Who were the shooters?

[Ashton Gray]

NOTICE: This, regrettably, is a gang reply. I can't keep waiting for a new queue to form before I can post again. Life ain't that long.

Ashton,

As regards the size of the trees you may be absolutely right.

I did scare up a few reference images for the north peristyle trees, all from around the time of the assassination as far as I can determine. None are great, but I believe you can see what I mean:

The last one has the new courthouse building in it helping to date it as around or post assassination, and the others do, too, but I cropped them to focus on the north peristyle. Although it's winter in the bottom photo, the red arrow points to the stubby little young tree, and the one further north is about the same size, as can be made out—not well, but can be made out—in the upper two arials.

Your work and I mean WORK is superb and evidence of long hours of painstaking labour.

That's awfully kind of you, Eugene, but truth is once I got the hang of the program and how to "project" building images onto the shapes "pulled" out of available schematics, it went surprisingly fast. The pergolas and peristyles were another story, and of course the terrain I'm never satisfied with, but the trees, fence, vehicles are all from public domain stock 3D models (tweaked as necessary).

It's definitely the po' man's Dealey Plaza. But I was contemptuous beyond expression of the fact that Myers would take however much silver he took to do his elaborate 3D model, and then allow its accessibility and use for nothing but a RightThink Single Bullet Theory Propagandcast. <SPIT!> So I decided to do whatever I could about it. And I don't regret a single dime or minute invested in it so far.

I knock my images off in a matter of seconds.

All right, that's it: I want all your secrets, and I want 'em now!

TO PETER LEMKIN:

Ashton, I know it is a lot of work, but to do the view from the tower to the fence justice would take at least the last two rows [nearest fence] of vehicles would have to be put in to get an idea of the confusion to the eye there. Also various RR tracks, switing boxes, etc.

Peter, you really know how to hurt a guy.

You got any reference for how many cars were parked where? I'll put some cars in there if I know where to put 'em. (But if you really want to see 1963 Edsels, Corvairs, and Ramblers modeled, don't hold your breath.) And reference for the "switching boxes, etc."? I have a schematic with the tracks, they just haven't been high on my list of priorities.

TO LEE FOREMAN:

Lee, I asked you for a specific location in the bushes by the peristyle, and you gave me a link to a two page forum thread for me to have to wade through even to begin to deduce what you meant. I'll try again: Do you have a specific location you want the view from? If so tell me or post an image with it marked.

TO MICHAEL G. SMITH:

Hey, Smitty. I did one view from the Dal-Tex roof and posted it already. I think it's in the thread called A New Angle on Murder. It didn't have motorcade vehicles in place, though, and I at least have some stand-ins for those now. I'll do some virtual roof-hopping as soon as I can, but it may not be till this weekend.

TO CLIFF VARNELL:

I haven't mentioned the throat wound. I don't expect to any time in the foreseeable future.

TO MARK STAPLETON:

Don't know enough about Ms. Mercer's statements to comment, Mark. Sorry.

TO DREW WILLIAMS

Thanks for starting this topic, Drew. Not only am I having a lot of fun with it, I'm learning a lot as I go, too. How about you?

If I missed something or someone in this very long thread, it was an oversight, so just kick me in the shins and remind me.

Ashton

[Cliff Varnell]

TO CLIFF VARNELL:

I haven't mentioned the throat wound. I don't expect to any time in the foreseeable future.

^^^

Wise choice. Rock on...

Edited November 30, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

I knock my images off in a matter of seconds.

All right, that's it: I want all your secrets, and I want 'em now!

Ashton,

Ok, ok ....so I was boasting. It actually takes about 1 minute 34 seconds.....at most, mind you.

I agree with the trees idea. 'My' trees are far too big!

EBC

Edited November 30, 2006 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Lee Forman]

TO LEE FORMAN:

Lee, I asked you for a specific location in the bushes by the peristyle, and you gave me a link to a two page forum thread for me to have to wade through even to begin to deduce what you meant. I'll try again: Do you have a specific location you want the view from? If so tell me or post an image with it marked.

Yes - using a crop from Roberdeau's plat - in the general area of the red line indicated. Or the red square on the image.

- lee

[Mark Stapleton]

Ashton,

Julia Ann Mercer, a 23 yo Dallas resident, was driving a rented Valiant on Elm Street early on November 22. She noticed a truck parked on the right hand side of the road, half up on the curb, protruding into the street and partially blocking traffic. It was a green Ford pickup with the words 'air conditioning' in black on the driver's side. From Mark Lane's Rush To Judgement (pp29-31):

Miss Mercer saw a heavy set middle aged man in a green jacket 'slouched over the wheel' of the truck while the other man 'reached over the tailgate' and took out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case.....The man then 'proceeded to walk away from the truck and as he did, the small end of the case caught in the grass or sidewalk and he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass'.

Miss Mercer was able to give a rather detailed description of that man. He was 'a white male, late 20's or early 30's, and he was wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt'

Mercer submitted an affidavit for the Dallas Sheriff's office on November 22 but was not called to testify before the WC. Interestingly, her description fits that given by Lee Bowers of the two men he saw standing near the fence just before the shots were fired. He described one as 'middle aged' and 'fairly heavy-set' and the other as 'about midtwenties in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket'.

It should be noted that Mercer also stated that there were three policemen standing on the bridge overlooking the truck while she was there. All this might indicate that a murder weapon was being delivered, although the gun case may have been empty. IMO, it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that the two men were part of a diversion which was implanted, at least partially, under the watchful eye of the DPD.

[Lee Forman]

Ashton,

There is quite a bit to substantiate shooters on the North side of Elm. I will try to give you a rundown when I get a moment.

On the burning of the hands - there was a steampipe behind the fence at the underpass which ran to a drain. The pipe was heavily insulated at the point near the drain, which as I tried to point out elsewhere, would provide additional credibility to the account of Gordon Arnold, who claimed he straddled said pipe when he was accosted by some form of authority, while trying to enter the area. The pipe was not insulated at the fence. You can find photos of this area here in the Forum - or I can dig out several to send to you.

Also, there remains the accounts of Ed Hoffman, Lee Bowers, James Altgens [Lifton interview], Smith, Holland, Hudson, Hill and others - plus whatever 'off-the-record' stuff myself and others have attempted to dig up.

Anyway, when I get a moment I will try to see if I can paint the scenario for you - a lot is already buried in a lot of other threads.

- lee

[Cliff Varnell]

Ashton,

There is quite a bit to substantiate shooters on the North side of Elm.

The throat shot could only have come from that direction.

[Ashton Gray]

Here's a round-up of requested views. Determining a "correct" field of view for the virtual camera is pretty iffy, and I may need to lick this calf again, but I had a very little bit of time and wanted to try to accommodate some of the requests as well as I could in the circumstances. One of the circumstances, though, is that I've begun to populate the motorcade, and the 3D people are putting a significant strain on my system processing power now, so everything has gotten very slow to update, making critical positioning/pan/tilt/yaw painful in the extreme.

Here's what I could do, though, with the motorcade set up in a rough approximation of head-shot time:

FOR LEE FOREMAN—NEAR NORTH PERISTYLE STEPS

Lee I think that is very close to where you indicated. The problem that won't be overcome anytime soon, though, is the absence of spectators in this model.

DON'T KNOW FOR WHOM—SOUTH RAILWAY OVERPASS AND NEAR SOUTH PERGOLA

FOR SMITTY—SOME ROOF HOPPING

TSBD Roof:

Dal-Tex Roof:

I have another from the County Courts roof, but the forum software says I've reached my limit of images. Sorry. Will post it next time I can post in this thread.

Ashton

[Michael G. Smith]

Here's a round-up of requested views. Determining a "correct" field of view for the virtual camera is pretty iffy, and I may need to lick this calf again, but I had a very little bit of time and wanted to try to accommodate some of the requests as well as I could in the circumstances. One of the circumstances, though, is that I've begun to populate the motorcade, and the 3D people are putting a significant strain on my system processing power now, so everything has gotten very slow to update, making critical positioning/pan/tilt/yaw painful in the extreme.

Here's what I could do, though, with the motorcade set up in a rough approximation of head-shot time:

FOR LEE FOREMAN—NEAR NORTH PERISTYLE STEPS

Lee I think that is very close to where you indicated. The problem that won't be overcome anytime soon, though, is the absence of spectators in this model.

DON'T KNOW FOR WHOM—SOUTH RAILWAY OVERPASS AND NEAR SOUTH PERGOLA

FOR SMITTY—SOME ROOF HOPPING

TSBD Roof:

Dal-Tex Roof:

I have another from the County Courts roof, but the forum software says I've reached my limit of images. Sorry. Will post it next time I can post in this thread.

Ashton

Thanks so much Ashton! Those are great images, and i cant believe you got to them so fast!. [i was only kidding about doing them!! LOL] Even if they are off a bit, your images im sure are VERY close. The roofs look to be great positions to get off the shots that were fired. Shooting from the TSBD roof would also be in alignment for the OSWALD shots, and would fall into their theory. The angle from the Dal-Tex building also looks great. From what i understand, the buildings had "turrets", if you will, around the outer edges of the roofs. Perfect hiding spots until ready to shoot. Plus, if anyone did see anyone up there, they would probably figure them to be , Secret Service, Dallas PD, etc.... doing their protective duties. Shots from the Records or Courts buildings [cant wait to see them if you get them posted] would also, im sure, be perfect "ambush' sites. As stated earlier, emptying the Courts building, and sending "all available men" to the parking area, would have given the shooter, or shooters/spotters a perfect exit right out the front door if needed. If indeed, there was a rifle found on the TSBD roof, as stated and filmed, only ads to the theory of these shooters. It only makes sense, to me at least, that being out side, higher than anyone else, no chance of anyone "happening' across you inside, and also an easier escape. [lesser chance of anyone to see you leaving] Just my opion, FWIW. Thanks so much again for the images!

--Smitty

[Ashton Gray]

Thanks so much again for the images!

--Smitty

Very glad to help. And for the record, anything and everything I post in this forum is for the public good and is irrevocably placed into the public domain.

Here is the view from the County Courts roof that I wasn't able to post earlier (have not done one from County Records roof):

And just as lagniappe for all the good forum friends and neighbors in the "head shot came from the knoll fence area" camp, here's what the shot would have been from near the corner of the fence (which, as far as I can tell, only gets worse the further toward the overpass you go):

Ashton

[Myra Bronstein]

(For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.)

Sacre Blue!

But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke?

Alright listen up! I already explained about the delay from the fake SS guys. And you acknowledged it. Please don't make me repeat myself, and don't make me resort to actual quoting. That's work.

1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and,

They're blowing smoke up our... they're blowing smoke!

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

Fascinatin' premise. Yer thinking outside the box there, or the plaza. I need to find a study photos and schematics.

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?

Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters.

Woah, I followed the links and did in fact find something so jaw-dropping, so utterly incredible, so beyond comprehension that I am now the almost speechless one:

While pithiness is next to sphinxliness, clarity tends to work gooder.

Asthon

Ashton Gray, the prophet of pithiness. Lordy lordy.

Anyway, your premise is intruiging. And Lee Bowers did say he saw something in the parking lot, like an explosion; he didn't call it gunfire. And he did die a prompt and sinister death.

[Jack White]

(For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.)

Sacre Blue!

But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke?

Alright listen up! I already explained about the delay from the fake SS guys. And you acknowledged it. Please don't make me repeat myself, and don't make me resort to actual quoting. That's work.

1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and,

They're blowing smoke up our... they're blowing smoke!

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

Fascinatin' premise. Yer thinking outside the box there, or the plaza. I need to find a study photos and schematics.

And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?

Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters.

Woah, I followed the links and did in fact find something so jaw-dropping, so utterly incredible, so beyond comprehension that I am now the almost speechless one:

While pithiness is next to sphinxliness, clarity tends to work gooder.

Asthon

Ashton Gray, the prophet of pithiness. Lordy lordy.

Anyway, your premise is intruiging. And Lee Bowers did say he saw something in the parking lot, like an explosion; he didn't call it gunfire. And he did die a prompt and sinister death.

"SMOKELESS GUNPOWDER" is a marketing term. It should say "LESS SMOKE GUNPOWDER"

because if you watch guns being fired, you will always see some amount of smoke, I have

been told by experts. It is just "less smoky" than in the days of muskets.

Jack

[Myra Bronstein]

Hi Myra - feel free to use anything I have ever posted - it's normal for me to cite a reference. No plagiarism involved.

Thanks Lee. And thanks for the article.

Yes - I still have that article. Let me dig for it.

Hmm...I'm not finding the part about the 2nd floor. Wow. I just found it. Very peculiar. There appears to have been 2 different editions that day of the same paper - phew - good thing I had more than one copy. Thought I had made an error. This is rich, check it out. Changed from SECOND floor to FIFTH floor, and added a blurb on Oswald. To make it fit, they had to remove the 'Wire News' in the 'Eagle Highlights' section.

Thanks for the exercise Myra - I enjoyed that. BTW - I think I did a thread, or added to a thread someplace, in which I attempted to compile material which indicated the 5th floor, as opposed to the 6th. It still my impression that there may have been more than one shooting party in the TSBD, on different floors, and including the use of a decoy.

Ah, the TSBD, not Dal-Tex. Ok, then it's not what I thought.

It's just that I have a philosphy that the closer we can get to the first word on the street, the more truth it'll contain. Pre-scrubbed.

[Michael Hogan]

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick, complete with accessories and fake mirrors, and when the curtain fell, the actors, and even the scenery disappeared . . . the plotters were correct when they guessed that their crime would be concealed by shadows and silences, that it would be blamed on a 'madman' and negligence.'

[Cliff Varnell]

As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.

President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick, complete with accessories and fake mirrors, and when the curtain fell, the actors, and even the scenery disappeared . . . the plotters were correct when they guessed that their crime would be concealed by shadows and silences, that it would be blamed on a 'madman' and negligence.'

I don't buy it. The assassination was designed to look like a conspiracy.

They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence and if anybody

got too wise they had a patsy named Jack in custody.

Pure speculation, of course, but methinks if Oswald had been gunned

down on Friday afternoon two guys in particular would have been sweating

bullets -- Fidel Castro and Jack Lawrence.

I think Jackie boy blew chunks back at the auto dealership cuz he realized

he'd been set up. When Oswald was captured alive, the Castro-did-it scenario

was pretty much dead.

Plan B wasn't what the plotters had in mind.