Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Jack White]

Reply segment number one...my responses in bold.

...........

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am

referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken

to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and

you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the

one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as

"Harvey".

This is correct.

According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the

one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could

not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,

intellectual and fluent in Russian.

This is essentially correct, but Dawn Meridith is just a researcher and

what you quote is her research, not mine.

You say the one called "Harvey" was

born in Hungary and liked the name "Harvey",

This is the conclusion of Armstrong, who has studied LHO more intensively

than anyone. I accept John's research.

while Judyth's says that

he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent, and hated the name

"Harvey".

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not agree with that. For instance, someone mistaking an accent

for Cajun is not "wrong", but a misinterpretation.

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather

suspect he does not.

I cannot speak for Lifton. Before H&L was published, David had worked

on an LHO book, but had not determined anything about two LHOs. I

know that David bought the H&L book, and presumably read it. He thereafter

cancelled publishing his own book. I do not know why nor what he thinks.

So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.

There is absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years

that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in

New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even

though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"

for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

NO. I do not suggest that Robert was involved in framing Harvey. What

I said was that Robert KNEW that Harvey was not his brother, but

REFRAINED FROM REVEALING THIS as a matter of self preservation.

He could have blown the whistle on the whole affair by telling what

he knew. The fact that photos of Lee and Robert make them look like

"dead ringers" was used by the perpetrators, not by Robert. Robert

was an innocent bystander. He was NOT one of the celebrated

LHO IMPOSTERS.

It may be a while before I answer more questions. My yard man is

due to be here in 30 minutes...and all of tonight is scheduled for

March Madness basketball. I will reply to the remainder of the questions

later.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

This should be very helpful. I will make my comments in bold italics.

Jim

Reply segment number one...my responses in bold.

...........

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am

referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken

to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and

you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the

one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as

"Harvey".

This is correct.

According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the

one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could

not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,

intellectual and fluent in Russian.

This is essentially correct, but Dawn Meridith is just a researcher and

what you quote is her research, not mine.

Well, I would not use the word "just". We are all researchers, save for

Judyth, who is a witness and has proven adept at research as well.

You say the one called "Harvey" was

born in Hungary and liked the name "Harvey",

This is the conclusion of Armstrong, who has studied LHO more intensively

than anyone. I accept John's research.

I presume you would agree that, if we don't even know the country in which

someone was born, what we know about them is "rather obscure"?

while Judyth says that he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent,

and hated the name "Harvey".

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

According to Judyth, "Lee knew not one single word of Hungarian. He knew

Spanish better than reported. He knew his English as well as any college

graduate, and it was Cajun-tinged. I've taken enough courses in linguistics

to have a degree in the field, including plenty of doctoral level and graduate

hours. Lee ("Harvey") was a native-born Louisiana resident who effectively

wiped out most of his accent. I have linguistic studies on Lee's speech and

of his mother's to prove it. I interviewed 400 Cajun speakers in 1997-1998

for research on Cajun speech, as efforts were made by the US government

to wipe it out. It was considered low class. Marguerite especially adopted a

higher-class way of speaking, obviously sensitive to the idea that she was

born into a Cajun-speaking milieu." This quote comes from Judyth, not me.

So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not agree with that. For instance, someone mistaking an accent

for Cajun is not "wrong", but a misinterpretation.

Presumably, that would also work the other way around, namely, that a

subtle Cajun accent might be mistaken by others for a Brooklyn accent.

And presumably, even if he liked the name "Harvey" as a child, Judyth

reports that the man she knew could not abide it. So I think we know

as least some of this has to be wrong. He cannot have been born in

Hungary, as Armstrong claims, and also in Louisiana, as Judyth claims.

And his accent is presumably either Brooklyn or Louisianan in its origin.

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather

suspect he does not.

I cannot speak for Lifton. Before H&L was published, David had worked

on an LHO book, but had not determined anything about two LHOs. I

know that David bought the H&L book, and presumably read it. He thereafter

cancelled publishing his own book. I do not know why nor what he thinks.

Well, from my conversations with him, I have the impression that he is

still at work on it. If not, I would be surprised. I hope he will tell us.

So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.

There is absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

Except we don't know where he was born or what accent he spoke with,

unless we adopt Armstrong's point of view over Judyth's. Because she

actually has training in linguistics on Cajun accents, I side with Judyth.

We know one guy was recruited by ONI while in the Marines, that he

was stationed at Atsugi, faked a defection to the USSR, returned with

a Russian wife and landed in New Orleans, where he met Judyth and

had an affair and engaged the transportation of bioweapons and . . .

Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years

that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in

New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even

though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"

for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

NO. I do not suggest that Robert was involved in framing Harvey. What

I said was that Robert KNEW that Harvey was not his brother, but

REFRAINED FROM REVEALING THIS as a matter of self preservation.

He could have blown the whistle on the whole affair by telling what

he knew. The fact that photos of Lee and Robert make them look like

"dead ringers" was used by the perpetrators, not by Robert. Robert

was an innocent bystander. He was NOT one of the celebrated

LHO IMPOSTERS.

And precisely how do you, Jack White, KNOW that Robert was NOT one

of the "celebrated" LHO imposters? How could you possibly know that?

And a guy who sleeps with the widow of the alleged assassin and helps

to frame him appears to be something less than a paragon of virtue. So

how do you know anything about what Robert did or did not do? He even

wrote a book alleging that his brother "Harvey" was the assassin. Tell me.

It may be a while before I answer more questions. My yard man is

due to be here in 30 minutes...and all of tonight is scheduled for

March Madness basketball. I will reply to the remainder of the questions

later.

Jack

Edited March 27, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Kathleen Collins]

JIM HAS MORE QUESTIONS FOR JACK ABOUT ROBERT OSWALD:

Robert Oswald has a fuzzy memory on a lot of stuff,[/b] and remember, Lee was visiting John Pic's home, not Robert's, in New York.

Robert has committed various errors and told lies as well, due to his affair with Marina shortly after Lee's death.

He 'found' the damning Imperial Reflex camera in the PAINE garage that had been so thoroughly searched...

Right after being caught with Marina....

Robert then moved into a nice new brick house that he could not have afforded before then.[/i]

Then catch what Robert has to say about his brother Lee as the assassin of JFK during a PBS "Frontline" interview:

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ews/oswald.html)

Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him. There is no question in my mind that he also shot Officer Tippit. How can you explain one without the other? I think they're inseparable. I'm talking about the police officer being shot and the president. You look at the factual data, you look at the rifle, you look at the pistol ownership, you look at his note about the Walker shooting. You look at the general opportunity -- he was present. He wasn't present when they took a head count [at the Texas School Book Depository].

I watched the deterioration of a human being. You look at that last year -- his work, his family, trying to go to Cuba, trying to go back to Russia. His wife is wanting to go back to Russia. Everything is deteriorating.

You look at all the data there, and it comes up to one conclusion as far as I'm concerned -- the Warren Commission was correct.

JIM'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE ALLEGED "EXPERTS" ON LEE HARVEY OSWALD:

These observations suggest to me that Robert was a key player in framing Lee. This is quite outrageous. You guys are supposed to be the "experts" on Lee Harvey Oswald and I have to learn about Robert having what appears to be motive, means, and opportunity to frame him from Judyth? And you guys have the nerve to challenge her background and her competence and her qualifications? The situation here is entirely outrageous. This woman appears to me to be doing more to solve the case in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald than you and John Armstrong and David S. Lifton put together.

Lee and Robert were almost as interchangeable as twins.

Jack

I, for one, have claimed on this website that Robert Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald were not related. I had a discussion with another researcher about getting Robert Oswald's DNA and comparing it to one of Marina's children. One of the girls, probably June, would like to submit her DNA. I saw her say this on youtube.

It's odd that Jack says Robert and Lee were interchangible as kids because they looked alike. This is not true -- maybe it depends on sight. The men did not look like each other. I would like Jack to show me pictures of their resemblance to one another. I maintain that the Lee who escaped from Dallas via airplane, to who knows where, was not the Lee killed by Ruby. It was the Lee who was the real brother to Robert Oswald. The one who became the "Patsy," was no relation. It was a CIA operation.

Kathy C

[Kathleen Collins]

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

I have to comment here. I believe there were 2 LHOs. But Harvey did not have a "Brooklynese" accent. We can hear him speak on 2 radio programs, a tape made in Russia and at the Dallas police dept.

In this I am an expert. I have the most "Brooklynese" accent you'd ever want to hear. I grew up in West New York, NJ which is across the Hudson river from mid-town Manhattan. My parents came from Jersey City. In no way did Harvey speak like a New Yorker.

A French accent speaking English sounds like a NY accent? My family came from Ireland. I don't know how our accents became what they were, but it's not French. I studied French in school. I recognize the accent. Not New York.

Kathy C

[Jack White]

Reply segment number two.

.............

So here are my questions:

(1) The man who died, according to you, was "Harvey", whom Judyth

knew as "Lee" and who was shot to death by Jack Ruby on 24 November.

That is correct.

(2) Although Robert was the brother of the one you call "Lee" and not of

the one Judyth knew and Ruby shot, they were "dead ringers" of each other.

No. You misunderstood. Robert and Lee were "dead ringers"...NOT Robert

and Harvey.

(3) According to your latest, #678, you have always insisted that Robert

was involved in framing the man that Judyth knew and that Ruby shot.

I have not always insisted that Robert was involved in framing Harvey

BEFORE NOVEMBER 22. I do admit that some of his actions AFTER NOVEMBER 22

were suspicious. This is especially true since he knew of the false defector

activity. Speculating, I'd say that AFTER the assassination Robert may have

been pressured by the Secret Service to "help" by doing certain things like

"discovering" that he had LHO's camera. His failure to reveal the false defector

program can be interpreted, I suppose, into failing to assert the innocence

of Harvey.

(4) In your earlier, #674, however, you state (a) that Robert likely was an

unwitting participant and ( was astounded when "Harvey" was fingered.)

Yes. Read Robert's testimony about his reaction on 11-22. Also about his

testimony on the return of LHO from Russia. He was AWARE OF THE FALSE

DEFECTOR PROGRAM, but was unwitting on any involvement in the murder.

(5) Now, if Robert was helping to frame "Harvey", how could he possibly

have been astounded when "Harvey" was blamed for the the assassination?

See above. Same answer. He went for a long nighttime drive "to sort

things out." The reported conversation in jail between Robert and LHO

has some strange clues.

(6) Reading his testimony for his reaction to the event sounds like a waste

of time when we know that (a) he "found" the Imperial Reflex camera no one

had been able to locate in the Paine's garage;

I believe the Secret Service pressured him to "discover" the camera.

( he had an affair with Marina

following her husband's death;

This is undocumented and unbecoming speculation and gossip by JVB and

others. Show me some documentation for this.

and, © he move into a nice, new brick home,

which he previously could not have afforded.

I know of no documentation on this. Please show me. Robert had worked

for many years as a brick salesman for Acme Brick Company. What is

extraordinary about a brick salesman acquiring a brick house?

What speaks louder to you?

(7) Moreover, Judyth has shown that, when you correct for distortion, the

images of "Lee" and of "Harvey" tend to converge

Distortion did not exist until someone PUT it there (JVB claimed 10%).

Laymen do not understand that a digitized image properly copied can

produce identical images an almost unlimited number of times without

ANY distortion. Back in the pre-digital days, however, it was common

for prints to be distorted, because of photo paper shrinkage. Most

8x10 prints had an eighth-inch distortion one direction because of

the paper grain shrinkage one direction...UNLESS plastic based

print materials were used. I always used them to insure no distortion.

I can easily ALSO distort an image 10% as was done by someone

with the Bringuier photo ON PURPOSE. It definitely was not "compression."

I am not accusing anyone, because I do not know the source of the photo;

however, a 10% shrinkage in one direction does not just happen; anyone

with a graphics program can do it.

, which suggests to me

that, while there may have been "two Oswalds", they are not adequately

identified as "Harvey & Lee" but instead more plausibly as "Robert & Lee":

That makes no sense at all. Robert was not involved in any way in the

plot to kill JFK. But he did have knowledge of the false defector program

and that Harvey was substituted for Lee for defection to Russia. Robert

conidered this a patriotic act during the cold war. All Marguerite did was

lend the identity of her son to someone. Nobody ever dreamed that it

would involve them in a murder.

So my question for you, my friend, is how can you reconcile what I have

just presented, especially your claims (i) that Robert was involved in the

framing of "Harvey" and (ii) that he was an unwitting participant who was

"astounded" when "Harvey" was fingered as the assassin? I don't get it.

Read Robert's testimony to the WC. Read Harvey&Lee. Then you may

get it. And again, I do NOT claim that Robert was "involved in the framing

of Harvey" with the possible exception of "finding" the Imperial Reflex...

plus his failure to exonerate Harvey when he could have.

It is plausible to me that Robert was impersonating Lee on some occasions.

That is not plausible to me. The "Lee" you speak of was HARVEY, who was

NOT his brother. Robert Oswald was NOT a part of the plot to kill JFK.

He would have NO reason to impersonate his brother unless he was a

conspirator. There is NO reason to suspect this.

And I hope you are not going to suggest that Robert "found" the Imperial

Reflex camera, had an affair with Marina, and purchased a new brick home

because he had to "play along" with the perpetrators "for safety reasons"!

Yes, when he found the situation he had been thrust into, he did whatever

the Secret Service asked him to do. Except I highly doubt the "affair with

Marina" gossip.

NOTE GRAPHIC ADDED AT BOTTOM OF POSTING.

Jack

Jim

Reply segment number one...my responses in bold.

...........

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am

referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken

to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and

you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the

one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as

"Harvey".

This is correct.

According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the

one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could

not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,

intellectual and fluent in Russian.

This is essentially correct, but Dawn Meridith is just a researcher and

what you quote is her research, not mine.

You say the one called "Harvey" was

born in Hungary and liked the name "Harvey",

This is the conclusion of Armstrong, who has studied LHO more intensively

than anyone. I accept John's research.

while Judyth's says that

he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent, and hated the name

"Harvey".

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not agree with that. For instance, someone mistaking an accent

for Cajun is not "wrong", but a misinterpretation.

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather

suspect he does not.

I cannot speak for Lifton. Before H&L was published, David had worked

on an LHO book, but had not determined anything about two LHOs. I

know that David bought the H&L book, and presumably read it. He thereafter

cancelled publishing his own book. I do not know why nor what he thinks.

So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.

There is absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years

that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in

New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even

though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"

for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

NO. I do not suggest that Robert was involved in framing Harvey. What

I said was that Robert KNEW that Harvey was not his brother, but

REFRAINED FROM REVEALING THIS as a matter of self preservation.

He could have blown the whistle on the whole affair by telling what

he knew. The fact that photos of Lee and Robert make them look like

"dead ringers" was used by the perpetrators, not by Robert. Robert

was an innocent bystander. He was NOT one of the celebrated

LHO IMPOSTERS.

It may be a while before I answer more questions. My yard man is

due to be here in 30 minutes...and all of tonight is scheduled for

March Madness basketball. I will reply to the remainder of the questions

later.

Jack

Edited March 27, 2010 by Jack White

[Jack White]

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

I have to comment here. I believe there were 2 LHOs. But Harvey did not have a "Brooklynese" accent. We can hear him speak on 2 radio programs, a tape made in Russia and at the Dallas police dept.

In this I am an expert. I have the most "Brooklynese" accent you'd ever want to hear. I grew up in West New York, NJ which is across the Hudson river from mid-town Manhattan. My parents came from Jersey City. In no way did Harvey speak like a New Yorker.

A French accent speaking English sounds like a NY accent? My family came from Ireland. I don't know how our accents became what they were, but it's not French. I studied French in school. I recognize the accent. Not New York.

Kathy C

William Timmer, who knew HARVEY when he was briefly in North Dakota, said that he spoke with a New York accent.

[Peter McGuire]

Drove my car to Wall Mart today figuring I could catch some deals before the wife got off work. Ran past some some Ford Trucks playing some country music, but was determined to catch those deals anyway.

Got inside with the other customers and went on my mission to save some money. Never bought what I went in there for, but did pass by a Chinese couple who I almost ran into.

They said: " sorry about that " in English and I was tempted to say "may guange chie" which is 'thats ok" in Chinese but I thought that might sound too wierd , so I just spoke English and moved up the isle at Wall Mart and went on my way.

In years past, when fond memories of China and Taiwan were with me, I may have struck up a conversation with

Edited March 28, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[Kathleen Collins]

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

I have to comment here. I believe there were 2 LHOs. But Harvey did not have a "Brooklynese" accent. We can hear him speak on 2 radio programs, a tape made in Russia and at the Dallas police dept.

In this I am an expert. I have the most "Brooklynese" accent you'd ever want to hear. I grew up in West New York, NJ which is across the Hudson river from mid-town Manhattan. My parents came from Jersey City. In no way did Harvey speak like a New Yorker.

A French accent speaking English sounds like a NY accent? My family came from Ireland. I don't know how our accents became what they were, but it's not French. I studied French in school. I recognize the accent. Not New York.

Kathy C

William Timmer, who knew HARVEY when he was briefly in North Dakota, said that he spoke with a New York accent.

You could take this man's word for it, but listen to the 2 radio programs and the tape from Russia where he's stumbling over English words. Listen to him speak as cops dragged him past the reporters. That's no Brooklyn accent I hear.

Kathy C

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK'S POST #674

[NOTE: I am having a hard time with this "Harvey" and "Lee" business.

I have serious doubts about it that I am going to attempt to address. If

Robert looked a great deal like "Lee" and "Lee" and "Harvey" were one

and the same, then Robert must have looked a great deal like "Harvey".

Judyth is the only one who is making any sense of "Harvey" and "Lee".]

JUDYTH RESPONDS:

Jack White writes, as if it is a proven fact:

Robert Oswald, of course, knew that Harvey was not his brother,

==Of course? What's "of course" about it? This is a profound and troubling statement.

We must look at it logically. Is there a way, besides photos and records that have been

altered or faked, to determine this?

Yes.

It is time to collect Robert Oswald's DNA.

He is still alive. We have Rachel and June Oswald, who carry half of their father's DNA.

If either will give us a sample, we can ascertain whether or not Lee Oswald was the real

brother of Robert Oswald, since enough DNA would match. I suggest that someone

close to Rachel or June simply get a hair sample, and that we get one from Robert

Oswald. No more fooling around on this.

This is like a merry-go-round.

1) Yesterday we have Jack White offering Robert Oswald as a possible 'twin' in some

photos because as brothers, they shared a similar phenotype--that is, they have so

many genes in common that many of their features are similar physically to the point

that their faces, generally speaking, show a strong familial resemblance when placed

on top of each other....

2) Despite the phenotype comparison made yesterday, today Jack White says that

Robert Oswald "of course" knew that the young man who returned from the Soviet

Union, whose face is so much like Robert's, is not his real brother and that Robert

must have known "both" Oswalds...even though the phenotype of "Lee" is rougher

and bears less resemblance to the Lee H. Oswald that he welcomed into his home

when Lee [whom Jack calls "Harvey"] returned from the USSR.

Use Occam's Razor... It is highly unlikely, just for starters, that Robert Oswald was

told (by whom?) to welcome back a man who was not his brother and "went along"

with everything. Who was Robert Oswald's real mother, then? Was it not Marguerite?

Anomalies are arising in this "two Oswald scenario -- we now have to require not

only two Marguerites but also Robert Oswald must now "know" his brother is not

his real brother....and had to be told this before Lee Oswald arrived by plane, or

otherwise he would have said, "My God! WHO ARE YOU?" when Lee and Marina

met him after arriving at the airport.

Such anomalies have to be covered by pulling Robert Oswald into the mix, saying

he knew "both" Oswalds, that he obviously had to know the "Lee" and the "Harvey"

-- this is unreasonable.

I agree that Robert Oswald got compromised -- via his bad behavior with Marina.

But his "finding" the Imperial Reflex camera immediately afterward shows WHEN

he was compromised.==

and to this day he "cooperates" with the perpetrators, as does Marina...for safety

reasons.

==No. Robert would have no such reason to "cooperate" with "perpetrators" over

a year earlier, when Lee first arrived by plane and spent some time with Robert's

family, including Thanksgiving, when we have photos of them all together, before

briefly moving in with his mother Marguerite until he had a job and apartment for

himself, his wife and baby.==

Robert, Marina and Ruth Paine are the only remaining living persons who

knew both Harvey and Lee. If they were to tell what they know, the case

would be solved.

==Now we must also add Ruth Paine into the mix, too? What about Michael Paine?

Was he left out? Ruth never told him? Did Robert Oswald never tell his wife "this

guy is not really my brother?" But instead kept it to himself for the next forty-five

years or so? How about CIA people who are supposed to have set this two-family

system up? Did hey die and take this to the grave with them? And what happened

to the 'other' Marguerite--the all, slender Marguerie? Did she vanish into some

witness protecton program forever immediately after her usefulness was over? We

are getting deeper and deeper into a morass.==

Robert likely was an unwitting participant.

==How can this be possible -- for him to be "unwitting" -- when Jack says, quote:

"Robert, Marina and Ruth Paine are the only remaining living persons who knew

both Harvey and Lee" -- how can they be both KNOWING and also UNWITTING?==

Because both he and Lee were Marines, and they looked very much alike, the military

had photos and records of both to use in creating confusion in the official record.

==That is a non-sequitur. [That is simple speculation with no apparent foundation.]==

I am fairly certain that photos of Robert were in some cases used to portray Lee.

==If there is a foundation for this speculation, it would be nice to have some proof==

Of course Robert was ASTOUNDED when the assassination happened and Harvey was

named the assassin.

==Why? This would seem to be independent of Robert "knowing both Harvey and Lee."==

What he had assumed was a rather benign assignment of Lee took a very terrible turn.

Read his testimony for his reaction to the event.

==I have read it and find the normal and usual stock. There is no hint that he knew

"another" Oswald.==

JVB

Jack

Robert Oswald, of course, knew that Harvey was not his brother, and to this

day he "cooperates" with the perpetrators, as does Marina...for safety reasons.

Robert, Marina and Ruth Paine are the only remaining living persons who

knew both Harvey and Lee. If they were to tell what they know, the case

would be solved.

Robert likely was an unwitting participant. Because both he and Lee were

Marines, and they looked very much alike, the military had photos and

records of both to use in creating confusion in the official record. I am

fairly certain that photos of Robert were in some cases used to portray

Lee. Of course Robert was ASTOUNDED when the assassination happened

and Harvey was named the assassin. What he had assumed was a rather

benign assignment of Lee took a very terrible turn. Read his testimony for

his reaction to the event.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

No offense to William Timmer, how in the world would he have known he was listening to

"Harvey"? Surely the weight of the evidence here favors Kathleen. This is a nice example

of the "Harvey & Lee" methodology. Someone who can reasonably be qualified as a voice

expert (Kathleen) offers the opinion (which she appears to be qualified to advance) that

the man who was arrested (allegedly "Harvey") did NOT have a Brooklyn accent, but Jack

and John (presumably) are able to pull up Timmer who says the guy he encountered had

a "New York" accent, when Judyth, who is more expert than the rest of us (having studied

linguistics) has observed that the differences between Cajun and Broollyn might fool many.

Whom did Timmer encounter? How do we know? What is the basis for his determination?

The impression is building that claims about differences in the differences between photos

and voices that may not be real are the flimsy foundation for the theory of "two Oswalds".

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

I have to comment here. I believe there were 2 LHOs. But Harvey did not have a "Brooklynese" accent. We can hear him speak on 2 radio programs, a tape made in Russia and at the Dallas police dept.

In this I am an expert. I have the most "Brooklynese" accent you'd ever want to hear. I grew up in West New York, NJ which is across the Hudson river from mid-town Manhattan. My parents came from Jersey City. In no way did Harvey speak like a New Yorker.

A French accent speaking English sounds like a NY accent? My family came from Ireland. I don't know how our accents became what they were, but it's not French. I studied French in school. I recognize the accent. Not New York.

Kathy C

William Timmer, who knew HARVEY when he was briefly in North Dakota, said that he spoke with a New York accent.

[Jack White]

The above reply indicates a lack of understanding of the FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM.

Here is the probable scenario.

1. With her family's knowledge, Marguerite took Lee to New York for "mental testing".

2. The mental testing turned out to be a CIA operation to look for candidates to LEND

THEIR IDENTITY TO THE CIA for a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM.

3. Marguerite, Robert and John Pic all considered this PATRIOTIC.

4. There was NO RISK to Lee; all he was doing was allowing his identity to be used.

5. This happened when Lee was 12 or 13 years old; he probably liked the intrigue of it...

his name being used by a spy being trained.

6. Marguerite likely received much needed compensation for doing this.

7. Armstrong documents how when Marguerite returns to Fort Worth, she began

buying real estate, though said to be destitute.

8. John Pic was first to say that there was a substitute for his half brother. A photo

of Harvey playing hookey at the Bronx Zoo during the New York stay Pic said was

not anyone he recognized.

9. Robert knew of the operation from the beginning, but did not meet HARVEY

until the Thanksgiving Reunion.

10. Lee and Harvey clearly knew each other according to Armstrong's timelines.

11. Ruth Paine was clearly the handler for both Lee and Harvey, and both of them

were involved in the JFK plot, though not witting that Harvey was to be the PATSY.

12. It was arranged that Harvey lived in a rooming house during the week, while

Lee lived at the Paine house.

13. Lee lived at the Paine house on weekends only; it is not known where Lee

lived on weekends.

14. It should be remembered that Marina said: I HAD TWO HUSBANDS, HARVEY

AND LEE.

(“I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man;

and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy.”)

Jack

Edited March 28, 2010 by Jack White

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Reply segment number two.

.............

So here are my questions:

(1) The man who died, according to you, was "Harvey", whom Judyth

knew as "Lee" and who was shot to death by Jack Ruby on 24 November.

That is correct.

(2) Although Robert was the brother of the one you call "Lee" and not of

the one Judyth knew and Ruby shot, they were "dead ringers" of each other.

This "Harvey" and "Lee" business is driving me up the wall. I am talking

about the guy who was in the Marine Corps AND who was at Thanksgiving

dinner with Marina in relation to Robert, whose face you partially impose

over the one I am talking about and who is sitting in front of him at the

Thanksgiving dinner. I do not believe there is anyone who looks like the

"Hunting Lee", which appears to me to be a very crude fabrication. I am

impressed by Judyth's analysis of the photos that the ones you seem to

find most distinctive of "Lee" versus "Harvey" can be explained by a far

simpler theory on the basis of distortions in the images that are either

accidental or deliberate--where I am inclined to believe that they have

been manufactured to support the fantastic theory of "Harvey & Lee".

No. You misunderstood. Robert and Lee were "dead ringers"...NOT

Robert and Harvey.

But of course if there really was only one guy and a variety of photos,

which may or may not withstand critical inspection, then the brother

Robert would have resembled Harvey no less than he did Lee, right?

(3) According to your latest, #678, you have always insisted that Robert

was involved in framing the man that Judyth knew and that Ruby shot.

I have not always insisted that Robert was involved in framing Harvey

BEFORE NOVEMBER 22. I do admit that some of his actions AFTER NOVEMBER 22

were suspicious. This is especially true since he knew of the false defector

activity. Speculating, I'd say that AFTER the assassination Robert may have

been pressured by the Secret Service to "help" by doing certain things like

"discovering" that he had LHO's camera. His failure to reveal the false defector

program can be interpreted, I suppose, into failing to assert the innocence

of Harvey.

Robert, of course, has not only not asserted "Harvey's" innocence but has

actively declared his guilt, and I explained in relation to his PBS interview,

which I found shocking, not to mention that he has written a book in which

he explains why he is convinced that his brother--he certainly affirms that

they were brothers here!--and provides a classic vindication of the Warren

commission's lone-gunman theory. Given his affair with Marina, his "find"

of the Imperial Reflex, and coming into a new home he could not afford, I

cannot imagine why any student of the assassination would believe in him.

(4) In your earlier, #674, however, you state (a) that Robert likely was an

unwitting participant and ( was astounded when "Harvey" was fingered.)

Yes. Read Robert's testimony about his reaction on 11-22. Also about his

testimony on the return of LHO from Russia. He was AWARE OF THE FALSE

DEFECTOR PROGRAM, but was unwitting on any involvement in the murder.

I can't wait to learn more about "the false defector program". This sounds

like something dreamed up just for this occasion as an ad hoc explanation.

(5) Now, if Robert was helping to frame "Harvey", how could he possibly

have been astounded when "Harvey" was blamed for the the assassination?

See above. Same answer. He went for a long nighttime drive "to sort

things out." The reported conversation in jail between Robert and LHO

has some strange clues.

Judyth has been accused of being a "fantasist" when you offer this?

(6) Reading his testimony for his reaction to the event sounds like a waste

of time when we know that (a) he "found" the Imperial Reflex camera no one

had been able to locate in the Paine's garage;

I believe the Secret Service pressured him to "discover" the camera.

So he held his brother in such regard that he was willing to frame him!

( he had an affair with Marina following her husband's death;

This is undocumented and unbecoming speculation and gossip by JVB and

others. Show me some documentation for this.

Jack, if we start asking for documentation, I don't think there is much

left of your "defense" of Robert, but I will ask Judyth to address the issue.

and, © he move into a nice, new brick home, which he previously could not

have afforded.

I know of no documentation on this. Please show me. Robert had worked

for many years as a brick salesman for Acme Brick Company. What is

extraordinary about a brick salesman acquiring a brick house?

Well, I suppose it has to do with income and cost and mortgages and stuff

like that, don't you think? But I will invited Judyth to say more about it.

What speaks louder to you?

(7) Moreover, Judyth has shown that, when you correct for distortion, the

images of "Lee" and of "Harvey" tend to converge

Distortion did not exist until someone PUT it there (JVB claimed 10%).

Laymen do not understand that a digitized image properly copied can

produce identical images an almost unlimited number of times without

ANY distortion. Back in the pre-digital days, however, it was common

for prints to be distorted, because of photo paper shrinkage. Most

8x10 prints had an eighth-inch distortion one direction because of

the paper grain shrinkage one direction...UNLESS plastic based

print materials were used. I always used them to insure no distortion.

I can easily ALSO distort an image 10% as was done by someone

with the Bringuier photo ON PURPOSE. It definitely was not "compression."

I am not accusing anyone, because I do not know the source of the photo;

however, a 10% shrinkage in one direction does not just happen; anyone

with a graphics program can do it.

So I take it you and she agree that distortion is present in that photo,

even though you had previously asserted that they were identical?

which suggests to me that, while there may have been "two Oswalds",

they are not adequately identified as "Harvey & Lee" but instead more

plausibly as "Robert & Lee":

That makes no sense at all. Robert was not involved in any way in the

plot to kill JFK. But he did have knowledge of the false defector program

and that Harvey was substituted for Lee for defection to Russia. Robert

conidered this a patriotic act during the cold war. All Marguerite did was

lend the identity of her son to someone. Nobody ever dreamed that it

would involve them in a murder.

Well, this is called "begging the question" by taking for granted an answer

that requires independent establishment. IF ROBERT WAS IMPERSONATING

HIS BROTHER (WHOM YOU CALL "HARVEY"), THEN IT CASTS AN ENTIRELY

NEW LIGHT UPON THE SITUATION. GIVEN HIS OBVIOUS LACK OF LOYALTY

TO "HARVEY" AND HIS ONGOING EFFORTS TO CONVICT HIM OF A CRIME

THAT WE ALL KNOW, ON INDEPENDENT GROUNDS, HE DID NOT COMMIT,

I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ADOPT SUCH A NAIVE ATTITUDE HERE.

So my question for you, my friend, is how can you reconcile what I have

just presented, especially your claims (i) that Robert was involved in the

framing of "Harvey" and (ii) that he was an unwitting participant who was

"astounded" when "Harvey" was fingered as the assassin? I don't get it.

Read Robert's testimony to the WC. Read Harvey&Lee. Then you may

get it. And again, I do NOT claim that Robert was "involved in the framing

of Harvey" with the possible exception of "finding" the Imperial Reflex...

plus his failure to exonerate Harvey when he could have.

It is plausible to me that Robert was impersonating Lee on some occasions.

That is not plausible to me. The "Lee" you speak of was HARVEY, who was

NOT his brother. Robert Oswald was NOT a part of the plot to kill JFK.

He would have NO reason to impersonate his brother unless he was a

conspirator. There is NO reason to suspect this.

THE STUNNING DEGREE OF FAMILY RESEMBLANCE STRONGLY SUGGESTS

THAT YOU ARE WRONG. AND JUDYTH HAS PROPOSED WAYS TO PURSUE

IT. I MUST ADMIT THAT, WHEN YOU HAVE INSISTED SO STRONGLY THAT

ROBERT AND "HARVEY" WERE NOT BROTHERS, I'VE HAD TO ASK MYSELF,

"Well, then, what were they? Step-brothers? Was one of them adopted?"

NOW I DISCOVER THAT THIS CLAIM IS SIMPLY PART OF AN ELABORATE

THEORY FOR WHICH THE EVIDENCE APPEARS TO BE HIGHLY DUBIOUS.

And I hope you are not going to suggest that Robert "found" the Imperial

Reflex camera, had an affair with Marina, and purchased a new brick home

because he had to "play along" with the perpetrators "for safety reasons"!

Yes, when he found the situation he had been thrust into, he did whatever

the Secret Service asked him to do. Except I highly doubt the "affair with

Marina" gossip.

NOTE GRAPHIC ADDED AT BOTTOM OF POSTING.

Jack

Jim

Reply segment number one...my responses in bold.

...........

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am

referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken

to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and

you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the

one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as

"Harvey".

This is correct.

According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the

one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could

not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,

intellectual and fluent in Russian.

This is essentially correct, but Dawn Meridith is just a researcher and

what you quote is her research, not mine.

You say the one called "Harvey" was born in Hungary and liked the name

"Harvey",

This is the conclusion of Armstrong, who has studied LHO more intensively

than anyone. I accept John's research.

while Judyth's says that he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent,

and hated the name

"Harvey".

Harvey had a NEW YORK (BROOKLYN) type of accent, not Cajun. He

was raised in New York, not Louisiana. Brooklyn accents are often

mistaken for Cajun. Cajun is a corruption of Arcadian, as many

Louisiana residents were Arcadians (from Canada) who spoke French.

As they learned English, it was with a French accent, which is close

to Brooklynese. As for hating the name Harvey, JVB is unfamiliar

with the teacher at Beauregard Junior High interviewed by John,

Myra LaRouse, who remembered LHO well, and insisted that she

call him Harvey.

So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not agree with that. For instance, someone mistaking an accent

for Cajun is not "wrong", but a misinterpretation.

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather

suspect he does not.

I cannot speak for Lifton. Before H&L was published, David had worked

on an LHO book, but had not determined anything about two LHOs. I

know that David bought the H&L book, and presumably read it. He thereafter

cancelled publishing his own book. I do not know why nor what he thinks.

So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.

There is absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years

that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in

New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even

though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"

for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

NO. I do not suggest that Robert was involved in framing Harvey. What

I said was that Robert KNEW that Harvey was not his brother, but

REFRAINED FROM REVEALING THIS as a matter of self preservation.

He could have blown the whistle on the whole affair by telling what

he knew. The fact that photos of Lee and Robert make them look like

"dead ringers" was used by the perpetrators, not by Robert. Robert

was an innocent bystander. He was NOT one of the celebrated

LHO IMPOSTERS.

It may be a while before I answer more questions. My yard man is

due to be here in 30 minutes...and all of tonight is scheduled for

March Madness basketball. I will reply to the remainder of the questions

later.

Jack

Edited March 28, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH OFFERS OBSERVATIONS ABOUT JACK'S POSTS:

Jim, Jack's reply is a classic example of cognitive dissonance behavior.

He says he isn't reading my posts but then says that he "seldom read(s)

them carefully because they are repetitive and predictable." As anyone

knows who has been following this thread, this is a false characterization

of the nature of these posts. I have been presenting new information all

along, or little-known information. Jack prefers to mow the grass because

that is a different behavior--it is avoidance behavior. When pigeons are

frustrated and cannot reach grain behind a plate of glass, in cognitive

dissonance frustration, they peck at something they can reach instead!

Jack cuts grass and decides not to read the posts, like the fox and the

grapes, which the fox calls "sour" because he cannot reach them --

Jack is saying my posts are repetitive and predicable, when they are

no such thing, and he would rather mow grass. And at time like this!==

Jack can choose to: (1) attack, (2) apologize and join wholeheartedly

into trying to find out the whole truth, in a good spirit of cooperation --

hard on the ego but wonderful as to having his great skills available in

the matter -- or (3) he can ignore, and peck a something else besides

the glass -- in this case, at his grass==

I have not evaded anything. I have been busy with doctor and dental

appointments and mowing my grass. I spend little time on the computer

now that the weather is nice. The long ALL CAPS

==because of vision problems--I apologize wish I could do better==

and abusive ramblings of JVB

==Not ramblings. Not abusive. Trying to speak kindly and with respect,

despite the way I am being described by Jack. Now you see what Jack

'means' when he said I was 'abusive' at the DellaRosa forum....Am I

being abusive, or just pointing out what should not be ignored or even

proclaimed without careful inspection?==

are very difficult to wade thru, and I seldom read them

carefully because they are repetitive and predictable.

==Sorry -- he's 'seldom' reading my posts, but yet he expects me to

read his posts and answer him and, if not, I am being evasive.==

JVB

I have not evaded anything. I have been busy with

doctor and dental appointments and mowing my grass.

I spend little time on the computer now that the weather

is nice. The long ALL CAPS and abusive ramblings of JVB

are very difficult to wade thru, and I seldom read them

carefully because they are repetitive and predictable.

To learn John Armstrong's methodology, read the book.

He footnotes extensively and tells about every source.

If you can find a questionable documentation, please

let us know about it.

He depended VERY LARGELY on interviews of people

who knew the Oswald family. He and Robert Groden

videotaped many of these interviews. He specifically

quotes interviews as sources. Interviews cannot be faked.

If there are fake documents, the WC was taken in by them

because most assassination documents he uses were also

used by the WC. There is no way other public record

documents can be faked, because he made extensive use

of city directories, phone books, court records, real estate

transactions, etc...none of which can be fabricated because

they pre-existed 1963. Fabrication of a telephone book

that was a print run of 200,000 is obviously impossible.

I am not aware of anything I have purposely evaded

if I know the answer. Please rephrase (brief one sentence

questions) any thing you want me to answer. I may have

missed them in the mass of ALL CAPS TYPING used by

JVB. The reason the previous posting seemed a combination

of writing by you and JVB was the ALL CAPS TYPING that

is her trademark. Some of the remarks seemed to be hers.

I do not understand your questioning of the authenticity of

certain publicly published photos. The funeral photo of

Marina, Robert and Marguerite, for instance, was taken and

published by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram the next day.

There was no reason for the newspaper or anyone else

to "fake" it, yet you question whether it is authentic.

As for his uncle Murret tying LHO to the mafia, that is

undocumented and undocumentable. LHO's association with

Uncle Dutz was under the age of 5 and around the age of 14.

It is most dubious that these childhood associations with

a relative would have made either LHO a mafioso.

I am growing very tired of unwarranted accusations about

me, my intelligence, my motives and my research.

I have nothing but pity for this poor quixotic person who has

abandoned a potentially productive life for a person of her

obvious intelligence in order to promote her illicit affair with

a married man.

Jack

JIM DIRECTS SOME QUESTIONS TO JACK ABOUT ROBERT:

WHEN I ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES OF SELECTION

THAT JOHN ARMSTRONG USED TO DETERMINE WHICH RECORDS

AND DOCUMENTS WERE GENUINE AND WHICH NOT, YOU OFFER

NO RESPONSE. THAT SUGGESTS HE VACUUMED ALL OF THEM UP.

I AM ALSO CONCERNED WITH THE PROVENANCE OF THE PHOTOS

OF THE SECOND MARGUERITE. MY FATHER'S SECOND WIFE WAS

ALSO NAMED "MARGUERITE". I COULD OFFER PHOTOGRAPHS OF

HER AND IDENTIFY HER AS A "SECOND MARGUERITE" AS WELL.

THE POINT I AM MAKING, JACK, IS THAT IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO

FIND PHOTOS AND MAKE CLAIMS ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF THOSE

SHOWN. IF JOHN HAD NO PRINCIPLES FOR SORTING DOCUMENTS,

WHAT DID HE DO TO DETERMINE THE PROVENANCE OF PHOTOS?

AND IT APPEARS RATHER OBVIOUS AT THIS POINT IN TIME THAT

SOME OF THE IMAGES OF "THE TWO OSWALDS" ARE PHONY OR

FAKED. KATHY SPOTTED IT AND JUDYTH AGREES AS DO I THAT

ONE ON WHICH YOU HEAVILY DEPEND APPEARS TO BE ALTERED.

I THINK YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES.

MORE AND MORE, IT APPEARS TO ME THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN

CHILD'S PLAY TO CREATE A PARALLEL IMPERSONATION. I HAVE

HIS BOOK, BUT I WOULD APPRECIATE HAVING SOME ANSWERS.

AND HASN'T ROBERT BEEN DISPOSED TO SUPPORT THE THEORY

THAT HIS BROTHER WAS THE ASSASSIN? SINCE THAT IS PURE

FANTASY, DOESN'T THAT SUGGEST THAT HE (ROBERT) MAY HAVE

BEEN DEEPLY INVOLVED? WHO BETTER TO IMPERSONATE LEE?

IF YOU AND JOHN DON'T HAVE DIRECT, CONVINCING ANSWERS

TO THESE QUESTIONS, THEN I AM GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME

TAKING ALL OF THIS SERIOUSLY. YOU HAD AN OBVIOUS DOUBLE

AT HAND. HOW MUCH TIME HAVE YOU SPENT IN STUDYING HIM?

IS IT POSSIBLE ROBERT COULD HAVE BEEN A "SECOND OSWALD"?

DID YOU AND JOHN ATTEMPT TO TRACK ROBERT'S WHEREABOUTS

ON CRUCIAL DATES? THE PHOTO ABOVE ON THE LEFT DOES NOT

LOOK TO ME REMOTELY LIKE LEE OSWALD. I DOUBT THAT IT IS.

Lee and Robert were almost as interchangeable as twins.

Jack

Edited March 28, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM COMMENTS ON THE ALLEGED "HUNTING PHOTO OF LEE"

Let me state that his "hunting photo of Lee" categorically falsifies your

theory. "Lee", of course, on your scenario, was in the Marine Corps. I

can assure you that no one who had ever served in the Marine Corps

would hold a rifle or shotgun in the manner shown here. They would

have the weapon across their arms, cradled with the end pointed up-

ward. They would never display the casual, grab-ass behavior that is

displayed by the "Lee" of your photograph, which, as I have observed

before, looks like a completely phony photo in any case. But once a

man has served in the Marine Corps and acquired a minimal degree of

competence with a rifle, they would not handle a long gun as shown.

Either the man in the photo is not your "Lee" or the photo is a phony.

I will reply to your questions in segments, because the forum format is

not good for a "mass reply".

Segments to follow.

Jack

Jack,

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am

referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken

to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and

you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the

one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as

"Harvey". According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the

one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could

not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,

intellectual and fluent in Russian. You say the one called "Harvey" was

born in Hungary and liked the name "Harvey", while Judyth's says that

he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent, and hated the name

"Harvey". So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather

suspect he does not. So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.

Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years

that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in

New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even

though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"

for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

Today, 05:23 PM

Post #674

Super Member

****

Group: Members

Posts: 7127

Joined: 26-April 04

Member No.: 667

Robert Oswald, of course, knew that Harvey was not his brother, and to this

day he "cooperates" with the perpetrators, as does Marina...for safety reasons.

Robert, Marina and Ruth Paine are the only remaining living persons who

knew both Harvey and Lee. If they were to tell what they know, the case

would be solved.

Robert likely was an unwitting participant. Because both he and Lee were

Marines, and they looked very much alike, the military had photos and

records of both to use in creating confusion in the official record. I am

fairly certain that photos of Robert were in some cases used to portray

Lee. Of course Robert was ASTOUNDED when the assassination happened

and Harvey was named the assassin. What he had assumed was a rather

benign assignment of Lee took a very terrible turn. Read his testimony for

his reaction to the event.

Jack

So here are my questions:

(1) The man who died, according to you, was "Harvey", whom Judyth

knew as "Lee" and who was shot to death by Jack Ruby on 24 November.

(2) Although Robert was the brother of the one you call "Lee" and not of

the one Judyth knew and Ruby shot, they were "dead ringers" of each other.

(3) According to your latest, #678, you have always insisted that Robert

was involved in framing the man that Judyth knew and that Ruby shot.

(4) In your earlier, #674, however, you state (a) that Robert likely was an

unwitting participant and ( was astounded when "Harvey" was fingered.

(5) Now, if Robert was helping to frame "Harvey", how could he possibly

have been astounded when "Harvey" was blamed for the the assassination?

(6) Reading his testimony for his reaction to the event sounds like a waste

of time when we know that (a) he "found" the Imperial Reflex camera no one

had been able to locate in the Paine's garage; ( he had an affair with Marina

following her husband's death; and, © he move into a nice, new brick home,

which he previously could not have afforded. What speaks louder to you?

(7) Moreover, Judyth has shown that, when you correct for distortion, the

images of "Lee" and of "Harvey" tend to converge, which suggests to me

that, while there may have been "two Oswalds", they are not adequately

identified as "Harvey & Lee" but instead more plausibly as "Robert & Lee":

So my question for you, my friend, is how can you reconcile what I have

just presented, especially your claims (i) that Robert was involved in the

framing of "Harvey" and (ii) that he was an unwitting participant who was

"astounded" when "Harvey" was fingered as the assassin? I don't get it.

It is plausible to me that Robert was impersonating Lee on some occasions.

And I hope you are not going to suggest that Robert "found" the Imperial

Reflex camera, had an affair with Marina, and purchased a new brick home

because he had to "play along" with the perpetrators "for safety reasons"!

Jim

Who are the YOU GUYS you refer to?

What are your questions?

I have always said that Robert Oswald participated in the framing of Harvey.

Harvey was not his brother, so he cooperated in framing him. Now what is

your question about this opinion? Are you saying I am wrong about Robert?

I have long said that some photos of "Lee" are really of Robert. Are you

disputing this? Your questions are not clear.

It is clear to me that Robert helped frame "LHO". I have said this for about

thirty years. Are you disputing this? I do not understand your accusation.

Jack

JIM HAS MORE QUESTIONS FOR JACK ABOUT ROBERT OSWALD:

In post #469 on page 32, Judyth made the following observations:

I knew that Lee was aware of and even wanted impersonations. We covered up our tracks very well and after Lee left Reily, I could never dare meet him outside there anymore.

Just trying to say, when you know the man, you know some things simply aren’t true.

Then it's easy to find what is true and present it.

Lee told me he even had a relative there. In New Orleans, two of his relatives were working for Reily when he was, and one worker describes a relative as smoking who was actually Lee, as Lee mentioned his male relative smoked.

People should notice that the boy is leaning back...the photo itself has been altered slightly around the nose ...as many other photos, as well...also, though this is supposed to be the Bronx Zoo, Robert Oswald has a fuzzy memory on a lot of stuff, and remember, Lee was visiting John Pic's home, not Robert's, in New York.

Robert has committed various errors and told lies as well, due to his affair with Marina shortly after Lee's death.

He 'found' the damning Imperial Reflex camera in the PAINE garage that had been so thoroughly searched...

Right after being caught with Marina....

Robert then moved into a nice new brick house that he could not have afforded before then.

Then catch what Robert has to say about his brother Lee as the assassin of JFK during a PBS "Frontline" interview:

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ews/oswald.html)

Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him. There is no question in my mind that he also shot Officer Tippit. How can you explain one without the other? I think they're inseparable. I'm talking about the police officer being shot and the president. You look at the factual data, you look at the rifle, you look at the pistol ownership, you look at his note about the Walker shooting. You look at the general opportunity -- he was present. He wasn't present when they took a head count [at the Texas School Book Depository].

I watched the deterioration of a human being. You look at that last year -- his work, his family, trying to go to Cuba, trying to go back to Russia. His wife is wanting to go back to Russia. Everything is deteriorating.

You look at all the data there, and it comes up to one conclusion as far as I'm concerned -- the Warren Commission was correct.

JIM'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE ALLEGED "EXPERTS" ON LEE HARVEY OSWALD:

These observations suggest to me that Robert was a key player in framing Lee. This is quite outrageous. You guys are supposed to be the "experts" on Lee Harvey Oswald and I have to learn about Robert having what appears to be motive, means, and opportunity to frame him from Judyth? And you guys have the nerve to challenge her background and her competence and her qualifications? The situation here is entirely outrageous. This woman appears to me to be doing more to solve the case in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald than you and John Armstrong and David S. Lifton put together.

Lee and Robert were almost as interchangeable as twins.

Jack

Edited March 28, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

COMMENTS ON "THE TWO OSWALDS" AND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE

Judyth and I are gravitating toward the same position about this "two Oswalds"

business, which she has expressed here as well as I could have put it myself:

FROM WHAT WE ARE SEEING, THIS "HARVEY AND LEE" THING HAS BEEN A

DISTRACTION OF MAJOR PROPORTIONS IN THIS CASE...SUCCESSFUL, NEARLY,

IN ISOLATING "HARVEY" AS HAVING LITTLE TO DO WITH THE PLOT AND VERY

CONVENIENT TO SAY HE WAS UNWITTINGLY TRAPPED, SO THAT HIS HEROIC

ACTIONS IN TRYING TO SAVE JFK WOULD NEVER BE RECOGNIZED OR EVER

BELIEVED BY SOME VERY FINE RESEARCHERS...AND IF A WITNESS COMES

ALONG SAYING OTHERWISE, THEN THEY COULD BE QUICKLY DISMISSED.

I THANK GOD I KNEW THE REAL LEE. I HAVE NOT YET BEGUN TO FIGHT.

But of course all of this will be explained by "the false defector program"!

WHILE TAKING A SHOWER, I STARTED TO THINK ABOUT SUCH A PROGRAM:

1) IT MUST HAVE BEEN ADVERTISED NATIONALLY, SO MARGUERITE WOULD

BE ABLE TO READ ABOUT IT;

2) CHILDREN AND PARENTS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WOULD HAVE

DESCENDED UPON NEW YORK;

3) WITH ALL THE ATTENTION, THE SOVIETS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES WOULD

NO DOUBT HAVE LEARNED ABOUT IT;

4) IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PLACED UNDER SURVEILLANCE AND THOSE WHO

WERE RECRUITED WOULD HAVE BEEN TRACKED;

5) SO WHEN THE TIME CAME FOR A FAKE DEFECTION, THE SOVIETS WOULD

HAVE ALREADY KNOWN WHO WAS COMING;

6) WHICH MEANS THAT A PROGRAM OF THAT KIND WOULD SURELY HAVE BEEN

SELF-DEFEATING; WHICH MEANS

7) ANY RECRUITING PROGRAM WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN COVERT

AND RUN THROUGH THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS;

8) WHERE INVITATIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTENDED UNDER THE MOST

CAREFULLY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS; AND,

9) SECRECY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE WATCHWORD--MASSIVE, TOTAL, AND

COMPLETE AND UTTER SECRECY.

SO FAR AS I AM ABLE TO DISCERN. THE PROGRAM DESCRIBED HERE WOULD

HAVE BEEN A MANIFEST ABSURDITY.

The above reply indicates a lack of understanding of the FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM.

Here is the probable scenario.

1. With her family's knowledge, Marguerite took Lee to New York for "mental testing".

2. The mental testing turned out to be a CIA operation to look for candidates to LEND

THEIR IDENTITY TO THE CIA for a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM.

3. Marguerite, Robert and John Pic all considered this PATRIOTIC.

4. There was NO RISK to Lee; all he was doing was allowing his identity to be used.

5. This happened when Lee was 12 or 13 years old; he probably liked the intrigue of it...

his name being used by a spy being trained.

6. Marguerite likely received much needed compensation for doing this.

7. Armstrong documents how when Marguerite returns to Fort Worth, she began

buying real estate, though said to be destitute.

8. John Pic was first to say that there was a substitute for his half brother. A photo

of Harvey playing hookey at the Bronx Zoo during the New York stay Pic said was

not anyone he recognized.

9. Robert knew of the operation from the beginning, but did not meet HARVEY

until the Thanksgiving Reunion.

10. Lee and Harvey clearly knew each other according to Armstrong's timelines.

11. Ruth Paine was clearly the handler for both Lee and Harvey, and both of them

were involved in the JFK plot, though not witting that Harvey was to be the PATSY.

12. It was arranged that Harvey lived in a rooming house during the week, while

Lee lived at the Paine house.

13. Lee lived at the Paine house on weekends only; it is not known where Lee

lived on weekends.

14. It should be remembered that Marina said: I HAD TWO HUSBANDS, HARVEY

AND LEE.

(“I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man;

and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy.”)

Jack

Edited March 28, 2010 by James H. Fetzer