The Trouble with Conspiracy Theories

[Guest Tom Scully]

Responding to Len's question in his post below; my point is that maybe if we can link enough coincidences to the core group I named above...the Bushes, Macombers, Hookers, Byfields, Crowns, Devine, Demohrenschildt, a conspiracy that resulted in the deaths of JFK and possibly, RFK, too, the evidence of conspiracy won't be dismissed as a series of unconnected coincidences.

KISS ("keep it simple stupid")is best approach, your post was like John Nash's flow charts extended to War and Peace like length . If you are willing to take into account enough "degrees of separation" you can always find a few coincidences. Can you list the top 3 or 4 you think are most telling

How is it that the two Bushes are the only father and son US presidents?

1) They weren't

2) Other than Bush Jr and JQ Adams How many sons of presidents seriously pursued politics?

3) Why is this relevant?

Okay, Len,

I did overlook the Adamses. I hope we can agree that their accomplishment, father and son U.S. presidents, the father a "top ten" founder of a nation of 4 million residents, and the son elected president of a nation of less than ten million residents, is not a fair comparison to the political accomplishment of Bush father and son.

Can we agree that the competition and odds against the Bushes both becoming U.S. president, especially in a span of time of just 12 years between their wins, in a nation so much larger in 1988, vs. in 1797, were far greater than what the Adamses must have overcome to win their presidential terms?

In the my post at the link I referred you to,

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=174938

I botched the display of the link to this post:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=172932

...In the quote boxes displayed below, is information supporting the observations that Knights of Malta/Roman Catholic William HG Fitzgerald, in 1943, married into the family of Ernest, aka Ernst Petschek, the son of Ignaz, who, with his brother Julius, at the beginning of the 20th century, began to amass one of the largest fortunes in Europe. This fortune was protected by Bush family and Harriman partners Averill Harriman, Samuel Pryor, George Walker, and Prescott Bush, incorporators of front shell companies designed to hide the Petschek family ownership of Silesian coal mine assets, and to facilitate Frederick Flick's "aryanization" of these mines when the time came, in the late 1930's....

In keeping ti simple, if the investigations of the homicides of JFK and of RFK had been conducted as routine police investigations, I think the important questions would have been what they always are.:

Who stood to benefit the most; who benefited the most as a result of the deaths of the victims?

Who had strong grievances against the victims?

Who were the people closest to the victims, and or closest to any of those suspected of murdering the victims?

The first question was never really asked or investigated in the era of the homicides. Now we have the benefit of hindsight.

The answer seems to be that the greatest beneficiaries from the death of JFK and RFK was financially, and to an extent, politically, Henry Crown and his son, Lester. Politically, it was initially LBJ and more recently, GHW Bush and GW Bush.

Strongest combined grievances and perceived threat resulting from continued presidency of JFK and then election of RFK, are Henry Crown with his TFX contract hanging in the balance, and with his son, Lester, happening to be the spouse of Renee Schine, sister of G. David Schine, humiliated by RFK as the alleged homosexual companion of Roy Cohn. David Schine had been general manager of the Ambassador hotel in LA, and his family owned it at the time RFK was killed there.

Lester Crown was Obama's earliest and at the time, principle financial supporter. Henry Crown hired Patrick Hoy away from the Byfield Hotel organization, where Hoy was president. Byfield's mother leased Glen Ora to JFK.

Oswald was principle JFK shooting suspect. His closest friend in Dallas had been George DeMohrenschilldt. In 1960, Oswald was known to William B. Macomber Jr., foirmer CIA man at the State Dept., best man in the wedding of Nancy Bush and of CIA's Thomas J. Devine, a Bush business partner.

GHW Bush was linked to DeMohrenschildt through his school roommate, Edward Gordon Hooker, step-nephew of George DeMohrenschildt and his business partner. Bush escorted Hooker's daughter down the aisle in her 1973 wedding to Ames Braga.

Bush phoned a tip to the FBI on Nov. 22 of a Bush fabricated JFK shooting suspect, a dead end "lead." Hoover issued a memo stating that "George Bush of the CIA" had been briefed as to the status of the investigation into the murder of JFK.

Bush claimed that the FBI had actually briefed a G-5 level, temporary CIA employee of six months seniority at CIA, an aerial surveillance photograph interpreter of the same name. That George Bush later swore in an affadavit that he had never been contacted by the FBI for any briefing.

To my knowledge, none of the above has ever been officially investigated, save a cursory examination of Edward Hooker's obvious relationship with DeMohrenschildt.

[David Andrews]

"Can we agree that the competition and odds against the Bushes both becoming U.S. president, especially in a span of time of just 12 years between their wins, in a nation so much larger in 1988, vs. in 1797, were far greater than what the Adamses must have overcome to win their presidential terms?"

Not to be a contrary buttinsky, but the US in the time of the first Adams would have been profoundly concerned with issues of nepotism, dynasty, and influence - sadly, more so than in the age of corporate deregulation, where such thing are SOP, and the electorate is uninterested. It is an aftereffect of the business model of government and the long extraction of the teeth of the press.

The larger issue in the second Adams' 1824 election, though, was the emergence of the trans-Mississippi West as a political force and a ground for rivalry. The highly-connected House Speaker Henry Clay of Kentucky was alleged by supporters of the charismatic Andrew Jackson of Tennessee to have offered to swing the contested electoral vote in the Congress in Adams' favor, for which he was supposedly repaid by Adams with the Secretary of State post. So irrupting territorial concerns of an expanding republic provided new resentments that superseded dynasticism.

And Tom is accurate in the end. The 1824 competition outstripped the 1800 Jefferson-Burr fracas, the nation's nearest touchstone of corrupt bargaining. But because the country was decisively larger in 1824 than in 1797, dynasty became a sidebar issue, though the senior Adams lived until 1826.

Edited November 25, 2009 by David Andrews

[Len Colby]

Okay, Len,

I did overlook the Adamses. I hope we can agree that their accomplishment, father and son U.S. presidents, the father a "top ten" founder of a nation of 4 million residents, and the son elected president of a nation of less than ten million residents, is not a fair comparison to the political accomplishment of Bush father and son.

Can we agree that the competition and odds against the Bushes both becoming U.S. president, especially in a span of time of just 12 years between their wins, in a nation so much larger in 1988, vs. in 1797, were far greater than what the Adamses must have overcome to win their presidential terms?

One could argue that JQ getting elected as a member of the party that had opposed his father decreased his odds. Whatever how exactly is Bush Jr. getting “elected” in 2000 relevant to the JFK assassination 37 years earlier? As the reelected governor of the 2nd biggest and 2nd most populous state he would have been a leading contender for the GOP nomination even without being the son of an ex-president. AFAIK he was the first son of an ex-president ever elected governor or senator and the first to seek the presidency. The mystery is how he got elected governor in the 1st place, if you can show that the people responsible for that were tied to the assassination you MIGHT have something.

In keeping ti simple, if the investigations of the homicides of JFK and of RFK had been conducted as routine police investigations, I think the important questions would have been what they always are.:

Who stood to benefit the most; who benefited the most as a result of the deaths of the victims?

Who had strong grievances against the victims?

Who were the people closest to the victims, and or closest to any of those suspected of murdering the victims?

The first question was never really asked or investigated in the era of the homicides. Now we have the benefit of hindsight.

The answer seems to be that the greatest beneficiaries from the death of JFK and RFK was financially, and to an extent, politically, Henry Crown and his son, Lester. Politically, it was initially LBJ and more recently, GHW Bush and GW Bush.

How exactly did the Bushes benefit “from the death of JFK and RFK”?

Strongest combined grievances and perceived threat resulting from continued presidency of JFK and then election of RFK, are Henry Crown with his TFX contract hanging in the balance,

Do you have evidence JFK would have taken the THX (F-111) contract away from Crown’s company if he had lived?

…and with his son, Lester, happening to be the spouse of Renee Schine, sister of G. David Schine, humiliated by RFK as the alleged homosexual companion of Roy Cohn.

When exactly did this supposedly happen, when both were working for Cohn and McCarthy? The Kennedy’s never broke with McCarthy, unlike many other Democratic senators JFK never condemned him. Do you think the Crowns would have killed RFK over a supposed humiliation of their son/brother-in-law?

David Schine had been general manager of the Ambassador hotel in LA, and his family owned it at the time RFK was killed there.

I was able to confirm they owned it what evidence do you have he was the manager?

Lester Crown was Obama's earliest and at the time, principle financial supporter. Henry Crown hired Patrick Hoy away from the Byfield Hotel organization, where Hoy was president. Byfield's mother leased Glen Ora to JFK.

Unless you can indicate its relevance and interesting footnote at best lets see the principle investor in a defense contractor involved in a scandal when JFK was president supposedly hired someone who previously worked for the son of the woman who rented and estate to JFK.

Oswald was principle JFK shooting suspect. His closest friend in Dallas had been George DeMohrenschilldt. In 1960, Oswald was known to William B. Macomber Jr., foirmer CIA man at the State Dept., best man in the wedding of Nancy Bush and of CIA's Thomas J. Devine, a Bush business partner.

Citation? relevance?

GHW Bush was linked to DeMohrenschildt through his school roommate, Edward Gordon Hooker, step-nephew of George DeMohrenschildt and his business partner.

Citation? relevance?

Bush phoned a tip to the FBI on Nov. 22 of a Bush fabricated JFK shooting suspect, a dead end "lead." Hoover issued a memo stating that "George Bush of the CIA" had been briefed as to the status of the investigation into the murder of JFK.

Bush claimed that the FBI had actually briefed a G-5 level, temporary CIA employee of six months seniority at CIA, an aerial surveillance photograph interpreter of the same name. That George Bush later swore in an affadavit that he had never been contacted by the FBI for any briefing.

Actually it was the CIA not Bush who said it was the other guy. I’ve never seen the claim he was an “an aerial surveillance photograph interpreter” or that he was temporary. In his affidavit he admitted that he was the “junior watch officer… on duty at the time of the John F . Kennedy assassination” a rather amazing 'coincidence' don’t you think? One, George Bush was on watch at CIA HQ when JFK was assassinated the other was in Texas and has no demonstrable ties to the agency till 1976, who was more likely to have received a routine communication?

The other person informed was “Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency.” Do you think Edwards was in Texas or DC? If he was from the Army, Marines or Air Force is was O-3 level not that different from G-5. In 2008 g-5’s made $ 31,751 – $41271, according to one site entry level workers at the CIA start at G-5,step 6 ($37,039).In 2009 O-3’s were making $42,483 - $59,385. Who says he was G-5 anyway?

http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/html/dcb.asp

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money_basic_pay.jsp

http://www.majorsexplored.com/criminaljust...m?ID=-181399207

[Guest Tom Scully]

C'mon Len,

I've been over all of this enough, I could do it in my sleep, but it is time consuming, and I suspect you are feigning ignoracnce, hence your lengthy set of question....aren't you the same guy who took the time to search for background on the phantom "Major Van Quill"? I saw what you attempted in your long duel with Greg Parker on an "off" topic on this forum. Answer some of your own questions in this discussion with me. Either you'll be seized by your own curiousity, as you demonstrated with "Van Quill", or....you won't....but I can predict how this will go down....it you cannot challenge my supporting citations, you'll just continue to attempt to minimize the "proof" I supply, and you'll ask more questions.

For instance, you asked for support for the premise that William B. Macomber inquired about Oswald and other defectors in 1960, I posted the display of the relevant document, three of my posts back, on this very thread. It is in the large image....(read the hand written comment on the image), along with plenty of supporting descriptionL

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=174887

....and, you show here that you prefer to split hairs, vs. being a curious participant in a substantative discussion, or in a debate over these matters:

....Actually it was the CIA not Bush who said it was the other guy.,,,

You're right, technically, Len. Bush only denied pre-mid 70's involvement in the CIA through

his spokesperson, and he certainly had no hand, in the latter stages of his 1988 presidential campaign, as a former DCI, in getting the CIA to break the "we will not confirm or deny, policy", it

had first stated, when asked about the matter of Bush's prior CIA status....but how does that

change the points I've made, Len? How does your observation that it was the CIA "who said it was the other guy," matter in the least, when taken in fairly, as part of the whole scenario?

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/11/us/63-fb...nce-agency.html

'63 F.B.I. Memo Ties Bush to Intelligence Agency

AP

Published: Monday, July 11, 1988

Vice President George Bush may have worked for the Central Intelligence Agency in 1963, more than a decade before becoming its Director, according to a magazine article that cites a recently discovered Federal Bureau of Investigation memorandum.

Mr. Bush denied the report through a spokesman.

The Nation magazine, in its current issue, quotes a memo of Nov. 29, 1963, from J. Edgar Hoover, the bureau's Director at the time, to the State Department about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

In the memo, according to the magazine, Mr. Hoover stated that the bureau had briefed ''Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency'' on the reaction of Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination.

The magazine article, written by Joseph McBride, also quoted an unidentified source ''with close connections to the intelligence community'' as saying Mr. Bush ''started working for the agency in 1960 or 1961, using his oil business as a cover for clandestine activities.''

Stephen Hart, a spokesman for the Vice President, said that he had talked to Mr. Bush about the story and that the Vice President denied any involvement with the agency before President Ford named him its Director in 1975.

''He was an oilman in the early 1960s, and in 1963 he was running for the Senate,'' Mr. Hart said.

Bill Devine, a spokesman for the intelligence agency, declined to comment on the possibility that Mr. Bush, or someone else with that name, worked for the agency in the 1960s.

''It's our standard policy on allegations that people have worked for the C.I.A. or that sort of thing,'' Mr. Devine said. ''We neither confirm nor deny.''...

There is at least one author who wrote that William Macomber did not leave the CIA after two years,

and you may be aware that the State Dept. ceased public release of it's staff directory in the 70's, because it was an easy reference to spot the CIA members working under official cover.

Isn't it reasonable to say that this indicates that Macomber continued as Devine's and possibly Bush's CIA controller, or is it another in a long line of coincidences, in your opinion? Five years after the date of this document, Macomber, US Ambassador to Turkey, fresh from his emergency assignment in Haiti to work with Baby Doc to free the kidnapped US Ambassador there, Macomber was Devine's best man:

Here is an example of what I can provide in support, all available if you search this forum for info from my prior posts:

Conflict of interests on the Warren Commission? Albert Jenner questioned George Demohrneschildt under oath in 1964. He was Henry Crown's personal attorney

and he was representing The Material Services Division of General Dynamics Corp. and at that time, Crown's son, John was employed at Jenner's lawfirm:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=joh...;hl=en&um=1

John J. Crown, judge, philanthropist

- Chicago Sun-Times - NewsBank - Mar 6, 1997

John J. Crown, 67, a former Cook County Circuit Court judge and youngest son of ... In 1959, he joined the law firm of Jenner & Block. ... Ex-farmer, judge Crown remembered as 'wise,...

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.htm...789D95F448585F9

MISS RENEE SCHINE BECOMES A BRIDE; Married to Lester Crown of ... The marriage of Miss Renee Helene Schine, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J. Myer Schine of New York and Gloversville, N.Y., to Lester Crown, son of

Col. ...December 29, 1950

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/nation...86sci-aids.html

August 3, 1986

Roy Cohn, Aide to McCarthy and Fiery Lawyer, Dies at 59

....At times he said his chief persecutor was Robert Kennedy, his fellow staff counsel on the McCarthy committee, who later became Attorney General of the United States. Their mutual hatred had been so intense that at one point during the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954, they got into a hallway push-and-shove match that nearly turned into a fistfight.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/21/us/crash...ml?pagewanted=2

Crash Kills G. David Schine, 69, McCarthy-Era Figure

By LAWRENCE VAN GELDER

Published: Friday, June 21, 1996

...When he left the Army in 1955 after two years of service that had eventually led him to a military police unit in Anchorage and elevated him only to the rank of corporal, the 28-year-old Mr. Schine said he was finished with politics and investigations of communism. He said he would devote himself to the hotel business.

For a time he served as president of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, part of the $150 million coast-to-coast theater, hotel and real estate empire of his father, J. Myer Schine. After some of the properties had been sold, Mr. Schine continued to maintain ties with the remaining enterprises. He became involved in film making, achieving success in 1971 as the executive producer of the Oscar-winning thriller "The French Connection." He also produced records.

In 1977, he and Mr. Cohn, maintaining that they had been defamed by a television movie about Senator McCarthy called "Tailgunner Joe," sued Universal Studios and NBC for $40 million. A New York appellate court ruled that they had no case....

http://books.google.com/books?q=kennedy+Co...nG=Search+Books

Robert Kennedy: His Life‎ - Page 65

Evan Thomas - Biography & Autobiography - 2002 - 512 pages

He called Kennedy a "rich bitch" and gave him menial work. When Cohn and his

fellow investigator and love object, David Schine, took a much-ridiculed ...

...Sitting behind Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson of Washington, Kennedy fed questions to the senators designed to embarass Cohn about a grandoise

anti-communist plan of action written up by his friend David Schine. Cohn grew angrier and angrier as he watched Kennedy snickering and laughing while

Senator Jackson picked apart the "plan."....The conversation rapidly deteriorated, "Do you want to figt here?" Cohn demanded. He started to swing at Kennedy,

but aides pulled them apart.

Robert Kennedy wrote the minority report that stated:

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=S...nG=Search+Books

Robert Kennedy and His Times‎ - Page 113

Arthur Meier Schlesinger - Biography & Autobiography - 2002 - 1066 pages

On June 11, Jackson was interrogating McCarthy about an anti-Communist plan ...

case "Senator McCarthy and Mr. Cohn merit severe criticism," that McCarthy ...

Limited preview - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

McCarthy

McCarthy‎ - Page 213

Roy M. Cohn - Biography & Autobiography - 1968 - 292 pages

Thus: "For these inexcusable actions, Senator McCarthy and Mr. Cohn merit severe

criticism on the ground that they had sought preferential treatment for

Affadavit of George William Bush: "Taken, subscribed and sworn to before me this 21st day

of September 1988 by George William Bush ."

http://www.aarclibrary.org/notices/Affidav...Bush_880921.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=%...nG=Search+Books

The immaculate deception: the Bush crime family exposed‎ - Page 36

Russell S. Bowen - Biography & Autobiography - 1991 - 210 pages

When McBride reached George William Bush,

who was 49 at that time and worked for the Social Security Administration,

Bush confirmed that he had worked for the CIA for about six months in 1 963-64 as a coast and landing-beach

analyst — not as a night watchman — in those years, with the rank of GS-5.

He definitely did not receive the FBI briefing in 1963, he stated.

When McBride read him the Hoover memo about the FBI briefing, his response was,

"Is that the other George Bush? "

While in the CIA, George William Bush said he had never received interagency briefings because he was "just a

lowly researcher and analyst" and worked only with documents and photographs.

He said he "knew neither one" of two people the memorandum mentions being

briefed, William T. Forsyth of the FBI and Capt. William Edwards of the DIA.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdevineTJ.htm

(1) Russ Baker, Real News Project (7th January, 2007)

....Previously disclosed FBI files include a memo from bureau director J. Edgar Hoover, noting that his organization had given a briefing to two men in the intelligence community on November 23, 1963, the day after the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The memo refers to one as “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency” and the other as “Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency.”

When Nation magazine contributor Joseph McBride first uncovered this document in 1988, George Herbert Walker Bush, then vice president and seeking the presidency, insisted through a spokesman that he was not the man mentioned in the memo: "I was in Houston, Texas, at the time and involved in the independent oil drilling business. And I was running for the Senate in late '63. I don't have any idea of what he's talking about." The spokesman added, "Must be another George Bush."

When McBride approached the CIA at that time, it initially invoked a policy of neither ing nor denying anyone's involvement with the agency. But it soon took the unusual step of asserting that the correct individual was a George William Bush, a one-time Virginia staffer whom the agency claimed it could no longer locate. But that George Bush, discovered in his office in the Social Security Administration by McBride, noted that he was a low-ranked coast and landing-beach analyst and that he most certainly never received such an FBI briefing.....

Two CIA officials named George Bush.

"However Bush denies his connections with the CIA. Yet a November 29, 1963 memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the State Department's Director of Intelligence and Research uncovered through the Freedom of Information Act describes a briefing given to "George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." The memo was written after Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated about his connections to the Cuban exile community and the CIA.[32]

http://whowhatwhy.com/2007/01/07/cia-bush-...or-oil-venture/

CIA Helped Bush Senior In Oil Venture

By Russ Baker on January 7, 2007

... I don’t have any idea of what he’s talking about.” The spokesman added, “Must be another George Bush.”

When McBride approached the CIA at that time, it initially invoked a policy of neither ing nor denying anyone’s involvement with the agency. But it soon took the unusual step of asserting that the correct individual was a George William Bush, a one-time Virginia staffer whom the agency claimed it could no longer locate. But that George Bush, discovered in his office in the Social Security Administration by McBride, noted that he was a low-ranked coast and landing-beach analyst and that he most certainly never received such an FBI briefing.....

Let me know if you want to see the supporting citations from my prior posts, about Kupcinet living in the Pump Room; Pat Hoy managing the Pump Room, Jack Ruby name dropping Kupcinet in Dallas, two of Ruby's lifelong friends Ira and Jimmy Colitz co-writing Kupcinet's daily newspaper column, Colitz testimony that they had seen Runy recently in their Chicago Clover Bar, located next door to Byfield's and Hoy's offices in the Hotel Sherman. Kupcinet's account in his book of Henry Crown hiring Patrick Hoy.....Hoy's well dcoujmented suggestions to business partners Henry Crown and Conrad Hilton to put Sidney Korshak on permanent retainer.....Korshaks identifying karyn Kupcinet's body for his close friend, Irv Kupcinet.

There's plenty there, Len, but you seem to only be curious about dismissing things, not looking into them with actual curiousity, ala your hunt for Major Van Quill. Henry Crown was concerned about losing the TFX contract, Fred Korth had just been fired, and Drew Pearson wrote that Crown had personally come to Capital Hill in 1963 to lobby for the preservation of TFX......look it up!

Edited November 27, 2009 by Tom Scully

[Len Colby]

C'mon Len,

I've been over all of this enough, I could do it in my sleep, but it is time consuming, and I suspect you are feigning ignoracnce, hence your lengthy set of question....aren't you the same guy who took the time to search for background on the phantom "Major Van Quill"? I saw what you attempted in your long duel with Greg Parker on an "off" topic on this forum. Answer some of your own questions in this discussion with me. Either you'll be seized by your own curiousity, as you demonstrated with "Van Quill", or....you won't....but I can predict how this will go down....it you cannot challenge my supporting citations, you'll just continue to attempt to minimize the "proof" I supply, and you'll ask more questions.

It’s up to you, not me, to support your claims

“For instance, you asked for support for the premise that William B. Macomber inquired about Oswald and other defectors in 1960, I posted the display of the relevant document, three of my posts back, on this very thread. It is in the large image....(read the hand written comment on the image), along with plenty of supporting description

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=174887”

OK so he received a document that referred to LHO without mentioning his name, what exactly does that prove?

“You're right, technically, Len. Bush only denied pre-mid 70's involvement in the CIA through his spokesperson, and he certainly had no hand, in the latter stages of his 1988 presidential campaign, as a former DCI, in getting the CIA to break the "we will not confirm or deny, policy", and it had first stated, when asked about the matter of Bush's prior CIA status”

He might well have pulled a few strings but it was an extraordinary situation. How many previous times has the person involved been one of the major party candidates for president? If the situation were reversed lets say a memo appeared in ‘92 referring to a ‘William Clinton’ or in 2004 to a ‘John Kerry’ etc wouldn’t you have expected the CIA to clarify who it was? That’s not to say they didn’t do this because they favored Bush.

“....but how does that change the points I've made, Len? How does your observation that it was the CIA "who said it was the other guy," matter in the least, when taken in fairly, as part of the whole scenario?”

Because FWIW its independent confirmation that it was probably someone else, the CIA would never lie of course!

“There is at least one author who wrote that William Macomber did not leave the CIA after two years…”

And there are several authors who say the moon landings were hoaxes, the pyramids were built by aliens, the Holocaust didn’t happen and that LHO did it all by himself. Which author said this and what evidence did they cite?

“Isn't it reasonable to say that this indicates that Macomber continued as Devine's and possibly Bush's CIA controller…?”

No.

“…or is it another in a long line of coincidences, in your opinion? Five years after the date of this document, Macomber, US Ambassador to Turkey, fresh from his emergency assignment in Haiti to work with Baby Doc to free the kidnapped US Ambassador there, Macomber was Devine's best man”

So Devine and Macomber were friends what does that prove?

“Here is an example of what I can provide in support, all available if you search this forum for info from my prior posts:

Conflict of interests on the Warren Commission? Albert Jenner questioned George Demohrneschildt under oath in 1964. He was Henry Crown's personal attorneyand he was representing The Material Services Division of General Dynamics Corp. and at that time, Crown's son, John was employed at Jenner's lawfirm:”

Can you show that his questioning of Demohrneschildt was somehow deficient or that JFK probably would have canceled the contract?

“Roy Cohn, Aide to McCarthy and Fiery Lawyer, Dies at 59

McCarthy committee, who later became Attorney General of the United States. Their mutual hatred had been so intense that at one point during the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954, they got into a hallway push-and-shove match that nearly turned into a fistfight.”

Your original claim was that “G. David Schine, [had been] humiliated by RFK as the alleged homosexual companion of Roy Cohn” this was the best you could come up with? I do stand corrected though - Robert Kennedy, unlike his brother, broke with McCarthy and Cohn. And yes Schine was “president of the Ambassador Hotel” for several years and probably was so when RFK was shot. But what’s the theory now, he facilitated the shooting because Kennedy had pissed off his friend 14 years earlier?

”Affadavit of George William Bush:"Taken, subscribed and sworn to before me this 21st day of September 1988 by George William Bush ."

http://www.aarclibrary.org/notices/Affidav...Bush_880921.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=%...nG=Search+Books

The immaculate deception: the Bush crime family exposed‎ - Page 36

Russell S. Bowen - Biography & Autobiography - 1991 - 210 pages

When McBride reached George William Bush, who was 49 at that time and worked for the Social Security Administration, Bush confirmed that he had worked for the CIA for about six months in 1 963-64 as a coast and landing-beach analyst — not as a night watchman — in those years, with the rank of GS-5.

He definitely did not receive the FBI briefing in 1963, he stated.

When McBride read him the Hoover memo about the FBI briefing, his response was, "Is that the other George Bush? " While in the CIA, George William Bush said he had never received interagency briefings because he was "just a lowly researcher and analyst" and worked only with documents and photographs.

He said he "knew neither one" of two people the memorandum mentions being

briefed, William T. Forsyth of the FBI and Capt. William Edwards of the DIA.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdevineTJ.htm

(1) Russ Baker, Real News Project (7th January, 2007)

....Previously disclosed FBI files include a memo from bureau director J. Edgar Hoover, noting that his organization had given a briefing to two men in the intelligence community on November 23, 1963, the day after the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The memo refers to one as “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency” and the other as “Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency.”

When Nation magazine contributor Joseph McBride first uncovered this document in 1988, George Herbert Walker Bush, then vice president and seeking the presidency, insisted through a spokesman that he was not the man mentioned in the memo: "I was in Houston, Texas, at the time and involved in the independent oil drilling business. And I was running for the Senate in late '63. I don't have any idea of what he's talking about." The spokesman added, "Must be another George Bush."

When McBride approached the CIA at that time, it initially invoked a policy of neither ing nor denying anyone's involvement with the agency. But it soon took the unusual step of asserting that the correct individual was a George William Bush, a one-time Virginia staffer whom the agency claimed it could no longer locate. But that George Bush, discovered in his office in the Social Security Administration by McBride, noted that he was a low-ranked coast and landing-beach analyst and that he most certainly never received such an FBI briefing.....

The terms coast, coastal, landing, beach, photograph, photographic, G-5, GS-5 etc (or any derivatives there of) do not appear in George William Bush’s affidavit nor in the August 2, Washington Times article (part of the same PDF file as the affidavit) which mentioned the Nation’s follow-up article. Contrary to the claim that he denied working “as a night watchman” at the agency he declared he was a “junior watch officer”

Given how closely the Bowen and Baker accounts are to each other I assume the latter got his info from the former or they both got their info from the same source. Indeed Baker cited Bowen 9 times in the article you cited. Bowen however was a convicted drug smuggler who falsely claimed to have been a retired brigadier general and was probably lying as well when he said he’d served in the OSS, not exactly a reputable source. His books were published by a (seemingly) now defunct personal imprint that also put out UFO titles and a book supposedly written by Judas Iscariot. Though attribution is a bit confused Baker seems to have been citing Rodney Stitch, author of a few obscure self-published books. According to Baker Bowen spoke to Stitch.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061118070047/....com/index.html

Baker strikes me as honest but too wedded to his hypothesis to be objective. I think Bowen or Stich (intentionally or not) conflated “junior watch officer” with “coast and landing-beach analyst” One wonders why Baker depended on the Bowen and/or Stitch instead of the actual Nation follow up article. Since you’re such an adept researcher perhaps you can dig it up, I couldn’t find it in their archives or anywhere else. Apparently it appeared in the July 23 or 30 1988 issue. You’re minutes away from the 40th and 42nd street libraries.

But what others say is essentially irrelevant he admitted in his affidavit he was a “junior watch officer…on duty at the time of the John F. Kennedy assassination”. His supposedly low rank proves nothing either currently newbie CIA agents (G-5, step 6) make a little more that Army 1st lieutenants, one rank below captain. The DIA agent briefed was a captain.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/notices/Affidav...Bush_880921.pdf

“Let me know if you want to see the supporting citations from my prior posts, about Kupcinet living in the Pump Room; Pat Hoy managing the Pump Room, Jack Ruby name dropping Kupcinet in Dallas, two of Ruby's lifelong friends Ira and Jimmy Colitz co-writing Kupcinet's daily newspaper column, Colitz testimony that they had seen Runy recently in their Chicago Clover Bar, located next door to Byfield's and Hoy's offices in the Hotel Sherman. Kupcinet's account in his book of Henry Crown hiring Patrick Hoy.....Hoy's well dcoujmented suggestions to business partners Henry Crown and Conrad Hilton to put Sidney Korshak on permanent retainer.....Korshaks identifying karyn Kupcinet's body for his close friend, Irv Kupcinet.”

And just how is any of the above relevant?

“There's plenty there, Len, but you seem to only be curious about dismissing things, not looking into them with actual curiousity, ala your hunt for Major Van Quill. Henry Crown was concerned about losing the TFX contract, Fred Korth had just been fired, and Drew Pearson wrote that Crown had personally come to Capital Hill in 1963 to lobby for the preservation of TFX......look it up!”

None of this really amounts to evidence JFK was going to cancel the contract which was also supported by Zuckert or McNamara both of whom had been appointed by JFK and both served under LBJ. Did anyone claim JFK or any of his advisers said to them the contract might be canceled, is there any documentation to that effect? All you have now is speculation based on speculation.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

I was partially wrong; the James McBride from the Nation did report that GWB told him “he was a coast and landing-beach analyst with the agency in those years, with the rank of GS-5” But this as previously pointed out is largely irrelevant because he admitted in his affidavit he was a “watch officer” on duty on the night of the assassination and his rank was equivalent to a 1st or 2nd lieutenant 1- 11/2 ranks below that of the person informed at the DIA (were interestingly enough he later worked). As for his credibility McBride discovered some sort of “discrepancy about his job as a social worker” but I was not able to figure out what it was from the excerpts I was able to coax out of Google News (see below). Interesting he was a student at the University of Hawaii as the same time as Obama’s parents.

I was able to piece together much of the text of the Nation article on Google News. Some of the snippets might not be in the correct order. Sometimes periods were inserted for no reason but sometimes they took the place of missing words. I added the words in brakets.

"Where was George? (George Bush's alleged involvement with Central Intelligence Agency in 1963)" (editorial)

The Nation

- Aug 13, 1988 James McBride

Where was George? The saga of Vice President George Bush's alleged involvement with the Central Intelligence Agency in 1963 grows curiouser and curiouser. In an article in The Nation of July 16/23 ["'George Bush,' C.I.A. Operative"], I reported the discovery of a memorandum from J. Edgar Hoover, then director of the F.B.I., saying that "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" had been briefed by the Bureau on November 23, 1963, about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

After the article appeared, the C.I.A. put out a story that the George Bush mentioned in the memorandum was not. Vice President George Herbert Walker Bush; he was George William Bush, who had worked for the agency in 1963-64. Although the agency claimed that his present whereabouts were unknown,

located George William Bush

[…]

As reported in my article, Vice President Bush, through spokesman Stephen Hart, denied that he was the man referred to in the memo: "I was in Houston, Texas, at the time and involved in the independent oil drilling business and I. running for the Senate late '63. don't have any idea. of what he's talking about.” Hart added, "Must be another George Bush." When I first asked the C.I.A about Hart's theory, it invoked its policy of neither confirming nor denying anyone's involvement with the agency. But after the story received wide coverage in the media, the C.I.A. evidently changed its mind. On July 19, agency spokeswoman Sharron Basso told the Associated Press that the Hoover memo "apparently" referred to George William Bush, who had worked for the agency in 1963 on the night watch at C.I.A. headquarters, which "would have been the appropriate place to have received such an F.B.I. report. She said this George Bush left the C.I.A. in 1964 to work for the Defense Intelligence Agency. Why did the agency break with its longstanding policy of ” Another C.I.A. official told the. “We put a lot. of. effort into this.” In fact, the latest C.I.A. release seems less a clarification than a strategic obfuscation. Hart of the Vice President's office put out the same data to Sarah Perl of The Nation. Both Perl and I called the Defense Intelligence Agency, and a spokesman confirmed that George William Bush had worked there between February 1964 and July 1965, performing the same duties that he had with the C.I.A.,

[…]

Although the agency claimed that his present whereabouts were unknown, I located George William Bush. He told me he was a coast and landing-beach analyst with the agency in. those years, with the rank. of. GS-5, but that he definitely did not receive the F.B.I. briefing.

[…]

[con]firm that George William Bush lived at that address while working as [a] trainee social worker. several months in. 1963. The registrar's office of the University of Hawaii confirmed that he attended classes there from the fall of 1959 through the summer of 1961, graduating with a. B.A.. in history on September 1, 1961. The age he gave me checked out as well: According to school records, he was born on May 18, 1939, in White Plains, New York. In the Alice in wonderland world of intelligence there is always the possibility that people are not who they say are. And there is that discrepancy about his job as a social. worker, for which there could be a perfectly innocent explanation [at] my request, Victor Navasky, editor of [the Nation] called Bush again and had him repeat his story about his work with the C.I.A. in 1963-64 and his statement that he was not the man of the F.B.I.

[…]

checking further? And where. was. Vice President George. Herbert Walker Bush on November 23, 1963? If Herbert Walker Bush on November 23, 1963? If he…

[...]

We've been "reading the lips" of George Bush for months, and I feel like an illiterate...disgustingly dirty campaigning, there is a real George Bush that we won't learn about until after...predicting that he will triumph. The George Bush who sees the Oval Office within his...

Edited November 29, 2009 by Len Colby