Guest Gary Loughran Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Hi Ashton, That's an interesting POV, I'm aware that you posted a thread with pictures previously (red, blue yellow court or some such.) To my point, have you factored in, during any of your CGI reconstructions, the crowds, heights, lines of sight in relation to this shooting position? Many Thanks Gary Edited November 24, 2006 by Gary Loughran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) This is just the vestige of yet another forum timeout-induced double post. Move along; nothing to see here... Edited November 25, 2006 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Hi Ashton, That's an interesting POV, I'm aware that you posted a thread with pictures previously (red, blue yellow court or some such.) To my point, have you factored in, during any of your CGI reconstructions, the crowds, heights, lines of sight in relation to this shooting position? Many Thanks Gary Hi, Gary. The short answer is "no," at least to the crowds, and including the positions of the motorcycle policemen at the time of the head shot. It's just far, far more than I can do. I had to play hooky from deadlines this morning for a little while just to set up that "shot." I've been sort of chipping away at getting a limo of sorts done, and I simply dropped in a stock seated figure, and picked one of the windows of the County Courts (County Records) building to point through. Yes, I have already posted some images, months ago, that I made looking through two other windows of that building—the one that was in the jurisdiction of Earl/Earle Cabell, brother of the very Charles P. Cabell that JFK had kicked out of the CIA. Not that this has any relevance, mind you—let me hasten to add. I'm just sayin'. And yes, I believe that's the building that the head shot came from and that it blew out the right front part of Kennedy's skull on exit. Exactly as would be expected. When or if I ever will have the time or opportunity to add spectators—which will have to be accurately sized to scale—I simply don't know. And it doesn't look promising for anytime in the near future. This is one reason that I haven't abandoned trying to work out a way to get this 3D model broadly available, so others can populate it and play with it to their heart's content. I'm not trying to make it proprietary. It's just that the size of the file makes it costly to make available until I can figure out some way to do it. And I am working on it in my spare time. (That's usually about from 3:15 to 3:21 a.m.) Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) I am very receptive to the names which have been put forward, as shooter, spotter et al, but I would like to mention that there are very few individuals, who have 'gone on record. as being a quote shooter unquote.' Everyone on the Forum is familiar with James Files, but in the Shaw Trial circa 1967-69, Emilio Santana is reported to have admitted that he was a shooter, to either Garrison, Alcock or Dymond. Is there something which precludes his claims being credible? [besides admitting to being a shooter, in an era that would make that a questionable decision for someone who valued their life] Also, does anyone know the real identities of Teddy Duvernier and Jack Crawley? Edited November 25, 2006 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Hi Ashton, That's an interesting POV, I'm aware that you posted a thread with pictures previously (red, blue yellow court or some such.) To my point, have you factored in, during any of your CGI reconstructions, the crowds, heights, lines of sight in relation to this shooting position? Many Thanks Gary Hi, Gary. The short answer is "no," at least to the crowds, and including the positions of the motorcycle policemen at the time of the head shot. It's just far, far more than I can do. I had to play hooky from deadlines this morning for a little while just to set up that "shot." I've been sort of chipping away at getting a limo of sorts done, and I simply dropped in a stock seated figure, and picked one of the windows of the County Courts (County Records) building to point through. Yes, I have already posted some images, months ago, that I made looking through two other windows of that building—the one that was in the jurisdiction of Earl/Earle Cabell, brother of the very Charles P. Cabell that JFK had kicked out of the CIA. Not that this has any relevance, mind you—let me hasten to add. I'm just sayin'. And yes, I believe that's the building that the head shot came from and that it blew out the right front part of Kennedy's skull on exit. Exactly as would be expected. When or if I ever will have the time or opportunity to add spectators—which will have to be accurately sized to scale—I simply don't know. And it doesn't look promising for anytime in the near future. This is one reason that I haven't abandoned trying to work out a way to get this 3D model broadly available, so others can populate it and play with it to their heart's content. I'm not trying to make it proprietary. It's just that the size of the file makes it costly to make available until I can figure out some way to do it. And I am working on it in my spare time. (That's usually about from 3:15 to 3:21 a.m.) Ashton ________________________________________ Mrs. Kennedy's position should be taken into consideration regarding this POV and potential line of fire... Keep up the good work! --Thomas ________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope. Hello Myra - this doesn't preclude his use as leverage to be used against Johnson if required. The Loy Factor account [Men on the Sixth [maybe Fifth] Floor] is quite compelling - plus the print studies. Use of Mac would be very intelligent if one wanted to ensure LBJ played ball. No time at the present, however, his description [horn rims, etc.] sounds too similar to what quite a few witnesses reported to simply discard. If we can credit Factor - then Wallace is working with a cell - which includes a cuban woman, and a possible Oswald double. The Sam Rayburn funeral is also an interesting connection. Plus - in hindsight, it doesn't really matter if he hit anything. - lee Well, I've wondered about the Johnson/Hoover talk of Nov 29: "Lyndon B. Johnson: How many shots were fired? Three? J. Edgar Hoover: Three. Lyndon B. Johnson: Any of them fired at me? J. Edgar Hoover: No. Lyndon B. Johnson: All three at the President? ... Lyndon B. Johnson: Were they aiming at the President?" http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAjohnsonLB.htm It could possibly have indicated his genuine concern over his own nasty ol' hyde. But it's a stretch for me to think of LBJ as anything other than one of the leaders in the murder, what with the fact that he was the one in dire danger if President Kennedy lived. He was being dropped from the ticket and was about to get nailed in the Bobby Baker investigation. And it's even more of a stretch to think that the assassin LBJ used would then be used against him. Granted these types do tend to free lance. I'm having trouble understanding some of what you're saying. Are you saying some witnesses of the men on the 5th and 6th floors of the TSBD described a man that could be Wallace? I don't know anything about the Sam Rayburn funeral. Care to summarize the interesting connection you refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I am very receptive to the names which have been put forward, as shooter, spotter et al, but I would like to mention that there are very few individuals, who have 'gone on record. as being a quote shooter unquote.' Everyone on the Forum is familiar with James Files, but in the Shaw Trial circa 1967-69, Emilio Santana is reported to have admitted that he was a shooter, to either Garrison, Alcock or Dymond. Is there something which precludes his claims being credible? [besides admitting to being a shooter, in an era that would make that a questionable decision for someone who valued their life] (Robert Howard) Robert, Santana was recruited by JM/WAVE in December of 1960 as a guide for an infiltration team. He was paid a monthly salary until October of 1963. In February of 1963 he was granted Operational Approval as a Cuban asset in Cuba by Task Force W under Project JMATE. This ended in May of 1963. There is no doubt that he was amongst the action but I have never found anything that would suggest he was an accomplished shooter. Photo at this link. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/1AASantana.htm James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Thanks James, I noticed Larry Hancock, in his updated SWHT, apparently felt that Emilio was worth discussing, oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Loughran Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Hi Ashton, That's an interesting POV, I'm aware that you posted a thread with pictures previously (red, blue yellow court or some such.) To my point, have you factored in, during any of your CGI reconstructions, the crowds, heights, lines of sight in relation to this shooting position? Many Thanks Gary Hi, Gary. The short answer is "no," at least to the crowds, and including the positions of the motorcycle policemen at the time of the head shot. It's just far, far more than I can do. I had to play hooky from deadlines this morning for a little while just to set up that "shot." I've been sort of chipping away at getting a limo of sorts done, and I simply dropped in a stock seated figure, and picked one of the windows of the County Courts (County Records) building to point through. Yes, I have already posted some images, months ago, that I made looking through two other windows of that building—the one that was in the jurisdiction of Earl/Earle Cabell, brother of the very Charles P. Cabell that JFK had kicked out of the CIA. Not that this has any relevance, mind you—let me hasten to add. I'm just sayin'. And yes, I believe that's the building that the head shot came from and that it blew out the right front part of Kennedy's skull on exit. Exactly as would be expected. When or if I ever will have the time or opportunity to add spectators—which will have to be accurately sized to scale—I simply don't know. And it doesn't look promising for anytime in the near future. This is one reason that I haven't abandoned trying to work out a way to get this 3D model broadly available, so others can populate it and play with it to their heart's content. I'm not trying to make it proprietary. It's just that the size of the file makes it costly to make available until I can figure out some way to do it. And I am working on it in my spare time. (That's usually about from 3:15 to 3:21 a.m.) Ashton Hi Ashton, Thanks for your reply and work to date on the 3D model. I hope you get an extra few minutes between works and sleep to complete it. I also like the line of sight from here as opposed to both the Dal Tex/TBSD (I also think 1 of these sites was utilised). Keep up the good work Gary Edited November 25, 2006 by Gary Loughran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Thanks James, I noticed Larry Hancock, in his updated SWHT, apparently felt that Emilio was worth discussing, oh well. Hi Robert, I think Santana is definitely worth discussing. I have not been able to connect him solidly enough to make an appearance in Dealey Plaza though. That of course doesn't mean he wasn't there. We also have the possibility that he was involved with Acarcha Smith and the Rose Cheramie episode so suspicion absolutely falls on him. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesca Akhtar Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 I'm having trouble understanding some of what you're saying. Are you saying some witnesses of the men on the 5th and 6th floors of the TSBD described a man that could be Wallace? I don't know anything about the Sam Rayburn funeral. Care to summarize the interesting connection you refer to? Yes, people have described seeing a 'dark complected' man who could be possibly latin looking, who was heavyset and wore horn rimmed glasses, all of which fit Wallace. But more than that I do believe it was his fingerprint found on the sixth floor. Before reading Loy Factor's story it sounded quite unbelievable from the bits I'd heard but actually I did change my mind once I read it. He knew certain things about the TSBD for example which weren't widely known back then, like the layout of the building and the fact it had a loading dock on the north side, which wa slater removed .Plus he lived in a hut in the woods in a remote place so it's not like he'd have access to a lot of information from other sources. He was also described as being a bit 'simple', probably today he'd be thought of as having 'learning difficulties'. Factor says he was recruited by Wallace at the funeral of Sam Rayburn in 1961. Factor says he took his family along for a 'day out' because JFK was attending and he thought they might be able to catch a glimpse of him there. There is footage that purports to show Wallace in the crowd - a still can be seen on the 'The Men on the Sixth Floor' website: http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/mac-rayb.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope. Hello Myra - this doesn't preclude his use as leverage to be used against Johnson if required. The Loy Factor account [Men on the Sixth [maybe Fifth] Floor] is quite compelling - plus the print studies. Use of Mac would be very intelligent if one wanted to ensure LBJ played ball. No time at the present, however, his description [horn rims, etc.] sounds too similar to what quite a few witnesses reported to simply discard. If we can credit Factor - then Wallace is working with a cell - which includes a cuban woman, and a possible Oswald double. The Sam Rayburn funeral is also an interesting connection. Plus - in hindsight, it doesn't really matter if he hit anything. - lee Well, I've wondered about the Johnson/Hoover talk of Nov 29: "Lyndon B. Johnson: How many shots were fired? Three? J. Edgar Hoover: Three. Lyndon B. Johnson: Any of them fired at me? J. Edgar Hoover: No. Lyndon B. Johnson: All three at the President? ... Lyndon B. Johnson: Were they aiming at the President?" http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAjohnsonLB.htm It could possibly have indicated his genuine concern over his own nasty ol' hyde. But it's a stretch for me to think of LBJ as anything other than one of the leaders in the murder, what with the fact that he was the one in dire danger if President Kennedy lived. He was being dropped from the ticket and was about to get nailed in the Bobby Baker investigation. And it's even more of a stretch to think that the assassin LBJ used would then be used against him. Granted these types do tend to free lance. I'm having trouble understanding some of what you're saying. Are you saying some witnesses of the men on the 5th and 6th floors of the TSBD described a man that could be Wallace? I don't know anything about the Sam Rayburn funeral. Care to summarize the interesting connection you refer to? Francesca did a nice job of filling in some details - thanks Francesca! Let's look at it this way - LBJ doesn't need to know any intricate details about anything. He may have been 'aware' - he may have even had a conversation with someone - but he's probably not accustomed to doing any nitty gritty work - more of a point the finger and get it done type. Which would make sense afterwards when we consider his documented paranoia, and reports of his serious concern over a 'conspiracy' - since it would almost appear that he was ignorant as to the details. So I am not implying that he would have commissioned his 'man' to be present. As to his being dropped from the ticket - still a matter of debate. On Baker, he would probably still be okay - depends on how he plays his cards, and how his other card players do as well. From the plotters perspective, it seems wise to get some dirt on LBJ in order to ensure you've got some skin in the game to work with. Makes a great deal of good logical sense. As to Mac being some sort of freelance - reused for other assignments - well, sounds more like he was a special type. A 'family thug.' But I have never really studied him in great detail - I only like the game plan. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Mac Wallace??? Wasn't he kind of a... xxxx up? He bungled the job on Henry Marshall horribly. Tried to set it up as a carbon monixide suicide but left a gash in Marshall's head, turned off the truck after the "suicide" and shot the victim 5 times with a bolt action rifle. He might have killed a lot of people for Johnson in Texas but I don't think he'd be trusted with anything of national scope. Hello Myra - this doesn't preclude his use as leverage to be used against Johnson if required. The Loy Factor account [Men on the Sixth [maybe Fifth] Floor] is quite compelling - plus the print studies. Use of Mac would be very intelligent if one wanted to ensure LBJ played ball. No time at the present, however, his description [horn rims, etc.] sounds too similar to what quite a few witnesses reported to simply discard. If we can credit Factor - then Wallace is working with a cell - which includes a cuban woman, and a possible Oswald double. The Sam Rayburn funeral is also an interesting connection. Plus - in hindsight, it doesn't really matter if he hit anything. - lee Well, I've wondered about the Johnson/Hoover talk of Nov 29: "Lyndon B. Johnson: How many shots were fired? Three? J. Edgar Hoover: Three. Lyndon B. Johnson: Any of them fired at me? J. Edgar Hoover: No. Lyndon B. Johnson: All three at the President? ... Lyndon B. Johnson: Were they aiming at the President?" http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAjohnsonLB.htm It could possibly have indicated his genuine concern over his own nasty ol' hyde. But it's a stretch for me to think of LBJ as anything other than one of the leaders in the murder, what with the fact that he was the one in dire danger if President Kennedy lived. He was being dropped from the ticket and was about to get nailed in the Bobby Baker investigation. And it's even more of a stretch to think that the assassin LBJ used would then be used against him. Granted these types do tend to free lance. I'm having trouble understanding some of what you're saying. Are you saying some witnesses of the men on the 5th and 6th floors of the TSBD described a man that could be Wallace? I don't know anything about the Sam Rayburn funeral. Care to summarize the interesting connection you refer to? Francesca did a nice job of filling in some details - thanks Francesca! Let's look at it this way - LBJ doesn't need to know any intricate details about anything. He may have been 'aware' - he may have even had a conversation with someone - but he's probably not accustomed to doing any nitty gritty work - more of a point the finger and get it done type. Which would make sense afterwards when we consider his documented paranoia, and reports of his serious concern over a 'conspiracy' - since it would almost appear that he was ignorant as to the details. So I am not implying that he would have commissioned his 'man' to be present. As to his being dropped from the ticket - still a matter of debate. On Baker, he would probably still be okay - depends on how he plays his cards, and how his other card players do as well. From the plotters perspective, it seems wise to get some dirt on LBJ in order to ensure you've got some skin in the game to work with. Makes a great deal of good logical sense. As to Mac being some sort of freelance - reused for other assignments - well, sounds more like he was a special type. A 'family thug.' But I have never really studied him in great detail - I only like the game plan. - lee Ah thank you Francesca, Lee. Ok, all clear. I'd assumed that the DCM in the TSBD was Cuban. Maybe not. John included a really intriguing scenario of James' on his site: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwallaceM.htm "(16) James Richards, JFK Assassination Forum (25th June, 2004) LBJ cronies most likely played a part in the cover-up. I hold the belief that the assassination itself and the cover-up were two different things. I also believe what the plotters were hoping to get out of the assassination did not come to fruition. If Wallace was present on the 6th floor of the TSBD, then he was most likely recruited as part of an operating cell that needed to be managed just like all the others. He would not have been included for his ability as a hitman as at best his past exploits in that area were sloppy to say the least. I'm sure Wallace was there to tie Johnson into events if Johnson decided to turn on the plotters themselves. If Johnson was going to take the top job as a result of Kennedy's demise then I'm sure he needed to bring something to the table, even inadvertently. I do not believe Wallace fired a shot that day." (He mentions the very thing that threw me, the fact that Wallace was quite inept.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard J. Smith Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 I was wondering what other people thought regarding who were the shooters, and where they were located. Ashton Ashton, How does a head shot fired from behind in the County Courts building relate to the large wound of exit in the right rear of the head? RJS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 (edited) (He mentions the very thing that threw me, the fact that Wallace was quite inept.) (Myra Bronstein) Hi Myra, Wallace was an interesting character with some very curious connections. This image below shows a young Malcolm Wallace and Molly O'Daniel. Molly was the daughter of Texas Governer W. Lee O'Daniel who was seriously opposed to Homer Rainey, a man Wallace supported. John has some terrific information on O'Daniel in his Spartacus biography. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKodaniel.htm FWIW. James Edited November 26, 2006 by James Richards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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