Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Greg Burnham]

Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.

Jack

And even if true, his INTELLIGENCE and BRIGHTNESS were never challenged in this thread!

I never disputed the form of intelligence that Judyth is claiming he possessed and is now defending! I expressed doubt as to his WISDOM -- his ability to respond as someone who had LIFE EXPERIENCE--which is the other type of "intellect" that cannot be explained away so easily.

GO_SECURE

monk

[Jack White]

Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.

Jack

And even if true, his INTELLIGENCE and BRIGHTNESS were never challenged in this thread!

I never disputed the form of intelligence that Judyth is claiming he possessed and is now defending! I expressed doubt as to his WISDOM -- his ability to respond as someone who had LIFE EXPERIENCE--which is the other type of "intellect" that cannot be explained away so easily.

GO_SECURE

monk

I agree, Monk. Both of them were DUMB not to know that if they knew of a plot to

murder the president IN ADVANCE and failed to report it that they WERE ACCESSORIES

BEFORE THE FACT in a case of murder. Accessories can be equally guilty as those

who commit the crime.

Jack

[Doug Weldon]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO GREG BURNHAM:

[NOTE: Why would anyone be surprised if Judyth's recollections involve a romanticized image of of Oswald? The

only source of which I am aware for the information that Lee Harvey Oswald was dyslexic is Judyth Vary Baker.]

ABOUT LEE'S WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE FOR HIS AGE

It is obvious that Lee had his flaws and faults. I do not dwell on them as much as others because I have tried to present the other side of the coin.

1) Lee did not use much Russian in the USSR...Yet he was fluent....And Marina was impressed with his speaking abilities...But when he arrived, he actually pulled it off that he knew very little, and they believed him....

This is intelligent behaviour for a young man still 19 when entering Russia.

2) Listen to Lee's live radio interviews where he mentions the economic systems of Latin American countries, and elsewhere, and he is one against three in that 'debate' -- He is 23 at the time and is not enrolled in college...His common environment is theoretically in Reily's coffee plant, oiling machines...But please listen to him....

3) Ignore the dyslexia and look at his word choices -- including, "I emphatically deny these charges!" -- a word choice under pressure, exhaustion and having been beaten -- A mature choice of words for one so young....

4) Propaganda goes far to hide the truth, but glimmers of his intelligence still survive -- His favourite opera was "Pikova Dama"... Wait a minute -- what is y-o-u-r favourite opera, Greg? Jim? Pamela?

His favorite music? Classical music.

His favorite game? When others of his age and income level are playing poker, his favorite game is chess.

His favorite reading? Karl Marx, John Locke, Russian classics, 1984, science fiction

His favourite poet? Pushkin. Ever read Pushkin?

Have you read Oswald's "Atheian System"? Atheian means divested of any connections to religions...If rewritten free of dyslexian misspellings, it's a good bit of writing about an ideal political system rejecting both communism and capitalism... Not bad for a 23 year old.

5) His mother stated he taught himself to read before he started school.

6) You can't judge his intelligence by letters he was asked to write. They were not meant to reflect a brilliance that might have made him look suspicious to the communist party, etc.

So much 'bad' has been written about Lee that it has pretty well sifted down to everybody who did not know him. I presented a paper to the Popular Culture Association some years back -- after which my university forbade me to go to any more conventions or publish any more papers. I was 'punished' for writing it. But I intend to present a distillation of it to those forums which would allow it. Along with Lee's facility for Russian, his selection of books, when properly explained, bespeaks of an inquiring and intelligent mind.

Why is this important to know? Because Oswald knew more than you think about what was going on. The problem was, he didn't find out in time to be able to get out of it. It is healthy to debate these things without rancour. I also have to say that there were a lot of things we did not know. No doubt of that. Hindsight is so nice!

JVB

Cogent thoughts that go to the heart of the matter, in my opinion.

When Oswald's death was announced, it was clear that the alleged assassin would take certain secrets

to the grave. At that time most people probably didn't realize just how many enduring secrets that would be.

Thanks, Mike. I find it interesting that we sometimes forget (or neglect to remember) the obvious significance of this man's age: He was ONLY 24 years old! Imagine that...it was one of us? Hard to imagine--reliving my 24th year in his shoes or even in my own shoes for that matter! Yet, he--of such limited life experience--we presume went to the grave with extraordinary secrets about the crime of the century! Or, at least that's what we're being asked to believe... Let me clarify my meaning: I think he went to the grave with a lot of information, but--he may not have been aware of the significance of the majority of it himself. This is in no way "proof" of my assertion-- but, he was ONLY 24 -- I don't think that he or Judyth knew at that tender age (as HEMMING would say): "xxxx from shinola" -- And, who among us would have? Yet, Judyth paints an unrealistic picture of his abilities, IMO. His exceptional level of "wisdom" (as reported by her) is inconsistent with his years of life experience and with his poor judgment. --I'm just thinking out loud, now--

GO_SECURE

monk

Simply as a point of information and not taking any side, Oswald and JFK's IQ were within one point of each other. Whatever conclusions one reaches It is obvious that Oswald was bright.

Doug Weldon

Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.

Jack

Jack:

I had posted this years ago on Rich's forum. I will have to look for where I got Oswald's info. I got Kennedy's info from the book "A Question of Character" by Richard Reeves. Kennedy's IQ was 119 and Oswald's was 118. It is easy for me to remember because I simply take Sarah Palin's IQ and double it.

Best,

Doug

[Doug Weldon]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO GREG BURNHAM:

[NOTE: Why would anyone be surprised if Judyth's recollections involve a romanticized image of of Oswald? The

only source of which I am aware for the information that Lee Harvey Oswald was dyslexic is Judyth Vary Baker.]

ABOUT LEE'S WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE FOR HIS AGE

It is obvious that Lee had his flaws and faults. I do not dwell on them as much as others because I have tried to present the other side of the coin.

1) Lee did not use much Russian in the USSR...Yet he was fluent....And Marina was impressed with his speaking abilities...But when he arrived, he actually pulled it off that he knew very little, and they believed him....

This is intelligent behaviour for a young man still 19 when entering Russia.

2) Listen to Lee's live radio interviews where he mentions the economic systems of Latin American countries, and elsewhere, and he is one against three in that 'debate' -- He is 23 at the time and is not enrolled in college...His common environment is theoretically in Reily's coffee plant, oiling machines...But please listen to him....

3) Ignore the dyslexia and look at his word choices -- including, "I emphatically deny these charges!" -- a word choice under pressure, exhaustion and having been beaten -- A mature choice of words for one so young....

4) Propaganda goes far to hide the truth, but glimmers of his intelligence still survive -- His favourite opera was "Pikova Dama"... Wait a minute -- what is y-o-u-r favourite opera, Greg? Jim? Pamela?

His favorite music? Classical music.

His favorite game? When others of his age and income level are playing poker, his favorite game is chess.

His favorite reading? Karl Marx, John Locke, Russian classics, 1984, science fiction

His favourite poet? Pushkin. Ever read Pushkin?

Have you read Oswald's "Atheian System"? Atheian means divested of any connections to religions...If rewritten free of dyslexian misspellings, it's a good bit of writing about an ideal political system rejecting both communism and capitalism... Not bad for a 23 year old.

5) His mother stated he taught himself to read before he started school.

6) You can't judge his intelligence by letters he was asked to write. They were not meant to reflect a brilliance that might have made him look suspicious to the communist party, etc.

So much 'bad' has been written about Lee that it has pretty well sifted down to everybody who did not know him. I presented a paper to the Popular Culture Association some years back -- after which my university forbade me to go to any more conventions or publish any more papers. I was 'punished' for writing it. But I intend to present a distillation of it to those forums which would allow it. Along with Lee's facility for Russian, his selection of books, when properly explained, bespeaks of an inquiring and intelligent mind.

Why is this important to know? Because Oswald knew more than you think about what was going on. The problem was, he didn't find out in time to be able to get out of it. It is healthy to debate these things without rancour. I also have to say that there were a lot of things we did not know. No doubt of that. Hindsight is so nice!

JVB

Cogent thoughts that go to the heart of the matter, in my opinion.

When Oswald's death was announced, it was clear that the alleged assassin would take certain secrets

to the grave. At that time most people probably didn't realize just how many enduring secrets that would be.

Thanks, Mike. I find it interesting that we sometimes forget (or neglect to remember) the obvious significance of this man's age: He was ONLY 24 years old! Imagine that...it was one of us? Hard to imagine--reliving my 24th year in his shoes or even in my own shoes for that matter! Yet, he--of such limited life experience--we presume went to the grave with extraordinary secrets about the crime of the century! Or, at least that's what we're being asked to believe... Let me clarify my meaning: I think he went to the grave with a lot of information, but--he may not have been aware of the significance of the majority of it himself. This is in no way "proof" of my assertion-- but, he was ONLY 24 -- I don't think that he or Judyth knew at that tender age (as HEMMING would say): "xxxx from shinola" -- And, who among us would have? Yet, Judyth paints an unrealistic picture of his abilities, IMO. His exceptional level of "wisdom" (as reported by her) is inconsistent with his years of life experience and with his poor judgment. --I'm just thinking out loud, now--

GO_SECURE

monk

Simply as a point of information and not taking any side, Oswald and JFK's IQ were within one point of each other. Whatever conclusions one reaches It is obvious that Oswald was bright.

Doug Weldon

Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.

Jack

Jack:

I had posted this years ago on Rich's forum. I will have to look for where I got Oswald's info. I got Kennedy's info from the book "A Question of Character" by Richard Reeves. Kennedy's IQ was 119 and Oswald's was 118. It is easy for me to remember because I simply take Sarah Palin's IQ and double it.

Best,

Doug

Jack:

I used my "almost double digit IQ" and found it in the Warren Report:

Lee scored an IQ of 118 on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children. According to Sokolow, this indicated a "present intellectual functioning in the upper range of bright normal intelligence." Sokolow said that although Lee was "presumably disinterested in school subjects he operates on a much higher than average level." On the Monroe Silent Reading Test, Lee's score indicated no retardation in reading speed and comprehension; he had better than average ability in arithmetical reasoning for his age group.

Best,

Doug

[Greg Burnham]

No way!!! Sarah Palin's IQ can't possibly be 59?? I want confirmation! Hi Doug, good to see you again.

GO_SECURE

monk

[Jack White]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO GREG BURNHAM:

[NOTE: Why would anyone be surprised if Judyth's recollections involve a romanticized image of of Oswald? The

only source of which I am aware for the information that Lee Harvey Oswald was dyslexic is Judyth Vary Baker.]

ABOUT LEE'S WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE FOR HIS AGE

It is obvious that Lee had his flaws and faults. I do not dwell on them as much as others because I have tried to present the other side of the coin.

1) Lee did not use much Russian in the USSR...Yet he was fluent....And Marina was impressed with his speaking abilities...But when he arrived, he actually pulled it off that he knew very little, and they believed him....

This is intelligent behaviour for a young man still 19 when entering Russia.

2) Listen to Lee's live radio interviews where he mentions the economic systems of Latin American countries, and elsewhere, and he is one against three in that 'debate' -- He is 23 at the time and is not enrolled in college...His common environment is theoretically in Reily's coffee plant, oiling machines...But please listen to him....

3) Ignore the dyslexia and look at his word choices -- including, "I emphatically deny these charges!" -- a word choice under pressure, exhaustion and having been beaten -- A mature choice of words for one so young....

4) Propaganda goes far to hide the truth, but glimmers of his intelligence still survive -- His favourite opera was "Pikova Dama"... Wait a minute -- what is y-o-u-r favourite opera, Greg? Jim? Pamela?

His favorite music? Classical music.

His favorite game? When others of his age and income level are playing poker, his favorite game is chess.

His favorite reading? Karl Marx, John Locke, Russian classics, 1984, science fiction

His favourite poet? Pushkin. Ever read Pushkin?

Have you read Oswald's "Atheian System"? Atheian means divested of any connections to religions...If rewritten free of dyslexian misspellings, it's a good bit of writing about an ideal political system rejecting both communism and capitalism... Not bad for a 23 year old.

5) His mother stated he taught himself to read before he started school.

6) You can't judge his intelligence by letters he was asked to write. They were not meant to reflect a brilliance that might have made him look suspicious to the communist party, etc.

So much 'bad' has been written about Lee that it has pretty well sifted down to everybody who did not know him. I presented a paper to the Popular Culture Association some years back -- after which my university forbade me to go to any more conventions or publish any more papers. I was 'punished' for writing it. But I intend to present a distillation of it to those forums which would allow it. Along with Lee's facility for Russian, his selection of books, when properly explained, bespeaks of an inquiring and intelligent mind.

Why is this important to know? Because Oswald knew more than you think about what was going on. The problem was, he didn't find out in time to be able to get out of it. It is healthy to debate these things without rancour. I also have to say that there were a lot of things we did not know. No doubt of that. Hindsight is so nice!

JVB

Cogent thoughts that go to the heart of the matter, in my opinion.

When Oswald's death was announced, it was clear that the alleged assassin would take certain secrets

to the grave. At that time most people probably didn't realize just how many enduring secrets that would be.

Thanks, Mike. I find it interesting that we sometimes forget (or neglect to remember) the obvious significance of this man's age: He was ONLY 24 years old! Imagine that...it was one of us? Hard to imagine--reliving my 24th year in his shoes or even in my own shoes for that matter! Yet, he--of such limited life experience--we presume went to the grave with extraordinary secrets about the crime of the century! Or, at least that's what we're being asked to believe... Let me clarify my meaning: I think he went to the grave with a lot of information, but--he may not have been aware of the significance of the majority of it himself. This is in no way "proof" of my assertion-- but, he was ONLY 24 -- I don't think that he or Judyth knew at that tender age (as HEMMING would say): "xxxx from shinola" -- And, who among us would have? Yet, Judyth paints an unrealistic picture of his abilities, IMO. His exceptional level of "wisdom" (as reported by her) is inconsistent with his years of life experience and with his poor judgment. --I'm just thinking out loud, now--

GO_SECURE

monk

Simply as a point of information and not taking any side, Oswald and JFK's IQ were within one point of each other. Whatever conclusions one reaches It is obvious that Oswald was bright.

Doug Weldon

Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.

Jack

Jack:

I had posted this years ago on Rich's forum. I will have to look for where I got Oswald's info. I got Kennedy's info from the book "A Question of Character" by Richard Reeves. Kennedy's IQ was 119 and Oswald's was 118. It is easy for me to remember because I simply take Sarah Palin's IQ and double it.

Best,

Doug

Jack:

I used my "almost double digit IQ" and found it in the Warren Report:

Lee scored an IQ of 118 on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children. According to Sokolow, this indicated a "present intellectual functioning in the upper range of bright normal intelligence." Sokolow said that although Lee was "presumably disinterested in school subjects he operates on a much higher than average level." On the Monroe Silent Reading Test, Lee's score indicated no retardation in reading speed and comprehension; he had better than average ability in arithmetical reasoning for his age group.

Best,

Doug

Thanks, Doug. I looked it up. It is reported in the Warren Report. It is a CHILDREN'S IQ while

"Lee" was remanded to the notorious Youth House (See Harvey and Lee by Armstrong).

QUOTE FROM WC:

"A psychological human figure-drawing test corroborated the interviewer's findings that Lee was insecure and had limited social contacts. Irving Sokolow, a Youth House psychologist reported that:

The Human Figure Drawings are empty, poor characterizations of persons approximately the same age as the subject. They reflect a considerable amount of impoverishment in the social and emotional areas. He appears to be a somewhat insecure youngster exhibiting much inclination for warm and satisfying relationships to others. There is some indication that he may relate to men more easily than to women in view of the more mature conceptualisation. He appears slightly withdrawn and in view of the lack of detail within the drawings this may assume a more significant characteristic. He exhibits some difficulty in relationship to the maternal figure suggesting more anxiety in this area than in any other.

Lee scored an IQ of 118 on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children. According to Sokolow, this indicated a "present intellectual functioning in the upper range of bright normal intelligence." Sokolow said that although Lee was "presumably disinterested in school subjects he operates on a much higher than average level." On the Monroe Silent Reading Test, Lee's score indicated no retardation in reading speed and comprehension; he had better than average ability in arithmetical reasoning for his age group."

I am not sure how a CHILDREN'S IQ relates to an ADULT IQ. He (Harvey) was only age 13 at the time he was "tested".

As I recall, Dr. Hartogs, who was in charge there, has been discredited.

Thanks.

Jack

[Jack White]

I have been doing some reading on IQ testing (a very complex subject). The tests are

devised according to age, and compare the test score to others of that age. Harvey

was 13, so his test was for 13 year olds, and the score was a comparison between

his score and the expected score for 13 year olds. It is not necessarily comparable

to the score of someone older, who takes an entirely different test. It is an indicator

of intelligence/KNOWLEDGE at a particular point of life development. There are many

different IQ tests, and they are not comparable. The standard IQ test was designed

by Stanford University.

Jack

[William Kelly]

I have been doing some reading on IQ testing (a very complex subject). The tests are

devised according to age, and compare the test score to others of that age. Harvey

was 13, so his test was for 13 year olds, and the score was a comparison between

his score and the expected score for 13 year olds. It is not necessarily comparable

to the score of someone older, who takes an entirely different test. It is an indicator

of intelligence/KNOWLEDGE at a particular point of life development. There are many

different IQ tests, and they are not comparable. The standard IQ test was designed

by Stanford University.

Jack

Oswald's IQ was something like 117, a little above average.

More significant than an IQ test, according to Dr. Herzog, while he was in NYC, Oswald was also given the Minnessotta MultiPhasic Personality Invitory (MMPI), in which he was classified as having a "Passive-Aggressive" personality, exactly the type of subject that Lt. Commander Narut said the Navy looked for in recruiting their assassins.

BK

[Barb Junkkarinen]

The only source of which I am aware for the information that Lee Harvey Oswald was dyslexic is Judyth Vary Baker.]

Sorry, Professor Fetzer. Norman Mailer wrote about Oswald's dyslexia in his book Oswald's Tale, published in 1995.

And I did respond to Judyth.

Kathy C

Mary Ferrell told me that LHO was dyslexic in 1975. I had to ask what the word meant,

and she explained. Mary discovered it by having read every writing attributed to him.

It is reported in many books.

Jack

As a matter of fact, the question was asked as early as 1964 in an article written by a psychiatrist, Lloyd Thompson, M.D. His article appeared in The Annals of Dyslexia, Volume 14, number 1, December, 1964.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/a50600uk16140846/

And, yes, Jack, Mary Ferrell did speak of Oswald having been dyslexic ... I have heard her say that myself.

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

Anyone familiar with the testimony of Marguerite knows she testified to the effect:

WHEN LEE WAS 13 I TOOK HIM TO NEW YORK FOR MENTAL TESTING. (IQ?)

John Armstrong investigated this, going to New York and investigating all the

records of public schools and the Youth House. He finds that at age 13 in

New York was when the dual lives of Lee and Harvey began to merge. She

did not need to go to NYC for an IQ test, which was available in Fort Worth.

It likely was at the behest of the CIA that Lee went to NYC for testing.

See Harvey & Lee, by John Armstrong.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

OK, Dixie. I don't mean to create a conflict where there is none. You offer a resolution for the apparent conflict,

which I accept. Your memory appears to be more accurate than Jack's. We must each sort this out for ourselves!

What is the matter with you, Fetzer? You are making a conflict where there is none. Jack already said he could be misremembering. Monk agreed with me and you said Rich's notes agrees with me...and so does Judyth.....so what is your problem? You even praised Monk, when he had actually confirmed what I had said. I cannot figure out how Barb even enters this picture at all. Why do you keep bringing her into it, to make it appear we are conspirators? She said she wasn't there and has no idea what occurred there. ...and did not even know about Judyth for a 2-3 years later. She has no opinion on whether Judyth left or her own or was expelled. You are not going to force feed us into suddenly beliving things that we do not. We are all fully capable of making our own opinions.

Dixie

[Dixie Dea]

Good for you Fetzer.......and finally on the same page. Indeed we do each have to do our own sorting out, as hard a sit is sometimes. Now with that, you can just wish me a Happy Birtday for today. You don't actually have to do so though...:-)

Dixie

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack, I have not abandoned you and never thought you would lie about anything.

It never ceases to astound me how few seem to understand that lying entails (a)

making an assertion ( that is false © that you know to be false, and (d) which

you assert nevertheless in a deliberate effort to mislead your intended audience.

I have no doubt that every single thing you have ever had to say about Judyth was

sincere. That means, in my judgment, you have (a) made assertions ( that are

false, but neither © that you have known to be false nor (d) that you asserted in a

deliberate effort to mislead anyone. You are among the most sincere men I know.

My point was very different. We can all have biases of which we are unaware. I

have no doubt that I have some, but since I am unaware of them, it is difficult for

me to offer them as examples. In your case, based upon your past experience in

this domain (of sorting out what Judyth has to say), you acquired a point of view.

You and I are no longer young enough that we can take for granted that whatever

we remember must correspond with the truth. Your bias toward Judyth was quite

apparent from scratch. Just go back and reread some of the earliest posts on the

thread. But I am not abandoning you. I still admire you. You are still my friend.

Warm regards,

Jim

Jim...YOUR attitude pains me beyond words. That you suggest that I lie and am biased

against JVB is flat wrong. The "Judyth Scenario" surfaced about 10 years ago to

divide the research community and make friends turn on friends. It is enormously

successful. My only commitment is to TRUTH. I wish nothing but the best for this

poor woman. I regret that you hold her in higher esteem than your true friends.

Your abandoned friend.

Jack

Jack,

I esteem you beyond words. But my commitment to truth overrides my loyalty to my friends.

Your bias against Judyth has been palpable from the beginning. You right off the bat asserted

that she was a mental case. Then you offered eight or ten reasons her story was false, none

of which survived critical scrutiny. Now you go on and on about phone call Lee could not have

made because he could not have paid for them. But they were using a free service accessed by

the mafia. I have always considered you to be a paragon of intellectual virtue and I have stood

with you in many debates when I was convinced your were right. In this case, I am sorry to say,

I am not only not convinced you are right but I am convinced you are wrong. I cannot take back

an assertion for which there so much obvious evidence. Your massive bias against Judyth, in my

view, is beyond dispute. I wish you could see it, but it must be painfully apparent to the rest of us.

Warm regards,

Jim

Dear Jim...I must communicate very poorly, because your post grossly misrepresents my viewpoint,

which I have explained many times.

I HAVE NO "MASSIVE BIAS AGAINST JUDYTH". I care nothing at all about this poor woman, who

obviously is a victim of some covert operation which she does not fully understand. I DO care if

some things she says are untrue.

I have only reported what appear to be things in her various stories which seem to be untrue.

I have only reported my memory of things that happened on the DellaRosa forum some ten

years ago, after stating that my memory of that long ago may be faulty.

You are shooting the messenger here. I am telling what I believe happened. I am certain

that much of it is based in truth as opposed to JVB later revisions. I stand with Mary Ferrell,

Rich DellaRosa and others who found her story wanting. It is NOT Judyth bashing to study the

information she offers and form opinions about it.

Because of our LONG TIME FRIENDSHIP I would hope you would withdraw your MASSIVE BIAS

characterization. It is grossly untrue. I only seek truth. I wish the best for this poor woman,

who has suffered much. I seek to clear LHO. I do it the traditional way. She seeks to clear LHO,

but in a truly bizarre manner. She and I have a common goal, but her approach hinders the

search for truth.

Warm regards,

Jack

Jack,

I'm very troubled by your incessant repetition of points that have long since been resolved. If Judyth and Monk and I have all explained to you had she was NOT "booted" but "resigned", why is that too difficult for you to accept? And listening to your laundry list of mistakes you allege she has made in her story, when her rebuttals are more convincing than your accounts, I am VERY troubled that your massive bias against her feeds your posts and leads to distortions in your all-too-fallible memory.

You want to discount that she and Lee were romantically involved, but don't you understand that, unless she had been on very personal terms with Lee, she almost certainly would not have learned so much about him? And anyone who suggests that what she knows could have come from books is committing a greater fantasy than those of which she has been accused. I have been dealing with her very extensively involving many exchanges and, in my opinion, there is no way she could be faking this!

And while, when you first encountered my psy ops expert's opinions about why she was being harassed, you said that you found that more reasonable than anything else that might explain it, since then you have turned a deaf ear to everything she has had to say on this forum. I know you think I am committing some kind of gross blunder, but, at this point in time, I am convinced that she is "the real deal" and that most of the attacks upon her from the past were not warranted.

I am not alone in this assessment, as you know, since Nigel Turner, Jim Marrs, Edward Haslam, Wim Dankbaar, and others unnamed come out on her side, too. I suggest that you consider the possibility that Judyth posed such a threat, once she decided she could no longer remain silent, that massive efforts have been exerted in repeated attempts to discredit her, including planting false stories attributed to her that have subsequently been used against her.

You have observed--more than once--that perhaps the right approach is to study her book when it appears, but of course you aren't waiting. My best guess is that you are wary of Judyth because you believe that her account has the potential to undermine the "Harvey & Lee" scenario to which you are committed. Well, I have explained--several times now--why her knowledge of the man she knew as "Lee" in New Orleans does not necessarily conflict with "the two Oswalds", unless, of course, it turns out that "the second Oswald" was concocted out of a rather varied assortment of impersonators across time, where the creation of false documentary records has been mistaken for a single person living a parallel life.

You have strong opinions about this, while I do not. But unless you doubt there was "a second Oswald", why become apoplectic about the man that Judyth appears to have known in New Orleans? If she really were a flake, a fake, or a phony, then why should you or anyone else be so concerned about her? The big picture, in my view, makes no sense at all unless there is a great deal more truth to what she has to say than you are willing to allow. And, with virtually every exchange on this forum, I become more and more convinced that she is right and that most of her critics are wrong, not in every detail, of course-since I cannot imagine how anyone could reconstruct any significant portion of their lives without some shortcomings or failings--but in its general features and, with respect to its crucial aspects.

When you and Dixie and Barb cannot even recollect accurately what happened on Rich's forum during the past ten years, for example, and are unwilling to even admit that Judyth resigned from the forum after confronting massive hostility, then I despair of the claims that your charges against her carry any weight. You are a dear friend, Jack, and I do not want to rupture our friendship, but the weight of the evidence available to me places me on her side of this divide, not on yours. Too many of your arguments depend upon your presumptions about making phone calls and the like, to cite a small example, where you don't appear to know the facts.

Please grant Judyth a modicum of respect and place less emphasis upon your fallible memory and appeals to what is or is not plausible to you. The bottom line is that, but for her personal relationship, she would not have known so much about him, where she seems to know more than anyone else on this forum. You should care about their personal relationship, since, as I see it, that was the framework for their interaction and for placing her in the position to observe and learn so much about him. I don't expect this post to resolve our differences, but I wanted to explain to you my point of view.

Jim

Thanks, Dixie...I was unaware that Harry published a book about JVB. I have not kept up

with any of her tales since she left Rich's forum. I am not interested in her romance.

Jack

Jack....Judyth already did have her long awaited, first book published. In fact, it was in two volums, one of which contained all of her Endnotes....which were numerous. Harry Livingstone published it through a print to read company. Sometimes that is the only way to do so. I did obtain the copies, but then she stopped the publication, becaus eit did not turn out as she had hoped. There again, there are descrepencies as to her reason and with Martin Shacklefords reasons. So this upcoming book is actually her second book. There were numerous inconsistencies from her forum post claims and in her first book.

Dixie

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

There are a lot of good people on this thread, Dixie, and you are certainly one of them. I was just about to return to my note to say that you were right to call me on this and that I had gone a post too far, when here you are! One of my worst traits is that I can become overly combative. Of that, there can be no doubt. Now all I have to do is to figure out what we are doing on the forum at this early hour. But then, it affords an occasion for me to wish you a very HAPPY BIRTHDAY! And to add that I will strive to keep everything in proper perspective as our discussion continues here.

Good for you Fetzer.......and finally on the same page. Indeed we do each have to do our own sorting out, as hard a sit is sometimes. Now with that, you can just wish me a Happy Birtday for today. You don't actually have to do so though...:-)

Dixie

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Dixie Dea]

Thank You, Jim

Ms Dixie