Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Linda Minor]

http://www.cancun.bz/cancun_info/cancun_history.php

Cancun City History

Four decades ago, Cancun was a deserted island and few even knew of its existence. Located in a nearly forgotten region of the Caribbean, it consisted of a series of sand dunes in the shape of a number “7" –some parts of which were only 20 meters (66 ft) wide– separated from the mainland by two narrow canals that opened out on to a huge lagoon system.

The coast was comprised of marshes, mangroves, virgin jungle and unexplored beaches. Even its name was not clear: some maps called it “Kankun” (a single word written with the two “k’s”), which means “pot of snakes” or “nest of snakes” in Maya language.

However, in the first Infratur documents (a government agency existing prior to the creation of Fonatur), it is written as two words, “Kan Kun,” and occasionally, “Can Cun” (in its Spanish form). The current name of “Cancun” is a natural phonetic development that facilitates pronunciation... or maybe it developed by mere chance.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO BARB JUNKKARENIN

Back in 1963, there was no Cancun, as Barb and Rottweilers have made clear over and over for years, but I always meant "KanKun", which everybody then wrote as "Cancun", which McAdams & clan have driven into the ground -- that this was an anachronism.

And on this single word hangs their entire claim, ignoring witnesses alive and dead-- and much more. They will find something else. What they say is, "We have raised all these objections and you still believe her?", as if the most if not all of the objections they raised have not been met with reasonable explanations. Then they say, "She always explains her way out of it!", as if my having to explain things means I am not telling the truth. It is a twisted kind of illogic:

1) We bring up lots of objections;

2) She has to explain them away;

3) But she has to explain too many things (what we bring up); therefore,

4) She must be telling a most improbable 'yarn' and should not be believed.

This is their means to discredit me, that even if I explain every objection, here are too many objections...However, it is they who are creating what in almost every case are simply ARTIFICIAL OBJECTIONS.

1) Some are based on literal readings, such as Johann Rush assuming that when I said "bulky camera" were brought to the leaf- letting scene at the trade mart, that I HAD to mean one of those huge rolling news cameras used for major events -- Huh? For a leafletting going on on a street corner? I am the daughter of a TV station half-owner and so I went to the Internet to show what I meant and Rush called it "reprehensible" to try and find something to match my description -- which turned out to describe the kind of camera he had almost exactly! -- Or that "Cancun" excluded any other name, when I literally meant "KanKun". In fact, it strengthens my testimony, because I have insisted there was a KanKun village and area there, and Linda Minor has provided the proof.

or,

2) They are based on insufficient knowledge, causing them to jump to conclusions, such as Lifton thinking he knew Lee Oswald brought a suit with him because he was described as wearing a suit on April 26...When I knew the real situation, as a witness who was there, and have INSISTED, as he stresses, that Lee was not dressed in a suit (though I did say he was very neat and clean-cut looking, although I think his pants were somewhat wrinkled)...Still, they were very clean...Nor did Lifton bother to ask me what time Lee and I met which, as I have thoroughly documented, was early in the day.

or, worst of all,

3) They are based on things others say I said, such as things Jack White has posted, or on their 'memory' of what I said -- which they spread far and wide when they converse with each other, so that fine researchers such as Jim Dieugenio will not even look at anything I have to say....Including such hearsay, as: "Look, she was ejected from DellaRosa's forum for being abusive there." So that I have had to laboriously prove, by going through endless old emails, to show it was not true..draining my eyesight and strength and will to keep fighting, because this has been going on for a decade.

For the first time I have skilled help, and God knows I am grateful that I am not being buried under McAdams & Co's hearsay and false statements...

God bless you!

---------------------------

Barb is just inserting herself to stop the information flow.

Note on attached map that Playa del Carmen, near Cozumel, is in Quinano Roo, but actually not very far from the Yucatan, and the name of the book describing Chichen Itza that was popular in 1963 (summer) was based upon old travel books that did not make the distinction modern books do.

We of course wanted to see it all. Lee said there was a CIA presence in Merida and we would be able to become informants in that area, go to school perhaps in Merida or even in Mexico city -- time would tell...

As I have said, we planned to make a trek through the whole area. I have given you quotes from George Demohremschildt. There are many pyramids...And Chichen-Iza was in the news in 1963...

We were also interested in Cozumel which Barb calls changing the story. She does not seem to understand that we intended to explore all we could. Below is an example of the area we were interested in:

     

Playa del Carmen owes its growing popularity to the nearby resort town of Cancún, just 40 miles to the north, and Cozumel Island, just 12 miles to the east....

Cozumel, called Ah Cuzamil Petén, meaning "island of the swallows," by the Mayans, was a sacred site and home to Ix-Chel, the goddess of fertility and wife of Itzámna, the god of the sun. Young women across the Mayan empire, from present-day Yucatán, Honduras, Belize, and beyond, journeyed to Cozumel on a sacred pilgrimage to pay homage to Ix-Chel and pray for fertility and healthy childbirth.

Meanwhile, on a sheltered sandbar known to the Mayans as "Kankun," the temples of El Rey were constructed as a ceremonial site and resting place for the society's nobles. The site is adjacent to a golf course and across the highway from what is now the Hilton Hotel, making it a popular destination for visitors to Cancún who want to experience the Mayan ruins but are not able to get to the more major sites in the region, such as Tulum, Cobá, or Chichén Itzá

Kankun, which means "nest of snakes," did not have many other sacred sites since it was so narrow and did not have good access to the mainland, though the ocean breezes and proximity to various shallow lagoons did make it a nice place to live for the natives who fished along its shores and harvested food from the mangroves.

JIM, THIS WAS THE VILLAGE THAT WE WERE INTERESTED IN.

"CANCUN" ITSELF ALSO MEANS 'NEST OF SNAKES" AND WAS USED TO DESCRIBE THE CITY.

TO CONTINUE:

John L. Stephens and Frederick Catherwood passed through the Riviera Maya in 1842 as part of their expedition to the Mayan ruins, which was documented in their excellent book, Incidents of Travel in Yucatán.

BUT WE WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO REACH THIS VLLAGE FROM CHICHEN ITZA? AND WHY IS THE CITY CANCUN CALLED CANCUN, BUT THAT THE AREA WAS DEDICATED TO KANKUN?

Playa del Carmen and the surrounding area kept a low profile for the rest of the 1800s. In 1902 the region was finally granted status as a territory of the country of Mexico, and it was named after Gen. Andreas Quintana Roo, of the Mexican army.

Cozumel was used as a base by the U.S. Navy during World War II and was then abandoned again ...

The single most important factor in the development of the region came in 1967, when the Bank of Mexico and the country's tourism development commission identified Cancún as the location for one of its mega-development projects (along with Ixtapa, Los Cabos, Loreto, and Huatulco). In the original government documents, the area was called "Kan Kun," which quickly morphed into the more Spanish "Can Cun," and then eventually shortened to just "Cancún."

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=377444323852

NOW, BARB CAN SPLIT HAIRS ALL SHE WANTS TO, BUT SHE OBVIOUSLY HASN’T SEEN THIS MORE COMPLETE HISTORY OF THE AREA..... I EXPLAINED THAT WE WERE INTERESTED IN THE VILLAGE OF KANKUN, THAT WE INTENDED TO VISIT CHICHEN-IZA, AND HOPED TO MARRY AND STAY AT A FINE HOTEL (MAYBE A JOKE OF LEE'S) IN THE AREA. MERIDA WAS ALSO MENTIONED.

THAT IS A HECK OF A LOT OF TERRITORY, BUT WE WERE PLANNING A TERRIFIC JOURNEY. WE BELIEVED NEAR THE END WE WOULD HAVE TO HIDE OUT IN THE CAYMAN ISLANDS, OR MAYBE EVEN THE CANARY ISLANDS, UNTIL LEE COULD WORK OUT HOW TO GET US INTO UNIVERSITIES AS STUDENTS WITH DR. SHERMAN'S HELP.

BUT UP TO THE LAST MINUTE, WE STILL HAD HOPES OF GOING THROUGH QUINTANA ROO AND SEEING SUCH VILLAGES AS KANKUN (WHICH WE READ ABOUT IN A JOURNAL) AND TO CLIMB CHICHEN ITZA AND MANY OTHER TEMPLE MOUNDS.

THEY HAVE TO MAKE IT ALL AS SET IN STONE. WHAT WAS 'SET IN STONE' WAS THAT, IF LEE MADE IT TO THE YUCATAN, I WOULD MEET HIM HERE. THE REST WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOUR OF THE AREA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE GONE INTO HIDING FOR A YEAR.

HERE IS THE BOOK THAT WAS FEATURED IN TULANE'S LIBRARY LATE SUMMER 1963:

Stephens, John Lloyd. Incidents of Travel in Yucatan. (two volumes, 1843) popularized Chichen Itza. Reissue, NY: Dover, 1963. ISBN 9780486209272

Incidents of Travel in Yucatan, Vol. 1 by John Lloyd Stephens PUBLICATION JUNE, 1963

---------------------------

   

----------------------------

I admit that our adventure sounds far out, but I was making plans with a man who penetrated the iron curtain when he was still 19 years old -- and anyone who personally knows me understands that, though young then, it is in conformity with a love for adventure and archaeology that eventually ended with a degree in same...it was a grand escape plan and I am very sorry it didn't happen.

See the following, by the way...about my running archaeological digs myself...Here is one from 1998, before all such stopped after I was injured in Dallas...I was using the name "AVARY BAKER" while living in Louisiana teaching at University of LA at Lafayette.... because I was afraid to use the name "JUDYTH".

I had to register as Judyth Vary Baker due to regulations, but everywhere it said 'AVARY BAKER" (ANNE IS MY MIDDLE NAME, VARY THE DREADED MAIDEN NAME I WISHED TO HIDE), therefore, 'Avary', which was sometimes misspelled by my students as "Avery" of course...Now I made this 'name change' in 1996, when I moved there, well before speaking out about Lee Oswald. And people should ask, why did I use a name that I'd never used before, when moving to Louisiana? Which was because I had reason to be afraid.

I taught English composition to freshmen and sophs, drama and poetry, and some continuing education classes, such as his one...All of that vanished after speaking out, and my dissertation was not allowed to be read. Nor was I allowed to present papers at conferences in the university's name anymore. I was removed as editor of The Southwestern Review and a woman called Jessica replaced me.

In the end, I lost my doctorate, which I thought was unassailable as I had a 3.9 and passed all comps and orals and my second language...But they got me. They wrecked my career.

Here in "The Times" you can see that I used "Avery" on July 25, 1998, 5 months before I decided to speak out.

Note that it says the dig would resume in November. But my daughter was getting married, and I had to put it off. The day after she left for her honeymoon, I saw the film "JFK". I had to speak out after finally seeing what a mess everything was, how much they had messed, how much had been buried in lies.

And I was scared so much, my hands shook as I got out the evidence and laid it out on the bed, wondering if I could find any witnesses to substantiate my statements, wondering how many false documents would hide the real Lee, who had actually tried to save Kennedy.

--------------------------

Another claim that she made that he could not believe was the

story of them meeting for a rendevous at a hotel in the middle

of the jungle in Mexico in the resort of Cancun, which he found

incredible, especially since Cancun did not exist at the time. As

Judyth has explained in post #665 on page 45, the hotel was not

situated in the city of Cancun but in the village called Kan Kun,

where it has existed since the 1930s. Lifton made a mistake

over the phone, because they are both pronounced the same.

HE ONLY TELLS YOU TO FOCUS ON "CANCUN" AS HE HEARD IT

OVER THE PHONE. I WAS CRUCIFIED OVER THAT ISSUE UNTIL

DEB BERT AND OTHERS NOTED THAT MAYALAND WAS BUILT

RIGHT THERE AT CHICHEN-IZA, WHERE I SAID LEE AND I

WOULD MEET.  LOOK AT A MAP AND POINT YOUR FINGER

HERE -- THE OLD MAPS WE LOOKED AT SAID "KANKUN",

THE NEW ONES SAY THE CITY "CANCUN". And she's right!

Just a little geographic orientation regarding Cancun ...kan-kun ... and the Mayaland hotel. The above reads as if the Mayaland is in close proximity to Quintana Roo where Cancun is located. It is not. Chichen Itza and the Mayaland hotel are not in Cancun, or Kan-kun ... nowhere near.

Chichen Itza and the Mayaland Hotel are located in the middle of the jungle in the state of Yucatan.

Cancun is located in the state of Quintana Roo. Quintana Roo did not become a state until 1974, but it was an officially named territory as of 1902.

Who cares about Quintana Roo? Judyth, who wrote:

I began to fantasize about my hoped-for escape to Quintana Roo.

In my dreams, I climbed Mayan pyramids with hinds´ feet in high places,

Lee laughing by my side, the wind blowing our hair awry, and colorful

birds flying in great processioned wheels around us, their cries of joy

mingled with ours. I would feel Lee´s touch, that certain way he had of

tracing just so across my hip, and I would wake smiling -- to a void.

Martin Shackelford posted the above in June 2004, noting:

Here is the reference from the original manuscript from 1998--BEFORE the

agent began fooling with it:

No Mayaland hotel or Chichen Itza in Quintana Roo.

I posted this in that same 2004 thread:

"State of Quintana Roo

Quintana Roo's

Coat of Arms

In this day and age, the state of Quintana Roo, home to Cancun, is

synonymous with tourism. It is impossible to believe that just 40

years ago Quintana Roo was "the most savage and wild coast of the

American continent." It was a territory with no local government and

no roads, accessible only by sea or on foot."

http://www.akumalrental.com/about_akumal/quin_roo.html

I just tried the link at it no longer goes anywhere.

It is an 111 mile, 2-1/2 to 3 hr drive from Cancun to Chitzen Itza/Mayaland *today* on the highway. There were no roads in 1963 as noted in the cite above. People going to the Mayaland Hotel used to be taken from where they got off their ship in the little port of Progress, through the jungle, to the Mayaland.

Here is a map that shows where all of these places are:

http://www.mayaland.com/History.php

This is the map the Mayaland Hotel has on its site. One can also read their history on this site as well.

When the Cancun thing became an issue, and the "kan-kun" explanation did not fly, their intended destination became, Tulum, Merida, Chichen Itza ... and somewhere down the line, even Cozumel and the Cayman Islands (where Judyth said Oswald had sent money ahead for them) ... they all became,, in turn, the correct place.

The story about the laxatives strikes me as fascinating

on several counts, because with her knowledge about

medicine and physiology--wanting to have Lee out of

the picture on the day of the assassination but without

raising alarm among his associates--she came up with

a very practical and easily implemented solution to the

dilemma: create the simulation of a physical illness.

One has to wonder why it didn't occur to her that LHO didn't need to "similate illness" by actually giving himself diarrhea.

No potty police.

And the bottom line of all this laxative business is that, by Judyth's own account, she knew that shots were going to be fired at JFK in Dallas on November 22nd.

She did nothing. Not even an anonymous phone call to the police, the FBI or the Secret Service.

And a quick question ... does Judyth still claim to have been at the leafletting in New Orleans? There were claims about the dress one of the women were wearing, then it became a different woman, then it was found that the women were identified by someone who worked in the building. But since Johann Rush, the cameraman who actually filmed the incident for the news came forward and refuted her details about what people were wearing, the kind of TV camera used, etc ... does she still say she was there?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

[Bernice Moore]

Kathy;

here are two links, one to Allan Grant of Life magazine...his photographs of Marina and...family and anoth

er to his story of finding them the weekend of the assassination, when she they were interviewed by authorities, in the hotel, there are a few other hotel photos with Robert in them, which i do not see in this link but if followed they will probably be found, i post what i have of robert in thehOTEL ROOM, YOU WILL SEE I BELIEVE THE RESEMBLANCE WITH HIS BROTHER LEE.that's robert at the table.....PLEASE excuse the caps...thanks...b

http://www.allangrant.com/newsevents7.htm

story http://www.allangrant.com/oswaldstory.htm.

.

Thanks, Bernice. I am using a relatively new computer, but I seem to have lost a lot of photos from my old drive. I am trying to find the picture of Robert, Lee and John Pic as children. Lee is in the middle, the real Lee.

Yes, there is some resemblance to LHO. But they're all so dorky looking. quote ''Where do they get these people? I take it you don't believe in John Armstrong's work?''Kathy C

wherever did you get the thought that I

don't believe in Armstrongs work? I said nothing to even

indicate such..Do not assume, anything about what I nor anyone may or may not believe,

each to their own, and none others should or should not assume to say anything pertaining to their beliefs..

AND AFTER BEING TOGETHER AT RICH'S FOR YEARS AS WELL AS NOW HERE FOR SOME TIME, YOU MUST HAVE MISSED MANY A THREAD IN THE PAST...sorry caps...fingers slipped again....txs..

perhaps this comp...contains what you are looking for.wrong photo replaced..i hope this is correct....b

Edited March 29, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Barb Junkkarinen]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO BARB JUNKKARENIN

Back in 1963, there was no Cancun, as Barb and Rottweilers have made clear over and over for years, but I always meant "KanKun", which everybody then wrote as "Cancun", which McAdams & clan have driven into the ground -- that this was an anachronism.

And on this single word hangs their entire claim, ignoring witnesses alive and dead--

Judyth used the "C" word herself in response to Mary Ferrell in an email in Oct 2000. This was a couple of months before

David Lifton posted that Cancun did not yet exist in 1963. It wasn't until David posted that information that "Cancun" became an issue. Judyth had used the "C" word in her phone conversation with Lifton months before ... when he later posted that there was no Cancun in 1963, the first response was that she just had not mentioned to him that it was spelled "kan-kun" and since they were on the phone, he had just assumed she meant the city/resort Cancun. Judyth was not on the phone with Mary Ferrell, below ...

Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:04:36 -0400 (EDT)

From: ElectLad...@aol.com

Subject: Re: Your list

To: maryf...@swbell.net

X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 120

In a message dated 10/09/2000 9:45:20 PM Central Daylight Time,

>maryf...@swbell.net writes:

> Rorke and Sullivan disappeared

> 9/24/63. Last seen in Cozumel, Mexico. Sullivan's daughter, Sherry

> Sullivan is a friend.

OH!!!!!! Rorke originally was supposed to fly ME from Eglin Air Force

base to Cancun!!!!!!!

[Kathleen Collins]

Kathy;

here are two links, one to Allan Grant of Life magazine...his photographs of Marina and...family and anoth

er to his story of finding them the weekend of the assassination, when she they were interviewed by authorities, in the hotel, there are a few other hotel photos with Robert in them, which i do not see in this link but if followed they will probably be found, i post what i have of robert in thehOTEL ROOM, YOU WILL SEE I BELIEVE THE RESEMBLANCE WITH HIS BROTHER LEE.that's robert at the table.....PLEASE excuse the caps...thanks...b

http://www.allangrant.com/newsevents7.htm

story http://www.allangrant.com/oswaldstory.htm.

.

Thanks, Bernice. I am using a relatively new computer, but I seem to have lost a lot of photos from my old drive. I am trying to find the picture of Robert, Lee and John Pic as children. Lee is in the middle, the real Lee.

Yes, there is some resemblance to LHO. But they're all so dorky looking. quote ''Where do they get these people? I take it you don't believe in John Armstrong's work?''Kathy C

wherever did you get the thought that I

don't believe in Armstrongs work? I said nothing to even

indicate such..Do not assume, anything about what I nor anyone may or may not believe,

each to their own, and none others should or should not assume to say anything pertaining to their beliefs..

AND AFTER BEING TOGETHER AT RICH'S FOR YEARS AS WELL AS NOW HERE FOR SOME TIME, YOU MUST HAVE MISSED MANY A THREAD IN THE PAST...sorry caps...fingers slipped again....txs..

perhaps this comp...contains what you are looking for.wrong photo replaced..i hope this is correct....b

Yes, this is the picture. Supposedly Robert's on the right and Lee is in the middle. This, in my opinion, is the real Lee, not the one shot by Ruby. I don't see a tremendous resemblance between them.

I found the picture in my computer a little while ago. I didn't know it was posted. Thank you. I was finding it hard to attach it to the site here. Anyway, don't be angry about me asking you if you followed the Harvey/Lee scenario. I do, pretty much. I wish John Armstrong would find Lee, the survivor (as far as we know). He's got the money and the time.

Kathy C

[Pamela Brown]

The one thing the "Cancun" issue does represent is an indication that Lifton was lying in wait for Judyth and thought he had something with which to discredit her. Whether "Cancun" existed as "Kankun" at that time, or whether LHO was speaking in irony, or whether there may have been some other reasonable explanation are not nearly as significant as the "process" that was taking place.

Lifton, as a researcher, decided that he had all the answers and that he could hold Judyth accountable to fit into whatever square hole he thought appropriate. Of course, this backfired, and everyone learned of Lifton's agenda.

Ironically, nobody will ever know what took place, as nothing ever came of it. Nobody went anywhere. Therefore, in the realm of understanding Judyth's statements, "Cancun" ought to remain toward the bottom of the list, not dragged out repeatedly as though there were something new to be gleaned.

But then, that's not Barb's way, is it? :-0

[Barb Junkkarinen]

The one thing the "Cancun" issue does represent is an indication that Lifton was lying in wait for Judyth and thought he had something with which to discredit her. Whether "Cancun" existed as "Kankun" at that time, or whether LHO was speaking in irony, or whether there may have been some other reasonable explanation are not nearly as significant as the "process" that was taking place.

Lifton, as a researcher, decided that he had all the answers and that he could hold Judyth accountable to fit into whatever square hole he thought appropriate. Of course, this backfired, and everyone learned of Lifton's agenda.

Ironically, nobody will ever know what took place, as nothing ever came of it. Nobody went anywhere. Therefore, in the realm of understanding Judyth's statements, "Cancun" ought to remain toward the bottom of the list, not dragged out repeatedly as though there were something new to be gleaned.

But then, that's not Barb's way, is it? :-0

Barb isn't the one who raised the Cancun issue here. Fetzer did in his post #703. :-)

I do agree it is a quite dead issue ... but the explanations just keep coming.

[Jack White]

It is unfair to say Lifton "was lying in wait". As I understand it, he

has a tape of the entire conversation, on which the interview can

be judged.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

http://www.cancun.bz/cancun_info/cancun_history.php

Cancun City History

Four decades ago, Cancun was a deserted island and few even knew of its existence. Located in a nearly forgotten region of the Caribbean, it consisted of a series of sand dunes in the shape of a number “7" –some parts of which were only 20 meters (66 ft) wide– separated from the mainland by two narrow canals that opened out on to a huge lagoon system.

The coast was comprised of marshes, mangroves, virgin jungle and unexplored beaches. Even its name was not clear: some maps called it “Kankun” (a single word written with the two “k’s”), which means “pot of snakes” or “nest of snakes” in Maya language.

However, in the first Infratur documents (a government agency existing prior to the creation of Fonatur), it is written as two words, “Kan Kun,” and occasionally, “Can Cun” (in its Spanish form). The current name of “Cancun” is a natural phonetic development that facilitates pronunciation... or maybe it developed by mere chance.

Thanks for posting this link and info from it, Linda. Several sites were posted in the early 2000's when this became an issue ... including this one, which has since been updated. No one disputes the area that is now Cancun was once called/referenced as kan-kun or kankun. That can be seen on ancient maps from way back ... Deb Bert found one from the 1700s, 1731 if I recall correctly.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

It is unfair to say Lifton "was lying in wait". As I understand it, he

has a tape of the entire conversation, on which the interview can

be judged.

Yes, he does, Jack. And he has offered for years to have that audio put onto the net where all can hear it for themselves ... all he asks is a signed release from Judyth allowing him to do so. He is still willing ... and waiting ... to do that.

Perhaps Jim will work with Judyth on getting that signed release to David. Then all can hear for themselves. Veddy simple, veddy easy.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

.

[Jack White]

...only $19.95

[David Lifton]

The one thing the "Cancun" issue does represent is an indication that Lifton was lying in wait for Judyth and thought he had something with which to discredit her. Whether "Cancun" existed as "Kankun" at that time, or whether LHO was speaking in irony, or whether there may have been some other reasonable explanation are not nearly as significant as the "process" that was taking place.

Lifton, as a researcher, decided that he had all the answers and that he could hold Judyth accountable to fit into whatever square hole he thought appropriate. Of course, this backfired, and everyone learned of Lifton's agenda.

Ironically, nobody will ever know what took place, as nothing ever came of it. Nobody went anywhere. Therefore, in the realm of understanding Judyth's statements, "Cancun" ought to remain toward the bottom of the list, not dragged out repeatedly as though there were something new to be gleaned.

But then, that's not Barb's way, is it? :-0

Pamela,

Insofar as Barb J. is concerned, Cancun ought to be at the top of the list, when it comes to the matter of judging Judyth's credibility, because--as the saying goes, "The Devil is in the details," and that is the case here. A similar matter came up when you went on the Internet and were glibly posting about having seen the Zapruder film at a New York City theater in the fall of 1964. Unfortunately (for you), that is your "Cancun."

As to your accusations about me, your post is completely false, and reflects a warped and slanted approach to the true facts, and my reason for telephoning Judyth on March 4, 2000.

I was not "lying in wait"--I never heard of Judyth until March, 2000. As presented to me by Robert Chapman (who had discussed the matter in depth with Mary Ferrell), the belief was (at that time) that here was someone who, incredibly, all the previous official investigation had somehow missed, and who had actually known Oswald. Let me assure you: I was so pleased to have the opportunity to speak with her--and perhaps have a real "scoop." So that was my attitude when I called her in March, 2000.

But unfortunately, it didn't work out that way--at all. Instead, over the course of the ensuing hour or more, it became rather evident that Judyth was someone who was not credible. She sounded neurotic and her whole manner was excessively dramatic and theatrical. She was sometimes hysterical, and her narrative was interspersed, as I recall, with fits of crying. As the telephone call progressed, and some of my questioning grew more pointed, I suspected she had studied the books (Mailer, McMillan) and research materials (Mary Ferrell's chronologies) and had created a story about herself and Oswald, one in which she systematically was attempting to insert herself into the historical record. Unfortunately, in describing what he was wearing the day she met him (4/26/63), she had the facts all wrong--describing him as dressed in workman's clothing, when he was in fact dressed in a suit and tie.

As to Cancun: I had no idea of the significance of her reference to Cancun and what she said on that score would never have meant a thing to me had the telephone call not been taped, and reviewed some days or weeks later by Robert Chapman. It wasn't until I shared a tape of the conversation with Robert Chapman that he spotted the significance of her Cancun statement. Because of his art research, Robert knew the area --and its history--and so he immediately recognized she had made a major gaffe: invoking the name of a place which did not exist, as such, at the time.

This is not all that dissimilar from you maintaining, with a straight face, that you saw the Zapruder film at a New York City theater in the fall of 1964, which is not possibly true, yet you expect to get away with that sort of nonsense, and maintain your credibility.

But back to Judyth, and my phone call of March, 2004, her mention of Cancun, and Robert Chapman's amazement at the statement because he knew the history of the area well, and knew that Cancun--as a resort--did not exist at the time, yet she not only mentioned it to me in that phone call, she had statements about meeting Lee in "a fine hotel in Cancun" in her manuscript.

When all this became known, Judyth apparently tried to backtrack. In one of her explanations (she always has "explanations" for the many inconsistencies and implausibilities in her account) she said that it was all the result of a third party having inserted information into her manuscript. Of course, that still left the matter of what she said in conversation with me. When she realized there was a taped record, along came a new excuse--the one stating that she was referring to the prior name of that area, or a village there.

Unfortunately, there was more than just a taped record. It not only was in her manuscript, there was an email record as well. In October 2000, she had already stated--in a long email to Mary Ferrell--that a pilot was supposed to fly her from Elgin AFB to Cancun. (Yes, she actually wrote "Cancun" and wrote that to Mary Ferrell).

All things considered, your accusations against me are without merit. Yes, I did have an "agenda" when I called Judyth on March 4, 2000, but it was the completely innocent agenda of any investigative writer. Because of my friendship with Robert Chapman and Mary Ferrell, I genuinely believed I was being afforded an opportunity to be one of the first to hear an account from someone who knew Oswald intimately, someone who had actually been a girlfriend. I had no idea on March 4, 2000, when I made the call, that I was about to engage in a conversation with a troubled woman who was suffering from the psychological malady called "pseudologia fantastica" (or "mythomania"). But this became evident as the phone call unfolded--and in the weeks and months (and even years) that followed.

Again, your accusations against me are without merit. In fact, they are as silly as your false claims that you saw the Zapruder film exhibited in a New York City theater in the fall of 1964.

On a personal note, and one unrelated to the matter of Judyth: if you want to know when it became evident to me that your research on the windshield could be safely set aside, and that Doug Weldon had in fact nailed down the facts in that area--the tipping point came with your false accusations against me regarding Judyth.

I never meant Judyth any harm. The phone call was placed in a state of innocence. She came off as a flaming neurotic--and I have a taped record to prove it. As an author who respects genuine data, I have no intention of getting further involved with a woman who, I am convinced, is attempting to market a counterfeit version of history.

DSL

3/29/10; 6:45 PM

Los Angeles, CA

[Mike Williams]

On a personal note, and one unrelated to the matter of Judyth: if you want to know when it became evident to me that your research on the windshield could be safely set aside, and that Doug Weldon had in fact nailed down the facts in that area--the tipping point came with your false accusations against me regarding Judyth.

Does this sound like " an author who respects genuine data"?

I should think the data would stand for itself regardless of personal animosity.

[Dean Hagerman]

Does this sound like " an author who respects genuine data"?

It sure sounds like it to me, comparing Lifton's research to Pamela's research is like comparing a Porsche to a Yugo