Additional Claims about the Knoll-Wall

[Ron Ecker]

Eugene,

Your attachment comes out too blurry on my computer, so I can't tell much about it. But it doesn't look like part of any Willis photo I've seen, nor do I recall anyone in a photo walking away from the wall right after the shots.

Ron

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Ron,

Here is the addy for the Willis photograph taken seconds after Willis took his famous Black Dog Man photograph. I should appreciate any info you may have on this photo.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold/willis8lg.jpg

I hope this helps.

EBC

Edited February 3, 2005 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Ron Ecker]

Eugene,

Thanks. If you are referring to the man seen standing on the sidewalk in front of the stopped car, that man is photographer Jim Altgens. He can be seen in the same position in photos on pages 401-403 in the book Pictures of the Pain.

On BDM, based partly on my earlier remarks on his appearance, I think it's possible that BDM was Jack Ruby. I base this also on the fact that a man who looks just like Ruby, with fedora and dark suit, is seen approaching the crowd at the north end of the overpass soon after the shots. (It's the photo that includes newsman Robert McNeill, and is on page 405 of POTP and page 49 of TKOAP.)

Ron

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Ron,

I mean the man standing at / walking from the Knoll left end wall between the left end of the wall and then between the tree and the lamp post.

Look at the car, the lamp post comes as if out of the car roof. There seems to be some sort of bill post on the lamp post, about five feet high (?) - just to the right of this bill post between it and the tree you can see the man.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold/willis8lg.jpg

Can you see him?

EBC

Edited February 3, 2005 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Antti Hynonen]

Eugene B. Connolly Posted Today, 02:05 PM

  Ron,

I mean the man standing at / walking from the Knoll left end wall between the left end of the wall and then between the tree and the lamp post.

Look at the car, the lamp post comes as if out of the car roof. There seems to be some sort of bill post on the lamp post, about five feet high (?) - just to the right of this bill post between it and the tree you can see the man.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold/willis8lg.jpg

Can you see him?

EBC

I believe that man is sitting on the stairs, he is one of the three??? men seen standing on the stairs coming down from the knoll (this can be seen from other photos and footage at or around the time of the head shot). One of the men was one of the caretakers of the area, his name slips my mind right now. The two??? others that were standing next to him have never come forward, and their identities remain unknown.

I believe the man you are referring to is one of the three??? men as described by me above....

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold/willis8lg.jpg

Notice the couple STILL lying / cowering on the ground. There seems to be an air of confusion and apprehension in this photograph taken by Willis seconds after he took the BDM photo. Yet this man seems to be in no hurry to 'get away'. The man is walking / standing and not sitting - his jacket / coat and top of the back of his trousers are clearly visible.

In view of the fact that this photo was taken by Willis only seconds after he took the BDG photo could this man BE the BDM who, if had any involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy, is showing nerves of steel by casually walking away from the scene of the crime?

Does anyone know who this man really is?

EBC

Edited February 3, 2005 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Ron Ecker]

There seems to be some sort of bill post on the lamp post, about five feet high (?) - just to the right of this bill post between it and the tree you can see the man.

That's one of the two men who were standing on the steps with groundskeeper Emmett Hudson at the time of the shots. This one got down to the ground with Hudson while the other one ran away up the steps.

Ron

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

That's one of the two men who were standing on the steps with groundskeeper Emmett Hudson at the time of the shots. This one got down to the ground with Hudson while the other one ran away up the steps.

Thanks Ron. Problem solved.

EBC

[Shanet Clark]

Exactly. The person in the photo is in the "Emmett Hudson Position"

this sidewalk and stairs lead directly from the site of the headshot

back to the disputed area between the fence and wall (where the blood

was found and where classic gunman and black dog man stood)

The figures on the stairs jump like monkeys on the hunt

and they controlled the vital path betwween the secret service limousine

and the railroad yard parking lot...

The photo is very early, seconds only after the shots.

Note the absence of people at the fence/underpass yet.

Note the presence of men in suits sweeping the plain to the left, the south "flat"

Note the spotter team sitting calmly on the curb.

[Alan Healy]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold/willis8lg.jpg

Notice the couple STILL lying / cowering  on the ground. There seems to be an air of confusion and apprehension in this photograph taken by Willis seconds after he took the BDM photo.

Hi Eugene,

Willis6 was taken around forty seconds after Willis5(that equates to around thirty seconds after the headshot).

Yet this man seems to be in no hurry to 'get away'. The man is walking / standing and not sitting - his jacket / coat  and top of the back of his trousers are clearly visible.

This man is probably the one who told Emmett Hudson to get down on the ground as he was one of the two standing on the steps next to him at the time & the one who stayed with Emmett after the shooting stopped.

In view of the fact that this photo was taken by Willis only seconds after  he took the BDG photo could this man BE the BDM who, if had any involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy, is showing nerves of steel by casually walking away from the scene of the crime?

EBC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This guy "stars" alongside Blackdogman in Willis5, so no, they were not the same dude.

He may have been involved in securing the steps though(he certainly held Hudson up from going up the steps & behind the wall) no one knows.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

I have just gained what to my mind is a proper perspective of Black Dog Man by studying the enlargement of this person at the top of page 192 in The Killing of a President. I believe it's an enlargement from Betzner (seen on the same page but unidentified as such), though the confusing text indicates it's from Willis. In any case this is the clearest enlargement I've seen of BDM, and for the first time I see his face, which helps put the rest of his image in perspective.

Bill refers to the "slanted shade line" that creates the BDM image. This relates to Bill's belief that BDM is shadow seen on Gordon Arnold standing behind the wall. I have not agreed with that view, mainly because BDM is too large to be shadow just on part of Gordon Arnold or anyone else of normal size. BDM is the full upper part of a darkly clothed person or persons.

The impression of shadow is created by the fact that BDM is wearing a dark coat and fedora. The top of the fedora is almost as clear in this enlargement as the top of Hat Man's fedora behind the fence in the Moorman photo. I have previously had the impression that the brim of BDM's hat is unusually wide, nothing like a fedora, but I now see that in the background behind him there is a streak in the photo that runs parallel to the hat brim, blending it with it to make the brim look wider than it is.

The man is leaning forward on the wall, his left elbow extended on the top of the wall, as his face is looking straight toward JFK. What is puzzling is the bright light or flash, which looks very much like a muzzle flash, just to the lower right (his right) of BDM's face. It's tempting to say it's a muzzle flash, but it can't be, because if he was shooting at JFK in this photo the flash would be in front of his face, on a line with JFK.

There is nothing that I know of between BDM and the camera that would interpose this splotch of light on his body. I'm wondering if perhaps BDM is holding a radio up to the side of his face, and the radio is reflecting light.

There is another flash-like light right below that one. It's in position to be his left hand as if holding the bottom of the radio in his right hand. But I question whether his hand would brightly reflect light while his face does not. In any case, these two bright spots on his right side, one below the other, are what give BDM's figure a deceptively slanted look.

In sum, it seems clear to me, from this enlargement, that the man's face is visible, as he's looking toward JFK, and he's wearing a dark coat and fedora as he's leaning foward on the wall. I don't know what the two brights spots are. Nor do I know why this person seems to have beat a hasty retreat soon after the Betzner and Willis photos were taken, or why no eyewitnesses that we know of actually saw him where he is seen in these photos (though understandably all attention was on the president, and the sound of a shot or shots coming from above and behind him).

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron thankyou,

it is refreshing to hear other people share there thoughts on this "shady" character.

Grodens' blow-up of Betzner, that you refer to above, is not, IMO, the clearest but it probably was for the longest time.

Robert has said that it he obtained it around '78 (while working for the HSCA?)from a print from the original negatives.

It was good at the time but with modern technology we would almost certainly get a far better result today.

Groden

I can't understand how these horizontal lines got in there, in my experience(little as it is) you only get them from TV or video captures, curious.

The high resolution scan from the half-tone print in the November '67 edition of LIFE magazine is, in my view, far superior.

Costella

This is the one were BDM can be clearly seen to be wearing a wide brimmed hat & IMO the only one were we can begin to make out a face.

Here's a bigger crop, were anyone can save it to they're harddrive & zoom into the corner of the wall themselves.

Alan

Edited February 5, 2005 by Alan Healy

[Shanet Clark]

Good photo post.

This shows the faint outline semi-obscured of BLACK DOG MAN.

The "black dog" is sitting up and begging in profile facing left...

Zapruder and his assistant are seen on the right.

The break in the wall, the disjuncture which orients CLASSIC GUNMAN in NIX

is hidden in this photo, the break in the retaining wall falls behind the STEMMONS

sign, so while this photo shows the Black Dog and the Zapruder duo,

the Classic Gunman is obscured by the sign....

[Ron Ecker]

Alan,

Thanks for the BDM images. I don't see the "face" in them that seems faintly discernible in the Groden enlargement in TKOAP. Do you feel that the "face" in the Groden enlargement is a photographic artifact and not a true part of the image? Also, do you agree that either of the two bright spots on BDM's right side is too off center (given the line of sight to JFK) to be a muzzle flash?

Ron

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

Thanks for the BDM images. I don't see the "face" in them that seems faintly discernible in the Groden enlargement in TKOAP. Do you feel that the "face" in the Groden enlargement is a photographic artifact and not a true part of the image? Also, do you agree that either of the two bright spots on BDM's right side is too off center (given the line of sight to JFK) to be a muzzle flash?

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron, I know this may surprise you but I don't own a copy of "The Killing of a President" at this time, my local library has one so......

Anyhoo, it has always been my understanding that the first crop I posted was a scan of the blow-up from that very book.

This one http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1107618344.jpg

I was sure it was, am I wrong?

You obviously see differences so I'll have to go & check.

Do you see the horizontal lines in the TKOAP blow-up?

As for the bright spots on Blackdog, yes, I do still feel they may be from a weapon.

From the Groden blow-up I was never sure but the Costella scan has cleaned things up a lot.

Now, instead of there being one(to my eyes) big white patch, it is clear that there is a pattern & shapes inside this white area that suggests movement, like a blast.

I know what you mean about the position of it being off.

Al Carrier told us that it is almost as if he is shooting at Betzners' camera instead of the limo.

However Al(God bless him for being open-minded on this) also said that he couldn't know how much time had passed since "the gun" had been fired, so BDM could have moved his head.

{Just so it's clear, Al Carrier wasn't supporting Blackdog as a shooter, he was just giving an honest opinion based on the Costella scan, in fact he left me with the impression he had serious doubts about this representing a man who had just fired a gun(& it raised doubts in my own mind too) but he didn't/couldn't rule it out.}

If I find the full post @ Lancer I'll point out what else Al touched on.

From memory, he said he wasn't too happy with the density of the white area & if I remember correctly, said it looked too thick & didn't seem like gunsmoke at all.

This could be down to the quality of the print in LIFE that we are working with though.

This was the first time I'd heard anyone like this(with ballistics knowledge/experience ) give this character an honest going over & since he couldn't rule it out, it would be rude for me too.

Alan

Edited February 6, 2005 by Alan Healy

[Ron Ecker]

Anyhoo, it has always been my understanding that the first crop I posted was a scan of the blow-up from that very book.

This one http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1107618344.jpg

I was sure it was, am I wrong?

You obviously see differences so I'll have to go & check.

Do you see the horizontal lines in the TKOAP blow-up?

Alan,

I get a "Forbidden" message when I try the above link, but I went back and looked at the attachment in your earlier post, and yes there are horizontal lines in the TKOAP enlargement, so it's from the same photo. That's why I said that a line in the photo seemed to blend in with the hat brim and made it look wider than it was.

I found a print copy of the Costella scan, and it does look like the brim is too wide to be a fedora, plus the top of the hat looks flatter. It strikes me as odd than anyone who would take that exposed position at the wall for a sinister purpose would wear some distinctive kind of hat while doing so, as if hoping for attention. In any case, the only "distinctive hat" I've noticed in DP photos is that of the man (misidentified as Jim Braden IMO) with the x's on his hat band. But he is not in dark clothing.

The face that I thought could be discerned in the Groden enlargement is gone both in your blow-up and in the Costella scan. The bright spot was too much to the side of this "face" to be a muzzle flash, but if it's not really the man's face seen in the dark area then I think the possibility that the spot is a muzzle flash still exists.

Ron