Who were the shooters?

[Cliff Varnell]

By the way, merely as an ancillary to the above, I've postulated that the infamous puff of smoke from the picket fence area was an effect created specifically to divert attention directly away from the angle of fire described above, and to send people running precisely in the opposite direction—where nothing and nobody would be found to be.

Ashton, I dig the outside-the-box thinking but this one has a lot of problems.

It's one thing to think that everybody in the Plaza MIGHT run toward a puff

of smoke and totally ignore the direction of the sound of gun fire, but it

is another thing to BET YOUR LIFE on such a nebulous occurrence.

IOW, if you think it a lock that everybody would run to a puff of smoke,

I'd be happy to play poker with you anytime.

Also, you're assuming that the plotters were keen to mask evidence

of a conspiracy. I contend they WANTED the assassination to look

like a conspiracy -- a Castro conspiracy.

It was only when the patsy survived to be captured alive that it became

necessary to mask, distort, and deep-six the evidence of conspiracy.

And thirdly -- there WERE people behind the fence. A guy flashing false

SS credentials, fresh foot-prints in the mud, a "commotion" behind the

fence according to Lee Bowers.

Ashton, your essential point may be correct -- that the head shot did

not come from the knoll. But the head wound evidence is a black hole

out of which no light can escape.

[John Dolva]

(image)

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, I dig the outside-the-box thinking but this one has a lot of problems.

Oh. Well, then, Cliff, why don't y'all trot back over to the TSBD and all the other places that have been kicked to death for over thirty years that don't "have a lot of problems."

Me, I think I'm just going to continue to loiter around the County Courts building for a while.

It's one thing to think that everybody in the Plaza MIGHT run toward a puff of smoke and totally ignore the direction of the sound of gun fire, but it is another thing to BET YOUR LIFE on such a nebulous occurrence.

Well, now, that's an interesting way to put it. Didn't know I was betting my life on it. Very kind of you to apprise me of the fact here in front of God and everybody.

And I think I'll just go on standing right where I am anyway. I'm kind of enjoying the view and counting the passersby who keep telling me I should move along.

IOW, if you think it a lock that everybody would run to a puff of smoke, I'd be happy to play poker with you anytime.

Read 'em and weep, pal:

Ashton Gray

Edited November 28, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Myra Bronstein]

(image)

Nice arial view John.

I don't know if this was posted before, didn't see it, but in a triangulation shooting I'd think they would avoid placing shooters opposite each other. If they did they could accidently nail a "colleague" (I wish). So I assume that excludes almost 180 degrees from shooter placement. And since we know there were shooters at Dal Tex and the knoll, that seems like it'd exclude shooters on the South knoll and the County Records Bldg.

Not that I'm an expert on this subject (understatement).

[John Dolva]

Yes, it's a good one Myra. I'm sure there are better copies showing a wider view. It's one of the only ones that shows the buildings as they were then. Most (all) of the shoots are downwards and so none, even if on opposite sides, are really in line. Also I left out a lot there, like the suggested 3'rd shot, and so on. It's just some of the possibilities.

[Ashton Gray]

And since we know there were shooters at Dal Tex and the knoll...

Excuse me? "We" who "knows" that? Did I not get the memo?

Ashton

[Guest John Gillespie]

The CIA had been infiltrated by KGB officers.

Well, ayup. And vice-versa. Since the two agencies worked for the same international commercial interests, it wasn't terribly difficult to exchange personnel and information.

Ashton Gray

_____________________________

"The CIA had been infiltrated by KGB officers."

('I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!').

Aye-yup,

Got to tell ya, Mistah Gray, them catfish yaw swimmin' with...they'll getcha all stunk up.

Ayeah...

Ezekiel

Edited November 28, 2006 by John Gillespie

[Myra Bronstein]

And since we know there were shooters at Dal Tex and the knoll...

Excuse me? "We" who "knows" that? Did I not get the memo?

Ashton

That's correct Ashton. I distributed a memo to everyone but you because you refuse to remove your hat in the presence of a lady. So there.

Ok, I drew the Dal-Tex conclusion after looking at this page:

http://www.copweb.be/copweb%20jfk%20gazette-Mag01.htm#

Someone with your advanced language skills may notice that it's in French. However, the photos probably speak for themselves. (Then I go on to speak for them.) They show a shooter aiming a rifle (at least that's what I see) in the window of Dal-Tex, right by the fire escape that a man is sitting on. The shooter has a second man (spotter?) with him. (I also attached photos.)

The only photo that's retouched is the super closed up that's in color. That photo is showing their theory, but the others are naked eye kinda stuff with some magnification.

The knoll shooter I doubt you need convincing on. The evidence is overwhelming, e.g., the stampede up the hill afterwards (in your picture).

[Guest John Gillespie]

duplication

Edited November 28, 2006 by John Gillespie

[Michael Hogan]

Someone with your advanced language skills may notice that it's in French.

Voila! http://www.copweb.be/index.html

[Ashton Gray]

And since we know there were shooters at Dal Tex and the knoll...

Excuse me? "We" who "knows" that? Did I not get the memo?

Ashton

That's correct Ashton. I distributed a memo to everyone but you because you refuse to remove your hat in the presence of a lady. So there.

But, but, but... But, Myra. It's only because I'm having a bad hair day. Surely that is something a lady can forgive.

Ok, I drew the Dal-Tex conclusion after looking at this page:

http://www.copweb.be/copweb%20jfk%20gazette-Mag01.htm#

Someone with your advanced language skills may notice that it's in French.

Je suis environ aussi français que la statue de la liberté.

(That's a joke, courtesy of Babelfish.)

However, the photos probably speak for themselves. (Then I go on to speak for them.) They show a shooter aiming a rifle (at least that's what I see) in the window of Dal-Tex, right by the fire escape that a man is sitting on. The shooter has a second man (spotter?) with him. (I also attached photos.)

Hm! Imagine that. And here I thought it was a guy lighting a joint, and another guy with his hand down... Well, never mind.

In a more serious vein, and with all due respect, it seems clear to me that anyone shooting from that lower DalTex window would have had to shoot through at least two, and perhaps three or even four other cars to hit Kennedy. I'm enclosing another image from the 3D model looking back up toward the DalTex building. Although the other vehicles are not in this view, I feel certain you are imaginative enough to put them there in your mind's eye. Then tell me what you think:

As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more red herring. And, really, not even a very clever one.

The knoll shooter I doubt you need convincing on. The evidence is overwhelming, e.g., the stampede up the hill afterwards (in your picture).

Why, Myra, I'm shocked. Apparently you've abandoned reading my posts altogether, since the whole issue of the stampede up the knoll came about because I posited that the puff of smoke, and the ordering of all the personnel from the County Courts building into the same area behind the fence, was specifically and intentionally diversionary, to focus all attention exactly where the shooters warn't (as they say in my neck of the woods).

And this might surprise you: no shooters were found all up in there where the crowd and police surged.

Ashton

[Myra Bronstein]

Someone with your advanced language skills may notice that it's in French.

Voila! http://www.copweb.be/index.html

Michael! Thank you. For the translation and for taking off your hat in the presence of a lady. There are those that could learn from your fine example.

[Cliff Varnell]

Ashton, I dig the outside-the-box thinking but this one has a lot of problems.

[AG]: Oh. Well, then, Cliff, why don't y'all trot back over to the TSBD and all the other places that have been kicked to death for over thirty years that don't "have a lot of problems."

[CV]: As I indicated in my post, I don't discount shots from the County Courts Building.

[AG]: Me, I think I'm just going to continue to loiter around the County Courts building for a while.

[CV]: By all means! I'm an Ashton Gray fan. I just calls 'em like I sees 'em, & I don't care

if anyone thinks I'm stepping on their toes.

It's one thing to think that everybody in the Plaza MIGHT run toward a puff of smoke and totally ignore the direction of the sound of gun fire, but it is another thing to BET YOUR LIFE on such a nebulous occurrence.

[AG]: Well, now, that's an interesting way to put it. Didn't know I was betting my life on it. Very kind of you to apprise me of the fact here in front of God and everybody.

[CV]: There's been a mis-understanding here, for which I take full responsibility.

I should have stated: "...but it is another thing for the conspirators to BET THEIR LIVES

on such a nebulous occurence."

I was not accusing you of murdering JFK, no...

[AG]: And I think I'll just go on standing right where I am anyway. I'm kind of enjoying the view and counting the passersby who keep telling me I should move along.

[CV]: This passerby wants you to stay put, but I'm only pointing out

a flaw in your argument -- who in their right mind is going to risk the

gallows on the ASSUMPTION that all those people are going to bite on

this "puff of smoke" mis-direction you posit?

IOW, if you think it a lock that everybody would run to a puff of smoke, I'd be happy to play poker with you anytime.

Read 'em and weep, pal:

Ashton Gray

Ashton, all you're showing here is the five card board!

We ALL know they charged the knoll. That's not the issue.

You haven't shown your hand down, yet.

Your hole cards: the number of people who testified to seeing the puff

of smoke on the knoll.

My hole cards: the number of people who heard gun shots from the knoll.

I'm all in, Ashton. Sure you wanna call?

Edited November 28, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Myra Bronstein]

But, but, but... But, Myra. It's only because I'm having a bad hair day. Surely that is something a lady can forgive.

Not really; I have bad hair years.

Je suis environ aussi français que la statue de la liberté.

(That's a joke, courtesy of Babelfish.)

Je ne peux pas vous entendre avec ce chapeau dessus.

In a more serious vein, and with all due respect, it seems clear to me that anyone shooting from that lower DalTex window would have had to shoot through at least two, and perhaps three or even four other cars to hit Kennedy. I'm enclosing another image from the 3D model looking back up toward the DalTex building. Although the other vehicles are not in this view, I feel certain you are imaginative enough to put them there in your mind's eye. Then tell me what you think:

Hm, you may have a point. The two figures are on a low floor. So we'd (we ) need a side-view diagram with everyone in position for the shots from behind to see if the angles are possible. Hey! This is your area right? Can you provide evidence for my premise?

As far as I'm concerned, it's just one more red herring. And, really, not even a very clever one.

Huh? Anyways, do you see the two figures in the window? Let's establish that much.

The knoll shooter I doubt you need convincing on. The evidence is overwhelming, e.g., the stampede up the hill afterwards (in your picture).

Why, Myra, I'm shocked. Apparently you've abandoned reading my posts altogether, since the whole issue of the stampede up the knoll came about because I posited that the puff of smoke, and the ordering of all the personnel from the County Courts building into the same area behind the fence, was specifically and intentionally diversionary, to focus all attention exactly where the shooters warn't (as they say in my neck of the woods).

...Oops. Busted. Ok ok so I kinda scanned. My bad.

And this might surprise you: no shooters were found all up in there where the crowd and police surged.

What? So the shooters didn't loll around waiting for the welcome wagon to arrive? As you'd say, "shocking." And downright rude. I mean that's just not good manners.

Did you notice that every vehicle including the press bus had already passed? That indicates that some seconds went by before people started charging the knoll. And I suspect that the shooters had escape routes. In addition, early knoll chargers were greeted with the bogus SS men who showed weapons and told people to turn back. Not surprisingly, they did. So the knoll shooter(s) had plenty of time to bolt.

http://www.jfklancer.com/ManWho.html

"THE MAN WHO WASN'T THERE, WAS THERE

PHONY SECRET SERVICE AGENTS IN DEALEY PLAZA

Michael T. Griffith

1996@All Rights Reserved

Some witnesses said they encountered Secret Service agent in Dealey Plaza moments after the assassination. These reports continue to be the subject of much controversy. Why? Because it has long been established that no genuine Secret Service agents on the ground in Dealey Plaza until later that afternoon. This fact suggests phony Secret Service agents were in Dealey Plaza, and that they were there to help the assassins escape. David Scheim(1) summarizes:

"After the shooting, Dallas Police officer Joe M. Smith encountered another suspicious man in the lot behind the picket fence [on the grassy knoll]. Smith told the Warren Commission that when he drew his pistol and approached the man, the man "showed [smith] that he was a Secret Service agent."

Another witness also reported encountering a man who displayed a badge and identified himself as a Secret Service agent. But according to Secret Service Chief James Rowley and agents at the scene, all Secret Service personnel stayed with the motorcade, as required by regulations, and none was stationed in the railroad parking lot [behind the grassy knoll]. It thus appeared that someone was carrying fraudulent Secret Service credentials--of no perceptible use to anyone but an escaping assassin. (Scheim 30-31)

Not only were there no Secret Service (SS) agents stationed on or behind the grassy knoll, but there were no FBI or other federal agents stationed there either. Officer Smith was not the only witness who encountered an apparently phony federal agent. Malcolm Summers ran to the knoll moments after the shooting. He related the following in the 1988 documentary Who Murdered JFK?:

"I ran across the--Elm Street to right there toward the knoll. It was there [pointing to a spot on the knoll]--and we were stopped by a man in a suit and he had an overcoat--over his arm and he, he, I saw a gun under that overcoat. And he--his comment was, "Don't you all come up here any further, you could get shot, or killed ," one of those words. A few months later, they told me they didn't have an FBI man in that area. If they didn't have anybody, it's a good question who it was. " (Anderson 14)"

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, there are also the windows (red) in the setback connecting structure between the records and courts building. Possibly that is a unique formation that can cause sound to bounce and ripple like 'fire crackers'.

John, I put the windows in as accurately as I could determine from available photos that show the windows in that connecting structure (which photos are pretty rare as far as I can find). Here is the view from the lower one, fairly wide field of view (haven't "scoped" it):

And the view from the upper one:

I found and blew up a section of a photo showing the upper window. The photo is fairly contemporary, not around the time of the assassination, but I found it of interest that it appears that the lower part of that window is opened:

Ashton