Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Don Jeffries]

This has been a long and interesting thread. There has been disagreement between many fine researchers here, which has tended to be the case with JVB from the beginning. I will not attempt to claim that I can distinguish whether Judith is telling the truth or not; ultimately, only she really knows that. It's certainly fascinating to think there is someone around who was Oswald's lover and privy to some "inside" information about the impending assassination. There seems little doubt that she has suffered for some reason, at the very least, and I'm interested enough to listen to what she has to say.

About that- I'd like to know exactly what LHO told JVB about the assassination. As I understand it, he was on an "abort team" to stop it, and followed orders on November 22. I do have to say that I respectfully disagree with those who've criticized him for not stopping the assassination. This was a 24 year old undercover intelligence agent, who certainly had learned to obey orders without question. I'm assuming he was told that those planning to assassinate JFK were "bad guys" and that his superiors were out to stop it from happening (with his inside help, of course). Yet another assumption- he was as surprised as anyone when JFK was struck by bullets.

Jim, Jack, Monk, Dixie, Barb, Doug, Mike, Kathy, Bill, et. al- I respect all of you, and appreciate your input here. I think this is an example of an issue where good people can disagree strongly on something without anyone being deliberately deceptive.

Question- is there any reason why Judith cannot join the forum again and post herself?

Oh, and Happy Birthday, Dixie!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Don Jeffries

[Evan Burton]

Not paying attention to the thread, but happy birthday Miss Dixie!

[Dixie Dea]

My goodness.....thank you Jim, Don and Evan. That was nice of you guys!

Dixie

[Barb Junkkarinen]

OK, Dixie. I don't mean to create a conflict where there is none. You offer a resolution for the apparent conflict,

which I accept. Your memory appears to be more accurate than Jack's. We must each sort this out for ourselves!

What is the matter with you, Fetzer? You are making a conflict where there is none. Jack already said he could be misremembering. Monk agreed with me and you said Rich's notes agrees with me...and so does Judyth.....so what is your problem? You even praised Monk, when he had actually confirmed what I had said. I cannot figure out how Barb even enters this picture at all. Why do you keep bringing her into it, to make it appear we are conspirators? She said she wasn't there and has no idea what occurred there. ...and did not even know about Judyth for a 2-3 years later. She has no opinion on whether Judyth left or her own or was expelled. You are not going to force feed us into suddenly beliving things that we do not. We are all fully capable of making our own opinions.

Dixie

Maybe this will help with a little further resolution .... it appears that Jack may have good reason for his memories, just as Dixie and Greg have good reason for theirs. I, as previously noted a few times, was not a member of Rich's forum when Judyth was there, so have no idea what went down or how .... except for this...

Through google, I found several posts about Judyth's time on Rich's forum. Rich himself posted this on July 28, 2004:

I am writing this to clarify a point which pops up here often.

Judyth and her team are aware that I deleted all of her posts from my

forum, jfkresearch.com when she resigned. Moreover, due to server

and web host changes I have no archived posts from anyone.

Now knowing that her posts were deleted, Team Judyth claims that she had

posted a great deal of "evidence" on my forum. She did NOT. In fact,

after 4 or 5 months of posting garbage on the forum, most of the members

became frustrated and disinterested in Judyth. The reason: her continual

refusal to post any evidence whatsoever.

The above is an excerpt from a much longer post, but addresses the issue that has been at least one catalyst for today's circus. Rich himself says that Judyth had resigned and then he had deleted all her posts.

But ... there are many posts in many threads over the years, one rather funny play by play (with Martin's slant) of what all went on when Judyth was there. It really doesn't matter, ancient history, and any details, imo, would only serve to further distract discussion from what it is that matters here. But in those posts, it is clear, quite clear, that what happened on Rich's forum, and Rich himself alludes to it in what he wrote above, it was a real circus ... with more than one call from frustrated forum members for Judyth and her supporters to be banished from the forum. Rich apparently thought seriously about what was going on, one time saying something about closing down the forum for a cooling off period, and other posts from different people noting that Judyth was going to be banished ... but apparently that never happened, and she did resign.

So, while she did resign, Jack's recollections are not really incorrect overall ... except for that ultimate bottom line. It sounds like Jack remembers all the problems and the calls for her to be banished, and rhetoric that sounded like she was going to be banished, ... I think this can readily account for his erroneous recollection that ultimately she had been banished. Much of what Jack has commented about here does appear in bits and snippets in some of those posts.

An aside to Greg, Dixie and Jack: Thanks to each of you for different comments throughout a few of this tangle of posts .... cleared a couple things up, and Jack, I appreciate a couple of your comments.

And, Dixie ... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Bests,

Barb :-)

[John Simkin]

Question- is there any reason why Judith cannot join the forum again and post herself?

She is still a member of the Forum. She stopped posting because she did not like the questions and comments she received. That is why she prefers others to do the posting for her.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE:

.........

==ON TMWKK THE LOVE AFFAIR AND EVER SINCE 1999 WHEN I FIRST SPOKE OUT, I MENTIONED 14-15 PHONE CALLS BETWEEN OCTOBER 6 AND EARLY AM NOV. 21.==

He would go across Beckley Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall.

==IT HAS NEVER BEEN COUNTERED. A JANITOR IS IN THE MARY FERRELL CHRONOLOGY REPORTING SEEING LEE OSWALD THERE THE LAST NIGHT HE CALLED ME. I DID NOT SAY THAT LEE USED THE LAUNDROMAT EVERY TIME FOR A CALL. I DESCRIBED BEING ABLE TO HEAR CARS PASSING BY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS...NOR DID I CLAIM A PAYPHONE EXISTED INSIDE THE LAUNDROMAT. I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT HIS, THOUGH, THAT THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. IT CASTS ASPERSIONS ON THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF RUTH PAINE ON THE EVENING OF NOV. 21==

Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

==INACCURATE. THE JANITOR'S LAUNDROMAT REPORT WAS FROM THE FBI.==

Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:

CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.

Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)

CE3000 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0275b.htm

CE3001 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0276b.htm

CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.

CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0285a.htm

Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.

The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Judyth is nearly blind, needs glasses, and has an old computer with a Hungarian keyboard. She has

tried to visit this forum to follow the thread and has been repeatedly blocked. I consider it to be my

honor to edit her posts for errors in their presentation that have arisen from the causal interaction of

being nearly bind, needing glasses, and having an old computer with a Hungarian keyboard--which, if

he were following this thread closely, even John Simkin might understand. If this thread is proving its

worth, which I take to be obvious, there is no reason to change the manner in which it is being done.

I founded this thread to present her story because I believe in her and that belief has only grown in

breadth and depth throughout these exchanges. There is no good reason to change our procedures.

Question- is there any reason why Judith cannot join the forum again and post herself?

She is still a member of the Forum. She stopped posting because she did not like the questions and comments she received. That is why she prefers others to do the posting for her.

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES

[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]

WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART I

A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald

INTRODUCTION:

Marguerite Claverie Oswald was Lee Harvey Oswald’s mother. Or was she?

The question has been raised by John Armstrong. We cannot, in one fell swoop, resolve the entire matter of “Harvey” and “Lee” behind this question by examining only the person of Marguerite. There are school records of “Lee” and “Harvey” for example, that must be examined in yet another study. Mr. Armstrong has assembled many records. His book is huge, I’m told. I have been sent excerpts and have the CD photo collection he published. Mr. Armstrong traveled far and wide to get his information. He even flew to Argentina to interview some witnesses.

But he did not travel to Louisiana to interview me. He did interview me for a few minutes in one telephone call. He dismissed me, I am told by persons who spoke to him at COPA in 2009, because I stated I was not pregnant in 1963 and therefore, in his mind, I could not have posed as Marina Oswald.

Well, neither of us has read the other’s book. Living in exile made it impossible to order his book without disclosing my locations. However, I had a close relationship with Lee H. Oswald for months in New Orleans, and later by telephone, we planned an escape to Mexico. I learned way too much for my own good and am paying the price now.

Without digressing about how much Lee confided in me (anyone who reads my book understands that I went to extraordinary lengths to get his trust) I do feel obligated, knowing what I know, to set the record straight. “Harvey and Lee” structured researchers try to force me to divide everything of probative value between two identities—a “Harvey” and a “Lee.” I was actually asked several times by Armstrong theory supporters to show them, through photos, which man I knew—was it “Harvey” or was it “Lee”?

I refused to answer the question – it is all too close to “When did you stop beating your wife?” By pointing to one set, I was thus acknowledging that the other set belonged to “Lee” (or the other way around). I was then accused of refusing to answer their questions. I was even accused of responding discourteously, which was not the case. Recently, the same scenario was repeated at The Education Forum.

Let’s get a level playing field.

To attain that, I present here information of my own, along with observations from my knowledge of linguistics, as well as medical information. The information I offer may serve to change the outlook about collections of photographs of “This is Harvey Oswald” and “This is Lee Oswald” as actually belonging in the more logical categories of verified “Lee Harvey Oswald” photographs and “imposters.”

A FINE RESEARCHER

John Armstrong has collected many new pieces of information about Lee H. Oswald. Here is a telling passage from his online (and at first, compelling) article about “Two Oswalds”

“…According to McBride's information and Marine Corps records it appeared that from October, 1957 thru August, 1958 there was a "Lee Harvey Oswald" living with his "mother" in either New Orleans or Fort Worth while a second "Lee Harvey Oswald" was stationed in Japan and his "mother" was working at Paul's Shoe store in Fort Worth. At first this sounded ridiculous, even though I had documents, photographs, and statements from people who were with Oswald in different locations at the same time. Later, I also realized that if there were two "Lee Harvey Oswalds" at age 17 (and younger), then each of these boys had to have a parent or guardian ("Marguerite Oswald") to care for them. “

Ref: JFK 101 An excerpt from

"Harvey & Lee: How the CIA Framed Oswald by John Armstrong

www.jfkresearch.com/jfk_101.html

I was surprised that Armstrong takes Marine records at face value, photographs about LHO in the newspapers when he defected at face value, and then can propose that two Marguerite Oswalds may have existed to take care of two different lads getting prepared at an age even younger than 17, “to care for them.” To support his thesis, Armstrong juxtaposes interviews that show conflict in time and dates. This is an entirely different issue, but the fact that so many documents about Kennedy have been altered, such as his x-rays, medical reports, etc. we must be very carefully what we accept as ‘fact’ from sources out there.

Especially without checking with all the witnesses who have claimed to have known Oswald during one of the most critical times in Oswald’s life. It has not been pleasant, standing out there to take dives from seagulls when I’m holding out a digestible chunk of information for the research community. But I do have information showing that the Marguerite Oswald we can trace all the way back to Ekdahl, at least, is the same Marguerite Oswald who spoke to reporters mourning the death of her son and insisting that he had been framed “by the State Department.”

Marguerite was right about that. Why would she bring this matter up to the whole world if she were part of some operation where she became a substitute mother?

I believe we have good reason to continue in our investigation of evidence that there was just one Marguerite. Besides hypothyroidism, what else could put Oswald’s mother back into one category instead of two? Was she the same woman who was born in the New Orleans area?

Let’s listen to her voice, remembering that Mr. Armstrong and those who have worked very hard with him, have come to believe the woman who married Edwin A. Ekdahl in 1945, about six years after the sudden death of her second husband (Lee’s [“Harvey”’s] father) is not the same woman as the one seen in the photograph here, whose voice can be heard on

YouTube::

1965 TV interview 5 min, 24 sec.

With a large portion including an on-camera interview of Marguerite Oswald.

Ref:

We don’t get much help from newspapers: this is from The New York Times:

FORT WORTH, Jan. 17, 1981

Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, died today of cancer. She was 73 years old. Mrs. Oswald waged a campaign against the findings of the Warren Commission, which concluded that her son murdered President Kennedy in 1963.

There are photos of Marguerite that show her relatively slim and trim. They are all photos taken before Lee Oswald went into the Marines, at barely age 17.

THE EFFECTS OF HYPOTHYROIDISM

“According to conventional medicine, low sex drive is not necessarily a disease. Neither is a little dry skin or constipation or being tired most of the day. But for you, those problems are significant. So what causes them? Often, they're caused by a condition that goes undiagnosed in half of the 45 million people who have it. It's called hypothyroidism.’ [Mark Hyman, M.D.]

‘”….thyroid deficiency [is] a cause of common age-associated maladies such as depression, fatigue, and unwanted weight gain….’ [Dr. Ana Hernandez, Youthful Aging Center ]

Dry skin • Hoarse voice/voice changes • Thinning hair • Coarse hair

A YouTube comment: “Marguerite's speaking voice can be irritating at times, but these are rare recordings ...” www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWu50uPAWs&feature=related [NOTE: Removed for "terms of use violation.]

Notice her voice in this recording: ( late 1964 or in 1965…?):

“…he was wide open…” as to Lee’s protection, she says, when he was shot [this is true].

She says he’s framed. “Our trouble is in our State Department….” She says, basically, a coup occurred, too complicated to go into in a short interview. She is then treated almost with contempt...It is obviously such a shocking statement that she is considered totally out of touch with reality (we know better now). From then on, her reputation declined and she was always being noted for her emotional outbursts and ‘weird’ statements. Character assassination was in full swing. Notice she is wearing makeup and looks nicer than when she was stressed out, at the funeral of her son.

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES

[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]

WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART II

A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald

This photo is claimed by John Armstrong and others to be of “Harvey’s” mother. She is supposed to have replaced “Harvey”’s real mother. Another Marguerite is supposed to have been “Harvey”’s original mother. In other places in Armstrong’s writings about Lee Oswald’s family (Harvey’s), he states the original family might have been Hungarian-speaking.

“Above: A severely affected 14-year-old hypothyroid girl with puffiness around the eyes, thickened lips, depressed root of the nose (saddle nose), and straight, coarse hair. The second picture was taken after only 6 months of treatment with desiccated thyroid. Note the elevated bridge of the nose, brighter eyes, thinner lips, and glossy, curly hair. Her constipation had resolved and her appetite improved.”

www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html

HERE’S ANOTHER EXAMPLE:

..and another…

Note that Hypothyroidism, or an under-active thyroid, is 10 times more common in women than men. Now let’s look at Marguerite Oswald:

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES

[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]

WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART III

A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald

Between 1939 and the late 60’s or so, a lot can happen when hypothyroidism is at work. Hypothyroidism often goes undiagnosed. Even today, it is called the most undiagnosed of all chronic debilitating conditions. Note this Google entry (and there are many more):

1. Hypothyroidism— the Most Under-Diagnosed Condition | EmpowHER ...

24 Mar 2009 ... Hypothyroidism— the Most Under-Diagnosed Condition. March 24, 2009 - 2:18pm 833 reads 2 ... CONNECT with Women Interested inHypothyroidism ...

www.empowher.com/.../hypothyroidism—-most-under-diagnosed-condition - Cached

To review: Fully developed thickened nose. The chin gets thicker with the condition. Facial features coarsen. Hair loss continues. “…the hypothyroid state [includes] fat pads on back, pudgy hands, broad face, fiat nose, large tongue, and pot belly.’

It is possible that Marguerite Oswald had this condition. It would explain what seems to be “two” Marguerite Oswalds.

It is a natural explanation, a reasonable one, and one which must be considered. Often the simplest explanation for why a person seems to be different from what she looked in high school is a medical explanation. My features also changed and coarsened and I gained weight because I, too, suffered from hypothyroidism for years before it was diagnosed.

The only photo where “Marguerite”’s eyebrows do not go upward is in an early photo John Armstrong obtained of Marguerite Oswald showing her ‘tall and slender’ tough she is sorter than those around her in the photo — it is the one shown above after the Ekdahl photo. But one thing at a time.

The matter of height –- a concern voiced by Armstrong who sees a reduced height later -- is not thoroughly addressed. Measurements can be take from photographs. Marguerite is shown in the Ekdahl photo wearing fashionable high heels. Over time, osteoporosis can make a woman lose inches in height. But did Marguerite really shrink to shrimp-size?

Marina Oswald and I are both 5’ 2” tall. In this photo, Marguerite sits higher in the couch than Marina does. Her head is higher, while her legs are extended, showing she is actually seated further forward than Marina, and therefore, is even a bit taller than she seems here. Marguerite is more than 5’ 2” tall. She seems closer to 5’ 5.” Measurements can be taken.

In the next photo, her shoulders are not much lower than Robert Oswald’s (turned). Robert is considerably taller than Marina: hence, Marguerite is not ‘that’ short, after all.

MARGUERITE OSWALD’S SPEECH HABITS

I have taken many linguistics courses, including courses at the doctoral level, at three universities -- most recently, at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Besides courses there in sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics, one course was an independent study on Cajun and Louisiana-based linguistic speech habits.

First, we must establish the identity of the woman in the photograph above as native-born in Louisiana with Cajun speech community influences, as her French-style maiden name suggests.

Marguerite Oswald was born Marguerite Claverie. In the interview cited here, a linguist can hear certain word choices and their pronunciations typical of an urban-raised Cajun who had lived a long time in the New Orleans area.

I interviewed over 400 Cajun speaking older people for a research project and have kept some of these tapes. I chose people who were live adults in 1963, partly because I hoped to find witnesses concerning Lee and me. An article I wrote about these interviews was published in the local Lafayette, LA newspaper during the Christmas season of 1998, about Christmas as ‘it used to be” from the 1960’s backward to the early 1920’s. Such a topic gave me the opportunity to hear the names and whereabouts of relatives. In this manner, in fact, I was able to locate one of my witnesses, Anna Lewis.

With this background information, and the information shown just below, we assert the fact that Marguerite Oswald’s voice indicates that she was born and raised in New Orleans, her speech habits influenced by her Cajun-bred family and environment. We must then ask ourselves if this woman was capable of being a substitute mother for “Harvey” as claimed. For now, we will not look at Lee’s/Harvey’s school records — this we leave for another examination to be forthcoming.

MARGUERITE OSWALD’S RECORDED INTERVIEW ~1965:

There are traces of Texas accent in her voice—not surprising, since she also lived for years in Texas. However, the linguistically-trained ear can pick up typical Cajun-influenced pronunciation in Marguerite’s interview, which was conducted after the Warren Commission’s report was issued:

“Didn” intead of “didn’t” (no ‘t’ sound)

“im-ME-jut-lee” instead of “immediately”

Another place says, she does say ‘immediately,’ but it is in a different kind of placement in the sentence, allowing her more time to speak the word properly… Such a mixed linguistic habit is commonly found in urban New Orleans speech patterns in the 1960’s, among Cajuns with some early education in standard English.

“Course” instead of “of course’

“Hah-vey” instead of “Harvey”

“wile” instead of “wild”

“…understand the impact of all of this…” all spoken with a in Cajun-influenced accent

“I din’n give him the emotional support…”

In addition, her sentence structure habit is also Cajun-influenced.

Conclusion: Marguerite Claverie Oswald was born in Louisiana and her early childhood, at least, was spent specifically in the New Orleans area. She has had only a moderate level of education, but the length of her sentences, length of words chosen, and appropriate responses under stress in this interview indicate that she was above average in intelligence.

A note in passing: I have also analyzed Lee Oswald’s voice recordings and assert that Lee Oswald spent his childhood in New Orleans, though he eradicated a great deal of his Texas-influenced accents and had mainstreamed his English speech patterns.

Due to his dyslexia, which made reading more difficult, Oswald had developed a good ear I compensation, allowing him to pass his classes more easily and also to pick up foreign languages with great facility. His facility in Russian came, however, from much practice, as I as a witness can testify. Lee Oswald constantly practiced his Russian with me.

I have brought to the attention for a decade the fact that Lee Oswald used the words “axed” /”Ax” for “ask”/”asked” in his radio ‘debate’ as well as before radio and TV microphones in Dallas just prior to his death by assassination.

In conclusion, the question has been raised: were there two Marguerite Oswalds, one raising “Harvey” and the other raising “Lee”? Photos of a relatively tall and slender Marguerite are matched against later photos showing a shorter, dumpy-looking woman.

I state as a witness that Lee Oswald told me his mother had aged fast --before her time -- and he blamed himself and his brothers as being a great burden to her. As a single mother, she found herself unable to cope with three boys and almost fell apart. Lee said that later, she had started to develop a goiter when they lived in Texas. Only recently, she had started using iodized salt and the goiter was being corrected. I explained to him that people with goiters had a thyroid problem –- and that was probably why she was depressed, moody, had gained so much weight, and why her hair was falling out, which distressed her a great deal.

About 70% of thyroid deficiencies go undetected among those with no health insurance. I, myself, almost went into a coma from thyroid deficiency because my health insurance did not support blood tests. I had volunteered and gave blood, for an experiment, and, about a week later, was called at 11:00 pm and told to immediately go to the emergency room. My thyroid level was so dangerously low that, in fact, I was quite ill by then and thought I was just fighting the flu. I would have gone into a coma if that call hadn’t roused me to go to the hospital. I experienced much what Marguerite did: weight gain, hair thinning to the point I was wearing a wig, dry skin, exhaustion. I aged a decade in a year. I must take thyroid replacement T4 for the rest of my life.

Seeing how drastically my own looks changed and how my hair thinned, and the great weight gain I experienced, when I saw the photos of Marguerite Oswald being labeled as a ‘different’ woman because she, too, had gained weight, had thinned hair, had coarsened facial features that ruined her good looks, with thickening in the neck area, I recognized that she probably suffered from hypothyroidism, not from “being a secret agent.”

Those who contend that Marguerite was not the same woman as shown in earlier photos may have been photography experts, but they were not trained in Cajun linguistic analysis. They were not trained in the medical sciences. I also have a degree in anthropology and have spent years—some documented as advanced courses—in forensics studies.

I offer this information in the hope that I have shed more light on an explanation for Marguerite Oswald’s radical change in appearance over the years. Other matters can be handled as they arise by inspecting the accuracy and extensiveness of research conducted in this area by Armstrong and others. It is because of my status as witness that I was able to come to some of these conclusions, having been told by Lee Oswald that his mother had aged quickly and had some kind of thyroid problem. I have told researchers about this problem, by the way, ever since 2000.

Judyth Vary Baker

March, 2010

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO GREG BURNHAM

[NOTE: He may have been told that he had succeeded in breaking the plot and that nothing

was going to happen that day. We act on our beliefs and that may be what he believed. He

had done his job, he had been successful, so he might as well relax and have a coke.]

Dear Greg-- Thanks for your response. Your comments are sensible and reasonable.

Here are my replies...

Strawman. I was not judging his intelligence. I have no problem accepting his brightness.

===I didn't realize that from what you first wrote. I confess to reading things rather literally.===

I do have a problem accepting that he was that bright, but failed to tell anyone who could have made a difference that Kennedy was to be killed if he REALLY knew it AND TOLD YOU.

===Glad we're talking, Monk. I appreciate the opportunity. Lee told me that he actively worked to save JFK and was instrumental a one point in doing so. He mentioned working through contacts. I now realize this must have occurred in Chicago, as reported by Abraham Bolden, that an informant named "Lee" (not that many "Lee's" around up north, Greg -- It's a southern name -- Robert E. Lee inspired it in the South...

A person intervened via FBI contacts and saved Kennedy there, just barely in time. Because he was a member of an abort team, as I told Jim Marrs over a decade ago, he was following their plan, or should I say, he thought he was. I do not know details of hat plan, but he was not free to risk other lives. Whether they lied about an 'abort team' I do not know, as I haven't seen any references to such on the internet or anywhere else....===

I have a problem believing that someone that damn smart EVEN WENT TO WORK that day knowing what you claim he knew! I would understand if he knew it--and stayed HOME! I might not like that--he should have tried to stop it--but I would BELIEVE human weakness got the best of him and he just called in sick.

===I was sneered at on the McAdams newsgroup for reporting that I begged Lee to take a laxative or something to make himself sick! David Lifton called it the "ExLax Plot" and dismissed my efforts to keep Lee out of it with raucous mockery. Lee said that if he ran, they would kill him, and they would just move somebody else in his place who would enjoy pulling a trigger. As he said, "If I stay, that's one less bullet aimed at Kennedy."

By then, Lee believed he was a dead man whatever he did, so perhaps he stayed locatable so nobody would take his place. I wondered if there might have been another gunman on the 6th floor, who would be there to see if he would shoot or not? Didn't they see more than one person up there in the window? Or are those photos I've seen on Youtube not worth consideration?===

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS, MONK.

JVB

(cont.)

JUDYTH:

5) His mother stated he taught himself to read before he started school.

That's a different kind of "bright" and you know it. I'm talking about LIFE EXPERIENCE brightness, which is not the same as maturity, nor is it the same as "gifted" which he may have been. Life experience brightness can be gleaned in one way only, by definition.

6) You can't judge his intelligence by letters he was asked to write. They were not meant to reflect a brilliance that might have made him look suspicious to the communist party, etc.

Strawman. I was not judging his intelligence. I have no problem accepting his brightness. I do have a problem accepting that he was that bright, but failed to tell anyone who could have made a difference that Kennedy was to be killed if he REALLY knew it AND TOLD YOU. I have a problem believing that someone that damn smart EVEN WENT TO WORK that day knowing what you claim he knew! I would understand if he knew it--and stayed HOME! I might not like that--he should have tried to stop it--but I would BELIEVE human weakness got the best of him and he just called in sick.

So much 'bad' has been written about Lee that it has pretty well sifted down to everybody who did not know him.

Don't worry, I don't believe everything I read.

I presented a paper to the Popular Culture Association some years back -- after which my university forbade me to go to any more conventions or publish any more papers. I was 'punished' for writing it. But I intend to present a distillation of it to those forums which would allow it. Along with Lee's facility for Russian, his selection of books, when properly explained, bespeaks of an inquiring and intelligent mind.

No comment.

Why is this important to know? Because Oswald knew more than you think about what was going on. The problem was, he didn't find out in time to be able to get out of it. It is healthy to debate these things without rancour. I also have to say that there were a lot of things we did not know. No doubt of that. Hindsight is so nice!

JVB

Agreed. No rancour.

GO_SECURE

monk

[Jack White]

Thanks for the laundromat information. I had never seen that. As I recall from the DellaRosa forum,

some researcher had researched a possible laundromat and could find none. I cannot remember

the name of the researcher who said there was no laundromat.

I recall that years later when I finally checked out Beckley Street in person, there was a gas station

across from the 1026 rooming house...and no signs of a washateria; the rest was residential.

Perhaps the laundromat was converted later to a gas station. I remember looking on both

Beckley and Zang for a washateria, and could find none...but that was many years later, so it

could have closed.

I also noted that your info said the washateria closed at midnight. As I recall JVB's claim, it was

said to be a 24-hour place, and that the phone calls were often after midnight.

Also, the claim is that somehow a mafia phone line was patched into the pay phone. I cannot

imagine this happening without the knowledge of Southwestern Bell.

Thanks.

Jack

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE:

.........

==ON TMWKK THE LOVE AFFAIR AND EVER SINCE 1999 WHEN I FIRST SPOKE OUT, I MENTIONED 14-15 PHONE CALLS BETWEEN OCTOBER 6 AND EARLY AM NOV. 21.==

He would go across Beckley Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall.

==IT HAS NEVER BEEN COUNTERED. A JANITOR IS IN THE MARY FERRELL CHRONOLOGY REPORTING SEEING LEE OSWALD THERE THE LAST NIGHT HE CALLED ME. I DID NOT SAY THAT LEE USED THE LAUNDROMAT EVERY TIME FOR A CALL. I DESCRIBED BEING ABLE TO HEAR CARS PASSING BY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS...NOR DID I CLAIM A PAYPHONE EXISTED INSIDE THE LAUNDROMAT. I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT HIS, THOUGH, THAT THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. IT CASTS ASPERSIONS ON THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF RUTH PAINE ON THE EVENING OF NOV. 21==

Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

==INACCURATE. THE JANITOR'S LAUNDROMAT REPORT WAS FROM THE FBI.==

Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:

CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.

Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)

CE3000 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0275b.htm

CE3001 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0276b.htm

CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.

CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0285a.htm

Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.

The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jack White

[Jack White]

What JVB IGNORES is the timeline involved!

TWO MARGUERITES lived AT THE SAME TIME, one in Fort Worth

and one in New Orleans. This is DOCUMENTED. There were

two DIFFERENT WOMEN using the name Marguerite Oswald

and each had a son in junior high school AT THE SAME TIME!

The Fort Worth Marguerite worked at Paul's Shoe Store on

Houston Street; the New Orleans Marguerite worked at a hosiery

store on Canal Street. The Fort Worth LHO attended Stripling

Junior High School; the New Orleans LHO attended Beauregard

Junior High School. This is documented!

JVB is MISREPRESENTING the research of John Armstrong!

Jack

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jack White

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

There are lots of things you can't imagine, Jack, but that does not mean that they are not true.

I don't know how the phone connection was made, but that would not surprise me in the least.

What will impress me is the first time that you grant that something Judyth has to say is true.

Thanks for the laundromat information. I had never seen that. As I recall from the DellaRosa forum,

some researcher had researched a possible laundromat and could find none. I cannot remember

the name of the researcher who said there was no laundromat.

I recall that years later when I finally checked out Beckley Street in person, there was a gas station

across from the 1026 rooming house...and no signs of a washateria; the rest was residential.

Perhaps the laundromat was converted later to a gas station. I remember looking on both

Beckley and Zang for a washateria, and could find none...but that was many years later, so it

could have closed.

I also noted that your info said the washateria closed at midnight. As I recall JVB's claim, it was

said to be a 24-hour place, and that the phone calls were often after midnight.

Also, the claim is that somehow a mafia phone line was patched into the pay phone. I cannot

imagine this happening without the knowledge of Southwestern Bell.

Thanks.

Jack

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE:

.........

==ON TMWKK THE LOVE AFFAIR AND EVER SINCE 1999 WHEN I FIRST SPOKE OUT, I MENTIONED 14-15 PHONE CALLS BETWEEN OCTOBER 6 AND EARLY AM NOV. 21.==

He would go across Beckley Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall.

==IT HAS NEVER BEEN COUNTERED. A JANITOR IS IN THE MARY FERRELL CHRONOLOGY REPORTING SEEING LEE OSWALD THERE THE LAST NIGHT HE CALLED ME. I DID NOT SAY THAT LEE USED THE LAUNDROMAT EVERY TIME FOR A CALL. I DESCRIBED BEING ABLE TO HEAR CARS PASSING BY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS...NOR DID I CLAIM A PAYPHONE EXISTED INSIDE THE LAUNDROMAT. I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT HIS, THOUGH, THAT THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. IT CASTS ASPERSIONS ON THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF RUTH PAINE ON THE EVENING OF NOV. 21==

Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.

==INACCURATE. THE JANITOR'S LAUNDROMAT REPORT WAS FROM THE FBI.==

Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:

CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.

Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)

CE3000 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0275b.htm

CE3001 can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0276b.htm

CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.

CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0285a.htm

Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.

The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

She is doing what she can without having his book available.

As I see it, she is addressing the photographic evidence you

and John have adduced. I think she is doing a good job of it.

I am sending her a copy of HARVEY & LEE. If she can do all

she is doing without even having his book available to her,

imagine what she may be able to do after she has it in hand.

I will be sure to direct her attention to the points you make.

But what I can't imagine is what you would be posting here

if you actually did have some massive bias against Judyth!

Jim

What JVB IGNORES is the timeline involved!

TWO MARGUERITES live AT THE SAME TIME, one in Fort Worth

and one in New Orleans. This is DOCUMENTED. There were

two DIFFERENT WOMEN using the name Marguerite Oswald

and each had a son in junior high school AT THE SAME TIME!

The Fort Worth Marguerite worked at Paul's Shoe Store on

Houston Street; the New Orleans Marguerite worked at a hosiery

store on Canal Street. The Fort Worth LHO attended Stripling

Junior High School; the New Orleans LHO attended Beauregard

Junior High School. This is documented!

JVB is MISREPRESENTING the research of John Armstrong!

Jack

Edited March 24, 2010 by James H. Fetzer