Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

This is a preliminary response to Jack White's post #166. I have more to post shortly.

1) ROBERT SIGNS OFF AS 'RAT' CAN BE POSTED WITH MY ANSWER TO JACK WHITE...NOTE POSTCARD, AS WELL...SENT TO ME FROM MY HUSBAND, ROBERT, AS HE WAS HAVING FUN WITH FRIENDS IN NEW ORLEANS, WHERE I WAS LIVING... DROPPED OFF A POSTCARD TO ME, HIS WIFE...WE HAD BEEN MARRIED LESS THAN 2 1/2 MONTHS AT THIS TIME...

2) 'DR. NO' POSTER.

JACK WHITE STATED WE DID NOT SEE A JAMES BOND MOVIE...FOR BARB HAD POSTED THAT WE DID NOT SEE 'FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.' WHICH I SAID IN AN INTERVIEW IN HOLLAND WHICH WAS CLIPPED AND DID NOT MENTION THAT WE SAW 'DR. NO' ..... I SAID AFTER THE INTERVIEW THAT I WASN'T SURE IF WE HAD SEEN 'FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE' AS WELL.

LEE AND I DISCUSSED BOTH MOVIES BECAUSE WE LOVED JAMES BOND NOVELS AND HAD READ THEM ALL. ONE WE SAW, THE OTHER NOT, BECAUSE LEE DIED BEFORE IT CAME OUT. PILLORY ME FOR THAT? (Dr No opened stateside in May 1963.)

Amazing.

I find it interesting that though JVB says her new husband left her "immediately" after

their marriage she somehow (not explained) was able to conceive 5 beautiful children

by someone. Mr. Baker is very conspicuous by his absence in her stories.

Thanks to whomever accumulated all these quotes, sayings, non-sayings, rebuttals, excuses,

etc. which I had never seen. They are helpful in trying to understand this strange hiccup

in the JFK case.

I wish that included had been the JVB responses to the 12 years of documented research

by John Armstrong showing that two different persons (or more) used the name "Lee

Harvey Oswald". As I recall, her reply was that there was only ONE Oswald..."LEE".

According to Armstrong's documentation, the LHO who worked at Reily Coffee Company

was not Lee, but HARVEY. I guess "Lee" withheld that secret from her.

Edited March 8, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Barb Junkkarinen]

I don't doubt that she saw a James Bond film with Oswald (I just want to know the date and circumstance) so it can be added to Oswald's chronology.

Hi Bill,

I recall running across some posts from 2004 where you were one discussing her having claimed that she and Oswald saw From Russia With Love .... and that it was pointed out that film was not released in the US until sometime in 1964. Judyth apparently had then said that someone else wrote the wrong movie name, and they had actually seen Dr. No together.

In her book, published in 2006, Judyth says this on page 246 of Volume 1:

Dr. No was the first James Bond movie to be released, and Lee, who had been reading Fleming's novels with gusto for some time (he would re-read them this summer, as well) loved every minute of it, including the music. He would eagerly anticipate the release of the second Ian Fleming spy novel to be filmed, From Russia With Love, but he would not live to see it.

She includes that passage in a section subtitled: MAY 22 - 23 - 24, 1963, in Chapter 15. The next paragraph says, The work week ending, May 24

found us still mellow ...

So, from that, it would seem she claims she saw Dr. No with Oswald on May 23rd.

She has a similar situation with their first kiss. On page 172, Volume 1, in a passage just before a section subtitled, THURSDAY MORNING, MAY 9, 1963, she relates a moving scenario of their first kiss. After the setup, she writes this:

Lee then reached for me, and kissed me. Goodness, that man could kiss! The song, Then He Kissed Me roared through my head: ...

The song, Then He Kissed Me, by the Crystals, was not released until 3 months later ... in August 1963. I believe it was Steve Thomas on the moderated group who first found the month the song was released.

http://rateyourmusic.com/release/single/th...brother_julius/

The song wasn't even written by Phil Spector until July:

- By July, 1963, Phil Spector had already made the Top 100 with 7 chart hits that he produced. He successfully ended his partnership with Lester Sill and began his marriage to Annette Merar. Shortly after his marriage, Spector traveled to New York looking for a song to follow up on the Crystals success with "Da Doo Ron Ron." "Then He Kissed Me" was the perfect song for the group and Phil put together one of his most extravagant productions for the record. (Thanks to Kent at the Forgotten Hits newsletter, which you can join at The60sshop@aol.com.)

http://www.lyricalcontent.com/69605/lyrics...hekissedme.html

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Dean Hagerman]

Whether he was circumcised

I know this is not in good taste, but I have ALL of LHOs autopsy photos

If Judyth could answer this question and maybe some more about LHOs anatomy then I would be willing to look into her claims

I do not like asking these type of personal questions but they could really help to either prove or disprove Judyths claims

Jim if Judyth is willing to answer a few questions I will ask her through you

Dean

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

More from Judyth on several of Jack's posts. There

are some typos here, which are due to her poor vision.

Please note my comments on THE JACK WHITE post:.

[Jack White]

This is a preliminary response to Jack White's post #166. I have more to post shortly.

1) ROBERT SIGNS OFF AS 'RAT' CAN BE POSTED WITH MY ANSWER TO JACK WHITE...NOTE POSTCARD, AS WELL...SENT TO ME FROM MY HUSBAND, ROBERT, AS HE WAS HAVING FUN WITH FRIENDS IN NEW ORLEANS, WHERE I WAS LIVING... DROPPED OFF A POSTCARD TO ME, HIS WIFE...WE HAD BEEN MARRIED LESS THAN 2 1/2 MONTHS AT THIS TME...

2) 'DR. NO' POSTER.

JACK WHITE STATED WE DID NOT SEE A JAMES BOND MOVIE...FOR BARB HAD POSTED THAT WE DID NOT SEE 'FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.' WHICH I SAID IN AN INTERVIEW IN HOLLAND WHICH WAS CLIPPED AND DID NOT MENTION THAT WE SAW 'DR. NO' ..... I SAID AFTER THE INTERVIEW THAT I WASN'T SURE IF WE HAD SEEN 'FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE' AS WELL.

LEE AND I DISCUSSED BOTH MOVIES BECAUSE WE LOVED JAMES BOND NOVELS AND HAD READ THEM ALL. ONE WE SAW, THE OTHER NOT, BECAUSE LEE DIED BEFORE IT CAME OUT. PILLORY ME FOR THAT? (Dr No opened stateside in May 1963.)

Amazing.

I find it interesting that though JVB says her new husband left her "immediately" after

their marriage she somehow (not explained) was able to conceive 5 beautiful children

by someone. Mr. Baker is very conspicuous by his absence in her stories.

Thanks to whomever accumulated all these quotes, sayings, non-sayings, rebuttals, excuses,

etc. which I had never seen. They are helpful in trying to understand this strange hiccup

in the JFK case.

I wish that included had been the JVB responses to the 12 years of documented research

by John Armstrong showing that two different persons (or more) used the name "Lee

Harvey Oswald". As I recall, her reply was that there was only ONE Oswald..."LEE".

According to Armstrong's documentation, the LHO who worked at Reily Coffee Company

was not Lee, but HARVEY. I guess "Lee" withheld that secret from her.

I never mentioned a James Bond movie. It was Bill Kelly who asked her that question.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Amazing.

I find it interesting that though JVB says her new husband left her "immediately" after

their marriage she somehow (not explained) was able to conceive 5 beautiful children

by someone. Mr. Baker is very conspicuous by his absence in her stories.

Thanks to whomever accumulated all these quotes, sayings, non-sayings, rebuttals, excuses,

etc. which I had never seen. They are helpful in trying to understand this strange hiccup

in the JFK case.

Jack,

Robert Baker didn't leave her that summer ... as in split up. He had a summer job in the gulf, she got them an apartment in New Orleans for while they were there. At the end of the summer, they returned to Florida and he resumed school. It was just a summer job.

He sent her a postcard, it is printed in her book, that he mailed to her when in NO on business for one day ... it was mailed July 23rd, she trc'd it on the 24th. It says:

Hi There! Just stopped in New Orleans and thought I'd drop a line. Boy, is the weather miserable here. I'll be back through in a couple of days. Eat enough & take care of yourself 'cause I'm lovin' you. Bob.

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

More from Judyth on several of Jack's posts. There

are some typos here, which are due to her poor vision.

Please note my comments on THE JACK WHITE post:.

The comments by JVB about John Armstrong are 180 degrees from truth.

He wanted to know who Lee Harvey Oswald really was. He found out.

He spent 12 years researching EVERY bit of documentation about LHO.

He spent another year in China publishing his book AT HIS OWN EXPENSE

because the cost in the U.S. was too prohibitive.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Further replies from Judyth to Jack White with more on the way:

JACK DOES NOT QUOTE FROM ARMSTRONG'S BOOK.

THIS IS UNFORTUNATE.

He says that the ZIGER sisters stated Lee was only 5'2"....

WE HAVE THE WORK THAT PETER WRONSKI DID IN "LEE HARVEY OSWALD IN MINSK" WHERE HE DISPUTES LEE AS BEING SHORT.

WRITES WRONSKI ON HIS WEBSITE:

"One of the theories that circulates around the JFK assassination has to do with the premise that Lee Harvey Oswald was substituted by another person either before or during his voyage to the USSR...There was the haunting photograph of Oswald posing with his wife Marina, the only known full-length photo of the couple, where the 5'11" Oswald (according to his passport) is barely taller than the 5'3" Marina. This photo is often cited by the Oswald substitutionists. There it was, in black and white: the height discrepancy was undeniable and Oswald is toe-to-toe with Marina who is wearing flats. How could the 5'11" Oswald (or 5'9" as other records indicate [uSMC photo for example] ) appear to be in the photo only one or two inches higher than the 5'3" Marina? It is a photograph that traveled with me to the Soviet Union..."

HE DISCOVERED THAT LUCY PETRUSEVICH, STANDING IN THE SAME SPOT, WAS 'TOO TALL'--JUST AS MARINA LOOKED 'TALLER' THAN SHE REALLY WAS:

"In the famous photo, Marina was standing on that slope. If one takes a closer look at Marina's feet in the black and white photograph below, one sees how they are slightly pointed downwards: one can see the top of her shoes and instep. Marina's right heel is raised higher than the toe and slopes downwards. Her left toe is at the same level with Oswald's, but the her heels are higher. While the shaded slope is not as easily visible in the photograph, once one knows it is there, one can make out its subtle angle. The height discrepancy, however, between people is dramatically visible even if the slope is not. That is why Oswald appears to be nearly the same height as Marina. It is not Oswald who is too short; it is Marina who is boosted higher a few inches! "

Peter shows us Lucy and "OLga"--Olga is much taller than Lucy, but when photographed in the same positons as the Oswald-Marina photo, Olga loses considerable height. Go see it for yourself [NOTE: where there is a slight elevation close to the wall] at:

LEE-MARINA HEIGHT DISCREPANCY EXPLAINED

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/discrep.htm

Then there are the sisters Mr. White says were interviewed--the "Ziglers" :

An attached photo showing Lee fishing with the girls cannot be judged because he is standing on a steep bank--the other girl is a dwarf if we consider there is no embankment. This photo can't count as we seek the answer about Lee's height.

Note in the third photo, where Lee wears sunglasses, he does not look like 'a little boy' and is quite the normal size as everybody else in the photo, which was published in the W.C.

The next photo shows Lee with Marina--this is the same Lee I knew, and they are photographed by a third party...Note that Lee is quite a bit taller than Marina. Marina and I were exactly the same height--5' 2"--so you can see that Lee is nowhere close to 5' 2" in height.

Did Armstrong take the word of the sisters over the evidence of photographs? Did he misreport their statements? Did Jack misreport the matter? Did somebody pose as the sisters to throw Armstrong off? (doubtful)

===All of this is again distratcing from the evidence and leads that I have tried so hard to get to public attention....I am quite concerned if Armstrong concludes that Lee (Harvey? who?) was only 5'2" tall. We have clear indications that somehow the sisters are either mistaken, misreported, or perhaps suffering from Alzehiemer's (just joking). One way or another, these reports are wrong.

Judyth

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Judyth responds to Barbara Junkkarinen:

Junkkarinen writes:

She has a similar situation with their first kiss. On page 172, Volume 1, in a passage just before a section subtitled, THURSDAY MORNING, MAY 9, 1963, she relates a moving scenario of their first kiss. After the setup, she writes this:

Lee then reached for me, and kissed me. Goodness, that man could kiss! The song, Then He Kissed Me roared through my head: ...

The song, Then He Kissed Me, by the Crystals, was not released until 3 months later ... in August 1963. I believe it was Steve Thomas on the moderated group who first found the month the song was released.

===

FORTY YEARS PASSED WHEN I WROTE THAT.

BARB IS RIGHT...I DIDN'T THINK OF THE SONG WHEN LEE KISSED ME AT THAT TIME...I THOUGHT OF IT LATER, AND WISHED WE COULD HAVE KISS AGAIN, LATE IN NOVEMBER, WHEN IT SHOT TO THE TOP OF THE CHARTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE MASS OF THINGS I HAVE SAID AND LIVED THROUGH, I THINK I HAVE DONE VERY WELL, OVER ALL, CORRECTLY RECOLLECTING TINGS. I HAD PLACED A LIST OF SONGS THAT WERE IMPORTANT TO ME AND ALSO, IN MANY CASES, IMPOPRTANT TO LEE, IN 1963, IN MY DIARY.

HERE'S THE LIST

RUMBLE (GUITAR RIFFS)

THE LONELY BULL BY HERB ALPERT

THEN HE KISSED ME

I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM

EXODUS BY PAT BOONE

THE KING AND I

JAMES BOND THEME DR. NO.

LAWRENCE OF ARABIA THEME

BOLERO

LET IT BE ME--THE EVERLY BROTHERS

(THAT WAS OUR LOVE SONG)

STRAVINSKY'S FIREBIRD SUITE

EVERYTHING BY BEETHOVEN AND MOZART

THE WAYWARD WIND BY GOGI GRANT

SONGS BY THE PLATTERS, ESP. SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES

I don't doubt that she saw a James Bond film with Oswald (I just want to know the date and circumstance) so it can be added to Oswald's chronology.

Hi Bill,

I recall running across some posts from 2004 where you were one discussing her having claimed that she and Oswald saw From Russia With Love .... and that it was pointed out that film was not released in the US until sometime in 1964. Judyth apparently had then said that someone else wrote the wrong movie name, and they had actually seen Dr. No together.

In her book, published in 2006, Judyth says this on page 246 of Volume 1:

Dr. No was the first James Bond movie to be released, and Lee, who had been reading Fleming's novels with gusto for some time (he would re-read them this summer, as well) loved every minute of it, including the music. He would eagerly anticipate the release of the second Ian Fleming spy novel to be filmed, From Russia With Love, but he would not live to see it.

She includes that passage in a section subtitled: MAY 22 - 23 - 24, 1963, in Chapter 15. The next paragraph says, The work week ending, May 24

found us still mellow ...

So, from that, it would seem she claims she saw Dr. No with Oswald on May 23rd.

She has a similar situation with their first kiss. On page 172, Volume 1, in a passage just before a section subtitled, THURSDAY MORNING, MAY 9, 1963, she relates a moving scenario of their first kiss. After the setup, she writes this:

Lee then reached for me, and kissed me. Goodness, that man could kiss! The song, Then He Kissed Me roared through my head: ...

The song, Then He Kissed Me, by the Crystals, was not released until 3 months later ... in August 1963. I believe it was Steve Thomas on the moderated group who first found the month the song was released.

http://rateyourmusic.com/release/single/th...brother_julius/

The song wasn't even written by Phil Spector until July:

- By July, 1963, Phil Spector had already made the Top 100 with 7 chart hits that he produced. He successfully ended his partnership with Lester Sill and began his marriage to Annette Merar. Shortly after his marriage, Spector traveled to New York looking for a song to follow up on the Crystals success with "Da Doo Ron Ron." "Then He Kissed Me" was the perfect song for the group and Phil put together one of his most extravagant productions for the record. (Thanks to Kent at the Forgotten Hits newsletter, which you can join at The60sshop@aol.com.)

http://www.lyricalcontent.com/69605/lyrics...hekissedme.html

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Dean Hagerman]

Judyth are you ready for my questions?

I know you are reading this thread

Edited March 7, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Judyth responds to more questions from Jack White and from Barbara Junkkarinen:

Jim...JVB claimed to be one of the women in this photo. Please ask her which one is her. Thanks.

Jack

==WE NOW HAVE EVIDENCE that Jack White did not read my answers to Dave Reitzes, POSTED BY DR. FETZER. I made it clear that I never knew for sure if this was my photo or not.

Jack repeats the question. Either he is not interested in finding out the truth about me, by reading what was posted, thus failing to read my comment about that very question, or his memory is faulty, or he is being specious. I regret that none of these possibilities are complimentary, and I fear that he will take umbrage thereby.

In 2006, Shackleford was able to stablize the photo and I then told him the pattern on the dress was not the same and I no longer believed this could be me. This was after what was posted to the Simkin Forum.

But if Jack White had actually read what you had posted, Jim, he would not have asked the question.

Jack is not reading the posts. Is he just throwing red herrings out there? Remember, the more questions you ask a witness, the more people decide the witness must have problems. That's human nature and psychology.

Barb is also misrepresenting the matter in Sweden. She avoids the fact that she and others accused me of being an illegal alien. Pamela and Shackleford did not trot the information out to create trouble, but in my behalf.

She repeats what was found in my file and makes it look like being rejected means I had no case. That was not true. I would have been deported at once had that been the case. Imagine all the people that would be in the system if they just let 'everybody' who came into Sweden seeking political asylum to be granted entrance.

Barb also did not mention, did she, that I had the right to file another petition. Such petitions can take up to a year to be answered. I did not want to be a parasite in the system: I obtained the means to survive without filing another petition.

Even Barb must admit that THAT is true.

She seems to wish to place my rejection in a bad light, when it is remarkable that they protected me for so long when I was an American woman. I am not allowed to tell the details of who helped me in the system to make sure that my case was placed in INHIBITION.

INHIBITION IS A SPECIAL DEVICE USED WHEN MORE EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED. IT IS INVOKED SO THAT THE DEPORTATION ORDER CANNOT GO THROUGH.

Look at this case of a woman in 2000. It shows how important and unsuaul INHIBITION is (since Barb did not show you how important that was, I will):

Complaint No. 164/2000

Submitted by: L.M.T.D. (name withheld)

Alleged victim: The complainant

State party: Sweden

Date of submission of complaint: 22 March 2000

The Committee against Torture, established under article 17 of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment,

Meeting on 15 May 2002,

Having concluded its consideration of complaint No. 164/2000, submitted to the Committee against Torture under article 22 of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment,

Having taken into account all information made available to it by the complainant and the State party,

Adopts the following decision under article 22, paragraph 7, of the Convention.

1.1 The complainant is L.M.T.D., a Venezuelan citizen currently residing in Sweden. She claims that her return to Venezuela following Sweden's refusal to grant her political asylum would constitute a violation of article 3 of the Convention. She is represented by counsel.

The facts as submitted by the complainant:

[what follows is a list of evidence]...<snip>

2.5 The complainant and her family applied for political asylum in Sweden on 19 March 1998. The Swedish National Migration Board rejected the application on 24 August 1998, claiming that the facts did not in any way constitute grounds for asylum in Sweden...An application for inhibition was later filed with the Aliens' Commission, but it was denied...

...

5.1 ...The complainant nevertheless maintains that there is a clear danger that she would be put on trial and given a long prison sentence and that there is therefore also a danger that she would be subjected to torture in a Venezuelan prison, in violation of article 3 of the Convention.

YOU SEE THAT IN THIS CASE, INHIBITION WAS DENIED, THOUGH THE PERSON FEARED TORTURE ON BEING RETURNED TO VENEZUELA WITH CHAVEZ IN POWER. HOWEVER, I WAS GRANTED INHIBITION.

IT MEANT THAT I WAS ABLE TO SAY MUCH LONGER IN SWEDEN. I DID NOT ABUSE THAT PRVILEGE AND LEFT AS SOON AS I WAS ABLE AND DID NOT FILE A PETITION TO TRY TO STAY LONGER. I COME AND GO IN SWEDEN NOW BECAUSE I NEVER RECEIVED A DEPORTATION ORDER.

note also, from the website, in regard to the negative I got that was placed in INHIBITION: ordinarily, you do not even get a lawyer. However, I was given a lawyer.

'Appealing the decision':

'If you believe the refusal is incorrect, you may appeal against it, but you have no right to remain in Sweden and wait for the decision on your appeal. Normally you do not have the right to a public counsel that can help you with your appeal. The appeal must be in writing and be received by the Swedish Migration Board within 21 days from the date on which you were notified of the decision.'

HOWEVER, I WAS GIVEN A LAWYER IN UPPSALA, AND HE PREPARED BRIEFS. I WAS ALSO GIVEN INHIBITION, AS BARB HERSELF MENTIONS.

HER MAKING IT SEEM THAT I CAME TO SWEDEN FOR NO GOOD REASON AND WAS 'KICKED OUT' SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE. IT IS A MISREPRESENTATION.

IN ADDITION, SOMEONE WHO IS DEPORTED HAS TO GIVE BACK THE CARD THAT I STILL HAVE. I CAN PROVE THAT I STILL OWN THE CARD. IF I HAD RECEIVED A DEPORTATION ORDER, THIS CARD WOULD NOT BE STILL IN MY POSSESSION. NOTE THIS QUOTATION FROM THE WEBSITE:

"Before you leave the country, you must return your LMA card. You must also return your debit card if you previously received financial compensation from the Swedish Migration Board."

ANOTHER RULE IS THAT A PERSON DEPORTED IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO SWEDEN FOR, I BELIEVE, FIVE YEARS.

Judyth

Jim...JVB claimed to be one of the women in this photo. Please ask her which one is her. Thanks.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Dean,

If you have these personal questions, why don't you

email them to me and let me carry them forward?

My email address is jfetzer@d.umn.edu. Thanks.

Jim

Judyth are you ready for my questions?

I know you are reading this thread

[Dean Hagerman]

Email sent Jim

[Jack White]

Jim, again, please ask JVB which of these photos most resembles the

man she knew. Thanks.

Also, re the photo in front of the Trade Mart, since she says she was NOT

in the photo, ask her WAS SHE THERE? Was she there during the Bringuier

confrontation? Did she witness the scuffle and arrest? Did she visit Lee in

jail?

Jack

Edited March 8, 2010 by Jack White

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

All,

Taking a modest break, I must say that I am astounded at Judyth's resilience under this barrage, which has been going on in relation to her since 2004! I doubt that anyone who is challenging her could do anywhere near matching her performance in dealing with these issues, which date back to 1963 and often involve minutia. I would not be able to do anything remotely as thorough and as detailed as has Judyth over this extraordinary interval of time. I would point out, moreover, that her information about cancer research and bioweapons is almost certainly the real reason for her ongoing harassment and the controversy that swirls around her, as my psy ops expert has observed. I would ask Jack to bear in mind that this may well be the real reason for all of this blizzard of attacks and attempts to discredit her. As far as I am concerned, she is more competent and capable at conducting research than 95% of the members of this forum, many of whom fall short by comparison. Therefore, I want to emphasize that she has already advanced many leads and new identifications by role for familiar and unfamiliar names alike. Jack is asking about her identification of those in various photographs, which is closely related to John Armstrong's research on "the two Oswalds". Before we hear from Judyth on this subject, I want to remind everyone of Jack's photographic portfolio, which includes these images, and to thank Kathy Beckett for an excellent link to an introduction of Armstrong's work, which I recommend that everyone who is interested in this thread should read in the next few days.

Jim

Dr. Fetzer,

For a fairly quick read on Armstrong's work, this is perfect.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071130023401/...m/harveyandlee/

Kathy