--some of the frames were ruined "..

Mark Lane :"Does the film which you have at the present time ,have the same number of frames as the film that you delivered to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: "--uh--I would say No--but its' cause of loosing maybe a --uh--frame --uh--here and there "..

Mark Lane :" At the time of the shots were fired ,did you look at the Book Depository building ?"..

Orville Nix :" No"..

Mark Lane : " Did you think ,at that time ,that the shots came from the Book Depository ?"..

Orville Nix : "No, I thought it came from a fence --uh--between the Book Depository and the Railroad Track"..

Mark Lane:"--uh--Did anyone else ,who you know, that you've spoken with ,also believe that the shots came from there "..

Orville Nix: " Most everyone thought it came from the fence behind the Book Depository "..

Mark Lane :"Did you have the occasion to speak with Forrest Sorrels ---who is of course a friend of yours ,and is the Secret Service agent in charge of Dallas that day ?"..

Orville Nix:" Yes, I did "..

Mark Lane : "Did he tell you where the thought the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " He thought they came from the same place"..

Mark Lane : " Which is ?"..

Orville Nix: "Behind the fence"..

Mark Lane : " At the present time where do you believe the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " Well they came from the Book Depository because there's proof it did come from there "..

Mark Lane :" I see---and this you've read in Newspapers and you've read the Report ?"..

Orville Nix :" Yes,--er-- I believe the Warren Report"..

*****************************************end of his interview on tape****

I do think that re Police Dept officers, are they not trained, in the reverbration of the sound of shots?

and the knowledge of the direction of where they are coming from .Was it Motorcycle Officer Hargis,? that

dropped his bike and can be seen standing looking over the fence in Cabluck's photo, he was the first to reach

that North end of the fence overpass..I believe he mentions, to him it sounded as though it came from that direction.

I do believe there were simply too many people, in the area further down Elm, as well as in the immediate

area, who saw and ducked as shots came over their heads, and or towards them, as Mary Moorman relates

and they felt for safetys sake they needed to get down on the ground....all cannot be in error....only after that did the Motorcyclist

park his bike and run up the hill...not before, and not all followed him immediately, some did within a pause

seemingly after the shots ceased, and yes they did eventually follow him...and some, ran up the steps to the parking lot, not all, you can see within the photos, some people did not follow...and we must I think keep in mind, this was all within seconds, not minutes, this took place and was over very quickly....so I personally do not see the actions of lemmings, if so then why did not everyone from the Elm & Houston corner also run, in that direction ? Perhaps because there were shots from different shooters in different spots, and others heard what they took to be shots from other buildings and or areas.....

I don't believe they would put all their eggs in one basket..this was no fly in that day, event.....by second rate shooters....nothing it appears was second rate.....they would not limit themselves to only one shooter, imo, in case he missed, and or something went wrong within his spot....there had to be more than one or two, IMO..JFK was not going to leave Dealey Plaza..alive..

One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??

I have also read that in

a court of law, the witness testimony is taken over any photographic evidence, but that could have been

in error, as I simply do not know, for sure...and or changed by now..

When you state that all has been and is, words to the effect,

completely screwed up, I agree whole heartedly, and that is the way, they presented all and do so deliberatley, and today as well......

We must I believe keep in mind what we have be told many times, the Government only releases what they want you to see and hear......nothing more......and in their own good time, which makes it all the more difficult to discern between facts and fiction and altered information......and as a result here we are 43 years later, still trying to thrash it out..

Your work in the re-creations are well done, and like say a detective you are creating what you believe to be plausibe scenarios and then persue what could be theories associated with such perhaps, in searching for the truth...but only by looking at all imo, can that hopefully be accomplished.......if possible at this late date....please carry on.

Thanks B..

Edited December 6, 2006 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Grote]

Hello Ashton,

Your welcome as all are, if I have anything that may possibley help in anyway...

It was the cement wall to the right of the steps, some call the BDogM area, not the fence,

I think that may be too high, in your re-creation..when compared with the photos.?

There also was a RRman, seen in the yard...before, and after I do believe...such

as could be seen within the Badgeman photo, to the side of the rifleman...Bowers

was not the only one who mentions him.

But, ? it is somewhere in the witnesses statements...could have been the one seen eventually

by Ed Hoffman, who broke

down a rifle, and loaded it into the RRBox, at the extreme North end of the fence

by the underpass...picked up his tool box and walked away over the railroad tracks ...

And was it Jesse Price ? who was on the roof of the Post Office , and worked there

that saw a young man

run from the area of where hat man has been seen in the Nix film, with something in his

hand, he ran over the tracks, and down towards in the direction of the back of the TSBD..

Re your re-creation, I have never noted that anything but the hat was seen, moving and then

disappearing within the Nix film.?

Also there was only one that I can recall now, perhaps Jack will help with details, he may

recall...when Jean

Hill proceeded to the top of the steps, and beyond to the parking lot, she saw a DPM,

to her right holding a rifle...towards that end of the fence...where Badgeman is seen.

I think that was mentioned ?

Below, I copied verbatim from Mark Lanes tape,

."Rush to Judgement: note SS Forrest Sorrels info

that Nix also mentions..

Mark Lane: "Mr.Nix .Where were you on November 22nd ?.."

Orville Nix: "I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston "..(Sts).

Mark Lane: "And did you take any pictures of the Presidental Limousine as it went through Dealey Plaza ?.."

Orville Nix: "Yes, I had taken pictures before and after --before and during the assassination "..

Mark Lane: "And you know of course that your pictures were used by the Government to determine where the limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "Yes "..

Mark Lane:"And did you deliver a copy of your film to the Federal Government ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, I delivered a copy of my film to the Federal Government about December 1st "..

Mark Lane:"About a little over a week after the assassination ?"..

Orville Nix:"Yes, my film got lost in the processing plant !"..

Mark Lane: "Where is the original film ?"..

Orville Nix: "The original film --uh--belonged to United Press International .The Government has a duplicate copy "..

Mark Lane: " Where is that copy ?"..

Orville Nix: " In the Archives"..

Mark Lane:"And is that the duplicate copy which was used by the Warren Commission determining along with other films, the Muchmore film and the Zapruder film where the Presidential limousine was when some of the shots were fired ?"..

Orville Nix: "I would say so"..

Mark Lane: "Well you now have a copy, of your film which you were kind enough to show to us this afternoon .Is that copy the same as the original that you gave to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: " I would say, No--- there is some films maybe missing---some --uh--frames--uh--some of the frames were ruined "..

Mark Lane :"Does the film which you have at the present time ,have the same number of frames as the film that you delivered to the FBI on December 1st ?"..

Orville Nix: "--uh--I would say No--but its' cause of loosing maybe a --uh--frame --uh--here and there "..

Mark Lane :" At the time of the shots were fired ,did you look at the Book Depository building ?"..

Orville Nix :" No"..

Mark Lane : " Did you think ,at that time ,that the shots came from the Book Depository ?"..

Orville Nix : "No, I thought it came from a fence --uh--between the Book Depository and the Railroad Track"..

Mark Lane:"--uh--Did anyone else ,who you know, that you've spoken with ,also believe that the shots came from there "..

Orville Nix: " Most everyone thought it came from the fence behind the Book Depository "..

Mark Lane :"Did you have the occasion to speak with Forrest Sorrels ---who is of course a friend of yours ,and is the Secret Service agent in charge of Dallas that day ?"..

Orville Nix:" Yes, I did "..

Mark Lane : "Did he tell you where the thought the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " He thought they came from the same place"..

Mark Lane : " Which is ?"..

Orville Nix: "Behind the fence"..

Mark Lane : " At the present time where do you believe the shots came from ?"..

Orville Nix : " Well they came from the Book Depository because there's proof it did come from there "..

Mark Lane :" I see---and this you've read in Newspapers and you've read the Report ?"..

Orville Nix :" Yes,--er-- I believe the Warren Report"..

*****************************************end of his interview on tape****

I do think that re Police Dept officers, are they not trained, in the reverbration of the sound of shots?

and the knowledge of the direction of where they are coming from .Was it Motorcycle Officer Hargis,? that

dropped his bike and can be seen standing looking over the fence in Cabluck's photo, he was the first to reach

that North end of the fence overpass..I believe he mentions, to him it sounded as though it came from that direction.

I do believe there were simply too many people, in the area further down Elm, as well as in the immediate

area, who saw and ducked as shots came over their heads, and or towards them, as Mary Moorman relates

and they felt for safetys sake they needed to get down on the ground....all cannot be in error....only after that did the Motorcyclist

park his bike and run up the hill...not before, and not all followed him immediately, some did within a pause

seemingly after the shots ceased, and yes they did eventually follow him...and some, ran up the steps to the parking lot, not all, you can see within the photos, some people did not follow...and we must I think keep in mind, this was all within seconds, not minutes, this took place and was over very quickly....so I personally do not see the actions of lemmings, if so then why did not everyone from the Elm & Houston corner also run, in that direction ? Perhaps because there were shots from different shooters in different spots, and others heard what they took to be shots from other buildings and or areas.....

I don't believe they would put all their eggs in one basket..this was no fly in that day, event.....by second rate shooters....nothing it appears was second rate.....they would not limit themselves to only one shooter, imo, in case he missed, and or something went wrong within his spot....there had to be more than one or two, IMO..JFK was not going to leave Dealey Plaza..alive..

One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??

I have also read that in

a court of law, the witness testimony is taken over any photographic evidence, but that could have been

in error, as I simply do not know, for sure...and or changed by now..

When you state that all has been and is, words to the effect,

completely screwed up, I agree whole heartedly, and that is the way, they presented all and do so deliberatley, and today as well......

We must I believe keep in mind what we have be told many times, the Government only releases what they want you to see and hear......nothing more......and in their own good time, which makes it all the more difficult to discern between facts and fiction and altered information......and as a result here we are 43 years later, still trying to thrash it out..

Your work in the re-creations are well done, and like say a detective you are creating what you believe to be plausibe scenarios and then persue what could be theories associated with such perhaps, in searching for the truth...but only by looking at all imo, can that hopefully be accomplished.......if possible at this late date....please carry on.

Thanks B..

This may be a dumb question, but what about Tosh Plumbee's assertion that the North Knoll/Railway Bridge area was where a shot was fired from? Or at least the North Knoll where he said that he smelled gun powder after the shooting.

-- Bill Grote

[Ashton Gray]

Hi, Bernice,

It was the cement wall to the right of the steps, some call the BDogM area, not the fence, I think that may be too high, in your re-creation..when compared with the photos.?

Ohhhhhhhh.

See, I'm not real fast, but the good news is that when I get it, I really get. So: got it!

And that aligns totally with something Gary Mack just sent me, saying that my "Badge Man" location image of the head shot was way off; that the retaining wall you're talking about would not be in the way (if a person was standing on something behind the picket fence).

I think I may know now where such a glitch might have entered, when I resized the entire model, but had to resize the pergolas separately. I just noticed that they might not be correctly set "into" the terrain, making them slightly elevated. I can't go re-tooling all that at the moment, but plan to this weekend, and will get some new images generated when I do.

As an aside, I just got the good news that I'm going to have a limosine modeled from the HSCA schematic sent to me probably sometime this weekend to use in the model, and by next week it looks like I'm also going to have some articulated 3D people to put in for JFK and Jacquie, so will be able to get them into correct positions, and even animate things to a degree.

There also was a RRman, seen in the yard...before, and after I do believe...such

as could be seen within the Badgeman photo, to the side of the rifleman...Bowers

was not the only one who mentions him.

But, ? it is somewhere in the witnesses statements...could have been the one seen eventually

by Ed Hoffman, who broke

down a rifle, and loaded it into the RRBox, at the extreme North end of the fence

by the underpass...picked up his tool box and walked away over the railroad tracks ...

Any and all of these (and the other stuff you mentioned) I'll be happy to put in the model if I can get locations described as closely as possible.

I personally do not see the actions of lemmings, if so then why did not everyone from the Elm & Houston corner also run, in that direction ?

I don't see it as "the actions of lemmings" either (although I found John Dolva's information of interest), and of course everyone in Dealey Plaza didn't suddenly and mechanically bolt into the railroad yard/TSBD lot. I do very much, though, believe that there was planned misdirection there, and I believe that Decker's immediate announcement was entirely scripted.

As you say:

nothing it appears was second rate...JFK was not going to leave Dealey Plaza..alive..

I entirely agree. And I believe that includes the red herrings and misdirection: they weren't second rate, either.

One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??

My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.

like say a detective you are creating what you believe to be plausibe scenarios and then persue what could be theories associated with such perhaps, in searching for the truth...

And I will continue unabated—as long as they don't turn the forum into a popularity contest.

but only by looking at all imo, can that hopefully be accomplished.......if possible at this late date....

I couldn't agree more, Bernice, which is why I'm completely amenable to putting in anything anyone requests, and viewing the scene from any viewpoint anyone requests. And I only hope this work will help all be able to look in ways never possible before. For me, it already has.

please carry on.

Count on it.

Ashton

Edited December 6, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

what about Tosh Plumbee's assertion that the North Knoll/Railway Bridge area was where a shot was fired from? Or at least the North Knoll where he said that he smelled gun powder after the shooting.

Hi, Bill. If I recall correctly Plumlee said something along those lines about the South, not North, Knoll, but I've never been able to find anything giving a specific location, or I'd be happy to set up a view from there. In fact, someone asked for a view from the South Knoll several months back, and I did one or two images taken from there, but it was all guesswork about where to position the virtual camera. Although Dealey Plaza is a "small' area, it's also true that it contains a practical infinity of points from which to view. If someone will provide some kind of coordinate guidelines, in terms even of approximate number of yards from (fill in the blank), I'll be happy to set it up.

I'm still hoping that Tosh Plumlee will pick up the white courtesy phone for the questions I've already got sitting in the forum for him, and if a dialogue starts, I'll certainly try to get more information about this.

Ashton

[Terry Mauro]

Meanwhile, on this web page is a motion picture of a man very graphically getting the right front part of his skull blown outward—over and over and over and over and over. Go look, with your eyeballs. Go observe for yourself without listening to the cacophony of ten thousand contradictory voices telling you that what you see is not what you see. Then come back and tell me that you see the back of his head being blown out. I want to hear you say it, right here, in this thread.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Thanks for waiting Ashton. What I saw at that link is the Zapruder film, which I don't trust at all because I'm convinced it's altered. See the current Zapruder thread for details.

You don't have any "ballistic or medical information" that isn't contradictory! Go look with your eyeballs at the link I just gave you, and tell me what you see! Do you need some "expert" <SPIT!> to grant you a license to observe what is right before your eyes?

What's right before our eyes is, in my view, an altered film that is not credible evidence.

Well, do you? If so, why do you? Have you ever seen, with your own eyes any slightest physical evidence of any such thing?

You demand that someone see things with their own eyes to consider it valid (tho' few of us, if any, were in Dealey Plaza that day). Yet when someone has seen something with their own eyes, you dismiss it as you did Craig Roberts' input. What's left Ashton?

*****************************************************

"What's right before our eyes is, in my view, an altered film that is not credible evidence."

"You demand that someone see things with their own eyes to consider it valid (though few of us, if any, were in Dealey Plaza that day). Yet when someone has seen something with their own eyes, you dismiss it as you did Craig Roberts' input. What's left Ashton?"

Ditto.

[Ashton Gray]

What's left Ashton?

Why, Myra: I haven't taken any of your toys away from you. You and Ditto have everything you've had for the past 43 years.

I've merely made my own observations about some parts of it that I consider garbage, and have said why. I haven't asked you or anyone to agree.

You still have all the "testimony" and "experts" and "evidence" that you and the world have had available for 43 years. I wouldn't dream of taking even the tiniest scintilla or mote of it away from you.

In fact, my lay advice is for you and Ditto to stick with it completely, ignore the films completely, and ignore every image and word I have posted in this forum. I think you'll both feel better generally.

Ashton

[Terry Mauro]

Hi, Bernice,

It was the cement wall to the right of the steps, some call the BDogM area, not the fence, I think that may be too high, in your re-creation..when compared with the photos.?

Ohhhhhhhh.

See, I'm not real fast, but the good news is that when I get it, I really get. So: got it!

And that aligns totally with something Gary Mack just sent me, saying that my "Badge Man" location image of the head shot was way off; that the retaining wall you're talking about would not be in the way (if a person was standing on something behind the picket fence).

I think I may know now where such a glitch might have entered, when I resized the entire model, but had to resize the pergolas separately. I just noticed that they might not be correctly set "into" the terrain, making them slightly elevated. I can't go re-tooling all that at the moment, but plan to this weekend, and will get some new images generated when I do.

As an aside, I just got the good news that I'm going to have a limosine modeled from the HSCA schematic sent to me probably sometime this weekend to use in the model, and by next week it looks like I'm also going to have some articulated 3D people to put in for JFK and Jacquie, so will be able to get them into correct positions, and even animate things to a degree.

There also was a RRman, seen in the yard...before, and after I do believe...such

as could be seen within the Badgeman photo, to the side of the rifleman...Bowers

was not the only one who mentions him.

But, ? it is somewhere in the witnesses statements...could have been the one seen eventually

by Ed Hoffman, who broke

down a rifle, and loaded it into the RRBox, at the extreme North end of the fence

by the underpass...picked up his tool box and walked away over the railroad tracks ...

Any and all of these (and the other stuff you mentioned) I'll be happy to put in the model if I can get locations described as closely as possible.

I personally do not see the actions of lemmings, if so then why did not everyone from the Elm & Houston corner also run, in that direction ?

I don't see it as "the actions of lemmings" either (although I found John Dolva's information of interest), and of course everyone in Dealey Plaza didn't suddenly and mechanically bolt into the railroad yard/TSBD lot. I do very much, though, believe that there was planned misdirection there, and I believe that Decker's immediate announcement was entirely scripted.

As you say:

nothing it appears was second rate...JFK was not going to leave Dealey Plaza..alive..

I entirely agree. And I believe that includes the red herrings and misdirection: they weren't second rate, either.

One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??

My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.

like say a detective you are creating what you believe to be plausibe scenarios and then persue what could be theories associated with such perhaps, in searching for the truth...

And I will continue unabated—as long as they don't turn the forum into a popularity contest.

but only by looking at all imo, can that hopefully be accomplished.......if possible at this late date....

I couldn't agree more, Bernice, which is why I'm completely amenable to putting in anything anyone requests, and viewing the scene from any viewpoint anyone requests. And I only hope this work will help all be able to look in ways never possible before. For me, it already has.

please carry on.

Count on it.

Ashton

***************************************************

"And I will continue unabated—as long as they don't turn the forum into a popularity contest."

And, you can bet your sweet bippy, there ain't no congeniality awards to be given out here, either. We all reserve the right to "agree to disagree." That's the only way we've been able to sift through the mounds of info allotted to us, mis and dis, as well as whatever else could be considered as correct. Why do you think it's been taking us so damned long?

As Bernie said, though. "Carry on."

Your fellow student in research,

"Ditto"

Edited December 6, 2006 by Terry Mauro

[Cliff Varnell]

I do very much, though, believe that there was planned misdirection there, and I believe that Decker's immediate announcement was entirely scripted.

You got the right ta ta but the wrong ho ho.

Who were the cops scouring the back-fence area for evidence of shooters?

Probably the shooters themselves.

[Cliff Varnell]

I do very much, though, believe that there was planned misdirection there, and I believe that Decker's immediate announcement was entirely scripted.

You got the right ta ta but the wrong ho ho.

Who were the cops scouring the back-fence area for evidence of shooters?

Probably the shooters themselves.

[cue Joe Pesci]

Don't you GET IT??