A Very Long Road

[William Plumlee]

JAN 10 08 NEW INFORMATION ON:

CAPT. EDWARD G. SEIWELL age 91 Dallas, Texas Previous CO Fourth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field 1952-56 Interviewed, certified, notorized, whitnessed, and transcribed, on file JCS (J2) Pentagon as of 2005; auth. release date of Jan.08; also copies of interview of Capt Seiwell located at Camp Maybre, Texas 49th Armord Div. HDQ under file number NG 25926077 and CIA 80Txxxxxx classified. One copy of sealed Court record dated 1952 on Subject WRP # ??? in file. (note Plumlee was 14 years of age and in the Texas National Guard. At age 15 he was transfered to the regular army at Ft Bliss Texas. (documented)

Also on file DPD INTEL Field Report from 49th Armord Div. dated Feb. 1964.... signed by Capt Gilbert Cook concerning the location of "Dallas Safe Houses" in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas.......". Additional information on Capt. Seiwell found at: OFFICE of ADJUTANT GENERAL STATE of TEXAS Referenced in the files of the 156th Tank BN. Company C

note: It took a dead researcher three and one half years to get into those DPD files and the Texas NG and Army reserve files........ or I should say three years plus....... and three bullits.

note; some of the records are sealed even today. FOIA filed Sept 07 as well as motion to declassifie the 1952 as well as the 1964 military files on subject .

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1275

PAST POST

William PlumleeNov 22 2004, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 22 2004, 08:35 PM)

"....In the course of his reply, Kelley said, “The Dallas Police had some information on him and the State Department had some information in connection with his trips to Russia. The military was supplying information to our headquarters and it was being provided to me at Dallas.....” .

Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting post from the record.

(Plumlee's reply)

Now we need to look at the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field. There was at one time a report from Company C 156th Tank Bat. which was relayed to 112th Intel at Fort Sam Houston which had Oswald living on Beckley for a very short time. They had received other earlier information from a 49th Armored Div. Texas National Guard, a Capt Cook and that information was sent to an ONI unit at Hensley Field Grand Prairie, Texas, requesting information about the status of LHO. This request was made before LHO had lived on Beckley and before he went to N.O. LHO name was on record with ONI before Beckley.

Congressman Tom Downing had received the documents from an 'unknown officer" (Seiwell) of the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas. In time this information and documentation was given to a Texas State Representative, in Austin Texas. Shortly after this information was received by Congressman Downing. The hard copy was lost or misplaced shortly before the HSCA was chaired.

The WC did not obtain this information.

Professional researchers need to research the Forth Army Reserve and do a cross check on the names found in the Fourth and the Fifth Army and cross check the ONI Navy field office at Hensley or Bauchman Lake near Dallas Love Field. Something, I think will pop up which could prove interesting. (end)

John SimkinNov 25 2004, 12:44 AM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 22 2004, 07:35 PM)

Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fascinating piece of research. I cannot see how anyone could disagree with your concluding paragraph.

The work is so well-done that I have nothing to add to it. However, I did come across something recently that might be relevant to this issue.

In 1963 J. Lee Rankin appointed Norman Redlich as his special assistant on the Warren Commission in the investigation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Throughout the investigation, Gerald Ford provided J. Edgar Hoover with information about the activities of staff members of the commission. Ford became concerned about Redlich and contacted Hoover about him. Hoover ordered that Redlich's past should be investigated. He discovered that Redlich was on the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee, an organization considered by Hoover to have been set-up to "defend the cases of Communist lawbreakers". Redlich had also been critical of the activities of the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

This information was leaked to a group of right-wing politicians. On 5th May, 1964, Ralph F. Beermann, a Republican Party congressman, made a speech claiming that Redlich was associated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Beermann called for Redlich to be removed as a staff member of the Warren Commission. He was supported by Karl E. Mundt who said: "We want a report from the Commission which Americans will accept as factual, which will put to rest all the ugly rumors now in circulation and which the world will believe. Who but the most gullible would believe any report if it were written in part by persons with Communist connections?"

Gerald Ford joined in the attack and at one closed-door session of the Warren Commission he called for Redlich to be dismissed. However, he retained his job although he did change his mind about the issue that persuaded Ford to report him to Hoover.

The reason I am raising this issue is that according to Seth Kantor (Who Was Jack Ruby?), Ford had reported Redlich to Hoover because of a theory he had about Ruby’s possible relationship with Oswald. Here is an interesting passage from Kantor’s book that explains how Redlich changed his mind about this issue:

The Belin Theory was that the city bus transfer in Oswald's shirt pocket might well have been his basic "passport" to Mexico. Oswald had been reported to have been in Mexico two months earlier and having gotten there by bus. Belin also was aware of the Warren Commission testimony given by Nelson Delgado, who had served in the Marine Corps with Oswald. Delgado had recalled Oswald once telling him that the best way to escape from authorities in the United States to Russia was by way of Mexico, where a plane could be caught to Havana, and then another plane to Moscow.

The Belin Theory was innovative and extremely logical but suffered a fatal axing within the Warren Commission when Belin figured out that Oswald probably was in the act of escaping to Mexico when encountered by officer Tippit on Tenth Street. That injected a foreign connection into the escape which blew the Warren Commission's mind. Mexico. Cuba. Russia. Belin had practically invented World War III.

It was Norman Redlich who put the axe to the Belin Theory. Redlich had a great deal of control over what would appear in the Warren Report. Redlich, remember, had survived the communist witch-hunt aimed at him on Capitol Hill three months earlier when the granting of his security clearance had been threatened. And now Redlich wanted to keep from stirring up any more problems for Earl Warren, so he argued that Belin had come up with nothing more than supposition, which had no place in the Warren Report. Belin argued in return that the Commission had a public obligation to disclose the existence of Oswald's possible escape plan, even if it were removed from chapter six of the Report and relegated to the 31-page section in the appendix of the Report, entitled "Speculations and Rumors." But Redlich instead saw to it that the Warren Report made no attempt to explain why Oswald, the fast-moving young man on the lam, appeared to be heading directly toward Jack Ruby's apartment with a gun. Instead, the Warren Report simply said, "There is no evidence that Oswald knew where Ruby lived."

Norman Redlich is still alive. I have emailed him and asked him to get involved in this seminar. So far he has not responded. I have his phone number if you are interested in following this matter up.

Richard J. SmithNov 26 2004, 05:50 AM

Steve,

OUTSTANDING piece of work, but then again, I have come to expect nothing less from you. Very well done.

Richard

Steve ThomasNov 26 2004, 08:00 AM

Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence.

In his HSCA unpublished testimony, Col. Jones said that he had been contacted early in the afternoon informing him that a person named A. J. Hidell had come to the attention of the authorities. (He thought that it was because Hidell had been arrested, but couldn't be sure)

(I thought that part of his testimony was very interesting.)

Jones said that he checked his card index and checked the name A. J. Hidell...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0020a.htm

That all sound kind of innoucuous, but I've been doing a little reading about the 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Same Houston. Here is an exceprt from a book by Morton Halperin, et.al. entitled, The Lawless State:

"In July 1969, the Department of Defense opened a new war room in the basement of the Pentagon. Staffed by some 180 people and packed with all the latest equipment -data processing machines, closed circuit television, teletype networks, elaborate situation maps-the new operation was a marvel of military technology. The most striking aspect, however, was not the imposing technology, but the purposes that were being served. This was not a regular command center but a very special operation-a "domestic war room," the headquarters of the Directorate for Civil Disturbance Planning and Operations. It was the coordinating center for the Pentagon's domestic war operations.

The office, now known as the Division of Military Services, played a central role in the military's widespread intelligence operations against the American people, a sweeping campaign of civilian surveillance which ultimately affected more than 100,000 citizens. In the fall of 1968, there were more Army Counter-lntelligence Analysis Branch personnel assigned to monitor domestic citizen protests than were assigned to any other counter-intelligence operation in the world, including Southeast Asia and the Vietnam War.' In the later part of the 1960s and early 1970s, 1,500 army plainclothes intelligence agents with the services of more than 350 separate offices and record centers watched and infiltrated thousands of legitimate civilian political organizations. Data banks with as many as 100,000 entries each were maintained at intelligence headquarters at Fort Holabird, Maryland, and at Fourth Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston, Texas."

According to Jones' testimony, "From 1960, I attended and completed the advanced intelligence course at Fort Holabird, Maryland. He was then assigned to Nuremburg Germany. (Would he have worked or met with Edwin Walker?)

He came back from Germany and was assigned to Fort Sam Houston from June, 1963 to January 1, 1965. He was reassigned to Fort Holabird. He served there for 18 months and then back to the 112th for another seven months.

This guy certainly was at the center of domestic counterintelligence work.

Steve Thomas

William PlumleeNov 26 2004, 02:18 PM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 26 2004, 04:00 PM)

Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley ........

........In his HSCA unpublished testimony, Col. Jones said that he had been contacted early in the afternoon informing him that a person named A. J. Hidell had come to the attention of the authorities. (He thought that it was because Hidell had been arrested, but couldn't be sure)

(I thought that part of his testimony was very interesting.)

Jones said that he checked his card index and checked the name A. J. Hidell...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0020a.htm

That all sound kind of innoucuous, but I've been doing a little reading about the 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Same Houston. Here is an exceprt from a book by Morton Halperin, et.al. entitled, The Lawless State:

"In July 1969, the Department of Defense opened a new war room in the basement of the Pentagon. Staffed by some 180 people and packed with all the latest equipment -data processing machines, closed circuit television, teletype networks, elaborate situation maps-the new operation was a marvel of military technology. The most striking aspect, however, was not the imposing technology, but the purposes that were being served. This was not a regular command center but a very special operation-a "domestic war room," the headquarters of the Directorate for Civil Disturbance Planning and Operations. It was the coordinating center for the Pentagon's domestic war operations.

The office, now known as the Division of Military Services, played a central role in the military's widespread intelligence operations against the American people, a sweeping campaign of civilian surveillance which ultimately affected more than 100,000 citizens. In the fall of 1968, there were more Army Counter-lntelligence Analysis Branch personnel assigned to monitor domestic citizen protests than were assigned to any other counter-intelligence operation in the world, including Southeast Asia and the Vietnam War.' In the later part of the 1960s and early 1970s, 1,500 army plainclothes intelligence agents with the services of more than 350 separate offices and record centers watched and infiltrated thousands of legitimate civilian political organizations. Data banks with as many as 100,000 entries each were maintained at intelligence headquarters at Fort Holabird, Maryland, and at Fourth Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston, Texas."

According to Jones' testimony, "From 1960, I attended and completed the advanced intelligence course at Fort Holabird, Maryland. He was then assigned to Nuremburg Germany. (Would he have worked or met with Edwin Walker?)

He came back from Germany and was assigned to Fort Sam Houston from June, 1963 to January 1, 1965. He was reassigned to Fort Holabird. He served there for 18 months and then back to the 112th for another seven months.

This guy certainly was at the center of domestic counterintelligence work.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Plumlee's reply)

He also worked with Capt. Edward G Seiwell 4th Army Reserve who was assigned at Dallas Love Field before he too went to the Specialized Army Unit (SAU) at Ft Sam Houston and then later into the 112th.

Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner. This is a good post. There is a lead here if anyone cares to check it out. Why was an 'Abort Team' sent in? Who sent them?

For over nine years this 'Specialized Army Unit" (SAU) was burried within the Pentagon. It was a very small 'test unit' before it surfaced in 1969, but it had been operational before it became the DMS. Even the CIA did not know about it's early existence. It was solely a military matter. A left over from Ike's days.

President Kennedy found out about this secret unit and ask the CIA about it. They knew nothing. Yes the military was in Dallas that day and they were not in uniform. And other military intel units did not know of their existence, or where they were located..,or why. (end )

Steve ThomasNov 27 2004, 08:29 AM

Tosh

"...Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner. ..."

Who would you ask?

Steve Thomas

William PlumleeNov 27 2004, 11:00 AM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 27 2004, 04:29 PM)

Tosh

Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner.

Who would you ask?

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Plumlee's reply)

Steve:

An FOIA request worded very specific. The Texas Adj General Office at Camp Mabre, Austin Texas. Fifth Army archives in reference to the 4th Army Reserves located at Dallas Love Field, before the 4th it became part of the 5th Army. I think this would be at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Trace the Navy ONI when they were located at Bauchman Lake, Dallas Texas, or Naval Air Station, Grand Prairie, Texas.

I think digging deep into these lost or misplaced files would pay dividends. The normal routing through the FOIA and searching the NAAR or Military Personnel Records Center at St Louis MO. have long been purged and that is a waist of time.

In order to get to new evidence pertaining to the Kennedy matter, or 112th MI, you have to go to alternate sources which requires a lot of leg work and time. It was designed that way. The government does not destroy anything it just goes into a black hole somewhere. (end)

Shanet ClarkNov 27 2004, 03:19 PM

Great thread.

Not much to add, except that the point is clear that the MI guys knew too much and got caught covering up, a typical scenario.

As far as a further search, remember that the MK/Ultra operational files were destroyed by Helms but the program was exposed when the financial records were unearthed.

Shanet

Steve ThomasNov 29 2004, 07:42 AM

I have a slight correction to make:

Orginally, I wrote:

In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage:

Though the original message is dated as November 23rd, the time given is 0405 Z.

I believe this is Coordinated Zulu Time. The Centrl Time Zone is I believe, six hours behind GMT which would mean the time the original message was sent from Dallas would be about 11:00 PM on the 22nd.

Steve Thomas

William PlumleeNov 29 2004, 09:20 AM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 29 2004, 03:42 PM)

"... ....".

I find this extreamely interesting. GOOD WORK. This is what its all about. Sharing research... good or bad as to what some of us may think. Thanks for the leg work. There is more to do in this direction.

Steve ThomasNov 29 2004, 10:05 AM

Tosh,

I find this extreamely interesting.

Thank you.

Do you know anything about either of the two officers mentioned in that phone call?

Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston.

Steve Thomas

William PlumleeNov 29 2004, 10:17 AM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 29 2004, 06:05 PM)

Tosh,

I find this extreamely interesting.

Thank you.

Do you know anything about either of the two officers mentioned in that phone call?

Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Plumlee's reply)

No Steve. Nothing direct or factual only hear say and I am not sure about that source. There was a Capt. Saxton who worked with the 156 tank Bn CO C with a Captain Gilbert COOK and a Captain Black of the 49th Armored Div, Texas National Guard and the 4th Army Reserve Dallas Love Field. But I would not know if they were connected to any of this. For that matter I'm not really sure it was 'Saxton", could have been "Sampson" but I think it was, "Saxton". Its been awhile.

William PlumleeNov 29 2004, 11:38 AM

QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 29 2004, 03:42 PM)

I have a slight correction to make:

Orginally, I wrote:

In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage:

Though the original message is dated as November 23rd, the time given is 0405 Z.

I believe this is Coordinated Zulu Time. The Centrl Time Zone is I believe, six hours behind GMT which would mean the time the original message was sent from Dallas would be about 11:00 PM on the 22nd.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reference to Beckly Address and house behind: 'The Flight to Dallas' and 'Howdid the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley'.

Thank You for your respond. I t must be kept in mind that I first took Senate investigators to this place in 1978 and Jim Marrs and others from Oliver Stone's research team there in 1991. In 2002 I took Nigel Turner to this house behind Beckley and he took pictures.

Most all these people told me I was wrong about the house. They said that only a park was behind the Beckley address. I told them you missed the alley entrance to the place and took them there. After I had done this then everybody said they knew about this house behind Beckley and they were just testing me.

Do you know about the other place? This was a small place LHO and Marina rented down the street? It too, was a hard place to get into. Are you familiar with the doorway and how to get to this small apartment. And do you know the real address?. That too is an interesting story.

Perhaps Jim Marrs would like to come on this forum and tell how he found out about this place. I think it would prove interesting for the sake of truthful research. Thanks again for the post. I hope my story has cleared a few matters for you. There is more..., lots more... but its like eating a elephant... You do it with small bites ...". end

Steve ThomasNov 29 2004, 01:55 PM

Thanks for your help. Your suggestions have led me down research paths I hadn't explored before. I've been learning about CONUS Intelligence, Chirstopher Pyle, Operation Garden Plot, Senator Sam Ervin's Senate Subcommittee on Consti­tutional Rights and the Army Spy Scandal of 1970-71.

Very interesting stuff.

Steve Thomas

Steve ThomasNov 29 2004, 02:01 PM

(Plumlee reply)

Do you know about the other place? This was a small place LHO and Marina rented down the street? It too, was a hard place to get into. Are you familiar with the doorway and how to get to this small apartment. And do you know the real address?. That too is an interesting story.

S reply:

No. I hvae never heard of this other place.

Steve Thomas

William PlumleeNov 29 2004, 03:08 PM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Plumlee's request for help and information)

Perhaps others out there should cover this subject if they know. I think it is interesting as to the dates Oswald lived there. (at to this other place) I'll leave it here for now and hope someone comes forward with factual information that we can compare. Thanks for the interest and your post. I hope this leads somewhere for you. Tosh

NOTE TO THIS DAY NOBODY HAS RESPONDED TO ABOVE 2004 RESEARCH. documentation is now in place.

Edited January 13, 2008 by William Plumlee

[James Richards]

Tosh,

Regarding a Capt. Saxton, there was a West Point graduate by the name of Ben Saxton Jr.

In 1958, he was Lt. Ben Saxton stationed in Nurnberg with the Fourth Armoured Division. He was also an aide to Brig. Gen. W.F. Ryan.

Saxton married a German girl during this time.

In 1963, he was Captain Ben Saxton. Also worth mentioning is that he was an NRA expert rifleman medal winner.

Does he ring a bell?

James

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,

Regarding a Capt. Saxton, there was a West Point graduate by the name of Ben Saxton Jr.

In 1958, he was Lt. Ben Saxton stationed in Nurnberg with the Fourth Armoured Division. He was also an aide to Brig. Gen. W.F. Ryan.

Saxton married a German girl during this time.

In 1963, he was Captain Ben Saxton. Also worth mentioning is that he was an NRA expert rifleman medal winner.

Does he ring a bell?

James

No I do not recall this person. I was asked about him some years ago and I thought it might have been a Col.Simpson, but that was proven wrong. It was a speculation on my part. I should never speculate or recall from memory..., thats proves deadly in this game. Sometimes the "powers that be" will lead you down that path and then pounce on you to cover their miss deeds.

[Charles Drago]

Why was an 'Abort Team' sent in? Who sent them?

For over nine years this 'Specialized Army Unit" (SAU) was burried within the Pentagon. It was a very small 'test unit' before it surfaced in 1969, but it had been operational before it became the DMS. Even the CIA did not know about it's early existence. It was solely a military matter. A left over from Ike's days.

President Kennedy found out about this secret unit and ask the CIA about it. They knew nothing. Yes the military was in Dallas that day and they were not in uniform. And other military intel units did not know of their existence, or where they were located..,or why. (end )

The Abort Team -- what shall I call it ... rumor, or legend, or reality? -- makes no sense if its primary mission was to save JFK's life AND it was in position to do so.

Unless the game was to accomplish the mission in a highly dramatic and PUBLIC fashion so as to kill a whole flock of birds with one stone, and things went terribly wrong.

I'll cut to the chase. Are you aware of a core (as opposed to corp) of loyal military officers, then and/or now, who struggle deep within the corrupt system to clean it?

Are code names for operations and/or entities ever used more than once and simultaneously in an effort to further confuse and disguise?

Could there be more than one so-called Pegasus group/operation?

Edited January 15, 2008 by Charles Drago

[William Plumlee]

Why was an 'Abort Team' sent in? Who sent them?

For over nine years this 'Specialized Army Unit" (SAU) was burried within the Pentagon. It was a very small 'test unit' before it surfaced in 1969, but it had been operational before it became the DMS. Even the CIA did not know about it's early existence. It was solely a military matter. A left over from Ike's days.

President Kennedy found out about this secret unit and ask the CIA about it. They knew nothing. Yes the military was in Dallas that day and they were not in uniform. And other military intel units did not know of their existence, or where they were located..,or why. (end )

The Abort Team -- what shall I call it ... rumor, or legend, or reality? -- makes no sense if its primary mission was to save JFK's life AND it was in position to do so.

Unless the game was to accomplish the mission in a highly dramatic and PUBLIC fashion so as to kill a whole flock of birds with one stone, and things went terribly wrong.

I'll cut to the chase. Are you aware of a core (as opposed to corp) of loyal military officers, then and/or now, who struggle deep within the corrupt system to clean it?

Are code names for operations and/or entities ever used more than once and simultaneously in an effort to further confuse and disguise?

Could there be more than one so-called Pegasus group/operation?

Thank You for your reply. I will attempt to answer your questions the best I can.

The term "Abort" was first told to me by a CIA case officer in West Palm Beach Florida before JFK's trip to Dallas and again on the flight to Dallas. To me that meant prior knowledge.

At that point in time I would have no way of knowing any of the background as to the lead in to this term or that mission. I was told information received from Miami and a few Cubans had been picked up and it was rumored that they were going to fire on Air Force One at West Palm Beach (Nov. 17th or there about) From those interviews was information about Austin and Dallas. There were many rumors that persons unknown were in process of assassination. Most had been proven as false. the "Team" (if I can use that term) did not think much about this pending hit. They felt it was just another crazy threat which meant nothing. As to rumor, legend, or reality? From my POV I have to saw reality. The details as I see them or saw them are to complicated to detail at this time.

"...I'll cut to the chase. Are you aware of a core (as opposed to corp) of loyal military officers, then and/or now, who struggle deep within the corrupt system to clean it?

YES very much aware. I too have played in that ball park from the Pentagon and CIA Hdq;. In fact it was a spin from those type of operations and players who were sent to Dallas by some of those loyal hard working staff within the Pentagon and the CIA. As to the "core" as you speak. Yes I do know some of these "core" personal who work very hard and sometimes in total secret to "clean up" some of the mess others started or left behind. Not all the Military or CIA for that matter, are what some claim to be "Rouges" or "infiltrators" Most of those types are associated with special interest and not loyal military personal working for the interest of the United States and its policies. I have always stated that, but sometimes that part is left out on interviews of the past by those who want to fit my "tale" into their works to prove had bad our government is. I never intended for my story to go off in that direction. But its on the record where it counts on where I stand and have stood for years. I have tried to help this "core" of military personal, and have done so over the years. However, "Sometimes we have found the enemy and he is US" type mentality roams the halls of the Pentagon as you know.

Are code names for operations and/or entities ever used more than once and simultaneously in an effort to further confuse and disguise?

Again I will try to answer the best I can from my POV. NO if you know what you say you know about "Black "off the books operations" then you would know why this is never done. Even names associated with various operations are often changed while engaged in that operation. Names are only used once. Operational names are sometimes used as "cut-out". However, an none sanction Ops sometimes compromised an official Ops by infiltration from unauthorized personal. KGB was good at that... so was "Mockingbird". after it was infiltrated. This comes under the heading 'Method and Procedures"

Could there be more than one so-called Pegasus group/operation?

Again NO. BUT you might find a cable with NAG/Pegasus-RTC from S/E Asia back in the Nam days. Or it could be a search and destroy team with connections back to a named Operation. Similar to the person or personal found in KUBAK-01 report.

What led up to Watergate? What did we find in those investigations?.... How did they come together? Was it a Pentagon Operation? Was it a CIA operation? Was it a WH operation? Was it a Rouge operation? Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Most of the questions you ask cannot be answered by a simple yes or no. And to thoughly explain would be a book. One I do not care to write.

[Charles Drago]

I'm grateful for your responses, and I'd like to shamelessly continue to tap your experiences and intuition.

Can/will you tell me anything about a "Joseph Silverthorne" and/or a Silverthorne Stables (perhaps in France)? Or an Operation Silverthorne?

Can you speak authoritatively on the role of Delk Simpson in this affair?

How about Napoleon Valeriano?

Again I must refrain from commenting on the possibilities of connections between and among these queries -- at least for now. I'm guessing that you'll understand.

Thanks again,

Charles

[Steve Thomas]

Charles,

I'm grateful for your responses, and I'd like to shamelessly continue to tap your experiences and intuition.

Can/will you tell me anything about a "Joseph Silverthorne" and/or a Silverthorne Stables (perhaps in France)? Or an Operation Silverthorne?

Wasn't the word "Silverthorne" on Bill Harvey's handwritten notes about the ZRRifle Program?

Steve Thomas

[William Plumlee]

I'm grateful for your responses, and I'd like to shamelessly continue to tap your experiences and intuition.

Can/will you tell me anything about a "Joseph Silverthorne" and/or a Silverthorne Stables (perhaps in France)? Or an Operation Silverthorne?

Can you speak authoritatively on the role of Delk Simpson in this affair?

How about Napoleon Valeriano?

Again I must refrain from commenting on the possibilities of connections between and among these queries -- at least for now. I'm guessing that you'll understand.

Thanks again,

Charles

I think I know where you are going with this:

Because I am short on time at the moment I will just be very brief and if it works for you .., then I will go into it a little deep if you like.

This may seem criptic. But if you are aware of what I say then I would be glad to exchange more information. If not then we will leave it there: Here goes

Valeriano was at one time an instructor at the School of Americas at about the time it was formed around the sixties (memory) he later went to Central America and headed up the Death SQd and became a known assassin. It has been said he was a CIA/Covert Operative. You might try a background check on a recently declassified report found in the LAZO or LASO file of 62-63 along with a military person named I can recall but think it was a Col. James Barley (I think)

This Ops became known as a "Team C-TF" and worked into the Special Group and the 5412th. The OMC 235 group was doing hit and run operations of a psychological nature. Soon some of these groups splintered into SOG-40 or Ops 40. I think this was around the years of 1960-72, but not sure (I'm working on memory) Valeriano also known as 'Snake" was the lead point man and POC for this operation. (I can't recall at this time the names of some of those Ops down there) Colombia, El Salvador and Guatamala..... In the early days late fifties Buddy Walker previous Marine played havy in those Operations before he became an instructor at Benning and on to the SoA.

Fletch Prouty some years before his death met with me and we talked about some of those operations before and after the BoP. All that information was classified Top Secret and I questioned Fletch on how he got the documentation he showed me... it was still marked Secret. He did not respond.

Do you know about the "Colombia Survey Team" and what its fuction was in the sixties?

Get back to me if I have or on the same page. When I have time I'll go deeper into some of this and really piss some people off...

I knew of a Col Silverthorn but he was WW11 and worked with my step-dad "Clearnce Morgan", in the South Pacific. I thought he was OSS but not sure. He was associated with "Bull" Simpson in 1943-44 then came to the Pentagon.

I have ran out of time.. going on a trip for a few days...... There might be nothing to my ramble, but this is the best I can do on cue in reference to you questions....

[Charles Drago]

Sir,

I too am pressed for time this evening.

So I thank you for your prompt and revealing responses, which I assure you I shall digest and act upon. By the time you return, I'll have done my best to respond in kind.

Be safe.

Charles

[Cliff Varnell]

The term "Abort" was first told to me by a CIA case officer in West Palm Beach Florida before JFK's trip to Dallas and again on the flight to Dallas. To me that meant prior knowledge.

Tosh, do you recall how long before the assassination you first heard about an Abort mission?

Specifically, was it before or after November 1 '63?

TIA...

[William Plumlee]

The term "Abort" was first told to me by a CIA case officer in West Palm Beach Florida before JFK's trip to Dallas and again on the flight to Dallas. To me that meant prior knowledge.

Tosh, do you recall how long before the assassination you first heard about an Abort mission?

Specifically, was it before or after November 1 '63?

TIA...

I think it was after Nov 17 give or take a day or two. Information had been received from Miami. I was in West Palm (Loxahachee, Fla) when we received that info and that is what sent the team to Dallas.

I am in process of leaving on a trip ..... so I can't be more detailed. more for you when I get back in a few weeks....

[Wim Dankbaar]

Tosh, You might want to contact Robert Clayton Buick. He claims Roselli told him about the abort team in prison.

Email me and I'll give you his number. dank@xs4all.nl

I can share something else re Files military service. You'll be surpised.

Wim

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, You might want to contact Robert Clayton Buick. He claims Roselli told him about the abort team in prison.

Email me and I'll give you his number. dank@xs4all.nl

I can share something else re Files military service. You'll be surpised.

Wim

Wim: I am at the airport and short on time.

Many years ago I had a brief encounter with Buick....(or Black) It came from one of Roselli's associates, can't remember who. (NOT ROSELLI) Barnard Fensterwald set up the contact. This was in reference to "Billy Joe Keesey" and a contract Billy Joe had done for the mob concerning a diplomat from Mexico. Gary Shaw and Fensterwald Jr had information about Billy Joe.... some years later Billy Joe made a statement that "Buick" was in or knew about Dallas. But nothing about any teams operating around Dallas or he would'nt say because he said "he was scared to go there" Billy Joe was in jail at the time. His home town was El Paso (or thats where he was listed at the time he stold a bunch of Parachutes at Ft Bliss.) (I think I have that right.. memory) Ask Buick if he knew Billy Joe? I do know that Buick (or Black as some have changed his name around for whatever reasons) was in the same prison as Roselli as wel as ...................JB.... of Tucson who said Roselli was in a storm drain at Dallas. Roselli was puting out feelers to see what JB knew about the JFK matter. JB wrote a book about the information Roselli had told him.

If you like you can have Buick contact me.... If I contact him it would only contaminate him and me and the "ABORT TEAM" or any valid information he might have in that direction....... because of well........ you know that drill. ?// I do not know what happened to Billy Joe or that investigation (about 1979-80 or there abouts.... again memeory ..... which I am not allowed to use) If its not written about in some BS book... then it did not happen... makes me sick... Got to go... hope this helps..... you know my take on Jimmy has not changed.... However, Tell him Hell-o from me and I hope he is doing well.... But I can not directly help in that direction.

P.S. Wim: Be careful. There are some powers out there that are really PISSED off. no details at this time.... but they are crawling from under their rocks and out of the woodwork... watch your six old friend...

Edited January 16, 2008 by William Plumlee

[David Boylan]

Just bumping some of the old stuff.