Notice anything?

[Pat Speer]

Bernice, "Three Patients" was not written from original interviews. It was written by an author given access to the original statements of the Parkland doctors, which were by no means covered up. These statements were, in fact, printed with the Warren Report.

The "everyone who saw the head wound thought it was on the back of the head" argument is just not true. It is a conspiracy myth. Several people thought it was on the back of the head, but the photos used by Lifton and Groden were all taken many years later. More telling, by far, are the observations of people on 11-22.

We find then that the only three people to point out the wound location within the first few hours all pointed to a wound on the temple. Hmmm.

Here are the original statements of the doctors. They are far from convincing that these men got a thorough look at the head wound, and accurately noted its location.

Appendix VIII - Medical Reports from Doctors at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Texas

Commission Exhibit No. 392

The President arrived in the Emergency Room at exactly 12:43 p. m. in his limousine. He was in the back seat, Gov. Connally was in the front seat of the same car, Gov. Connally was brought out first and was put in room two. The President was brought out next and put in room one. Dr. Clark pronounced the President dead at 1 p. m. exactly. All of the President's belongings except his watch were given to the Secret Service. His watch was given to Mr. O. P. Wright. He left the Emergency Room, the President, at about 2 p.m. in an O'Neal ambulance. He was put in a bronze colored plastic casket after being wrapped in a blanket and was taken out of the hospital. He was removed from the hospital. The Gov. was taken from the Emergency Room to the Operating Room.

The President's wife refused to take off her bloody gloves, clothes. She did take a towel and wipe her face. She took her wedding ring off and placed it on one of the President's fingers.

Summary

The President arrived at the Emergency Room at 12:43 P. M., the 22nd of November, 1963. He was in the back seat of his limousine. Governor Connally of Texas was also in this car. The first physician to see the President was Dr. James Carrico, a Resident in General Surgery.

Dr. Carrico noted the President to have slow, agonal respiratory efforts. He could hear a heartbeat but found no pulse or blood pressure to be present. Two external wounds, one in the lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull, were noted. Through the head wound, blood and brain were extruding. Dr. Carrico inserted a cuffed endotracheal tube. While doing so, he noted a ragged wound of the trachea immediately below the larynx.

At this time, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Attending Surgeon, Dr. Charles Baxter, Attending Surgeon, and Dr. Ronald Jones, another Resident in General Surgery, arrived. Immediately thereafter, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Director of the Department of Anesthesia, and Doctors Giesecke and Hunt, two other Staff Anesthesiologists, arrived. The endotracheal tube had been connected to a Bennett respirator to assist the President's breathing. An Anesthesia machine was substituted for this by Dr. Jenkins. Only 100% oxygen was administered.

A cutdown was performed in the right ankle, and a polyethylene catheter inserted in the vein. An infusion of lactated Ringer's solution was begun. Blood was drawn for type and crossmatch, but unmatched type "O" RH negative blood was immediately obtained and begun. Hydrocortisone 300 mgms was added to the intravenous fluids.

Dr. Robert McClelland, Attending Surgeon, arrived to help in the President's care. Doctors Perry, Baxter, and McClelland began a tracheostomy, as considerable quantities of blood were present from the President's oral pharynx. At this time, Dr. Paul Peters, Attending Urological Surgeon, and Dr. Kemp Clark, Director of Neurological Surgery arrived. Because of the lacerated trachea, anterior chest tubes were place in both pleural spaces. These were connected to sealed underwater drainage.

Neurological examination revealed the President's pupils to be widely dialted and fixed to light. His eyes were divergent, being deviated outward; a skew deviation from the horizontal was present. Not deep tendon reflexes or spontaneous movements were found.

There was a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region, from which profuse bleeding was occurring. 1500 cc. of blood were estimated on the drapes and floor of the Emergency Operating Room. There was considerable loss of scalp and bone tissue. Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound.

Further examination was not possible as cardiac arrest occurred at this point. Closed chest cardiac massage was begun by Dr. Clark. A pulse palpable in both the carotid and femoral arteries was obtained. Dr. Perry relieved on the cardiac massage while a cardiotachioscope was connected. Dr. Fouad Bashour, Attending Physician, arrived as this was being connected. There was electrical silence of the President's heart.

President Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1300 hours by Dr. Clark.

Kemp Clark, M. D.

Director

Service of Neurological Surgery

KC:aa

cc to Dean's Office, Southwestern Medical School

cc to Medical Records, Parkland Memorial Hospital

(Note: this summary was written by Dr. Clark. Here he describes the head wound as right occipito-parietal, which would place it just behind the right ear. As no notes were taken in the ER, however, it seems clear Dr. Clark was relying solely on his memory of a wound seen hours before. As a result, it is not unreasonable to suspect he made a rotation error.)

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

J. F. KENNEDY

DATE AND HOUR 11/22/63 1620

DOCTOR: Carrico

When patient entered Emergency room on ambulance carriage had slow agonal respiratory efforts and scant cardiac beats by auscultation. Two external wounds were noted. One small penetrating wound of ant. neck in lower 1/3. The other wound had avulsed the calvarium and shredded brain tissue present with profuse oozing. No pulse or blood pressure were present. Pupils were dilated and fixed. A cuffed endotracheal tube was inserted and through the laryngoscope a ragged wound of the trachea was seen immediately below the larynx. The tube was passed past the laceration and the cuff inflated. Respiration using the resp assistor on auto-matic were instituted. Concurrently an IV infusion of lactated Ringer solution was begun via catheter placed in right leg and blood was drawn for type and crossmatch. Type O Rh negative blood was obtained as well as hydrocortisone.

In view of tracheal injury and decreased BS a tracheostomy was performed by Dr. Perry and Bilat. chest tubes inserted. A 2nd bld infusion was begun in left arm. In addition Dr. Jenkins began resp with anethesia machine, cardiac monitor, and stimulator attached. Solu cortef IV given (300mg), attempt to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via packs instituted. Despite these measures as well as external cardiac massage, BP never returned and EKG evidence of cardiac activity was never obtained.

Charles J. Carrico M.D

(Note: Dr. Carrico was the first doctor on the scene. Here he fails to specify the exact location of the head wound. Perhaps he, in fact, had no clear recollection of its location. In any event, he would later make statements suggesting the wound was in the occipital bone. After viewing the autopsy photos in the Archives, however, he would disavow these statements, and insist instead that Kennedy’s wounds were as shown in the photos.)

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

J. F. KENNEDY

DATE AND HOUR 22 Nov 1963 DOCTOR: PERRY

Staff Note

At the time of initial examination, the pt. was noted as non-responsive. The eyes were deviated and the pupils were dilated. A considerable quantity of blood was noted on the patient, the carriage and the floor. A small wound was noted in the midline of the neck, in the lower third anteriorly. It was exuding blood slowly. A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted, exposing severely lacerated brain. Brain tissue was noted in the blood at the head of the carriage.

Pulse or heartbeat were not detectable but slow spasmodic respiration was noted. An endotracheal tube was in place and respiration was being assisted. An intravenous infusion was being placed in the leg.

At this point I noted that respiration was ineffective and while additional venisections were done to administer fluids and blood, a tracheostomy was effected. A right lateral injury to the trachea was noted. The tracheostomy tube was put in place and the cuff inflated and respiration assisted. Closed chest cardiac massage was instituted after placement of sealed drainage chest tubes, but without benefit. Electrocardiographic evaluation revealed that no detectable electrical activity existed in the heart. Resuscitation attempts were abandoned after the team of physicians determined that the patient had expired.

Malcolm O. Perry, M.D.

1630 hr 22 Nov 1963

(Note: Perry simply describes the large head wound as posterior. When Kennedy was lying flat on his back, of course, the wound on the top of his head was ...posterior. Perry has since stated that the autopsy photos accurately depict the wounds.)

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR NOV 22, 1963 DOCTOR: BAXTER

Note of Attendance to President Kennedy

I was contacted at approx 12:40 that the President was on the way to the emergency room having been shot. On arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted respirations, a left chest tube being inserted and cut downs going in one leg and in the left arm. The President had a wound in the mid-line of the neck. On first observation of the remaining wounds the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table, with extensive lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated lateral and dilated. No pulse was detectable and respirations were (as noted) being supplied. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (2nd intercostal space anteriorally). Meanwhile, 2 pts of O neg blood were administered by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no heart beat could be detected. Closed chest massage was performed until a cardioscope could be attached which revealed no cardiac activity was obtained. Due to the excessive and irreparable brain damage which was lethal, no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made.

Charles R. Baxter M.D.

Associate Prof of Surgery

Southwestern Medical School

(Note: Baxter’s statement is a bit strange. If “the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing”, as Baxter claimed, there would be a huge hole on the side and back of Kennedy’s head, something noticed by no one. It seems likely, then, that Baxter, not unlike many of the other doctors, referred to all bones towards the back of the head as occipital bone, and was actually talking about the parietal bone. Baxter would eventually try to clear this up. He told the ARRB "None of us at that time, I don't think, were in any position to view the head injury. And, in fact, I never saw anything above the scalpline, forehead line, that I could comment on.”)

DATE AND HOUR 22 Nov 1963

12:20pm to 13:00 hrs

Called by EOR while standing in (illegible) Laboratory at SWMS. Told that the President had been shot. I arrived at the EOR at 1220 - 1225 and .The President was bleeding profusely from the back of the head. There was a large (3 x 3cm) amount of cerebral tissue present on the cart. There was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue present also.

A tracheostomy was being performed by Drs. Perry, Baxter and McClelland. Exam of the President showed that an endotracheal tube was in place and respiratory assistance was being given by Dr. Akins and Jenkins. The pupils were dilated, fixed to light and his eyes were deviated outward and the right one downward as as well .

The trach was completed and I adjusted the endotracheal tube a little bit. Blood was present in the oral pharynx. Suction was used to remove this. Levine Catheter was passed into the stomach at this time.

He was (illegible) that I (illegible) no carotid pulse. I immediately began closed chest massage. A pulse was obtained at the carotid and femoral pulse levels.

Dr. Perry then took over the cardiac massage so I could evaluate the head wound.

There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region. Much of the skull appeared gone at brief examination. The previously described lacerated brain was present.

By this time an EKG was hooked up. There was no electrical activity of the heart and no respiratory effort - He was pronounced dead at 1300 hrs by me.

W. Kemp Clark

22 Nov 1963 1615 hrs -

(Note: although Clark describes cerebral and cerebellar tissue on the cart, his colleagues have noted that macerated brain tissue is difficult to distinguish from cerebellar tissue, and that he, as they, could have been mistaken. His statement that “much of the skull appeared gone” is problematic for those who try to make the Dallas doctors' descriptions of a wound on the back of the head jive with the Zapruder film and autopsy photos' depiction of a wound on top of the head by speculating that the Dallas doctors did not see the large head wound on top of the head because Mrs. Kennedy had put the bones back in place. Clark claimed to see a large hole in the skull, and not a hole beneath some bone flaps. This means that either the large head wound was on the top of the head and Clark was mistaken as to its exact location, or it was on the back of the head as described by Clark and the Zapruder film and autopsy photos have been faked. I choose the first alternative.)

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR Nov. 22, 1963 4:45 P.M. DOCTOR: Robert N. McClelland

Statement Regarding Assassination of President Kennedy

At approximately 12:45 PM on the above date I was called from the second floor of Parkland Hospital and went immediately to the Emergency Operating Room. When I arrived President Kennedy was being attended by Drs Malcolm Perry, Charles Baxter, James Carrico, and Ronald Jones. The President was at the time comatose from a massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea. An endotracheal tube and assisted respiration was started immediately by Dr. Carrico on Duty in the EOR when the President arrived. Drs. Perry, Baxter, and I then performed a tracheotomy for respiratory distress and tracheal injury and Dr. Jones and Paul Peters inserted bilateral anterior chest tubes for pneumothoracis secondary to the tracheomediastinal injury. Simultaneously Dr. Jones had started 3 cut-downs giving blood and fluids immediately, In spite of this, at 12:55 he was pronounced dead by Dr. Kemp Clark the neurosurgeon and professor of neurosurgery who arrived immediately after I did. The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple. He was pronounced dead after external cardiac message failed and ECG activity was gone.

Robert N. McClelland M.D.

Asst. Prof. of Surgery

Southwestern Med.

School of Univ of Tex.

Dallas, Texas

(Note: in this, his earliest statement on the assassination, Dr. McClelland reveals that he was easily confused and prone to speculation. First of all, he gets himself all turned around and mistakenly says there was a wound in the left temple. He says nothing of a wound on the back of the head or behind the ear. Second of all, he states, without offering any supporting evidence, that the throat wound was a fragment wound.

On March 21, 1964, Dr. McClelland testified before the Warren Commission. He said: “As I took the position at the head of the table that l have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered ... the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out.”

Since Kennedy was by all reports lying on his back, it is impossible to understand how McClelland could look down into a wound on the back of Kennedy’s head. It seems likely then that McClelland, as Clark, was confused by the rotation of Kennedy’s skull. Incidentally, McClelland, while insisting that the wound he saw was posterior, nevertheless defends the legitimacy of the autopsy photos. He explains that the back of the head photo depicts sagging scalp pulled over a large occipito-parietal wound. This assertion is utterly fantastic and is unsupported by every book on wound ballistics ever written. Scalp overlying explosive wounds does not sag, it tears. No such tears were noted on the back of Kennedy's head at autopsy.)

PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

ADMISSION NOTE

DATE AND HOUR Nov. 22, 1963 4:45 P.M. DOCTOR: BASHOUR

Statement Regarding Assassination of the President of the U.S.A., President Kennedy At 12:50 PM, we were called from the 1st floor of Parkland Hospital and told that President Kennedy was shot. Dr. D ?? and myself went to the emergency room of Parkland. Upon examination, the President had no pulsation, no heartbeat, no blood pressure. The oscilloscope showed a complete standstill. The president was declared dead at 12:55 P.M.

F. Bashour M.D.

Associate Professor of Cardiology

Southwestern Medical School Dallas, Texas.

(Note: there is not much to say about Dr. Bashour’s statement, but the next statement, holds the key.)

THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SOUTHWESTERN MEDICAL SCHOOL, DALLAS

November 22, 1963 1630

To: Mr. C. J. Price, Administrator Parkland Memorial Hospital

From: M. T. Jenkins, M.D., Professor and Chairman Department of Anesthesiology

Subject: Statement concerning resuscitative efforts for President John F. Kennedy

Upon receiving a stat alarm that this distinguished patient was being brought to the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital, I dispatched Doctors A. H. Giesecke and Jackie H. Hunt with an anesthesia machine and resuscitative equipment to the major surgical emergency room area, and I ran down the stairs. On my arrival in the emergency operating room at approximately 1230 I found that Doctors Carrico and/or Delaney had begun resuscitative efforts by introducing an orotracheal tube, connecting it for controlled ventilation to a Bennett intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus. Doctors Charles Baxter, Malcolm Perry, and Robert McClelland arrived at the same time and began a tracheostomy and started the insertion of a right chest tube, since there was also obvious tracheal and chest damage. Doctors Paul Peters and Kemp Clark arrived simultaneously and immediately thereafter assisted respectively with the insertion of the right chest tube and with manual closed chest cardiac compression to assure circulation.

For better control of artificial ventilation, I exchanged the intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus for an anesthesia machine and continued artificial ventilation. Doctors Gene Akin and A. H. Giesecke assisted with the respiratory problems incident to changing from the orotracheal tube to a tracheostomy tube and Doctors Hunt and Giesecke connected a cardioscope to determine cardiac activity.

During the progress of these activities, the emergency room cart was elevated at the feet in order to provide a Trendelenburg position, a venous cutdown was performed on the right saphenous vein, and additional fluids were begun in a vein in the left forearm while blood was ordered from the blood bank. All of these activities were completed by approximately 1245, at which time external cardiac massage was still being carried out effectively by Doctor Clark as judged by a palpable peripheral pulse. Despite these measures there was no electrocardiographic evidence of cardiac activity.

These described resuscitative activities were indicated as of first importance, and after they were carried out attention was turned to all other evidences of injury . There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound. There were also fragmented sections of brain on the drapes of the emergency room cart . With the institution of adequate cardiac compression, there was a great flow of blood from the cranial cavity, indicating that there was much vascular damage as well as brain tissue damage .

It is my personal feeling that all methods of resuscitation were instituted expeditiously and efficiently. However, this cranial and intracranial damage was of such magnitude as to cause the irreversible damage. President Kennedy was pronounced dead at 1300.

Sincerely, M. T. Jenkins, M.D .

[Jack White]

Pat fails to mention that some of the people are pointing to ENTRY wounds, and others to EXIT wounds.

There is nothing inconsistent with this.

Jack

[Pat Speer]

Pat fails to mention that some of the people are pointing to ENTRY wounds, and others to EXIT wounds.

There is nothing inconsistent with this.

Jack

Jack, no one in Dallas saw more than one head wound. The assumption of everyone was that the head wound was either both an entrance and an exit, or the exit of a bullet entering the throat. Everyone on my Who to Believe slide is pointing to where they remembered seeing a large head wound, with the exception of Kilduff, who was repeating what Burkley told him.

It turns out that 6.5mm ammunition frequently leaves tangential wounds of both entrance and exit. Dr. Clark thought Kennedy's wound was one such wound. My research, which at this point entails reading thousands of pages on wound ballistics, from dozens of authors, and inspecting hundreds of photos of gunshot victims, tells me he was right.

[Bernice Moore]

Pat : Quote :"Bernice, "Three Patients" was not written from original interviews. It was written by an author given access to the original statements of the Parkland doctors, which were by no means covered up. These statements were, in fact, printed with the Warren Report.

The "everyone who saw the head wound thought it was on the back of the head" argument is just not true. It is a conspiracy myth. Several people thought it was on the back of the head, but the photos used by Lifton and Groden were all taken many years later. More telling, by far, are the observations of people on 11-22."

Pat:

I have done studies within the W/C .......thank you....just the same.

Your first quote answers the question......"given access to the original statements".

Your second "The everyone who saw the head wound thought it was on the back of the head" argument is just not true..."It is a conspiracy myth."

I suppose we are to assume now that all are conspiracy myths...

Those within the photo, were giving their opinions as to what they saw...with their eyes..... some years later, but that is what they recalled...amazing

that so many blind people, regarded the same area as to where they saw the blow out wound....

Their opinion and it should always be kept in mind,that theirs more so than yours or anyones should be respected, as they were there, and we were not...

and should never be disregarded...and never so dismissively..

Personally each time I read a post stating the witnesses were wrong, I read obfuscation, some people seem to deliberately put aside that aspect that [b]"they were there, they saw..and all cannot be in error..".....

Whatever is your opinion, and though I respect your right to such......It seems someone should remind you that was theirs, in case if you have perhaps

forgotten, we have gone around the bush in the past........and I do recall it came to an agree to disagree......

IMO you follow the Gov.findings, and support those,....... I do not.....and no where will the twain ever meet...

But other than perhaps on occasion, posting such as I did for Antti's information, I have

not any inclinations to debate any of those that do appear to defend Gov findings....I have been there

and done that in the past ,many times......and now, imo, it does nothing but give them the opportunity to continue

to post such....

No offense Pat....Just MO....

....Thank you for your reply, and I wish you well ......

P.S and imo you know exactly what Jack was referring to in his post.....in reference to...exit and entrance wounds....

B......[/b]

Edited October 3, 2008 by Bernice Moore

[Pat Speer]

Bernice, to be clear, I am most definitely not defending the Gov's findings. They interpreted the large head wound to be an exit. My research indicates it was a tangential wound, both entrance and exit. This means that the entrance wound reported on the back of the head, whether it be high or low, came as the result of a second impact. Thus, TWO head wounds.

As far as the Parkland witnesses...I was quite reluctant to propose they were wrong. IF they saw an entrance on the front of the head, and an exit on the back of the head, and the Gov proposed they were wrong about both, I'd think their recollections to be proof of a conspiracy. But they did not. They described a wound looking exactly like the large head wound shown in the autopsy photos and Zapruder film, only a few inches further to the back. Several of them, after looking at the autopsy photos, deferred to the autopsy photos as authentic. Even then, though, I was reluctant to propose they'd been wrong.

The tipping point for me, was seeing footage of both Newman and Zapruder on TV, before anyone knew anything about from where the shots had been fired. They both pointed to the temple, when discussing the head wound, and not the back of the head. Malcolm Kilduff, in his press conference, also said the bullet impacted at this location.

It then occurred to me to me that one could not assume the head wound was on the back of the head, as proposed by the Parkland witnesses, and that it had somehow been changed before the autopsy photos were taken, or that the autopsy photos and Zapruder film had been faked, without simultaneously assuming that Newman and Zapruder were wrong, and wrong in such a way that their errors just COINCIDENTALLY supported the autopsy photos and Zapruder film. This made little sense.

The Parkland witnesses were right about the rough appearance of the wound, but were almost certainly wrong about its exact location. Four members of my immediate family--my mother, sister, brother, and sister-in-law, have spent a cumulative 120 years working in hospitals. They all agree its possible a medical team, working in an emergency situation, where no notes were taken, could incorrectly recall the exact location of a bullet wound surrounded by hair and scalp. And are not all that surprised that such a mistake was made.

[Jack White]

Basing a theory on the beliefs of four relatives who were not there is odd. There

is much better evidence (if it is all genuine) of the gunshot directions. For instance,

the beveled edge reported on the interior of the calvarium.

Jack

[Antti Hynonen]

(2) Robert B. Livingston, letter to Maynard Parker, editor of Newsweek (10th September, 1993)

I was Scientific Director of the National Institute for Mental Health and (concurrently) of the National Institute of Neurological Diseases and Blindness, at the time of the assassination. These two institutes are obviously relevant to interpretations of brain damage sustained by the president.

On the basis of November 22, 1963, broadcasts from Parkland Hospital, I felt obliged to call Commander James Humes, at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, who was about to perform the autopsy. Our telephone conversation was completed before the body arrived at Andrews AFB. I called to retail media reports from Parkland Hospital that there was a small wound in the front of his neck, just to the right of the trachea.

Humes said he hadn't been paying attention to the news, but was receptive to what I had to tell him. We had a cordial conversation about this. Based on my knowledge of medical and experimental analyses of bullet wounding, and personal experiences caring for numerous bullet and shrapnel wounds throughout the battle of Okinawa, I told him that a small wound, as described, would have to be a wound of entry. When a bullet exits from flesh, it violently blows out a lot of tissue, usually making a conspicuous cruciate opening with tissue protruding. A wound of entry, however, just punctures as it penetrates. So I stressed the need for him to probe that wound to trace its course fully and to find the location of the bullet or fragments. I especially emphasized that such a wound had to be an entry wound. And since the president was facing forward the whole time, that meant that there had to be a conspiracy. As we talked about that, he interrupted the conversation momentarily. He came back on the line to say, "I'm sorry. Dr. Livingston, but the FBI won't let me talk any longer." Thus, the conversation ended.

Two important subsequent events are noteworthy: Commander Humes did not dissect that wound, and when asked why not, in the Warren Commission hearings, he said that he didn't know about the small wound in the neck until the following day when he had a conversation with Dr. Perry at Parkland Hospital.

A further issue concerns reports of the appearance of cerebellar tissue in the occipital wound. This was first reported "live" as observations by an orderly, and by a nurse, both of whom were in the surgery where attempts to resuscitate the president were conducted prior to his death. I didn't give any credibility to those stories and dismissed them from my focus at the time, attributing what I thought must be mistaken identification of cerebellum to a likely lack of familiarity with neuroanatomy by two non-medically trained individuals. It would be easy to assume cerebellum in looking at macerated cerebral tissue protruding from a bloody wound. But since then, around six reputable physicians who saw the president at that time have testified that cerebellum was extruding from the wound at the back of his head. That is an important clue, indicating that something must have burst into the posterior fossa with sufficient force to uproot the cerebellum and blow a substantial hole through the heavy, covering, well-anchored, tentorium, which separates cerebellum from the main chamber of the skull.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKlivingston.htm

[Pat Speer]

Antti, Livingston has absolutely nothing to back up his story. Humes claimed he'd never talked to him. There's no record of Livingston's story for what--25 years after the assassination? Even worse, his story makes little sense. Humes, preparing for the autopsy of the President, took the call of a doctor he did not know? Humes. while under strict military control, told Livingston the FBI--who had no authority over Humes--wouldn't let him talk any longer? These assertions shouldn't pass any thinking person's smell test.

It's clear to me that Livingston, much as Joe O'Donnell, is a (NOTE: I originally used the word "fraud" here but this is unduly harsh) person whose memories faltered with time. Perhaps, as O'Donnell, he had a memory problem, and just told stories to anyone who'd listen. He could very well have believed his assertions. But really, give me a break... a doctor at a civilian hospital takes it upon himself to call a military hospital and inform the autopsy team scheduled to perform the President's autopsy of something DOZENS OF PEOPLE traveling with the president should have known, y'know, just in case these people were incredibly ill-informed. (Which, evidently, they were.) And he does this at a time that NO ONE KNOWS an autopsy is even going to be performed, let alone where it is going to be performed. And he actually gets through, and talks to the doctor heading the autopsy. And this doctor tells him that the FBI--who was only allowed in the hospital as a courtesy--won't let him talk! What's worse--he was calling to tell Humes of a supposed media report of a wound to the throat...at a time when most of the reports were simply saying Kennedy had been hit in the front, and many were still implying he'd been hit in the front...of the head.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Pat Speer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

My opinion of Pat Speer has never sunk lower. Bob Livingston was a world authority on the human brain. He founded the first department of neuroscience in the world at UCSD. His accomplishments were so great that, when he was appointed as the scientific director of the National Institute of Mental Health and of the National Institute of Neurological Diseases and Blindness, they had to create a new, higher, civil service rank since they had never had anyone of his degree of distinction. Anyone who would like to review his credentials should consult ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), which I am quite sure Speer, who would not have qualified to carry Bob's luggage, has never done. Livingston was a founding member of the first society to be awarded the Nobel Prize and served as the science advisor to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Bob Livingston taught at some of the most distinguished universities in the United States. He danced with Jackie at a state dinner and was the most exceptional American I have ever known.

Although Speer appears not to know it, descriptions of two wounds were widely broadcast on radio and television, namely: a shot to the throat and a shot to the right temple. (Speer does not understand the difference between entry and exit wounds!) Bob learned of the clean, neat wound to the throat during a taxi ride in New York. Having supervised an emergency medical hospital for injured Okinawans and Japanese prisoners of war during the Battle of Okinawa, he recognized that it had to be a wound of entry. (Speer probably also does not know that, during the Parkland Press Conference held at 3:15 PM in Dallas, Malcolm Perry had described the throat wound as an entry wound not once, not twice, but three times! The transcript was not made available to The Warren Commission but appears as an appendix to ASSASSINATION SCIENCE. Considering the importance of this collection of studies, it might be a good idea if Speer were to consult it and bring himself a bit more up-to-speed lest others conclude that he is a fraud!)

The National Institutes for Health are located across the street from Bethesda Hospital. Livingston deliberated about calling or not calling, but finally decided he should call. He identified himself to the Officer of the Deck, who put him through to Commander Humes. Humes told him he was not listening to reports on radio or television, but Bob explained to him that since, given the description of the wound, it had to be a wound of entry, if there was any evidence of shots fired from the rear, then there had to have been more than one gunman and therefore a conspiracy. He also emphasized to Humes that it was important to carefully dissect the neck for information that would lead to a calculation of the trajectory of the wound and its most probable firing location. To Bob's surprise, their call was interrupted by the FBI, which he found difficult to believe, since this was a conversation between physicians about conducting an autopsy on the body of the President of the United States. It always bothered him that that had happened.

Some lowlifes will stoop to anything to try to make themselves appear important. I am sorry, Pat, but nothing you can do will ever make you important. That you should attempt to disgrace the name of one of the most remarkable human beings the world has known simply discredits you. You have no idea who you are dealing with and no understanding of the significance of qualifications of the extraordinary kind that Bob Livingston possessed. At my suggestion, he visited the audio/video department at UCSD and recorded his experiences, which he had copied and distributed to a dozen or more reliable sources, just in case anything should happen to him. I am glad to say, nothing did. My final memory of Bob was taking him to Encinida for presentations by Noel Twyman, David Mantik, Gregory Burnham, and me. His hair was long and a bit unkempt when I picked him up in a Sebring convertible. He had a great time and I will never forget the wind blowing through his hair as we navigated the Interstate highway.

Antti, Livingston has absolutely nothing to back up his story. Humes claimed he'd never talked to him. There's no record of Livingston's story for what--25 years after the assassination? Even worse, his story makes little sense. Humes, preparing for the autopsy of the President, took the call of a doctor he did not know? Humes. while under strict military control, told Livingston the FBI--who had no authority over Humes--wouldn't let him talk any longer? These assertions shouldn't pass any thinking person's smell test.

It's clear to me that Livingston, much as Joe O'Donnell, is a fraud. Perhaps, as O'Donnell, he had a memory problem, and just told stories to anyone who'd listen. He could very well have believed his assertions. But really, give me a break... a doctor at a civilian hospital takes it upon himself to call a military hospital and inform the autopsy team scheduled to perform the President's autopsy of something DOZENS OF PEOPLE traveling with the president should have known, y'know, just in case these people were incredibly ill-informed. (Which, evidently, they were.) And he does this at a time that NO ONE KNOWS an autopsy is even going to be performed, let alone where it is going to be performed. And he actually gets through, and talks to the doctor heading the autopsy. And this doctor tells him that the FBI--who was only allowed in the hospital as a courtesy--won't let him talk! What's worse--he was calling to tell Humes of a supposed media report of a wound to the throat...at a time when most of the reports were simply saying Kennedy had been hit in the front, and many were still implying he'd been hit in the front...of the head.

Edited October 7, 2008 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Once again, Pat Speer doesn't know what he is talking about. Charles Crenshaw was the last physician to examine the president's wounds before he was wrapped in sheets and placed in the large, ceremonial, bronze casket. He even closed JFK's eyes, which is striking, since some of the purported autopsy photos show his eyes still open. I think someone with a track record like Speer's should not be taken seriously. "No one stuck around" is pure poppycock. This man appears to be a faker and a fraud.

It is not true that the Parkland doctors inspected Kennedy's wounds from many angles. He was already laying on a stretcher when they came in the room, and they left the room after his death was declared. He was never turned over during treatment. The only ones to see his wounds during the cleaning, if I recall, were two nurses and an orderly, none of whom made a written description of his wounds on 11-22.

Clint Hill covered Kennedy's head with his jacket before he was removed from the limousine. Nobody got a good look at his head wounds till Clark arrived in the ER minutes later. No one stuck around to look at it after his death was declared.

[Bernice Moore]

""My opinion of Pat Speer has never sunk lower. Bob Livingston was a world authority on the human brain. He founded the first department of neuroscience in the world at UCSD. His accomplishments were so great that, when he was appointed as the scientific director of the National Institute of Mental Health and of the National Institute of Neurological Diseases and Blindness, they had to create a new, higher, civil service rank since they had never had anyone of his degree of distinction. Anyone who would like to review his credentials should consult ASSASSINATION SCIENCE (1998), which I am quite sure Speer, who would not have qualified to carry Bob's luggage, has never done. Livingston was a founding member of the first society to be awarded the Nobel Prize and served as the science advisor to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Bob Livingston taught at some of the most distinguished universities in the United States. He danced with Jackie at a state dinner and was the most exceptional American I have ever known.""

""My final memory of Bob was taking him to Encinida for presentations by Noel Twyman, David Mantik, Gregory Burnham, and me. His hair was long and a bit unkempt when I picked him up in a Sebring convertible. He had a great time and I will never forget the wind blowing through his hair as we navigated the Interstate highway""

I believe this is Encinida.....Dr.Jim..and hopefully the names are correct....

Rear..Len Osinac....Karen Holt....Greg Burnham.......Front left..Noel Twyman..Correction.....Not Twyman...unknown.....Dr.Fetzer...Dr.R.Livingston.....

and sorry I do not know the ladies name...

B......

Edited October 9, 2008 by Bernice Moore

[David G. Healy]

Antti, Livingston has absolutely nothing to back up his story. Humes claimed he'd never talked to him. There's no record of Livingston's story for what--25 years after the assassination? Even worse, his story makes little sense. Humes, preparing for the autopsy of the President, took the call of a doctor he did not know? Humes. while under strict military control, told Livingston the FBI--who had no authority over Humes--wouldn't let him talk any longer? These assertions shouldn't pass any thinking person's smell test.

It's clear to me that Livingston, much as Joe O'Donnell, is a fraud. Perhaps, as O'Donnell, he had a memory problem, and just told stories to anyone who'd listen. He could very well have believed his assertions. But really, give me a break... a doctor at a civilian hospital takes it upon himself to call a military hospital and inform the autopsy team scheduled to perform the President's autopsy of something DOZENS OF PEOPLE traveling with the president should have known, y'know, just in case these people were incredibly ill-informed. (Which, evidently, they were.) And he does this at a time that NO ONE KNOWS an autopsy is even going to be performed, let alone where it is going to be performed. And he actually gets through, and talks to the doctor heading the autopsy. And this doctor tells him that the FBI--who was only allowed in the hospital as a courtesy--won't let him talk! What's worse--he was calling to tell Humes of a supposed media report of a wound to the throat...at a time when most of the reports were simply saying Kennedy had been hit in the front, and many were still implying he'd been hit in the front...of the head.

my-goodness, you really stepped in it this time, didn't you? Get your facts straight Pat!

[Antti Hynonen]

Why would Dr. Livingston fabricate such a realisticly seeming story? How would this benefit him in any way?

Seems rather unbelievable that someone like Livingston would do such a thing.

I have no reason to doubt his recollection regarding the occurrence of this phone call.

I don't think it is key that the "FBI" told Dr. Humes to get off the phone, it could have been any other authority or it could have been no one, that is, it might have just been something Humes told Livingston to get rid of him. What is key is that the bullet wound to the throat was not disected, traced or other wise examined in a sufficient capacity to determine all facts about it. That is after an expert Dr. called the man in charge of the autopsy asking him to probe that wound to trace its course fully and to find the location of the bullet or fragments.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Pat Speer]

Why would Dr. Livingston fabricate such a realisticly seeming story? How would this benefit him in any way?

Seems rather unbelievable that someone like Livingston would do such a thing.

I have no reason to doubt his recollection regarding the occurrence of this phone call.

I don't think it is key that the "FBI" told Dr. Humes to get off the phone, it could have been any other authority or it could have been no one, that is, it might have just been something Humes told Livingston to get rid of him. What is key is that the bullet wound to the throat was not disected, traced or other wise examined in a sufficient capacity to determine all facts about it. That is after an expert Dr. called the man in charge of the autopsy asking him to probe that wound to trace its course fully and to find the location of the bullet or fragments.

Antti, Livingston's story is a convenient one for conspiracy theorists. But it's extremely doubtful. Fetzer's response--where he argues based upon his affection and respect for Livingston, and not based on any evidence, is further proof of that. He might as well be saying that his grandfather told him he'd shot Hitler, and that his grandfather would never lie, never ever.

It's well known that elderly people often fill in the blanks of their memory with fantastic stories bearing only a minor relation to the truth. Perhaps Livingston tried to call Bethesda to offer his help, and was rebuffed. We'll probably never know the truth. But there's simply no reason to believe his story as later retold. There is no support for it, and it doesn't pass a reasonable person's smell test. There's a pretty good chance that the old lady now claiming to have been on a crowded grassy knoll also thinks she is telling the truth.

[Pat Speer]

Once again, Pat Speer doesn't know what he is talking about. Charles Crenshaw was the last physician to examine the president's wounds before he was wrapped in sheets and placed in the large, ceremonial, bronze casket. He even closed JFK's eyes, which is striking, since some of the purported autopsy photos show his eyes still open. I think someone with a track record like Speer's should not be taken seriously. "No one stuck around" is pure poppycock. This man appears to be a faker and a fraud.

It is not true that the Parkland doctors inspected Kennedy's wounds from many angles. He was already laying on a stretcher when they came in the room, and they left the room after his death was declared. He was never turned over during treatment. The only ones to see his wounds during the cleaning, if I recall, were two nurses and an orderly, none of whom made a written description of his wounds on 11-22.

Clint Hill covered Kennedy's head with his jacket before he was removed from the limousine. Nobody got a good look at his head wounds till Clark arrived in the ER minutes later. No one stuck around to look at it after his death was declared.

Crenshaw's story is not entirely credible either. Even so, it should be noted that his final "examination" of Kennedy's head wound, as described on page 84 of Trauma Room One, consisted of his turning down the sheet and looking at the wound while Kennedy was lying on his back. Aubrey Rike, one of the men tasked with lifting Kennedy into his coffin, would have been in or near the room at this time. I saw him speak in Dallas, and briefly spoke to him. He emphasized that he never saw Kennedy's head without the sheet wrapped around it. I also don't believe he has ever said anything about a young doctor sneaking back in to the room, with Jackie nearby, to get a final peek at the head wound. Crenshaw's story then has no support, and doesn't seem reasonable considering that, if he'd been caught sneaking back in to look at the wounds of the President, he could very well have been fired. I mean, they'd covered Kennedy's head for a reason--to hide it from the looky-loos--and Crenshaw was by no means the doctor tasked with properly describing the wound; that would have been Clark.

I am NOT, however, trying to imply Livingston or Crenshaw lied. People's memories are not that reliable when collected fresh, and are far less reliable after 25-30 years.