Was Muchmore’s film shown on WNEW-TV, New York, on November 26, 1963?

[Charles Drago]

Paul...I will toss out an idea for consideration.

What if the Russians had their OWN cinematographer there

to record the event?

Jack

Jack,

A most stimulating and important question.

When, within the context of analyses of events such as those we study on this Forum, we direct our attention to "the Russians" or any other meta-group ("the CIA," "the KGB," "the military," "Cubans," "Americans," etc.), we beg the larger, more important issue relating to what I'll term the Matryoshka concept of political analysis.

The Matryoshka, of course, is the Russian so-called "nesting doll," or the thing-within-a-thing doll, if you will.

Let's stay in the neighborhood for a moment. Which Russians would have been in Dealey Plaza?

The KGB?

OK, which faction of the KGB? Andropov/Brezshnev hard-liners, or Khrushchev loyalists?

Moving far afield: Were Cubans there? Communist Cubans?

Ok, which Communist Cubans? Hard-line Peking Commies, or Soviet (Khrushchev)-inspired Commies?

Was the CIA there?

OK, which faction of the CIA? Yankees or Cowboys?

To the degree that we simplify these terms, we condemn ourselves to endless labors in search of truth and justice which will not be discerned, let alone achieved, in our lifetimes.

Don't misunderstand me, my friend. I am not taking you to task. I haven't the temerity. I'm simply attempting to use your question to make a point and stimulate response.

What George Michael Evica referred to as the treasonous cabal of American and Soviet hard-line intelligence officers whose masters were above Cold War differences depended for its/their protection and success upon the fostering among the multitudes of simplistic notions of East and West.

As did their aforementioned masters, who beyond doubt may be discovered at the ultimate sponsorship level of the JFK assassination.

Charles

[Trygve V. Jensen]

I fixed this problem a little over a year ago and posted the repaired frames. I think the frames that Duncan referenced are probably copies of these.

They are.

Processed first through Archangel. http://www.aparchive.com/aparchive/pages/p...news/ln_jfk.htm

[Jack White]

Paul...I will toss out an idea for consideration.

What if the Russians had their OWN cinematographer there

to record the event?

Jack

Jack,

A most stimulating and important question.

When, within the context of analyses of events such as those we study on this Forum, we direct our attention to "the Russians" or any other meta-group ("the CIA," "the KGB," "the military," "Cubans," "Americans," etc.), we beg the larger, more important issue relating to what I'll term the Matryoshka concept of political analysis.

The Matryoshka, of course, is the Russian so-called "nesting doll," or the thing-within-a-thing doll, if you will.

Let's stay in the neighborhood for a moment. Which Russians would have been in Dealey Plaza?

The KGB?

OK, which faction of the KGB? Andropov/Brezshnev hard-liners, or Khrushchev loyalists?

Moving far afield: Were Cubans there? Communist Cubans?

Ok, which Communist Cubans? Hard-line Peking Commies, or Soviet (Khrushchev)-inspired Commies?

Was the CIA there?

OK, which faction of the CIA? Yankees or Cowboys?

To the degree that we simplify these terms, we condemn ourselves to endless labors in search of truth and justice which will not be discerned, let alone achieved, in our lifetimes.

Don't misunderstand me, my friend. I am not taking you to task. I haven't the temerity. I'm simply attempting to use your question to make a point and stimulate response.

What George Michael Evica referred to as the treasonous cabal of American and Soviet hard-line intelligence officers whose masters were above Cold War differences depended for its/their protection and success upon the fostering among the multitudes of simplistic notions of East and West.

As did their aforementioned masters, who beyond doubt may be discovered at the ultimate sponsorship level of the JFK assassination.

Charles

Good points, Charles. I was using "Russians" in the generic sense, not any particular faction.

But if one of those factions had advance knowledge of the event, they could have been there

with a camera...both to have their OWN version...and consider that it was a true record of

what happened...USED IT FOR BLACKMAIL!

Jack

[Len Colby]

Something very interesting was going on with the assassination films on November 25-26, 1963. What it was, and why, offers the potential to shed important light on much more than just the history of the films.

The history of the Muchmore film can be read in Trask's book "The Pictures of the Pain". If anyone doubts what film was flown to NY and shown on TV, then read Trask's book. The interesting part about Muchmore's film was that it wasn't known to the Feds until after it had been aired to the public.

Sorry, Bill, but I've accidentally sent my only pair of reading specs to Jim Fetzer. Please remind me of the page reference and/or footnote in Trask's Pictures of the Pain wherein he explicitly states that Muchmor's film was shown on WNEW-TV on 26 November 1963 at, well, anytime? I would hate readers of this thread to be left with the impression that you've just made this up and that, in fact, there is no such claim made by Trask anywhere in the book.

Paul

PS Check your pants aren't aflame. I fear a conflagration.

Paul...I checked the chapter on Muchmore. I could find no mention of NWEW-TV. What I did

find:

1. The FBI was not interested in her fillm

2. She sold the UNDEVELOPED film to UPI for $1000 (she did not see her film)

None of this contradicts the "official" story

3. She denied taking footage on Elm Street

Sorta

"she said she had a movie camera with her at the time…but she advised she did not obtain any photographs the assassination scene"

Muchmore Dec 4, 1963 FBI interview summary

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/wi..._hsca_0080a.gif

"She advised that as the motorcade made a right turn onto Houston Street and proceeded north on to Elm Street

she took approximately 4 to 5 feet of film of the president’s car

."

Mrs. Muchmore stated that after the car turned on Elm Street from Houston Street, she heard a loud noise which at first she thought was a firecracker but then with the crowd of people running in all directions and hearing the two further noises, sounding like gunfire, she advised that she began to run to find a place to hide.

[...]

She related that

she panicked and does not recall the settings on the camera

or what she did after learning that the noises were gunshots”

Feb. 14, 1964 FBI interview summary.

4. Nobody knew of her Elm footage till 1964 publication of FOUR DAYS

Nobody or just nor the FBI?

Mr. Shaneyfelt.

Our first knowledge of this came as a result of a review of the book "Four Days" which covers the assassination period, in which representatives of the FBI noted a colored picture taken from a motion picture film that did not match either the Nix film or the Zapruder film.

Once we established that, then we investigated and learned that it was made by Mrs. Mary Muchmore, and was at that time in the possession of United Press International in New York,

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol5/page140.php

5. Following Trask's narrative of her activity, it seems impossible for her to move from her filming

location on Houston to the location where her "Elm footage" was shot from in the time allowed.

Please elaborate, Elm is only 200 feet from Main

6. Her Elm footage lasts only 3 seconds, but is perfectly framed on the limo.

It doesn't seem so perfectly framed when watching it.

Would 4 - 5 come out to around 3 seconds? From memory it was a little longer

[Len Colby]

The name of the film-taker was totally irrelevant. UPI

“Scenes” can refer to stills and it wouldn’t surprise me that even though one can’t see much in the Muchmore film people might have considered seeing a person get killed in real life “gruesome” and judging on the stills from Muchmore on Duncan’s link there are better quality versions than the one on YouTube.

Doesn't convince, Len. There was a film circulating which was genuinely gruesome and it wasn't the Muchmore:

An inconclusive reply to inconclusive speculation. You failed to reply to my other points.

[Bill Miller]

Doesn't convince, Len. There was a film circulating which was genuinely gruesome and it wasn't the Muchmore:

An inconclusive reply to inconclusive speculation. You failed to reply to my other points.

You are correct, Len and its only more reason that these select few never get anywhere with what should be earth-shattering news! Here is something Mack said to me when discussing this issue, "I'm not aware of any confirmed account of an actual film of the assassination on Russian TV or, for that matter, any TV station or network until midday on what is now the FOX TV station in New York City.

To the contrary, I am aware of many conflicting accounts of both the Z and Muchmore films indicating great confusion in the news media as two American giants, LIFE and UPI, waged their own battle to be first with assassination images. Stills from both films started appearing on TV and in print as early as Tuesday the 26th.

Also, it is quite possible that the date of the Russian TV film appearance is in error or the reporter's characterization of it weeks later is simply wrong.

I also know from several newspaper stories at the time that live U.S. broadcast coverage of the assassination weekend that was seen in Europe, Russia, Japan and many other countries all originated with NBC. That network had exclusive access to the transatlantic cable and the two orbiting satellites; in fact, NBC, whose original tapes still exist and whose contents have been seen and documented minute by minute in two books, aired the Dave Wiegman film several times. Wiegman's film, while not showing Kennedy being hit, does show the assassination scene before, during and after the assassination. The horrified faces of the eyewitnesses on the ground - Cheryl McKinnon and the Newman family - would certainly have been considered upsetting or even gruesome at that more sensitive time. "

Edited February 13, 2008 by Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

Doesn't convince, Len. There was a film circulating which was genuinely gruesome and it wasn't the Muchmore:

An inconclusive reply to inconclusive speculation. You failed to reply to my other points.

You are correct, Len and its only more reason that these select few never get anywhere with what should be earth-shattering news! Here is something Mack said to me when discussing this issue, "I'm not aware of any confirmed account of an actual film of the assassination on Russian TV or, for that matter, any TV station or network until midday on what is now the FOX TV station in New York City.

To the contrary, I am aware of many conflicting accounts of both the Z and Muchmore films indicating great confusion in the news media as two American giants, LIFE and UPI, waged their own battle to be first with assassination images. Stills from both films started appearing on TV and in print as early as Tuesday the 26th.

Also, it is quite possible that the date of the Russian TV film appearance is in error or the reporter's characterization of it weeks later is simply wrong.

I also know from several newspaper stories at the time that live U.S. broadcast coverage of the assassination weekend that was seen in Europe, Russia, Japan and many other countries all originated with NBC. That network had exclusive access to the transatlantic cable and the two orbiting satellites; in fact, NBC, whose original tapes still exist and whose contents have been seen and documented minute by minute in two books, aired the Dave Wiegman film several times. Wiegman's film, while not showing Kennedy being hit, does show the assassination scene before, during and after the assassination. The horrified faces of the eyewitnesses on the ground - Cheryl McKinnon and the Newman family - would certainly have been considered upsetting or even gruesome at that more sensitive time. "

yawn..... nice dance, no cigar

[Bill Miller]

yawn..... nice dance, no cigar

Don't get in a hurry, David. I am going to give it a few more post and then I'll post just the exact opposite of what I previously said like you did, then I will win the 'David Healy double-talk Award' .... thats far better than a dance and/or a cigar!

[Paul Rigby]

Paul...I checked the chapter on Muchmore. I could find no mention of WNEW-TV.

Thought as much, Jack: Bill Miller is a purveyor of porky pies. Trask either missed this claim, or else knew it to be false and steered clear of it, leaving the dirty work to the footsoldiers of falsehood. Take your pick.

Paul

[Paul Rigby]

The Chuckle Brothers have been conferring. Amnesia and obfuscation resulted:

Also, it is quite possible that the date of the Russian TV film appearance is in error or the reporter's characterization of it weeks later is simply wrong.

As Mack well knows - it's been on this forum before at least once - Tass stated flat out that Soviet viewers had been shown footage of the actual shooting, and contemporaneous Foreign Office files, inspected years later, confirmed it. Links to both:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/worldreaction.html

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/wc_pe...lmson%20TV.html

I note with a smirk that one G. Mack, no less, assured Ian Griggs, the man responsible for the fine piece of research at the other end of the first link above, that "the Muchmore Film had been shown on a New York TV station, and probably others, on the 25th. He added that since the film was owned by UPI, it was likely to have been distributed to other news outlets and so it was quite possible that the film shown on Soviet TV was Marie Muchmore’s footage."

Awesome.

Paul

[David G. Healy]

yawn..... nice dance, no cigar

Don't get in a hurry, David. I am going to give it a few more post and then I'll post just the exact opposite of what I previously said like you did, then I will win the 'David Healy double-talk Award' .... thats far better than a dance and/or a cigar!

focus at the topic at-hand... no comment regarding Paul's post? Or, are you running again? C'mon give us some faith in you, you're out of your league here champ, Gary has thrown you to the wolves.... did you say you were now working at the 6th Floor Museum, I forgot?

Your's in research,

David Healy

[Paul Rigby]

Len Colby: “Scenes” can refer to stills and it wouldn’t surprise me that even though one can’t see much in the Muchmore film people might have considered seeing a person get killed in real life “gruesome” and judging on the stills from Muchmore on Duncan’s link there are better quality versions than the one on YouTube.

Needs more work, frankly, as attempted explanations go. Perhaps Tarantino could shoot the covert remake of the Muchmore film?

AP, "Movie Film Depicts Shooting of Kennedy,” Milwaukee Journal, November 26, 1963, part 1, p.3:

Dallas, Tex.-AP - A strip of color movie film graphically depicting the assassination of President Kennedy was made by a Dallas clothing manufacturer with an 8 millimeter camera.

Several persons in Dallas who have seen the film, which lasts about 15 seconds, say it clearly shows how the president was hit in the head with shattering force by the second of two bullets fired by the assassin.

Life magazine reportedly purchased still picture rights to the material for about $40,000.

("The film also was being distributed by United Press International Newsfilms to subscribing stations. WITI-TV in Milwaukee is a subscriber, but will reserve judgment on whether to show the film until after its officials have viewed it.")

Len Colby comments: "The author presumably hadn’t seen either film, he or she could have falsely assumed it was the same film. The last two sentences were obviously added by a local reporter."

The last two sentences were, indeed, and thus the report is all the more credible, as the unnamed reporter gives unmistakable indication that he - or she - rang WITI-TV and checked.

Len Colby: Are you really proposing that WNEW actually broadcast the Z-film? Can you quote anyone who claims to have seen it? Don’t you think that after a big deal was made about it being shown on TV for the “first” time in 1975 someone would have said ‘hey I saw that 12 years ago!’? If “they” were plotting to further alter the film why show and release a copy on the 26th? Don’t you think someone who saw it might have noticed it matched the stills of Zapruder in Life?

Lot of very interesting and important questions thrown together here. In order:

Yes; No; Was any member of the media going to listen to such a figure? How do you know they didn't?; The figures who spotted the need for changes were not in total control of the film and its distribution: CD Jackson intervened on their behalf, using Time-Life as cover; The stills in the first post-assassination of Life were few and of poor quality.

Paul

[Miles Scull]

The stills in the first post-assassination of Life were few and of poor quality.

Paul

Just a quick note on "stills," Paul, and relating to the topic of alteration:

You are correct, Len and its only more reason that these select few never get anywhere with what should be earth-shattering news! - MILLER

David,

It's my bet that BM will scoff at this (earth-shattering) news as well.

The mother of this chap whose name is Jack & who was born in Texas in 1960 seems to have a connection to LBJ. (see photo below)

Was this "still" also altered?

Guess the ball's in BM's court now, David. Like I said: photos don't lie. Is it the other son, or not?

What about it, BM?

[Bill Miller]

Sorry, Bill, but I've accidentally sent my only pair of reading specs to Jim Fetzer. Please remind me of the page reference and/or footnote in Trask's Pictures of the Pain wherein he explicitly states that Muchmor's film was shown on WNEW-TV on 26 November 1963 at, well, anytime? I would hate readers of this thread to be left with the impression that you've just made this up and that, in fact, there is no such claim made by Trask anywhere in the book.

Paul

PS Check your pants aren't aflame. I fear a conflagration.

Paul, you're joking - right? Trask's book tells of the sale of the film - date - etc.. I then went to Gary Mack to find out that the details of the Muchmore film showed up in the press. That article told of the showing of the Muchmore film (I believe the night before). Maybe if you'd get all the facts before drawing your conclusions, then possibly you'd better understand my position. Here is Mack's email address ... feel free to learn as much as you can on the matter - GMack@JFK.Org

[Bill Miller]

It's my bet that BM will scoff at this (earth-shattering) news as well.

The mother of this chap whose name is Jack & who was born in Texas in 1960 seems to have a connection to LBJ. (see photo below)

Was this "still" also altered?

Guess the ball's in BM's court now, David. Like I said: photos don't lie. Is it the other son, or not?

What about it, BM?

What I scoff at is your lack of knowledge concerning the things you say or in this case 'try to say'. Alterations in 1963 would have to be done in the dark room, which makes photo and film manipulation and entire different ball-game in those days. You should take some time off from trolling and discuss with someone who'd know and find out what options were available in 1963 to alter film - then check the timing of the chain of custody of any particular piece of film so to know if a window of time was even reasonable to carry out such a deed - then deduce what could possibly be gained by attempting such a feat. Then posting some bone-head illustration might seem like a complete waste of time when trying to compare apples to oranges.