Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[John Dolva]

Well, that issue is very current with wild statements coming from all over. I don't think that in itself is a JFK matter. People hypothesise it has something to do with population control believing the world is over populated. particularly with ''sub humans'', there are many other ideas floating around.

With regards to the Kennedy era, the demonising of black or mixed persons was a potent force appealing to certain groupings, leading to enforced sterilisation, making mixed marriages illegal, portraying Negroes as having the worst of animal instincts with very low morals, forced participation of blood work on colored convicts who tended in the south to be the major percentage of the prison population. Some people took it very seriously and Tulane perhaps more so than many. (it helps to read through the Alabama, Georgia clippings in the MSC files of the period to gain a sense of where some people were (are) at)

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON A POST BY BILL KELLY:

KELLY IS THE FIRST PERSON TO HAVE INTERVIEWED HER AND WRITTEN ABOUT HER...HE RECENTLY REVISED HER STORY, TOO. EDISEN WAS VERY EXCITED ABOUT HEARING ABOUT ME AND WROTE ME A VERY NICE EMAIL. THEN SHE WAS TOLD I WAS A 'HOAX' ...AND REFUSED TO REPLY TO ANY MORE EMAILS.

PEOPLE TELLING HER I AM WORTHLESS HAVE KEPT US APART A DECADE, I GUESS FOREVER...YET MY ACCOUNT SUPPORTS HERS, AND HERS SUPPORTS MINE, AS LEE MOVED ME INTO 1032 MARENGO ON MAY 4 AND SAID A THAT TIME HE WOULD BE MOVING INTO AN APARTMENT ALREADY CHOSEN.

ON MAY 7, LEE TOOK ME THERE AND ASKED THE MANAGER THERE TO PUT OUT A 'TO LET' SIGN. HE PLANNED TO HAVE A WOMAN NAMED GLADYS -- A GOSSIPY OLD FRIEND OF HIS MOTHER'S -- DRIVE HIM THAT DIRECTION SO HE COULD 'POINT OUT' THE SIGN.

LEE MET WITH 'GLADYS' AT 8 AM, AS THEY WERE FINISHING BREAKFAST THERE, BEFORE REILY'S OFFICES EVEN OPENED FOR INTERVIEWS THAT DAY, MAY 9TH, AND THE PLACE WAS RENTED BY NOON. LEE PAID ON 4907 TO GET UTILITIES PUT ON, THOUGH HE MOVED INTO 4905. (SEE MY BOOK AS TO THE WHY OF THAT)...

WE INTERVIEWED THAT AFTERNOON AND WERE BOTH HIRED THE SAME DAY TO STANDARD COFFEE, A SUBSIDIARY OF REILY'S, A VERY SMALL OFFICE, WHERE WE WERE FOR A WEEK BEFORE GETTING TRANSFERRED TO REILY.

RESEARCHERS THROUGH THE DECADES MISSED THIS FACT, THAT LEE WAS WORKING FOR STANDARD COFFEE (WITH ME) FOR A WEEK, AS WC RECORDS ACTUALLY POINT OUT, BUT WERE IGNORED...MORE DETAILS IN BOOK...

LEE KNEW WHERE HE WAS GOING TO LIVE AT LEAST EARLIER THAN MAY 4, AS THAT'S WHEN HE MOVED ME INTO MY APARTMENT. MY ACCOUNT THEREFORE SUPPORT'S EDISEN'S AS TO A PREDETERMINED ADDRESS FOR LHO.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE OBSERVATIONS OF MY PSY OPS EXPERT:

[snip]...

So basically it is important for anyone investigating their story not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", just because the water gets a little dirty.

Indeed...Moreover, don't throw the "bathwater [evidence] out with the baby" simply becuse the "baby" may have made human errors! Evidence is evidence irresective of the "baby" responsible for supplying it.

Judyth has been subjected to threats and libel, even though she is a documented witness to LHO in NOLA in the summer of 1963. Yes, her situation is complex; the 'research community' that did everything to discredit and destroy her while then blaming her for the fact that she had no choice but to leave the US to survive, and was hounded even while in asylum definitely plays a part in this. It seems that you too may be comfortable blaming the victim of the attacks rather than acknowledging the reason for them in the first place, which was most likely protection at all costs of Marina's testimony to the WCR and, thus, the WCR itself, not to mention keeping the doors shut to the underbelly of the assassination in NOLA that summer.

You could, if you wished, take Judyth's statements and compare them with those of Adele Edison who was allowed to come forward and give her testimony. If you are objective, you may see eery coincidences and other eye-opening leads that may help underline the significance of what each of them has to say.

Except that if Judyth really was a victim of crimes and being pursued to the ends of the earth and the source of libel cases being filed there would be additional official records and suspects, but there isn't.

While some independent researchers I trust are getting new information, documents and new witnesses from information they say JVB has provided, and it is panning out, I still haven't seen it, other than the previously published but uncited book that refers to the Koon Kreek Klub, one nugget that I had never heard of before.

And there is no comparison betwen the two, despite their apparently similar medical research background. Dr. Edisen just spent a week in Washington D.C. at her own expense, not to call attention to her story, promote a book, sell her movie rights or increase the references to her on the internet, but rather she lobbied Congressmen to fullfill their responsibilities and oversee the JFK Act, release the JFK assassination records and determine what became of the records that were destroyed and are missing.

Over the years she has quietly given us everything she knows and has led us to dozens of records, witnesses and suspects, including SAIC NO SS John W. Rice, FBI liason to SS Orrin Bartlett, Dr./Col. Jose Rivera, Dr. Lamana and others we are still researching and will be for many more years. And she now has nothing to fear in that she has told us, and testified before the ARRB, and we now have the additional records obtained by the ARRB, so we've taken her information beyond even what she knew, so she's no longer vulnerable.

And I insist that this thread not intermingle JVB's story with any other unconnected witness, as I think that if JVB is tangled up with psych-warriors then one purpose would be to pollute what we know to be the truth.

BK

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

MORE COMMENTS FROM JUDYTH ABOUT EDISEN:

I do believe Edisen is not criticized because she can be used to support an MKULRA job done on Lee ("Kill the Chief")...I see this as planting a plausible deniability that see eye aye had nothing to do with what might have been a way to suggest KGB mind control on LHO, or even to blame the ONI and get it as far as possible from see eye aye involvement....

However she is being used, she is being used, as we are kept apart and she is NEVER attacked, even though some elements of her story are totally wacky, yet accepted on every point, not a peep from McAdams...Not a peep that she says she was being fed LSD, etc...Nobody looks up Rivera, everyone refuses to link what I know with her...hmmmm.

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON A POST BY BILL KELLY:

KELLY IS THE FIRST PERSON TO HAVE INTERVIEWED HER AND WRITTEN ABOUT HER...HE RECENTLY REVISED HER STORY, TOO. EDISEN WAS VERY EXCITED ABOUT HEARING ABOUT ME AND WROTE ME A VERY NICE EMAIL. THEN SHE WAS TOLD I WAS A 'HOAX' ...AND REFUSED TO REPLY TO ANY MORE EMAILS.

PEOPLE TELLING HER I AM WORTHLESS HAVE KEPT US APART A DECADE, I GUESS FOREVER...YET MY ACCOUNT SUPPORTS HERS, AND HERS SUPPORTS MINE, AS LEE MOVED ME INTO 1032 MARENGO ON MAY 4 AND SAID A THAT TIME HE WOULD BE MOVING INTO AN APARTMENT ALREADY CHOSEN.

ON MAY 7, LEE TOOK ME THERE AND ASKED THE MANAGER THERE TO PUT OUT A 'TO LET' SIGN. HE PLANNED TO HAVE A WOMAN NAMED GLADYS -- A GOSSIPY OLD FRIEND OF HIS MOTHER'S -- DRIVE HIM THAT DIRECTION SO HE COULD 'POINT OUT' THE SIGN.

LEE MET WITH 'GLADYS' AT 8 AM, AS THEY WERE FINISHING BREAKFAST THERE, BEFORE REILY'S OFFICES EVEN OPENED FOR INTERVIEWS THAT DAY, MAY 9TH, AND THE PLACE WAS RENTED BY NOON. LEE PAID ON 4907 TO GET UTILITIES PUT ON, THOUGH HE MOVED INTO 4905. (SEE MY BOOK AS TO THE WHY OF THAT)...

WE INTERVIEWED THAT AFTERNOON AND WERE BOTH HIRED THE SAME DAY TO STANDARD COFFEE, A SUBSIDIARY OF REILY'S, A VERY SMALL OFFICE, WHERE WE WERE FOR A WEEK BEFORE GETTING TRANSFERRED TO REILY.

RESEARCHERS THROUGH THE DECADES MISSED THIS FACT, THAT LEE WAS WORKING FOR STANDARD COFFEE (WITH ME) FOR A WEEK, AS WC RECORDS ACTUALLY POINT OUT, BUT WERE IGNORED...MORE DETAILS IN BOOK...

LEE KNEW WHERE HE WAS GOING TO LIVE AT LEAST EARLIER THAN MAY 4, AS THAT'S WHEN HE MOVED ME INTO MY APARTMENT. MY ACCOUNT THEREFORE SUPPORT'S EDISEN'S AS TO A PREDETERMINED ADDRESS FOR LHO.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE OBSERVATIONS OF MY PSY OPS EXPERT:

[snip]...

So basically it is important for anyone investigating their story not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", just because the water gets a little dirty.

Indeed...Moreover, don't throw the "bathwater [evidence] out with the baby" simply becuse the "baby" may have made human errors! Evidence is evidence irresective of the "baby" responsible for supplying it.

Judyth has been subjected to threats and libel, even though she is a documented witness to LHO in NOLA in the summer of 1963. Yes, her situation is complex; the 'research community' that did everything to discredit and destroy her while then blaming her for the fact that she had no choice but to leave the US to survive, and was hounded even while in asylum definitely plays a part in this. It seems that you too may be comfortable blaming the victim of the attacks rather than acknowledging the reason for them in the first place, which was most likely protection at all costs of Marina's testimony to the WCR and, thus, the WCR itself, not to mention keeping the doors shut to the underbelly of the assassination in NOLA that summer.

You could, if you wished, take Judyth's statements and compare them with those of Adele Edison who was allowed to come forward and give her testimony. If you are objective, you may see eery coincidences and other eye-opening leads that may help underline the significance of what each of them has to say.

Except that if Judyth really was a victim of crimes and being pursued to the ends of the earth and the source of libel cases being filed there would be additional official records and suspects, but there isn't.

While some independent researchers I trust are getting new information, documents and new witnesses from information they say JVB has provided, and it is panning out, I still haven't seen it, other than the previously published but uncited book that refers to the Koon Kreek Klub, one nugget that I had never heard of before.

And there is no comparison betwen the two, despite their apparently similar medical research background. Dr. Edisen just spent a week in Washington D.C. at her own expense, not to call attention to her story, promote a book, sell her movie rights or increase the references to her on the internet, but rather she lobbied Congressmen to fullfill their responsibilities and oversee the JFK Act, release the JFK assassination records and determine what became of the records that were destroyed and are missing.

Over the years she has quietly given us everything she knows and has led us to dozens of records, witnesses and suspects, including SAIC NO SS John W. Rice, FBI liason to SS Orrin Bartlett, Dr./Col. Jose Rivera, Dr. Lamana and others we are still researching and will be for many more years. And she now has nothing to fear in that she has told us, and testified before the ARRB, and we now have the additional records obtained by the ARRB, so we've taken her information beyond even what she knew, so she's no longer vulnerable.

And I insist that this thread not intermingle JVB's story with any other unconnected witness, as I think that if JVB is tangled up with psych-warriors then one purpose would be to pollute what we know to be the truth.

BK

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS WITH A POST ESPECIALLY FOR JACK WHITE:

[NOTE: Lola is my webmaster and assists me in preparing Judyth's

posts for publication, especially by sending me the right links to use

in posting. Judyth has mentioned Lola's name twice in this post, and

they have been engaged in separate correspondence of their own.]

LINKS TO 'HENRY'/'HARVEY' NAMES IN SECRET FILES FOR LHO

I look forward to investigating more closely a thread about how variants of Lee H. Oswald's names have been linked to files connected to Lee. This correlates well with information he gave to me, which is briefly mentioned in my book, but has been more extensively described in Livingstone's unauthorized publication of my larger book -- a publication I could not authorize due to the fact that I was not allowed to see the final rendition before it went to print. The book contains a great deal of supporting evidence, but a few errors did not get corrected as requested.

Livingstone, however, was ill.

Having said that, I would like to present some information to the research community in hopes that they can derive more information about Lee Oswald and his other names on file... I did not know at the time what 'cards' were and I still do not know what 'keys' are -- but Lee mentioned both, as I have tried to describe, best as I can, below. The conversation occurred a long time ago. However, I used to have an eidetic memory. My short term memory is not good since being hit in Dallas, but my long term memory is still generally intact.

I have placed a great deal of the book in dialogue form, which is primarily how I remembered it. The “he said"/"she said” means of offering the same information is very tedious and takes more space. The reconstruction of dialogue is acceptable in what is called "creative non-fiction", a genre of historical non-fiction which is classified as historically acceptable, under the condition that the reconstructed conversations strictly follow historic fact and events, to which conditions I have adhered.

The following information is for the research community, hoping it will help clarify things and open up new leads:

Lee said the opera by Tschaivoksky based on Aleksandar Pushkin's "The Queen of Spades" ("Pikova Dama") had a libretto that he would pick up in the theatre at Minsk and that it had to do with one of 'three cards'... The libretto had something circled in it that led him to look under a certain seat at the theatre for instructions....

Lee said he was required memorize the opera because various phrases would be related to various places he had to be....or maybe where to meet somebody... I can no longer remember...

He said that he had "three cards" and that the "cards" were also used in Mexico City as well as in the USSR. He even used "Pikova Dama" somehow in Mexico City. I do not know any other details on that.

"Pikova Dama" -- "The Queen of Spades" -- was an opera Lee was required to memorize. There are cards that are thrown into the air in the opera. The printed programs had cards on them. Now, of course, this is not the kind of cards mentioned in the articles I saw in the thread. But Lee said he 'had three cards' in the USSR. Later he told me he 'had three cards' in Mexico City.

I believe this is different from the circled cards on the libretto.

Lee said that he used many names. He mentioned 'Henry' to me as well and said it had been used by secretaries to create new files on him and that he hated his name 'Harvey'... He hated the name 'Henry', too...

He told me he was afraid of 'Jesus' -- I now know that was Angleton -- and went through considerable trouble to hide the fact that he had been interrogated in Moscow. In fact, hatey warned him in Moscow never to mention any interrogation, because he might then come under suspicion, having survived, if he ever returned to the US.

Lee said he acted as if he knew not a single word of Russian. He said he was weak from loss of blood and they forced him to stand a long time and would hit him if he moved.

Finally, they considered him an idiot and then gave him a very nice apartment, but would not let him go to college as he had desired. Lee had wanted to infiltrate the college systems and was bitterly disappointed at having no chance at that.

He and Ferrie told me that chess piece moves such as Queen-Knight were used for some projects of some kind. He said that the name 'Hidell' was a 'project name' associated with funds at his disposal...and at the disposal of some others as well...

Lee knew Cuba like the back of his hand, every single mountain by name, every village...I have no doubt that he could have been there...

I have told people ever since 1999 that Lee even knew the rivers, names of mountains, and all the government officials' names going back to 1950. He said he loved maps and had no problem memorizing such details.

He had continued this memorizing in the US after he returned, and occasionally refreshed his memory at the libraries in exams and New Orleans...

Of course, his stuff for FPCC came from the CIA -- I mean the booklets and pamphlets, not the flyers. There was no real 'fight' either.

== It was Lee who was shoved around and he did not resist at all. == Ruth Paine lied and said he put his hands over his face to protect his face... She wasn't there. Lee told me he had his hands behind his back and dared Bringuier to hit him -- which Bringuier proceeded to do.

But it was a sham from beginning to end. Bringuier dared to keep Lee's beloved Marine manual and some few years ago he had it for sale on eBay. I don’t know how he can live with himself. He knows the truth.

This information can provide you insight, perhaps, into which threads are true. Lee said at the theatre in Minsk he came to showings of the opera many times, and under a seat a message was affixed with wax. (I think tape was scarce in Minsk back then.)...

Anyway, I remember with grief how Lee went from seat to seat in the Texas Theatre, starting upstairs in the balcony. I believe he was told to go there.

----------------------------

Lee told me about Mind control out at Atsugi, and he was not involved in that part of it, but one of his friends who was executed. One of his friends lost his nerve and did not finish his training as an agent... And they put him in that MK program at Atsugi to erase his memory, or whatever, and he supposedly committed suicide. Lee thought he was executed.

Attach the Death Angel at Atsugi that Lee told me about...They had some close fellowship there while being trained... I was able to locate this photo after much searching... It no longer can be found anywhere... This was very, very hard for me to find.

-------------------------

Lola, believe it or not, Lee realized he was going to die by July. He was already in the plots and saw what was coming. He saw that either side was better off if he was dead.

Think about it:

James Jesus Angleton was his boss overseas (I knew him only as "Jesus" but it has to be the same person--Lee told me that 'ironically' "Jesus" was in charge of his life while he was in the USSR and when he returned, and that "Jesus" was not in the Bible.

I learned later this was the ruthless Angleton.

Lee said he had been interrogated and successfully made it through that, but could never tell "Jesus" because then he could have been tortured by US or 'vanished.' That's where I got the term from ('vanished').

You see, he was never fully trusted, he said, because he returned alive from the USSR.

And the USSR, the longer it perceived he was alive, might go through and double check all he had done. Once he risked his life to go to Moscow. He also spoke to Powers who was shot down (U2 incident) but I failed to ask if it was in person or by phone, darn it...

Lola, we became very close.

Monk...I agree with all that you say EXCEPT that you think "Jack White does not believe that the evidence

is worthy of fair evaluation and needs to be dismissed out of hand." That does not express my position.

If you want, I will email you personally some of my exchanges with Jim regarding my position. However,

I do not want to post these, since that gives excuse for continuation of this thread, which I believe has

outlived its useful life.

Thanks.

Jack

Pamela, I am a Judyth supporter, in case you were unaware. I stood literally alone on JFKresearch Forum in defense of her being allowed to present her testimony without harassment. I caught a lot of flak from two of my best researcher friends, Jack White and Rich DellaRosa, among others, for my efforts. Understand, I stood by her even under considerable fire--and I would do so again.

However, there is a difference between my:

1) standing up for a "fair an unbiased" evaluation of her evidence no matter where that evidence leads --

and my

2) unequivocal conclusion that everything she says is 100% accurate and relevant for the reasons that she believes it is so

I will continue to argue (with Jack, for example) that the evidence is worthy of fair evaluation and need not be dismissed out of hand.

But, I will also argue that my evaluation of the evidence will not be unduly influenced by those who buy her story "hook, line, sinker, rod, reel, boat, trailer, and trailer hitch..." thank you very much, but I have my own mind and thoughts.

You are entitled to yours and I to mine.

PS: What do you mean: (I) might be "comfortable blaming the victim"? -- Where did you get that fantasy? Totally off topic. Moreover, your conclusion that the attacks were/are due to an OSWALD related matter is subjective, and GOOD FOR YOU! At least you have an opinion. But, I don't agree--I don't know the truth, but I don't agree with that evaluation. I believe the likelihood is that the harassment is due to non-LHO related activity.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE OBSERVATIONS OF MY PSY OPS EXPERT:

[snip]...

So basically it is important for anyone investigating their story not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", just because the water gets a little dirty.

Indeed...Moreover, don't throw the "bathwater [evidence] out with the baby" simply becuse the "baby" may have made human errors! Evidence is evidence irresective of the "baby" responsible for supplying it.

Judyth has been subjected to threats and libel, even though she is a documented witness to LHO in NOLA in the summer of 1963. Yes, her situation is complex; the 'research community' that did everything to discredit and destroy her while then blaming her for the fact that she had no choice but to leave the US to survive, and was hounded even while in asylum definitely plays a part in this. It seems that you too may be comfortable blaming the victim of the attacks rather than acknowledging the reason for them in the first place, which was most likely protection at all costs of Marina's testimony to the WCR and, thus, the WCR itself, not to mention keeping the doors shut to the underbelly of the assassination in NOLA that summer.

You could, if you wished, take Judyth's statements and compare them with those of Adele Edison who was allowed to come forward and give her testimony. If you are objective, you may see eery coincidences and other eye-opening leads that may help underline the significance of what each of them has to say.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

ADDENDUM TO THE LAST POST FROM JUDYTH FOR JACK:

NOTE: Lola had asked Judyth for clarification about the final part of

this post, which has now arrived. So I am adding it for completeness.

Replace the original from the image of the document and continue with

the following:

You see, he was never fully trusted, he said, because he returned alive from the USSR.

And the USSR, perceiving that he was alive, might go through and double check all he had done. Once he risked his life to go to Moscow. He also spoke to Powers who was shot down (U2 incident) but I failed to ask if it was in person or by phone, darn it...

Lee and I became very close. I never could hear enough. He was not a talkative man, but eventually that changed as we grew closer. What impressed me the most was his appreciation of Kennedy and his loyalty to him. I had come from hostile anti-Kennedy territory in Florida, with anti-Castroites among my college friends, and he convinced me of JFK's courage and great capacity to make a difference in the country.

He despised LBJ and Nixon. He saw George Smathers, whom I had praised, as a traitor to Kennedy because Smathers was a segregationist who cow-towed constantly to LBJ. So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

I am grateful to Abraham Bolden for mentioning "Lee" as the informant to the FBI who saved Kennedy in Chicago. Lee told me he had worked hard to save Kennedy and had succeeded in one instance, which I reported to Shackelford and Platzman in 1999, as well as to "60 Minutes". Bolden confirmed that a "Lee" saved JFK from assassination in Chicago.

This makes sense to me, as Dr. Mary Sherman had many contacts in Chicago, coming originally from University of Chicago, and he said he relied on contacts to get the message through. He also dared to send some death threats as Dallas approached, hoping to get more security for JFK.

He was also present at the Stevenson UN Day event in Dallas when Stevenson was physically attacked by being spat upon and hit with a signboard during his speech. Lee had helped as one of the demonstrators and hoped the incident would increase security levels on JFK, for he knew if JFK made it to Dallas, he would have difficulty getting out alive unless extraordinary measures were taken.

He had penetrated (or was lured) into what he described as an assassination ring. The last meeting I knew of occurred on Sunday evening, the week before he assassination. He said he had never seen the individual he met a that time before. He wondered if they met so the character would be able to kill him on the 22nd...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 37 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB

Edited March 22, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Greg Burnham]

...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 3 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB

Jim,

I think there's a typo in the above (in BOLD) --

Thanks for posting all of this material, Jim. I do think it is relevant enough to be studied. Very complex, but fascinating too. I look forward to reading the book.

GO_SECURE

monk

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Good catch, Monk! It should have read, "37 1/2 hours before the assassination". Thanks for letting me know. Best wishes! Jim

...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 3 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB

Jim,

I think there's a typo in the above (in BOLD) --

Thanks for posting all of this material, Jim. I do think it is relevant enough to be studied. Very complex, but fascinating too. I look forward to reading the book.

GO_SECURE

monk

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks Jim,

Just as a point of interest to those who claim Judyth's story constantly changes, in this case, they're wrong. That's the exact timeframe [for the telephone call] that she told me nearly a decade ago. She told me that the call started before midnight (about 11:00 - 11:30pm) on Wednesday (the night of the 20th) and ended at about 1:00am on Thursday (the morning of the 21st).

GO_SECURE

monk

Good catch, Monk! It should have read, "37 1/2 hours before the assassination". Thanks for letting me know. Best wishes! Jim

...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 3 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB

Jim,

I think there's a typo in the above (in BOLD) --

Thanks for posting all of this material, Jim. I do think it is relevant enough to be studied. Very complex, but fascinating too. I look forward to reading the book.

GO_SECURE

monk

Edited March 23, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Kathleen Collins]

I think this is the longest thread ever held in John Simkin's forum. I am skimming it, so I apologize if this question has been asked already.

So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

JVB

What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life? How stupid was Oswald? The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious? Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?

Now, what did he do to save Kennedy? Stand there drinking a coke? If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting.

Kathy C

[William Kelly]

ADDENDUM TO THE LAST POST FROM JUDYTH FOR JACK:

NOTE: Lola had asked Judyth for clarification about the final part of

this post, which has now arrived. So I am adding it for completeness.

Replace the original from the image of the document and continue with

the following:

You see, he was never fully trusted, he said, because he returned alive from the USSR.

And the USSR, perceiving that he was alive, might go through and double check all he had done. Once he risked his life to go to Moscow. He also spoke to Powers who was shot down (U2 incident) but I failed to ask if it was in person or by phone, darn it...

Lee and I became very close. I never could hear enough. He was not a talkative man, but eventually that changed as we grew closer. What impressed me the most was his appreciation of Kennedy and his loyalty to him. I had come from hostile anti-Kennedy territory in Florida, with anti-Castroites among my college friends, and he convinced me of JFK's courage and great capacity to make a difference in the country.

He despised LBJ and Nixon. He saw George Smathers, whom I had praised, as a traitor to Kennedy because Smathers was a segregationist who cow-towed constantly to LBJ. So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

I am grateful to Abraham Bolden for mentioning "Lee" as the informant to the FBI who saved Kennedy in Chicago. Lee told me he had worked hard to save Kennedy and had succeeded in one instance, which I reported to Shackelford and Platzman in 1999, as well as to "60 Minutes". Bolden confirmed that a "Lee" saved JFK from assassination in Chicago.

This makes sense to me, as Dr. Mary Sherman had many contacts in Chicago, coming originally from University of Chicago, and he said he relied on contacts to get the message through. He also dared to send some death threats as Dallas approached, hoping to get more security for JFK.

He was also present at the Stevenson UN Day event in Dallas when Stevenson was physically attacked by being spat upon and hit with a signboard during his speech. Lee had helped as one of the demonstrators and hoped the incident would increase security levels on JFK, for he knew if JFK made it to Dallas, he would have difficulty getting out alive unless extraordinary measures were taken.

He had penetrated (or was lured) into what he described as an assassination ring. The last meeting I knew of occurred on Sunday evening, the week before he assassination. He said he had never seen the individual he met a that time before. He wondered if they met so the character would be able to kill him on the 22nd...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 37 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB

If the above bogus document is part of the JVB story, then she is most definately part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation that is being conducted by one Gregory Douglas, one which we are very familiar with and one that is meant to decieve and confuse.

BK

[Jack White]

I had vowed not to waste more time on the JVB story, but I cannot let this go unchallenged. It covers the

same ground which was disputed years ago on the DellaRosa forum.

With due respect to Greg and Jim...the latest is not the way I remember it...from about 8 years ago on Rich's forum.

Her story at that time...and my memory from that far back may be faulty, and Rich is no longer available to

confirm, here is how I remember it, and arguments about it led to JVB eventually being banished from the

forum for abusive behavior:

JVB's story then (as I recall) was that LHO and JVB conversed EVERY night by phone. He would go across Beckley

Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for

hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall. Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

At that time, pay phone calls were timed by the minute, and were very expensive, especially long distance, and

JVB had LHO spending huge sums on pay phone calls. Then she told of a very long call the night of November 21,

lasting past midnight. This was countered with the fact that LHO was in Irving and not at the rooming house,

and his pre-assassination night was well documented. When reminded that LHO could not call from the all-night

laundromat, JVB was adamant that the long midnight call was made, and that he found another pay phone in

Irving. For this to have happened, LHO would have had to get out of bed without waking Marina, leave the

Paine house secretly, walk to find a pay phone in the residential neighborhood, talk a long time, return

to the Paine house, and sneak back into bed without awakening Marina or children. This is how I remember

the forum exchanges from years ago. JVB became very abusive to Rich and some other researchers after

about nine months, and Rich finally banished JVB and her supporters (at that time mostly Martin Shackleford,

Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar and several others). My details may not be totally accurate, but this is the gist

that I remember from those long ago arguments. In the aftermath of the banishments, someone with an ISP

in Amsterdam hacked Rich's forum twice, each time causing it to go down for several days, and losing earlier

messages, including the JVB exchanges.

The phone call story seemed preposterous to some on the forum then, and I still find it difficult to swallow. I feel I

must speak up again, because this same argument I thought was settled years ago, and now it surfaces again.

Jack

ADDENDUM: During the midnight phone call, LHO told JVB that JFK would be killed on Friday, as the story goes.

This caused forum members to charge JVB with being an accessory to the assassination, if she knew in

advance of the attempt and did not try to contact authorities. This led to various accusations and counter

accusations, as I recall.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jack White

[Greg Burnham]

Hi Jack,

I have a slightly different recollection. As I recall, there were multilple posts made by an individual (who is also a member here) who shall remain nameless, unless she chooses to identify herself, that were EXTREMELY hostile--to put it mildly. That individual was also banned from the forum. Now, who drew first blood and who drew it deepest? IMO, it wasn't Judyth.

As for the alleged phone call, I found it--ummmm-- "a WHO GIVES A DAMN" issue...I don't care about it at all. He wept? So what! So she says...yada yada yada-- I have no interest in sentimental bullxxxx. Sorry, but that's just how I feel about it. This is no longer a "love story" Judyth (if it ever was) to anyone but YOU! -- But, if it's HISTORY -- then I'm interested. That is its only value to researchers. When it becomes a soap opera instead...--WHO CARES?

In my above post, I didn't claim that the phone call was something I believed--I merely pointed out that her current account of that event is consistent with what she originally told me in 2001. On the other hand, people talk on the phone--and even in '63, sometimes at great expense because it was the only way. If we assume they did talk (which I have no problem accepting) still: WHO CARES? Not me. Not even a little bit. "He wept" -- So what!

However, I think that my personal revulsion to the details of her (love) story (be it a real or contrived story) should not prejudice me or anyone else to a point that dismisses the remainder of her EVIDENCE out of hand.

IMO, her story has a lot of relevance to things OTHER THAN the JFK assassination. If there is JFK related relevance, I am still having a lot of difficulty finding it.

GO_SECURE

monk

Addendum: Jack, I don't remember the part about LHO telling JVB that JFK was going to be killed on the phone. Perhaps Jim can verify what she NOW says, in light of that. I will go back to archives and see if I have it there, you might be right.

I had vowed not to waste more time on the JVB story, but I cannot let this go unchallenged. It covers the

same ground which was disputed years ago on the DellaRosa forum.

With due respect to Greg and Jim...the latest is not the way I remember it...from about 8 years ago on Rich's forum.

Her story at that time...and my memory from that far back may be faulty, and Rich is no longer available to

confirm, here is how I remember it, and arguments about it led to JVB eventually being banished from the

forum for abusive behavior:

JVB's story then (as I recall) was that LHO and JVB conversed EVERY night by phone. He would go across Beckley

Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for

hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall. Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

At that time, pay phone calls were timed by the minute, and were very expensive, especially long distance, and

JVB had LHO spending huge sums on pay phone calls. Then she told of a very long call the night of November 21,

lasting past midnight. This was countered with the fact that LHO was in Irving and not at the rooming house,

and his pre-assassination night was well documented. When reminded that LHO could not call from the all-night

laundromat, JVB was adamant that the long midnight call was made, and that he found another pay phone in

Irving. For this to have happened, LHO would have had to get out of bed without waking Marina, leave the

Paine house secretly, walk to find a pay phone in the residential neighborhood, talk a long time, return

to the Paine house, and sneak back into bed without awakening Marina or children. This is how I remember

the forum exchanges from years ago. JVB became very abusive to Rich and some other researchers after

about nine months, and Rich finally banished JVB and her supporters (at that time mostly Martin Shackleford,

Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar and several others). My details may not be totally accurate, but this is the gist

that I remember from those long ago arguments. In the aftermath of the banishments, someone with an ISP

in Amsterdam hacked Rich's forum twice, each time causing it to go down for several days, and losing earlier

messages, including the JVB exchanges.

The phone call story seemed preposterous to some on the forum then, and I still find it difficult to swallow. I feel I

must speak up again, because this same argument I thought was settled years ago, and now it surfaces again.

Jack

Edited March 23, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Jack White]

Thanks, Monk...my sentiments exactly! WHO CARES about the alleged "love story". That is stuff for Oprah and the tabloids.

I prefaced my remarks that those are my memories...and they may not be entirely accurate...but that is how I remember it.

Things I am pretty sure of:

1. The nightly phone calls

2. The 24-hour laundromat across from rooming house

3. LHO using a pay phone there to call every night

4. The midnight extended call with LHO telling about the planned attempt

A. I recall it being on Thursday night

B. I recall that it was from the laundromat

C. I recall that this was disputed

I am fairly sure of 1-2-3-4 above. I am a little less sure about A-B-C.

Thanks for your response. I feel the same. If JVB can add evidence to the case,

that would be great. So far, in many years, I have seen NO evidence that has

a bearing on what happened. The "love story" and "looking like Marina" are

irrelevancies. With LHO under tight surveillance by his handlers, I doubt that

most of the events could have occurred without reports being written or that

LHO was seeing a woman. I do think the young JVB MAY have been some sort

of low-level CIA asset, involved in some other operation than JFK. Reily Coffee

was known to employ numerous persons "in a holding pattern" before other

government assignments. I think it is relevant that no known document exists

regarding JVB.

Jack

PS...I forgot to answer your first paragraph. Yes, she is still at it. We all know

who you refer to. But I am forced to say that she seems to back up what she

says with believable documentation in most cases. Now is this person a paid

disinformation agent assigned to the JVB case? I have seen no sign of it, but

that is for every person to decide for themselves.

Hi Jack,

I have a slightly different recollection. As I recall, there were multilple posts made by an individual (who is also a member here) who shall remain nameless, unless she chooses to identify herself, that were EXTREMELY hostile--to put it mildly. That individual was also banned from the forum. Now, who drew first blood and who drew it deepest? IMO, it wasn't Judyth.

As for the alleged phone call, I found it--ummmm-- "a WHO GIVES A DAMN" issue...I don't care about it at all. He wept? So what! So she says...yada yada yada-- I have no interest in sentimental bullxxxx. Sorry, but that's just how I feel about it. This is no longer a "love story" Judyth (if it ever was) to anyone but YOU! -- But, if it's HISTORY -- then I'm interested. That is its only value to researchers. When it becomes a soap opera instead...--WHO CARES?

In my above post, I didn't claim that the phone call was something I believed--I merely pointed out that her current account of that event is consistent with what she originally told me in 2001. On the other hand, people talk on the phone--and even in '63, sometimes at great expense because it was the only way. If we assume they did talk (which I have no problem accepting) still: WHO CARES? Not me. Not even a little bit. "He wept" -- So what!

However, I think that my personal revulsion to the details of her (love) story (be it a real or contrived story) should not prejudice me or anyone else to a point that dismisses the remainder of her EVIDENCE out of hand.

IMO, her story has a lot of relevance to things OTHER THAN the JFK assassination.

GO_SECURE

monk

Addendum: Jack, I don't remember the part about LHO telling JVB that JFK was going to be killed on the phone. Perhaps Jim can verify what she NOW says, in light of that. I will go back to archives and see if I have it there, you might be right.

I had vowed not to waste more time on the JVB story, but I cannot let this go unchallenged. It covers the

same ground which was disputed years ago on the DellaRosa forum.

With due respect to Greg and Jim...the latest is not the way I remember it...from about 8 years ago on Rich's forum.

Her story at that time...and my memory from that far back may be faulty, and Rich is no longer available to

confirm, here is how I remember it, and arguments about it led to JVB eventually being banished from the

forum for abusive behavior:

JVB's story then (as I recall) was that LHO and JVB conversed EVERY night by phone. He would go across Beckley

Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for

hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall. Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

At that time, pay phone calls were timed by the minute, and were very expensive, especially long distance, and

JVB had LHO spending huge sums on pay phone calls. Then she told of a very long call the night of November 21,

lasting past midnight. This was countered with the fact that LHO was in Irving and not at the rooming house,

and his pre-assassination night was well documented. When reminded that LHO could not call from the all-night

laundromat, JVB was adamant that the long midnight call was made, and that he found another pay phone in

Irving. For this to have happened, LHO would have had to get out of bed without waking Marina, leave the

Paine house secretly, walk to find a pay phone in the residential neighborhood, talk a long time, return

to the Paine house, and sneak back into bed without awakening Marina or children. This is how I remember

the forum exchanges from years ago. JVB became very abusive to Rich and some other researchers after

about nine months, and Rich finally banished JVB and her supporters (at that time mostly Martin Shackleford,

Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar and several others). My details may not be totally accurate, but this is the gist

that I remember from those long ago arguments. In the aftermath of the banishments, someone with an ISP

in Amsterdam hacked Rich's forum twice, each time causing it to go down for several days, and losing earlier

messages, including the JVB exchanges.

The phone call story seemed preposterous to some on the forum then, and I still find it difficult to swallow. I feel I

must speak up again, because this same argument I thought was settled years ago, and now it surfaces again.

Jack

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jack White

[Dixie Dea]

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie

[Greg Burnham]

Hi Dixie,

I'm relatively certain that I met with Judyth in early 2001. This was BEFORE she came on the forum for the first time. I could be wrong about the year without checking my notes, but I am certain that I met with her prior to her joining the forum. I agree that she was not banned, but rather chose to disengage from the xxxx storm. You are correct about Martin, as well as Vernon.

I agree with your assessment that "she wasn't abusive" but was abused. I found it quite uncharacteristic of the JFKresearch Forum, but it happened.

I don't think that the three of us (you, me and Jack) are referring to the same person who was banned. I refer to someone who is not as well known, and hasn't been suspected of disinfo. This person crossed WAY over the line regarding Judyth, but was actually banned regarding something else, although it was a cumulative effect...

GO_SECURE

monk

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie