Help in correlating timing to z-frames

[Lee Forman]

Any help appreciated - just trying to get an appreciation for the timing of these frames on the basis of the Zapruder 'clock.' An estimate within 3 frames would be useful. Looking to establish some rough estimates on timing for a future post.

Nix, Muchmore and Willis. What would be the corresponding z-frame?

Willis - z202?

Betzner - z186?

Thanks for any help...

First frame - z354 is my guess...

Next guess - z292

Next guess - z341

- lee

Edited April 9, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Does this look to be accurate?

Mr. LIEBELER - Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you mak yourself out?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I can't , unless it is one of these two men right here - I can't tell - if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper - I can show you myself in it.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Ballpark?

[Chris Davidson]

Lee,

This is from Myers. If you feel it has validity.

If you want to download his PDF go here. The link is under the photo.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm

Was there ever a conclusion drawn that Hudson is or isn't visable in Willis? I know the forum had this discussion awhile back.

John D and Frank A did some in-depth research on Nix/Z sync.

chris

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

This is from Myers. If you feel it has validity.

If you want to download his PDF go here. The link is under the photo.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm

Was there ever a conclusion drawn that Hudson is or isn't visable in Willis? I know the forum had this discussion awhile back.

John D and Frank A did some in-depth research on Nix/Z sync.

chris

Hey Chris - Thanks - I don't care to trust anything from Myers personally. Am I in the ballpark on the timing in your opinion?

Speaking for myself, I always reached the same conclusion - that there were only 2 men on the stairs in the Willis - Hudson and the young man he encountered prior to the arrival of the motorcade. The only other visible figure is of course BDM.

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I would have to thusly assume that you do not believe Shaneyfelt?

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0353a.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0353b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol15_0354a.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0248a.htm

Personally, I would not believe him either.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In event this is of any help.

Just something from long ago.

P.S. It would be assumed that one would recall that elevation 423.07 is the SS as well as FBI determined point at which JFK was definitely hit.

[Lee Forman]

In event this is of any help.

Just something from long ago.

P.S. It would be assumed that one would recall that elevation 423.07 is the SS as well as FBI determined point at which JFK was definitely hit.

Definitely hit, or definitely we can see him reacting in confirmation of a hit?

Tom,

Your work on the 'graze' shot to the top of Kennedy's head is stupendous - I find it highly logical, well researched, 100% probable - solves a lot of puzzles also, including the dent to the chrome - just in my opinion. However, it is still my firm belief that the traces of a shot from the front were removed from historical record - photographic, eye-witness as possible, film, x-ray and medical examination. I still believe that this shot closely followed that graze wound from the rear - and will continue to do so - otherwise there is really no need for Coley to have his photos of the pool of blood in this area confiscated with a warning not to talk, or intimidation of witnesses, gag rule to the SS, strange inconsistencies in the photographic and film records, etc. And the focus should be here on the stairs - where a large part of the action went down - hiding in plain sight. Quite honestly, I believe we have overestimated what transpired in this vicinity - primarily due to malefaction on the part of our Government - including a lot of cowards that took the pocket veto [pensions, job security, following orders, covering their butts, political views, whatever].

The point here, which may not be clear, is that there was some funny business going on while these seized sources were under control. More on that another time - no I don't trust Shaneyfelt either - or Hoover, Dulles, Ball, Johnson, Decker, Specter, Ford, etc.

- lee

[Chris Davidson]

Lee,

Your photo sync's are within the 3 frame tolerance. imo

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

Here's the problem:

Hudson is wearing light colored pants in Muchmore.

If that's supposed to be Hudson in Willis, where are the light pants?

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right

explanation needed,

chris

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

Your photo sync's are within the 3 frame tolerance. imo

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

Here's the problem:

Hudson is wearing light colored pants in Muchmore.

If that's supposed to be Hudson in Willis, where are the light pants?

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right

explanation needed,

chris

Add this to the stack - in Muchmore the alleged 'Third Man' has got on a dark colored sweater, but in Nix it looks like a white jacket or white shirt - more along the lines of the guy seen by JC Price.

Logically, the man on the stairs was BDM. So how come he's so darkly colored in Betzner and Willis?

The bottomline for why I bothered with this thread is that I believe a very simple assassination technique was used at this juncture involving a man that moved from a position behind the retaining wall, took his shot, and then turned and left. What ended up happening was that the Government took steps to erase it - getting rid of the guy in Moorman - but adding a bogus character to the Muchmore to explain the Nix and the man folks would have seen running - including Jean Hill, JC Price, Malcolm Couch, etc. Plus you'd have to have an official record handy so you could denounce anything that you may not have controlled which could emerge later. I believe that the Nix is the untouched version - the Muchmore and Moorman are totally false with respect to the individual standing next to Hudson.

Hudson isn't distracted when he moves and runs away.

Hudson never mentions him. Never! He describes the mannin the red shirt which we see in the Willis, Moorman, Nix, Muchmore, Bond, Towner, etc.

There's no time to be in that position - the alterationist screwed up; especially looking nonchalant. Hudson would be staring at the guy if he sprinted up to that location.

Less than 3 seconds to watch and he runs? Absurd.

He's transparent and moves in a way that defies the laws of gravity in the Muchmore.

He's a cut and paste when compared to the Moorman.

In the Moorman he's got no left foot, his legs are sticks and he has no genitalia.

He's a bait and switch for the man that squatted a bit further up the stairs and fired the shot that bashed Kennedy's brains out the back of his head so that they resembled confetti.

No sophisticated secret weapons, no spotter and highly skilled and trained marksman with a high powered rifle and scope, etc. Simple and effective. One man, up close, handheld weapon. This is how the British trained the Czech exiles for the Anthropoid team that did the Heydrich hit. Find a hairpin curve, dress to blend, handheld weapon, get in close, bomb as failsafe.

How this relates to the pool of blood as he retreated is still a bit of mystery - however, I believe there are still clues [Coley, Hill and Couch for example - "They hit him!"] plus I am still hopeful someone with some cojones will come forward or help me out with some material.

Check it out - this is a SHOPPED version. All I am doing is removing the offensive piece of the photo. I did nothing else but add the red box.

- lee

lforman23@comcast.net

Edited April 9, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In event this is of any help.

Just something from long ago.

P.S. It would be assumed that one would recall that elevation 423.07 is the SS as well as FBI determined point at which JFK was definitely hit.

Definitely hit, or definitely we can see him reacting in confirmation of a hit?

Tom,

Your work on the 'graze' shot to the top of Kennedy's head is stupendous - I find it highly logical, well researched, 100% probable - solves a lot of puzzles also, including the dent to the chrome - just in my opinion. However, it is still my firm belief that the traces of a shot from the front were removed from historical record - photographic, eye-witness as possible, film, x-ray and medical examination. I still believe that this shot closely followed that graze wound from the rear - and will continue to do so - otherwise there is really no need for Coley to have his photos of the pool of blood in this area confiscated with a warning not to talk, or intimidation of witnesses, gag rule to the SS, strange inconsistencies in the photographic and film records, etc. And the focus should be here on the stairs - where a large part of the action went down - hiding in plain sight. Quite honestly, I believe we have overestimated what transpired in this vicinity - primarily due to malefaction on the part of our Government - including a lot of cowards that took the pocket veto [pensions, job security, following orders, covering their butts, political views, whatever].

The point here, which may not be clear, is that there was some funny business going on while these seized sources were under control. More on that another time - no I don't trust Shaneyfelt either - or Hoover, Dulles, Ball, Johnson, Decker, Specter, Ford, etc.

- lee

Tom,

Your work on the 'graze' shot to the top of Kennedy's head is stupendous - I find it highly logical, well researched, 100% probable

One small step for man, one giant leap for "lone-nutter kind"!

However! Be careful, as you too could be permanently banned from all JFK forums for feeding the "nutters"!

Back to subject matter!

I, and others have discussed the Willis location quite extensively.

And, although I firmly accept only three shots fired from the sixth floor of the TSDB, I also have no qualms as to openly sharing information with those such as yourself who are truely attempting to research all avenues of this topic.

The facts, whatever they may be, will either stand or fall on thier on merit among those who conduct thorough and proper research.

However, without vital information, one is frequently hampered from conducting such factual research.

In that regards, hope this is of some assistance.

First work was from the SS Survey Plat of 12/5/63.

This is from the WC work, and one can see the apparant errors, which of couse include the famous/infamous Z208 = Z210 slight/sleight-of-hand episode of the altered survey data, as well as one can see that what would be Z225 is, by the WC's works, Z223.

There are other items of importance here as well, such as the spacing/distance between certain marked frame numbers, which has to do with the "Vehicle Speed Analysis" which I also long ago allowed JFK Lancer to publish.

So, for those who are still working and attempting to resolve the WC shenanigans, this is of some help.

Just as is the HSCA survey plat!

[Lee Forman]

In event this is of any help.

Just something from long ago.

P.S. It would be assumed that one would recall that elevation 423.07 is the SS as well as FBI determined point at which JFK was definitely hit.

Definitely hit, or definitely we can see him reacting in confirmation of a hit?

Tom,

Your work on the 'graze' shot to the top of Kennedy's head is stupendous - I find it highly logical, well researched, 100% probable - solves a lot of puzzles also, including the dent to the chrome - just in my opinion. However, it is still my firm belief that the traces of a shot from the front were removed from historical record - photographic, eye-witness as possible, film, x-ray and medical examination. I still believe that this shot closely followed that graze wound from the rear - and will continue to do so - otherwise there is really no need for Coley to have his photos of the pool of blood in this area confiscated with a warning not to talk, or intimidation of witnesses, gag rule to the SS, strange inconsistencies in the photographic and film records, etc. And the focus should be here on the stairs - where a large part of the action went down - hiding in plain sight. Quite honestly, I believe we have overestimated what transpired in this vicinity - primarily due to malefaction on the part of our Government - including a lot of cowards that took the pocket veto [pensions, job security, following orders, covering their butts, political views, whatever].

The point here, which may not be clear, is that there was some funny business going on while these seized sources were under control. More on that another time - no I don't trust Shaneyfelt either - or Hoover, Dulles, Ball, Johnson, Decker, Specter, Ford, etc.

- lee

Tom,

Your work on the 'graze' shot to the top of Kennedy's head is stupendous - I find it highly logical, well researched, 100% probable

One small step for man, one giant leap for "lone-nutter kind"!

However! Be careful, as you too could be permanently banned from all JFK forums for feeding the "nutters"!

Back to subject matter!

I, and others have discussed the Willis location quite extensively.

And, although I firmly accept only three shots fired from the sixth floor of the TSDB, I also have no qualms as to openly sharing information with those such as yourself who are truely attempting to research all avenues of this topic.

The facts, whatever they may be, will either stand or fall on thier on merit among those who conduct thorough and proper research.

However, without vital information, one is frequently hampered from conducting such factual research.

In that regards, hope this is of some assistance.

First work was from the SS Survey Plat of 12/5/63.

This is from the WC work, and one can see the apparant errors, which of couse include the famous/infamous Z208 = Z210 slight/sleight-of-hand episode of the altered survey data, as well as one can see that what would be Z225 is, by the WC's works, Z223.

There are other items of importance here as well, such as the spacing/distance between certain marked frame numbers, which has to do with the "Vehicle Speed Analysis" which I also long ago allowed JFK Lancer to publish.

So, for those who are still working and attempting to resolve the WC shenanigans, this is of some help.

Just as is the HSCA survey plat!

Lost! So there were originally more frames then?

Zapruder himself seemed unsettled by the 18.3 result. Fully wound I thought that the choices on the f-stop setting were something like 16 and then 25 - can't recall as I no longer gave the camera. I had bought a similar series [not the 414 pd] B&H camera - found 8mm Kodak film on eBay, got to the Plaza, fully wound the camera, stood on the pedestal, fired away for three pans - got back home and discovered that the film never caught - so I exposed nothing. I was pretty disappointed - however Chris Davidson did the same - and it was a tremendous relief to see some of his work.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Close-up Moorman crop taken from the drum-scan.

Conclusion: Bogus.

Added after-the-fact to provide the cover for actual events which included an assassin that took up a position close behind Hudson, took his shot, and fled.

Still waiting for a pair of cojones...make 2008 the year.

Adding an overlay of the Moorman and Muchmore. You get the idea as to how the Muchmore was processed.

lforman23@comcast.net

Edited April 10, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

You look for yourself and think - how does anyone get away with this BS? And they do. What happened to the first man on the stairs? Why does the alleged 'drum scan' of the Moorman fail to capture the man squatting on the stairs? Where is the muzzle burst?

Somebody please end it and send me some of the original material - this is a lie that can no longer be suffered. The time for the truth is now. I'll keep your response confidential - just get me the stuff. I only want the truth out there...finally. Help set the historical record straight.

With only 5 seconds to reach this postion - it's a blatant lie and screw-up. Under 3 seconds to watch and then run - the mismatch on the clothing, the eye-witness accounts, the obvious alterations - end it. Let me be the cut-out here - just want to post the original stuff or the repressed stuff which demonstrates the truth here - it ripples and tugs as the biggest migraine in history here.

- lee

lforman23@comcast.net

Edited April 11, 2008 by Lee Forman

[Bill Miller]

Only 2 men on the steps in Willis, agreed.

The correct phrase would be 'only two men seen on the steps in Willis'. The man closer to the camera is blocking out Hudson, but if one looks closely ... there are parts of Hudson seen beyond the closer man. The two mens coats blend making it appear to be one man with unnaturally long arms ... would one not agree. The other is the sag in Hudson's pants that can be seen behind the closer man's knee.

The reason for one man's coat appearing lighter in one image over another is due to the angle of reflection of the sun's light. There are numerous instances in the Willis photo alone that demonstrates how dark clothing looks light where the suns light is shining down upon it. In real life it would not have looked so different, but on film is another matter altogether.