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Jim Marrs interviews Doug Horne


Douglas Caddy
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And I entirely agree with your last post, Peter. One wishes that the ARRB connection would carry the book into the mainstream press, though.

I suppose Whitley Streiber is about as good as Horne would get from the History Channel: sandwiched in between Nostradamus and the pyramids.

As a subscriber to unknowncountry.com, I listened to the second interview of Doug Horne, which was conducted by Whitley Strieber. It was riveting. Horne added new information to that he had disclosed in Jim Marr’s interview of him. He made the following assertions:

1) Vice President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination. He termed them “necessary enablers.” Their task was to oversee the cover-up following the murder in Dallas. The cover-up began within minutes of JFK’s death.

2) Both LBJ and Hoover were facing extinction in public life at the time of the assassination. LBJ was threatened by the Billie Sol Estes, TFX and Bobby Baker scandals. JFK was going to force Hoover to retire. LBJ and Hoover were agreeable to anything that would keep them in power.

3) Six bullets were fired in carrying out the assassination.

4) The assassination conspiracy was broad and included the Pentagon, CIA and national security establishment. Their goal was to make certain no thaw would occur in the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. JFK had taken steps that threatened their goal. He had to be eliminated.

5) There was a “victory” party at Clint Murchison’s mansion in Fort Worth the night before the assassination. Both LBJ and Hoover were present. Madeline Brown’s statement as to what LBJ told her at the party is accurate.

Strieber, on his part, stressed that the missing manuscript that Dorothy Kilgallen was reading just prior to her death and which she entrusted to her assistant who also died mysteriously probably contained the story of what had actually happened. Strieber knew John Connally and heard him in the months following the assassination declare that “bullets were flying all over the place inside the limousine.”

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As a subscriber to unknowncountry.com, I listened to the second interview of Doug Horne, which was conducted by Whitley Strieber. It was riveting. Horne added new information to that he had disclosed in Jim Marr’s interview of him. He made the following assertions:

1) Vice President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination. He termed them “necessary enablers.” Their task was to oversee the cover-up following the murder in Dallas. The cover-up began within minutes of JFK’s death.

Which cover-up?

There were two cover-ups pushed hard the afternoon of 11/22 -- Oswald as a lone

nut, and Oswald as an agent of Fidel Castro.

The cover-up LBJ and Hoover were initially tasked to "oversee" was not the

cover-up that prevailed.

Around 4 pm 11/22 Hoover tried to push the Oswald-connected-to-Cuba angle with

Bobby Kennedy and got no where (see David Talbot's Brothers pg 10.)

CIA-connected gangsters Richard Cain, Frank Sturgis, John Martino and others

immediately began to push the Oswald-as-Castro-agent line on 11/22 (see

Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 13).

Dallas assistant DA William Alexander initially charged Oswald with murder "in furtherance

of an international communist conspiracy [to] assassinate President John F. Kennedy."

Someone Would Have Talked pg 401:

At 1:15 PM on November 22, when the President was known to be dead, [LBJ press aide]

Malcolm Kilduff approached Johnson about making a statement. Johnson's response was:

"No. Wait. We don't know whether it's a communist conspiracy or not."

But while LBJ was still on Air Force One on the return flight from Dallas, McGeorge Bundy

informed the new President that the lone assassin was in custody (see Vincent Salandria's

"The Tale Told By Two Tapes" http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4186 ).

The Commies-didn't-do-it line was enforced by blueblood capo di tutti capi W. Averell Harriman,

who barely gave LBJ time to take off his coat at the White House before barging in and telling

the new President what's what:

Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright

and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the

assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey

Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an

experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the

unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them

believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

Like David Lifton, Doug Horne seems to think that the killers of JFK plotted

the crime in such a manner as to set Oswald up as a lone assassin.

The historical record indicates something else -- that Oswald was set up as

an agent of Castro, and thus the crime was designed to appear as a

conspiracy.

SWHT pg. 311-12:

Among the difficulties in understanding the Kennedy conspiracy, perhaps

the most challenging is reconciling the many elements that appear to be

contradictory. This has been made even more difficult for those who have

viewed the "cover-up" as an extension of the conspiracy. That difficulty

disappears if we first view the conspiracy to frame Oswald as a Castro (or

both Cuban and Soviet associated) conspirator, a plan that became totally

unraveled when Oswald was taken into custody. And second, we see that

the so-called "cover-up" was an independent, largely unplanned and highly

reactive effort to ensure that a Lee Harvey Oswald would [take] the fall all

by himself -- as a lone nut.

* The plot was to show the US President being killed by a Castro sponsored

conspiracy.

* The plotters were unable to execute their full plan due to Oswald's capture.

* Due to Oswald's role as an intelligence dangle and his contact with Kostikov,

the initial appearance was still that Oswald might have been acting as a

Communist dupe.

* Both the FBI and the CIA were aware of the Kostikov implications; when,

how, and if they shared this information with the new President is unclear.

* Lyndon Johnson personally led the official cover-up to eliminate any

public suggestion of conspiracy while leveraging confidential information

and the threat of war to make the cover-up work.

* The "lone nut" was a creation of the official cover-up, not of the Kennedy

plot.

* The plotters follow-on efforts to maintain conspiracy were overwhelmed

by Johnson.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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As a subscriber to unknowncountry.com, I listened to the second interview of Doug Horne, which was conducted by Whitley Strieber. It was riveting. Horne added new information to that he had disclosed in Jim Marr's interview of him. He made the following assertions:

1) Vice President Lyndon Johnson and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had foreknowledge of JFK's assassination. He termed them "necessary enablers." Their task was to oversee the cover-up following the murder in Dallas. The cover-up began within minutes of JFK's death.

Which cover-up?

There were two cover-ups pushed hard the afternoon of 11/22 -- Oswald as a lone

nut, and Oswald as an agent of Fidel Castro.

The cover-up LBJ and Hoover were initially tasked to "oversee" was not the

cover-up that prevailed.

Around 4 pm 11/22 Hoover tried to push the Oswald-connected-to-Cuba angle with

Bobby Kennedy and got no where (see David Talbot's Brothers pg 10.)

CIA-connected gangsters Richard Cain, Frank Sturgis, John Martino and others

immediately began to push the Oswald-as-Castro-agent line on 11/22 (see

Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 13).

Dallas assistant DA William Alexander initially charged Oswald with murder "in furtherance

of an international communist conspiracy [to] assassinate President John F. Kennedy."

Someone Would Have Talked pg 401:

At 1:15 PM on November 22, when the President was known to be dead, [LBJ press aide]

Malcolm Kilduff approached Johnson about making a statement. Johnson's response was:

"No. Wait. We don't know whether it's a communist conspiracy or not."

But while LBJ was still on Air Force One on the return flight from Dallas, McGeorge Bundy

informed the new President that the lone assassin was in custody (see Vincent Salandria's

"The Tale Told By Two Tapes" http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4186 ).

The Commies-didn't-do-it line was enforced by blueblood capo di tutti capi W. Averell Harriman,

who barely gave LBJ time to take off his coat at the White House before barging in and telling

the new President what's what:

Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright

and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the

assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey

Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an

experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the

unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them

believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

Like David Lifton, Doug Horne seems to think that the killers of JFK plotted

the crime in such a manner as to set Oswald up as a lone assassin.

The historical record indicates something else -- that Oswald was set up as

an agent of Castro, and thus the crime was designed to appear as a

conspiracy.

SWHT pg. 311-12:

Among the difficulties in understanding the Kennedy conspiracy, perhaps

the most challenging is reconciling the many elements that appear to be

contradictory. This has been made even more difficult for those who have

viewed the "cover-up" as an extension of the conspiracy. That difficulty

disappears if we first view the conspiracy to frame Oswald as a Castro (or

both Cuban and Soviet associated) conspirator, a plan that became totally

unraveled when Oswald was taken into custody. And second, we see that

the so-called "cover-up" was an independent, largely unplanned and highly

reactive effort to ensure that a Lee Harvey Oswald would [take] the fall all

by himself -- as a lone nut.

* The plot was to show the US President being killed by a Castro sponsored

conspiracy.

* The plotters were unable to execute their full plan due to Oswald's capture.

* Due to Oswald's role as an intelligence dangle and his contact with Kostikov,

the initial appearance was still that Oswald might have been acting as a

Communist dupe.

* Both the FBI and the CIA were aware of the Kostikov implications; when,

how, and if they shared this information with the new President is unclear.

* Lyndon Johnson personally led the official cover-up to eliminate any

public suggestion of conspiracy while leveraging confidential information

and the threat of war to make the cover-up work.

* The "lone nut" was a creation of the official cover-up, not of the Kennedy

plot.

* The plotters follow-on efforts to maintain conspiracy were overwhelmed

by Johnson.

Cliff makes a very strong point. The original assassins shooting from the front and the back and setting up Oswald as the Cuban-Commie Patsy were over ruled and at some point - early in the proceedings - it was decided to go with the single assassin - Oswald the Lone-Nut scenario and force feed that down our throats, regardless of what the real evidence indicated.

At what point was that decision made and who made it?

It appears that it was made in the White House situation room where McGeorge Bundy told LBJ aboard AF1 on the return flight that Oswald did it and there was no conspiracy.

Then LBJ pulled the double-entendra by saying that if they investigated and found a foreign conspiracy it would lead to WWIII, so they forced those who could have investigated the truth - to go with the Lone Nut Cover Story.

Peter Dale Scott discusses this and refers to Phase One (Cuban Commie Conspiracy) and Phase Two (Oswald Lone Nut) scenario in his works.

BK

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Cliff makes a very strong point. The original assassins shooting from the front and the back and setting up Oswald as the Cuban-Commie Patsy were over ruled and at some point - early in the proceedings - it was decided to go with the single assassin - Oswald the Lone-Nut scenario and force feed that down our throats, regardless of what the real evidence indicated.

At what point was that decision made and who made it?

I'd bet the farm on Harriman.

As soon as Oswald was arrested, Harriman (Skull and Bones 1913) pulled the plug on

the commies-did-it scenario and ordered Bundy (Skull and Bones 1940) to inform LBJ

of the "official" decision. Or so I'd reasonably speculate.

Who else had the power to curtail suspicions of Russian complicity, and make the

"lone assassin" myth stick?

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Horne on Marrs

Read it, quote it, cite it.

Many thanks to Jerry Ellis for taking the time to type out the transcript.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Jim Marrs Interviews Doug Horne

http://www.unknowncountry.com/media/?cur=485

DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber

February 20, 2010 Kennedy Assassination

JFK Assassination researcher Jim Marrs interviewing Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board - in operation from 1994 –1998

JM: = Jim Marrs

DH: = Doug Horne

[ 00:00 - 00:32 – announcer lead in...]

00:32:

JM: Howdy, I'm your host today here on Dreamland, on a very special occasion because today we're going to hear from Doug Horne. Doug was the chief Military analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board, and to just set the stage, let me explain that in the wake of the Kennedy Assassination, of course, within a week the new President, Lyndon Johnson hand picked a committee headed by Chief Justice Earl Warren and called the Warren Commission - prominent people on there such as John J. McCloy, Allan Dulles, who I found particularly interesting since Kennedy had fired Dulles from his position of CIA director in the wake of the failed Bay of Pigs invasion and Gerald Ford, our only unelected President and some others - and they concluded after about nine months that the assassination was the work of Lee Harvey Oswald who acted alone.

This was called into question almost immediately and a few years later we had the Jim Garrison investigation in New Orleans and the jury who was polled afterwards, unanimously said that Garrison had convinced them that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, but they could not bring themselves to believe beyond a resonable shadow of doubt that Clay Shaw was part of it, so they found him not guilty. But this raised even more questions particulary with some of the witnesses and information that came out in the Garrison trial. So then in the mid 70's Congress founded the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and they went through a lot of turmoil, changed leadership, and Blakey, the new Chief Council started off by saying they weren't going to consider any new evidence. Anything new they didn't want to hear about it, but they would re-examine some of the old evidence, well that forced them into considering the Dallas Police radio tape which according to two separate sets of acoustical scientists showed clearly that there had been shots not only from the School Book Depository but from the infamous Grassy Knoll.

But, the House Committee said well we're out of funds, we're out of business, and they encouraged the Justice Department to continue their investigation. This was not done, in fact all the Justice Department did was convene a handpicked committee of National Science Academy people who tried to call into question the Dallas Police tapes. A few years later, in a peer reviewed paper in England they called into question the conclusions of the National Academy of Science Committee. So the whole thing has been in constroversy and turmoil ever since. And finally, in the early 90's we had the Oliver Stone film "JFK" which was based on Jim Garrison's book, and my book "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy". And in the wake of the controversy that stirred up - Congress then named the Assassination Records Review Board.

And this was a group of citizens who were tasked to go into government files and find anything that pertained to the Kennedy Assassination Unfortunately, they were also instructed NOT to do anything with it, don't make any conclusions, don't present any of their findings or conclusions to the public, just put all the stuff in the National Archives and maybe twenty or thirty years later some diligent researcher might actually find something.

Well Doug Horne is the man. He is not only a diligent researcher, he was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board which put him right in the thick of what they were finding out about the Kennedy autopsy, which of course was done at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

And he even had opportunity to speak with and interview some of the people involved in the autopsy, and he was also privy to the examination of one of the most critical pieces of information – evidence – the famous Zapruder film taken by Abraham Zapruder.

So Doug, I apologize for that long-winded introduction, but now that we've laid the groundwork, tell us what you found in your work for the Assassination Records Review Board.

DH: Well, thanks Jim, it's a pleasure to be here, and don't apologize, the case IS a mess and it's been made into a mess by all those investigating bodies, so –

What I found Jim, was that, and these are my conclusions, you know, after working for the Review Board for the last three years of it's four year lifespan and my conclusions after researching and writing this book for thirteen years, this book "Inside the Assassination Records Review Board", available on Amazon.com. It's my conclusion that the reason the case has never come together like a normal homicide case is because there's massive fraud in the evidence. And, it's a pretty strong statement to make, but it's backed up in my book by overwhelming evidence, of not only fraud in the evidence. But what that means is a massive cover up of the medical evidence by the U.S. Government. And, specifically a coverup of the fact that the President was killed by a crossfire and that evidence of shots from the front was surpressed and only evidence of shots from the rear was admitted into evidence. So the listeners may be wondering – well, what do you mean by fraud in the evidence – and to summarize very very briefly, without getting inside baseball too much – there are three skull x-rays of the President, and those three are not originals in the national archives, they are copy films. They are altered copy films made from the original skull x-rays and altered in such a manner that the blowout in the back of the head, the exit wound behind the right ear, seen in Dallas by all the Doctors and Nurses has been hidden in the x-rays, it looks like solid bone, but we know they are forgeries.

Number Two: The autopsy report's been rewritten at least twice, so the version in the archives now is the third written version, and the - particularly disturbing to me is the fact that the brain photographs in the archives, proported to be of President Kennedy's brain cannot be of his brain as proven by the testimony of two key witnesses. The - one of the FBI Agents who was at the autopsy, Frank O'Neil said - they cant be of President Kennedy's brain because there is way too much mass present, there is too much tissue present in the organ in the photographs. And, the photographer who took the pictures said - No these can't be the pictures I took, because they're taken on the wrong kind of film and they are taken from the wrong angles. And they also don't show the sections that were made of the brain.

So those are three key areas where there is fraud in the evidence, there are others, but that's it in a nutshell.

JM: Okay, so in other words what you are telling me, is that when someone steps forward and says – yes but look, this government document states thus and so, you cannot take that to the bank, can you?

DH: That's correct Jim. Normally the autopsy report is THE medical legal record of someone's death. In this case, it's not true since we know at least two written versions of the autopsy report, a typed first draft, and the first signed version, have been destroyed. The autopsy report cannot be used to describe how Kennedy died.

JM: Right, Okay. Well that's Step Number One. We'll go to step this up to Number Two, right after this.

[- to 8:50 - commercial break]

12:18:

JM: Howdy, We're back here today, this is your host Jim Marrs. We're talking with Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board and he's just informed us that the autopsy on President Kennedy has been altered, fabricated, changed, at the level of the Federal Government. So, Doug, tell us how you KNOW this.

DH: Sure Jim, we know from the testimony taken of Doctors Humes and Boswell – there were three pathologists and President Kennedy's autopsy, two of them were Navy and they were the lead doctors at the autopsy Doctors Humes and Boswell. The third guy was kind of an outsider, Dr. Finck worked for the Army and he arrived late after the autopsy had started and he was basically a consultant, advising the other, the two Navy men. So we took the testimony of all three…

JM: Excuse me had any of these military doctors had any kind of extensive experience with gunshot wounds?

DH: Almost no, no, almost no is the answer. Doctors Humes and Boswell, the two lead pathologists had no practical experience in forensic autopsies of people killed by trauma, by gunshot wounds. They had only done autopsies of people due to natural - death due to natural causes. And Dr. Finck, the consultant, was a board certified forensic pathologist, but number one, he arrived late, after much of the work had been done Number two, he did not do this every day, he only reviewed reports written by other people. So there was almost no practical experience in forensic pathology during the autopsy on the 35th president, which is really appalling. In retrospect I believe this was intentional. You can steer the conclusions of people who aren't really qualified in the first place not only because they are in uniform and are following orders but because they're not forensic pathologists, the two lead pathologists were not , so …

JM: Is it true, that they were – when - I think it was Finck, or one of the autopsy doctors – there was some argument going on about what to do, how to do it – and he said – Well who's in charge here – and a military officer said – I am – is that true?

DH: That's correct. During the Shaw trial, Dr. Finck had a rough time on the witness stand and the first day he testified he made that statement under oath, he said – I said, Who's in charge here – and Dr. Humes – Dr. Finck recalled that Humes the lead pathologist had said – Who's in charge here – you know, irritated with all the interference during the autopsy and the people giving orders and that - Finck said under oath, an Army General said – I am. He tried to back away from that during his later testimony at the Shaw trial but it was too late, he had already said it under oath, and in fact we know he was being coached – I mean, he was doing so badly on the witness stand that - in terms of telling the truth that other people didn't want him to tell that, they called Dr. Boswell down and had him waiting in the wings to take over and to get up there and rebutt Finck if necessary, so Boswell revealed to us under oath something we didn't know, that he was called down there by the Justice Department to help with the defense team, and was waiting in the wings because Pierre Finck was doing so badly….

JM: So [..-ive ?..] testimony..

DH: Yeah, so to make a long story short, yeah, Dr. Humes admitted in 1964 to Arlen Specter - To Assistant Council Arlen Specter on the Warren Commission - admitted that he burned the first draft of the autopsy report in his fireplace on Sunday, the weekend of the assassination.

JM: Um,hm

DH: The problem for Humes is that during the House Committee period in the mid 70's he changed his story, and he said – Well I destroyed the notes in my fireplace, I destroyed notes - because they had the blood of the President on them and he thought it was unseemly. Well, that's a conflict right there, so when he testified before us General Council Jeremy Gunn really bore in on him on this subject and Humes finally admitted that he destroyed both, the first draft, and notes. So that's the first – and by the way, Dr. Boswell told us under oath that the first draft was actually typed and it was prepared on Saturday. Boswell told us [..?..] it was prepared Saturday and reviewed by he and Humes, and we also know the third party, Dr. Canada, commanding officer of the hospital portion of the Bethsda complex, those three men reviewed it on Saturday, Humes destroys it in his fireplace the next morning, early Sunday morning. So that's the first version that's been destroyed. The second version was a signed version that was given to Robert Kennedy in 1965 by the Secret Service at his request. He was a Senator at that time, from New York and then a year and a half later, when he was required to turn over all the autopsy materials he had in his possession back to the Government so they could be put in the archives – he returned the photographs and x-rays but he did not return a signed version of the autopsy report, along with the - what was left of the brain and other biological specimens. So he kept part of these materials and they've never seen the light of day again. So, ah….

JM: So what you're telling us is, is that standard operating autopsy procedures were NOT followed in the case of the JFK Assassination.

DH: Certainly not with the evidence. I mean the evidence was made by the Government, it never should have been turned over to someone's family. And when they returned it to the Government, and the Government knew immediately that he had not returned all the materials and that he had kept biological materials, tissue samples, the brain, plus a signed autopsy report. They didn't go after him, they just let it go, which was appalling. So we know that the next year in 1967, the year after the Kennedy's returned the materials to the archives - The next year the Secret Service turned over an original autopsy report to the National Archives, and that's the one we have today, and that's the third version. In other words Jim, if you – if there's only one autopsy report, no one can give it to someone else twice. See, you have the Secret Service on record giving a signed autopsy report to Robert Kennedy in 1965 and then he keeps it and doesn't give it back. And then the Secret Service turns over ANOTHER signed autopsy report two years later to the archives, and that's the version that's on file now and therefore I conclude that's the third written version. So that's just completely unacceptable.

JM: You think the third version which is now the official Government version, do you think it accurately reflects what was actually found at the Kennedy autopsy?

DH: Oh, no. It is the version that concludes that a bullet transited the body And that was not a conclusion, you know, from back to front, from the upper back at the throat That was not a conclusion of, at the autopsy, the FBI agents were there and they wrote their own report and they know that was not a conclusion during the autopsy itself and I don't believe that was the conclusion in the version that Robert Kennedy sequestered either. So that was one conclusion that evolved and of course there is no mention of any shot from the front in the autopsy report that exists today and I don't believe there was in the earlier versions either because that evidence was surpressed during the autopsy itself. I mean, the coverup began the moment the body arrived. So no, the conclusions were evolving, and that's why you have different versions, and all that's all laid out in Chapter Eleven of my book.

JM: Okay so they altered the autopsy report. What about the President's body, there has been some speculation there may have been alteration actually to the body. Do you have any knowledge of that?

DH: There was, Jim. I consider it a certainty, now. This concept was first raised in 1981 by David Lifton and his outstanding book "Best Evidence" which he worked on for fifteen years. By the way it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it didn't win but it was nominated, which is remarkable…

JM: Um, hm

DH: ...and given the subject matter - and Macmillan at the time was very brave to publish that book. So Mr. Lifton believed that the body, the wounds on the head, had been altered before the body had arrived at Bethesda and my conclusion is that he was close but he wasn't really correct, and I've altered my view of this because we just know more now than we did in 1981. We know a lot more, based on the ARRB's depositions and interviews. I've concluded that, yes, the head wounds were altered by surgery, by post mortem surgery after death but it happened at Bethesda before the autopsy began. You see, there was a long period of time, Jim, between the body actually arrived and the time the autopsy started, the body arrived at 6:35 p.m. we know that because of a report written by a Marine Security Guard, Sargeant Boyajian and so it arrives at 6:35 p.m., the autopsy doesn't begin until 8:15. 8:15 p.m.

And there is a lot of time there for shenanigans to take place, and the shenanigans WERE taking place. We interviewed Tom Robinson, one of the morticians, who prepared the body for burial after the autopsy. He was there for the whole period, he was there for the whole autopsy. We also deposed the two x-ray technicians and one of them, Ed Reed - Ed Reed the autopsy tech and Tom Robinson, the mortician they [.. bo....- jury ..] to the President's skull, done by Dr. Humes. And from the way they described the details of that surgery it's clear that what Dr. Humes was doing was expanding the exit wound that was seen by the Dallas doctors and nurses, expanding that wound dramatically to five times its original size so that now there's a large defect on the top of the President's head and on the right side – which was not present in Dallas.

The reason for him doing that, the primary reason, was to get to the brain and remove evidence. Remove evidence of the shot from the front. Remove the entry wound in the upper right forehead with an incision, remove the entry wound in the bone. Remove part of the skull plate, and remove bullet fragments from the brain, and along with it a lot of brain tissue was removed. So this is – and the process of doing this, you've got a much larger skull defect when you are finished with this illicit surgery and that large skull defect is misrepresented by the camera, and in the autopsy report, and this represented to history as – quote - damage caused by an exiting bullet – unquote. So this [...] large defect done by the doctors which Tom Robinson was adamant about. He looked at the autopsy photos and said - Oh all this damage at the top of the head, he said – this is not what the bullet did, this is what the doctors did. He was there, he knew that.

JM: So what you are telling us is that these alterations, these shenanigans as you called them, they certainly could not have been done by Lee Harvey Oswald, or by the Russians, or the by the Mafia, or by the anti-Castro Cubans, right?

DH: Exactly, and to prove that point, Jim I will make if brief here but – the body left Dallas in an ornate bronze viewing casket very heavy, over four hundred pounds, made of bronze, with the top half that opens up for viewing, and it arrived at Bethesda in a different casket and in different wrappings. It arrived in a cheap aluminum shipping casket and instead of wrapped in sheets, wrapped in a body bag with a zipper. So the body was not only intercepted in route, where I believe the throat wound was - there was an entry wound in the President Kennedy's throat seen in Dallas by all the doctors. And that was tampered with before the body arrived at Bethesda. But after the body arrived, the skull wounds were tampered with by the pathologists themselves. So that makes it very clear that interruption in the chain of custody makes it very clear that it was an inside job by the Government.

JM: Right, that's amazing. Okay, well, we'll proceed along to Step Three of the analysis of the Kennedy Assassination, when we return right after this.

[- to 25:15 - commercial break]

For complete interview:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/02...doug-horne.html

Edited by William Kelly
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Horne on Marrs

Read it, quote it, cite it.

Many thanks to Jerry Ellis for taking the time to type out the transcript.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Jim Marrs Interviews Doug Horne

http://www.unknowncountry.com/media/?cur=485

DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber

February 20, 2010 Kennedy Assassination

JFK Assassination researcher Jim Marrs interviewing Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board - in operation from 1994 –1998

JM: = Jim Marrs

DH: = Doug Horne

[ 00:00 - 00:32 – announcer lead in...]

00:32:

JM: Howdy, I'm your host today here on Dreamland, on a very special occasion because today we're going to hear from Doug Horne. Doug was the chief Military analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board, and to just set the stage, let me explain that in the wake of the Kennedy Assassination, of course, within a week the new President, Lyndon Johnson hand picked a committee headed by Chief Justice Earl Warren and called the Warren Commission - prominent people on there such as John J. McCloy, Allan Dulles, who I found particularly interesting since Kennedy had fired Dulles from his position of CIA director in the wake of the failed Bay of Pigs invasion and Gerald Ford, our only unelected President and some others - and they concluded after about nine months that the assassination was the work of Lee Harvey Oswald who acted alone.

This was called into question almost immediately and a few years later we had the Jim Garrison investigation in New Orleans and the jury who was polled afterwards, unanimously said that Garrison had convinced them that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, but they could not bring themselves to believe beyond a resonable shadow of doubt that Clay Shaw was part of it, so they found him not guilty. But this raised even more questions particulary with some of the witnesses and information that came out in the Garrison trial. So then in the mid 70's Congress founded the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and they went through a lot of turmoil, changed leadership, and Blakey, the new Chief Council started off by saying they weren't going to consider any new evidence. Anything new they didn't want to hear about it, but they would re-examine some of the old evidence, well that forced them into considering the Dallas Police radio tape which according to two separate sets of acoustical scientists showed clearly that there had been shots not only from the School Book Depository but from the infamous Grassy Knoll.

But, the House Committee said well we're out of funds, we're out of business, and they encouraged the Justice Department to continue their investigation. This was not done, in fact all the Justice Department did was convene a handpicked committee of National Science Academy people who tried to call into question the Dallas Police tapes. A few years later, in a peer reviewed paper in England they called into question the conclusions of the National Academy of Science Committee. So the whole thing has been in constroversy and turmoil ever since. And finally, in the early 90's we had the Oliver Stone film "JFK" which was based on Jim Garrison's book, and my book "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy". And in the wake of the controversy that stirred up - Congress then named the Assassination Records Review Board.

And this was a group of citizens who were tasked to go into government files and find anything that pertained to the Kennedy Assassination Unfortunately, they were also instructed NOT to do anything with it, don't make any conclusions, don't present any of their findings or conclusions to the public, just put all the stuff in the National Archives and maybe twenty or thirty years later some diligent researcher might actually find something.

Well Doug Horne is the man. He is not only a diligent researcher, he was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board which put him right in the thick of what they were finding out about the Kennedy autopsy, which of course was done at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

And he even had opportunity to speak with and interview some of the people involved in the autopsy, and he was also privy to the examination of one of the most critical pieces of information – evidence – the famous Zapruder film taken by Abraham Zapruder.

So Doug, I apologize for that long-winded introduction, but now that we've laid the groundwork, tell us what you found in your work for the Assassination Records Review Board.

DH: Well, thanks Jim, it's a pleasure to be here, and don't apologize, the case IS a mess and it's been made into a mess by all those investigating bodies, so –

What I found Jim, was that, and these are my conclusions, you know, after working for the Review Board for the last three years of it's four year lifespan and my conclusions after researching and writing this book for thirteen years, this book "Inside the Assassination Records Review Board", available on Amazon.com. It's my conclusion that the reason the case has never come together like a normal homicide case is because there's massive fraud in the evidence. And, it's a pretty strong statement to make, but it's backed up in my book by overwhelming evidence, of not only fraud in the evidence. But what that means is a massive cover up of the medical evidence by the U.S. Government. And, specifically a coverup of the fact that the President was killed by a crossfire and that evidence of shots from the front was surpressed and only evidence of shots from the rear was admitted into evidence. So the listeners may be wondering – well, what do you mean by fraud in the evidence – and to summarize very very briefly, without getting inside baseball too much – there are three skull x-rays of the President, and those three are not originals in the national archives, they are copy films. They are altered copy films made from the original skull x-rays and altered in such a manner that the blowout in the back of the head, the exit wound behind the right ear, seen in Dallas by all the Doctors and Nurses has been hidden in the x-rays, it looks like solid bone, but we know they are forgeries.

Number Two: The autopsy report's been rewritten at least twice, so the version in the archives now is the third written version, and the - particularly disturbing to me is the fact that the brain photographs in the archives, proported to be of President Kennedy's brain cannot be of his brain as proven by the testimony of two key witnesses. The - one of the FBI Agents who was at the autopsy, Frank O'Neil said - they cant be of President Kennedy's brain because there is way too much mass present, there is too much tissue present in the organ in the photographs. And, the photographer who took the pictures said - No these can't be the pictures I took, because they're taken on the wrong kind of film and they are taken from the wrong angles. And they also don't show the sections that were made of the brain.

So those are three key areas where there is fraud in the evidence, there are others, but that's it in a nutshell.

JM: Okay, so in other words what you are telling me, is that when someone steps forward and says – yes but look, this government document states thus and so, you cannot take that to the bank, can you?

DH: That's correct Jim. Normally the autopsy report is THE medical legal record of someone's death. In this case, it's not true since we know at least two written versions of the autopsy report, a typed first draft, and the first signed version, have been destroyed. The autopsy report cannot be used to describe how Kennedy died.

JM: Right, Okay. Well that's Step Number One. We'll go to step this up to Number Two, right after this.

[- to 8:50 - commercial break]

12:18:

JM: Howdy, We're back here today, this is your host Jim Marrs. We're talking with Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board and he's just informed us that the autopsy on President Kennedy has been altered, fabricated, changed, at the level of the Federal Government. So, Doug, tell us how you KNOW this.

DH: Sure Jim, we know from the testimony taken of Doctors Humes and Boswell – there were three pathologists and President Kennedy's autopsy, two of them were Navy and they were the lead doctors at the autopsy Doctors Humes and Boswell. The third guy was kind of an outsider, Dr. Finck worked for the Army and he arrived late after the autopsy had started and he was basically a consultant, advising the other, the two Navy men. So we took the testimony of all three…

JM: Excuse me had any of these military doctors had any kind of extensive experience with gunshot wounds?

DH: Almost no, no, almost no is the answer. Doctors Humes and Boswell, the two lead pathologists had no practical experience in forensic autopsies of people killed by trauma, by gunshot wounds. They had only done autopsies of people due to natural - death due to natural causes. And Dr. Finck, the consultant, was a board certified forensic pathologist, but number one, he arrived late, after much of the work had been done Number two, he did not do this every day, he only reviewed reports written by other people. So there was almost no practical experience in forensic pathology during the autopsy on the 35th president, which is really appalling. In retrospect I believe this was intentional. You can steer the conclusions of people who aren't really qualified in the first place not only because they are in uniform and are following orders but because they're not forensic pathologists, the two lead pathologists were not , so …

JM: Is it true, that they were – when - I think it was Finck, or one of the autopsy doctors – there was some argument going on about what to do, how to do it – and he said – Well who's in charge here – and a military officer said – I am – is that true?

DH: That's correct. During the Shaw trial, Dr. Finck had a rough time on the witness stand and the first day he testified he made that statement under oath, he said – I said, Who's in charge here – and Dr. Humes – Dr. Finck recalled that Humes the lead pathologist had said – Who's in charge here – you know, irritated with all the interference during the autopsy and the people giving orders and that - Finck said under oath, an Army General said – I am. He tried to back away from that during his later testimony at the Shaw trial but it was too late, he had already said it under oath, and in fact we know he was being coached – I mean, he was doing so badly on the witness stand that - in terms of telling the truth that other people didn't want him to tell that, they called Dr. Boswell down and had him waiting in the wings to take over and to get up there and rebutt Finck if necessary, so Boswell revealed to us under oath something we didn't know, that he was called down there by the Justice Department to help with the defense team, and was waiting in the wings because Pierre Finck was doing so badly….

JM: So [..-ive ?..] testimony..

DH: Yeah, so to make a long story short, yeah, Dr. Humes admitted in 1964 to Arlen Specter - To Assistant Council Arlen Specter on the Warren Commission - admitted that he burned the first draft of the autopsy report in his fireplace on Sunday, the weekend of the assassination.

JM: Um,hm

DH: The problem for Humes is that during the House Committee period in the mid 70's he changed his story, and he said – Well I destroyed the notes in my fireplace, I destroyed notes - because they had the blood of the President on them and he thought it was unseemly. Well, that's a conflict right there, so when he testified before us General Council Jeremy Gunn really bore in on him on this subject and Humes finally admitted that he destroyed both, the first draft, and notes. So that's the first – and by the way, Dr. Boswell told us under oath that the first draft was actually typed and it was prepared on Saturday. Boswell told us [..?..] it was prepared Saturday and reviewed by he and Humes, and we also know the third party, Dr. Canada, commanding officer of the hospital portion of the Bethsda complex, those three men reviewed it on Saturday, Humes destroys it in his fireplace the next morning, early Sunday morning. So that's the first version that's been destroyed. The second version was a signed version that was given to Robert Kennedy in 1965 by the Secret Service at his request. He was a Senator at that time, from New York and then a year and a half later, when he was required to turn over all the autopsy materials he had in his possession back to the Government so they could be put in the archives – he returned the photographs and x-rays but he did not return a signed version of the autopsy report, along with the - what was left of the brain and other biological specimens. So he kept part of these materials and they've never seen the light of day again. So, ah….

JM: So what you're telling us is, is that standard operating autopsy procedures were NOT followed in the case of the JFK Assassination.

DH: Certainly not with the evidence. I mean the evidence was made by the Government, it never should have been turned over to someone's family. And when they returned it to the Government, and the Government knew immediately that he had not returned all the materials and that he had kept biological materials, tissue samples, the brain, plus a signed autopsy report. They didn't go after him, they just let it go, which was appalling. So we know that the next year in 1967, the year after the Kennedy's returned the materials to the archives - The next year the Secret Service turned over an original autopsy report to the National Archives, and that's the one we have today, and that's the third version. In other words Jim, if you – if there's only one autopsy report, no one can give it to someone else twice. See, you have the Secret Service on record giving a signed autopsy report to Robert Kennedy in 1965 and then he keeps it and doesn't give it back. And then the Secret Service turns over ANOTHER signed autopsy report two years later to the archives, and that's the version that's on file now and therefore I conclude that's the third written version. So that's just completely unacceptable.

JM: You think the third version which is now the official Government version, do you think it accurately reflects what was actually found at the Kennedy autopsy?

DH: Oh, no. It is the version that concludes that a bullet transited the body And that was not a conclusion, you know, from back to front, from the upper back at the throat That was not a conclusion of, at the autopsy, the FBI agents were there and they wrote their own report and they know that was not a conclusion during the autopsy itself and I don't believe that was the conclusion in the version that Robert Kennedy sequestered either. So that was one conclusion that evolved and of course there is no mention of any shot from the front in the autopsy report that exists today and I don't believe there was in the earlier versions either because that evidence was surpressed during the autopsy itself. I mean, the coverup began the moment the body arrived. So no, the conclusions were evolving, and that's why you have different versions, and all that's all laid out in Chapter Eleven of my book.

JM: Okay so they altered the autopsy report. What about the President's body, there has been some speculation there may have been alteration actually to the body. Do you have any knowledge of that?

DH: There was, Jim. I consider it a certainty, now. This concept was first raised in 1981 by David Lifton and his outstanding book "Best Evidence" which he worked on for fifteen years. By the way it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it didn't win but it was nominated, which is remarkable…

JM: Um, hm

DH: ...and given the subject matter - and Macmillan at the time was very brave to publish that book. So Mr. Lifton believed that the body, the wounds on the head, had been altered before the body had arrived at Bethesda and my conclusion is that he was close but he wasn't really correct, and I've altered my view of this because we just know more now than we did in 1981. We know a lot more, based on the ARRB's depositions and interviews. I've concluded that, yes, the head wounds were altered by surgery, by post mortem surgery after death but it happened at Bethesda before the autopsy began. You see, there was a long period of time, Jim, between the body actually arrived and the time the autopsy started, the body arrived at 6:35 p.m. we know that because of a report written by a Marine Security Guard, Sargeant Boyajian and so it arrives at 6:35 p.m., the autopsy doesn't begin until 8:15. 8:15 p.m.

And there is a lot of time there for shenanigans to take place, and the shenanigans WERE taking place. We interviewed Tom Robinson, one of the morticians, who prepared the body for burial after the autopsy. He was there for the whole period, he was there for the whole autopsy. We also deposed the two x-ray technicians and one of them, Ed Reed - Ed Reed the autopsy tech and Tom Robinson, the mortician they [.. bo....- jury ..] to the President's skull, done by Dr. Humes. And from the way they described the details of that surgery it's clear that what Dr. Humes was doing was expanding the exit wound that was seen by the Dallas doctors and nurses, expanding that wound dramatically to five times its original size so that now there's a large defect on the top of the President's head and on the right side – which was not present in Dallas.

The reason for him doing that, the primary reason, was to get to the brain and remove evidence. Remove evidence of the shot from the front. Remove the entry wound in the upper right forehead with an incision, remove the entry wound in the bone. Remove part of the skull plate, and remove bullet fragments from the brain, and along with it a lot of brain tissue was removed. So this is – and the process of doing this, you've got a much larger skull defect when you are finished with this illicit surgery and that large skull defect is misrepresented by the camera, and in the autopsy report, and this represented to history as – quote - damage caused by an exiting bullet – unquote. So this [...] large defect done by the doctors which Tom Robinson was adamant about. He looked at the autopsy photos and said - Oh all this damage at the top of the head, he said – this is not what the bullet did, this is what the doctors did. He was there, he knew that.

JM: So what you are telling us is that these alterations, these shenanigans as you called them, they certainly could not have been done by Lee Harvey Oswald, or by the Russians, or the by the Mafia, or by the anti-Castro Cubans, right?

DH: Exactly, and to prove that point, Jim I will make if brief here but – the body left Dallas in an ornate bronze viewing casket very heavy, over four hundred pounds, made of bronze, with the top half that opens up for viewing, and it arrived at Bethesda in a different casket and in different wrappings. It arrived in a cheap aluminum shipping casket and instead of wrapped in sheets, wrapped in a body bag with a zipper. So the body was not only intercepted in route, where I believe the throat wound was - there was an entry wound in the President Kennedy's throat seen in Dallas by all the doctors. And that was tampered with before the body arrived at Bethesda. But after the body arrived, the skull wounds were tampered with by the pathologists themselves. So that makes it very clear that interruption in the chain of custody makes it very clear that it was an inside job by the Government.

JM: Right, that's amazing. Okay, well, we'll proceed along to Step Three of the analysis of the Kennedy Assassination, when we return right after this.

[- to 25:15 - commercial break]

For complete interview:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2010/02...doug-horne.html

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