Review of Judyth Vary Baker Thread

[Greg Burnham]

Thanks Dean--and good luck!

[John Dolva]

The first comment is related to the Swedish person. I don't see the relevance.

I'm suggesting she put that bit in to bolster her case believing it is relevant. The belief it is indicates not only a misconception of the asylum process and what is and what is not relevant.

If what she says is true about this bogeyman threatening poor lil' US then she could not think for herself. Since the revolution the number of countries that go along with the US perception of Cuba diminishes. I don't think Baron Von Munchausen could come up with a more epic drama, which in the end strikes me as somewhat irrelevant anyway.

Much of the rest of the world has not gone through the brainwashing that USofA citizens have re capitalism-socialism. I can understand the antipathy. JVB comes off as an opportunist.

[Michael Hogan]

.....It seems to me that the burden of proof is on those who are claiming she is a fraud (guilty of prevarication).

Greg, have you read her book Lee Harvey Oswald?

[Dean Hartwell]

The first comment is related to the Swedish person. I don't see the relevance.

I'm suggesting she put that bit in to bolster her case believing it is relevant. The belief it is indicates not only a misconception of the asylum process and what is and what is not relevant.

If what she says is true about this bogeyman threatening poor lil' US then she could not think for herself. Since the revolution the number of countries that go along with the US perception of Cuba diminishes. I don't think Baron Von Munchausen could come up with a more epic drama, which in the end strikes me as somewhat irrelevant anyway.

Much of the rest of the world has not gone through the brainwashing that USofA citizens have re capitalism-socialism. I can understand the antipathy. JVB comes off as an opportunist.

John,

Post #91 was my own thoughts. Also my thoughts - I do not see any credibility issue if she said she was a socialist in contemporary Sweden and that over forty years ago that she saw Castro as an imminent threat the U.S. I am the one who will remove this idea from the next update. However, your thoughts will remain on the posts.

Dean

[Barb Junkkarinen]

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION

UPDATED

(4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro.

Former University of Florida students such as Dr. Kathy Santi and two of her former high school classmates have verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and in the radiation section of the engineering labs a UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses.

Please scan and post the verification from all three.

Thanks,

Barb :-)

Sure, Barb. Just as soon as you can verify these claims that you have made:

Holding evidence hostage, counselor? It is for the plaintiff to prove her case. Withholding evidence is not in her best interests, now is it?

As for what I have said, given what you have attributed to me below, perhaps you should stick to quotes. :-)

Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB.

Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness.

Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements.

My comments appear in full in post 45 on page 3.

Re Debra Conway, who taped the 2000 interview of Anna Lewis in the presence of others, including Judyth, I said:

"And I cannot find the exact quote, but Debra has commented that Anna Lewis told her something along the lines of her not remembering Judyth as the girl she remembered, that she wasn't sure/didn't think this (Judyth) was the woman she knew. Will continue looking for that quote."

I have not found it, nor have I had much time to look for it as I was out of town for a long weekend. This has nothing to do with the unsubstantiated claims you made above about Judyth having 3 former UF students who have verified Judyth being in pre-med classes and having been seen in the radiation section at the university.

I have never claimed that Judyth sent any transcript of one witness to another witness.

Here again, is what I actually said:

"Judyth found and spoke to Anna Lewis previously, before this trip to NO. Even Martin Shackelford acknowledged that. I find that troubling for a couple of reasons, not the least of which being how Judyth went about interviewing McGehee ... early on, at least according to a "highlights" transcript that Judyth emailed around, saying, when he spoke about seeing a big black cadillac pull out down the street just after Oswald left his barbershop, "I suggested that perhaps others had tried to influence him about the incident, prompting a false memory, but he said no, he had not been influenced by anyone." Extremely inappropriate. And, as far as we know, there is no actual transcript of her interview with McGehee. If there is, that would be important to see."

Nor did I say I believe Judyth may have"encouraged" Anna Lewis ... I did say I found it troubling that Judyth had found and spoken to Lewis alone before the trip to NO with the group to interview Lewis ... and I explained why I find it troubling, saying, in addition to the above:

"Anna Lewis, according to the old team Judyth, acknowledged that Anna Lewis refused to go on camera and repeat her story for the TMWKK "Love Affair" segment. And where did Anna Lewis get this thing about Oswald firing a warning shot? That came from Judyth's early story/draft. Just how exposed to Judyth's story was she before this interview? Poor thing looked scared to death, it was like she was going by a script .... and forgetting and getting lost some times, mouthing things to someone and getting some prompts.

Sounds like Stephen has a copy of the same document I do. Judyth's interview technique with McGehee was wholly inappropriate based on her partial transcript she sent around. Anna Lewis's script like telling, forgetting and getting lost, looking (and sometimes mouthing) to someone for prompts .... none of that bolsters confidence in a witness. Judyth having found and talked to this "witness" first is troubling .... and then in this taped statement said witness mentions Oswald firing a warning shot .... which is straight out of an early draft of Judyth's and rather sets off the uh-oh alarms even louder. Lewis says she met Oswald in April 1962 ... then says sometime between January and April 1962. Aside from having the year wrong, her memory doesn't seem that good on this.

I do not know Anna Lewis, and I in no way accuse her of anything or impugn her character, but there is another troubling aspect that was revealed over the course of many posts discussed on the mod group years ago. And that is an allegation that Anna Lewis was promised compensation. I understand Ms Lewis is of meager means, and sadly, caring for a severely ill/disabled child ... who is now an adult. I don't recall who first made the allegation, but it was hotly and loudly denied. Then a member of then team Judyth admitted that there was talk of trying to help her out, but that that came about only after her interview had been taped. I can't make any judgment, or even an opinion on that, other than to say that it is one more thing that feels very uncomfortable about this woman's statement overall."

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the claim you posted that Judyth has 3 former UF students who have "verified" she was in pre-med classes and was in/had access to the radiation section of the engineering labs.

The only "claim" I made was about a comment Debra made ... I explained I have no quote and cannot recall exactly what she said.

I find myself agreeing with Dean Hagerman and some others. Based on what you have done so far in this thread, what could have been productive, is nothing but a farce in your hands. And your response to me points that out rather glaringly. If Judyth had documents from 3 students verifying the things she claims ... you would have posted them straight away.

You are playing a game. Most of us are not interested in any game, Mr. Hartwell, we are interested in the truth. And on the matter of the claims of Judyth Vary Baker, it is long overdue.

[Dean Hartwell]

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION

UPDATED

This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination:

(1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there.

On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites.

Cross-examination: None to date

(2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald.

On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee.

Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video.

Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements.

JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping.

Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem.

JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was.

Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness.

Re-direct: JVB states the following:

Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition.

Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities.

The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family.

Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald.

(3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair.

On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video.

Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB.

JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans.

In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald.

Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee.

Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker.

Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged.

(4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro.

On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student.

Cross-examination: See above.

JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.)

Former University of Florida student Dr. Kathy Santi has verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and two of her former classmates have verified her presence in the radiaition section of the engineering labs at UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses. (Note minor edition from last update).

[Note: Barb has asked for verification of their statements scanned and posted here. However, JVB has pointed out that her presence in the radiation section is not something that was recorded. She has also promised to keep the lives of the individuals private.]

Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record

Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story...

On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit.

Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together.

JVB responds: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair.

The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission

Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider.

Comments on credibility (based on one of the four assertions):

Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Dean Hartwell

[Dean Hartwell]

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION

UPDATED

(4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro.

Former University of Florida students such as Dr. Kathy Santi and two of her former high school classmates have verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and in the radiation section of the engineering labs a UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses.

Please scan and post the verification from all three.

Thanks,

Barb :-)

Sure, Barb. Just as soon as you can verify these claims that you have made:

Holding evidence hostage, counselor? It is for the plaintiff to prove her case. Withholding evidence is not in her best interests, now is it?

As for what I have said, given what you have attributed to me below, perhaps you should stick to quotes. :-)

Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB.

Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness.

Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements.

My comments appear in full in post 45 on page 3.

Re Debra Conway, who taped the 2000 interview of Anna Lewis in the presence of others, including Judyth, I said:

"And I cannot find the exact quote, but Debra has commented that Anna Lewis told her something along the lines of her not remembering Judyth as the girl she remembered, that she wasn't sure/didn't think this (Judyth) was the woman she knew. Will continue looking for that quote."

I have not found it, nor have I had much time to look for it as I was out of town for a long weekend. This has nothing to do with the unsubstantiated claims you made above about Judyth having 3 former UF students who have verified Judyth being in pre-med classes and having been seen in the radiation section at the university.

I have never claimed that Judyth sent any transcript of one witness to another witness.

Here again, is what I actually said:

"Judyth found and spoke to Anna Lewis previously, before this trip to NO. Even Martin Shackelford acknowledged that. I find that troubling for a couple of reasons, not the least of which being how Judyth went about interviewing McGehee ... early on, at least according to a "highlights" transcript that Judyth emailed around, saying, when he spoke about seeing a big black cadillac pull out down the street just after Oswald left his barbershop, "I suggested that perhaps others had tried to influence him about the incident, prompting a false memory, but he said no, he had not been influenced by anyone." Extremely inappropriate. And, as far as we know, there is no actual transcript of her interview with McGehee. If there is, that would be important to see."

Nor did I say I believe Judyth may have"encouraged" Anna Lewis ... I did say I found it troubling that Judyth had found and spoken to Lewis alone before the trip to NO with the group to interview Lewis ... and I explained why I find it troubling, saying, in addition to the above:

"Anna Lewis, according to the old team Judyth, acknowledged that Anna Lewis refused to go on camera and repeat her story for the TMWKK "Love Affair" segment. And where did Anna Lewis get this thing about Oswald firing a warning shot? That came from Judyth's early story/draft. Just how exposed to Judyth's story was she before this interview? Poor thing looked scared to death, it was like she was going by a script .... and forgetting and getting lost some times, mouthing things to someone and getting some prompts.

Sounds like Stephen has a copy of the same document I do. Judyth's interview technique with McGehee was wholly inappropriate based on her partial transcript she sent around. Anna Lewis's script like telling, forgetting and getting lost, looking (and sometimes mouthing) to someone for prompts .... none of that bolsters confidence in a witness. Judyth having found and talked to this "witness" first is troubling .... and then in this taped statement said witness mentions Oswald firing a warning shot .... which is straight out of an early draft of Judyth's and rather sets off the uh-oh alarms even louder. Lewis says she met Oswald in April 1962 ... then says sometime between January and April 1962. Aside from having the year wrong, her memory doesn't seem that good on this.

I do not know Anna Lewis, and I in no way accuse her of anything or impugn her character, but there is another troubling aspect that was revealed over the course of many posts discussed on the mod group years ago. And that is an allegation that Anna Lewis was promised compensation. I understand Ms Lewis is of meager means, and sadly, caring for a severely ill/disabled child ... who is now an adult. I don't recall who first made the allegation, but it was hotly and loudly denied. Then a member of then team Judyth admitted that there was talk of trying to help her out, but that that came about only after her interview had been taped. I can't make any judgment, or even an opinion on that, other than to say that it is one more thing that feels very uncomfortable about this woman's statement overall."

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the claim you posted that Judyth has 3 former UF students who have "verified" she was in pre-med classes and was in/had access to the radiation section of the engineering labs.

The only "claim" I made was about a comment Debra made ... I explained I have no quote and cannot recall exactly what she said.

I find myself agreeing with Dean Hagerman and some others. Based on what you have done so far in this thread, what could have been productive, is nothing but a farce in your hands. And your response to me points that out rather glaringly. If Judyth had documents from 3 students verifying the things she claims ... you would have posted them straight away.

You are playing a game. Most of us are not interested in any game, Mr. Hartwell, we are interested in the truth. And on the matter of the claims of Judyth Vary Baker, it is long overdue.

Barb,

Tell you what. If you, Dean Hagerman and the unnamed people you are telling me about do not like the way I run this thread, you are free to go somewhere else.

Dean

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Barb,

Tell you what. If you, Dean Hagerman and the unnamed people you are telling me about do not like the way I run this thread, you are free to go somewhere else.

Dean

And that is precisely what I did until I got a note telling me that you had misrepresented what I had said in the post I replied to. :-)

You narrow allowable evidence to your 4 chosen assertions. Not all of her claims fit in that box. But all of her claims are stepping stones to her claimed adventures in New Orleans.

For instance, she claims that as a high school student, a group of military types had a night class created at the local junior college so she could learn Russian ... so she could read Russian cancer journals.

I posted documentation from 3 separate sources, including the college catalog, that shows the college already had a night Russian class for a year and a half before she claims one was created for her. That is posted in the other thread. I do not recall you even acknowledging it.

For instance, Judyth claims Oswald stole and gave her a green glass from a tea promotion ast Reily that summer, even going so far as to say it was one of the real reasons he was fired.

I posted a letter from Reily saying that they did have a green glass tea promotion once ... that is was a "one time promotion" in 1959-1960. Nada in the summer of 1963. It is posted in the other thread ... I don't recall you even acknowledging it.

For instance, Judyth claims scholarships, grants, and equipment given to her by the American Cancer Society that covered college in the Fall of 1961 through when she left the UF in 1963.

I posted a letter from the American Cancer Society saying they had done a thorough investigation and have no record of ANYthing being given to Judy Vary (save for a $250 science fair prize I told them about). That's posted in the other thread ... I don't recall you even acknowledging it.

For instance, Judyth claims scholarships, grants and funding from the National Science Foundation for the same period of time.

I posted the National Science Foundation's annual reports for years 1961, 1962 and 1963 ... they detail every penny given out to whom, for what project and where, There is no record of Judyth ever having received a dime. That is posted in the other thread, I don't recall you even acknowledging it.

Judyth went into great detail in her book about the first kiss she and LHO shared ... including some of the lyrics she claims ran through her head at the very moment it happened from Then He Kissed Me.

I posted documentation that the song was not written, recorded and released until 3 months after their alleged magic moment. I don't recall you even acknowledging it.

And more was posted in the thread as well ... I don't recall you even acknowledging any of it.

So much for your interest in getting to the bottom of things as regards Judyth's story ... let alone any quest for the truth.

The game you are playing does not interest me. But if you are going to attribute something to me in the future ... make it a quote.

[Jack White]

There is no evidence that Carlos Marcello "owned restaurants and lounges". According to Mary Ferrell

he owned a large (Chrysler?) auto dealership with several branches. Mary and her husband Buck were

acquainted with Marcello.

Jack

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION

UPDATED

This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination:

(1) JVB went to New Orleans during the time Lee Harvey Oswald is known to have been there.

On direct: the work time card mentioned on the main thread and shown on previously named web sites.

Cross-examination: None to date

(2) JVB met Lee Harvey Oswald.

On Direct: Anna Lewis' statements on a previously mentioned video on Google. She states that she and her husband David double-dated with JVB and Lee.

Cross-examination: Stephen says it would help to know more about what, if anything, anyone encouraged Anna to say before she talked on the video.

Barb adds that she believes JVB may have encouraged Anna before she made statements.

JVB responds: Debra Conway unexpectedly asked Lewis to discuss matters on videotape and that evidentiary matters were not discussed with her prior to the taping.

Stephen says Anna should also clarify why she gave a different story to Garrison than her husband regarding how she knew LHO, which may or may not be a problem.

JVB responds: Lewis agreed to taping on grounds it would be her only taping and that she told a representative of Garrison to leave her alone as she was about to have a baby and feared a miscarriage from stress. Husband David was willing to acknowledge contacts with Oswald but did not identify JVB as he did not know where she was.

Barb also states that she is trying to confirm a comment made by Debra Conway as to whether Anna Lewis originally recalled JVB. Barb also claims that JVB sent around a "transcript" of an interview with one witness to another witness.

Re-direct: JVB states the following:

Anna Lewis was not the only witness to verify that Baker and Oswald were intimate friends. William "Mac" McCullough is acknowledged to have been in New Orleans and working as a musician (and later, in other ways) for Carlos Marcello-owned restaurants and lounges. He is on audiotape as having seen Baker and Oswald together, but is consistently ignored. He decided to go on record despite warning Baker against speaking out at all because he had a heart condition.

Also ignored is the Charles Thomas family that has verified that their father/grandfather/uncle worked in clandestine matters and was engaged in activities that Baker described to them, proving she had been with Oswald and Thomas in New Orleans. Baker presented the family with irrefutable proof of having known Charles Thomas. The family lives in a private, hard-to-find location in Louisiana. Charles Thomas' granddaughter assisted Dr. John DeLane Williams in obtaining data on New Orleans for his statistical analysis of Baker and Oswald's activities.

The particulars Baker described were unique regarding Charles Thomas: his work in the 1950's as the Customs agent at the US-Canadian border in Buffalo, New York, at the time Oswald crossed the border there, his moving to Miami and working with Cubans and anti-Castro factions and with the Mafia there, his secrets of which he had been proud, the tattoos on his fingers, his German accent and silvery hair, and, of particular importance, his marriage to a Chitimacha native American Indian, and the fact that Thomas used the name "Arthur Young" in New Orleans --with which information Baker was eventually able to locate the Thomas family.

Thus, there are two living witnesses and the attestations of the Charles Thomas family supporting the fact of Baker's having known Oswald.

(3) JVB and Lee Harvey Oswald had an affair.

On direct: Comments made by Anna Lewis on this topic on the same video.

Cross-examination: See above, to which Jack adds that he believes several agencies and other parties watched LHO very closely in New Orleans and that none of the agencies has produced any report mentioning JVB.

JVB responds: A Department of Defense agent told her that he had looked in files of LHO and JVB and had seen pictures of JVB labeled “Marina Oswald.” The agent had seen a caption in both files noting that Marina was reportedly in Texas when the picture was taken of her in New Orleans.

In addition, Baker POSED as marina Oswald successfully because Marina and Baker had the same hair color and style, eye color, height and many facial resemblances. Marina Oswald was largely sequestered in a small part of New Orleans. The only time Marina Oswald visited the French Quarter in New Orleans, Oswald stayed home--she went, instead, with Ruth Paine, without Oswald.

Baker says Oswald refused to go because someone might have asked where "Marina" was in the presence of Marina. The incident of Oswald failing to accompany Marina and Ruth Paine to the French Quarter in September is described in the anti-Oswald book Marina and Lee.

Oswald only once did not tell marina Oswald the truth about where he worked---this sole time was when he worked with Baker at Reilly’s. Instead, he told Marina that he worked at a different coffee company (Leon Israel Coffee Company)--which McMillan, who wrote Marina and lee, called a "pointless lie." It was not: Oswald did not want Marina to see Baker.

Further, after he was fired from Reilly, Oswald still "went to work" every day and Marina was unaware, for weeks, that Oswald was no longer employed, which can be verified through a letter she wrote to Ruth Paine. There are many more such events which are ignored by the 'research community' indicating Oswald's and Baker's relationship existed. Of course, the statistical analysis indicates that there was a better than 98% chance that Baker and Oswald knew each other 'well' and a 1 in a million chance that their parallel work there was not deliberately pre-planned and arranged.

(4) JVB worked on a lab on a project to collect cancer cells and assess their potency to use to kill Fidel Castro.

On direct: Newspaper clippings posted show her interest in work in a science-related field and her excellence as science student.

Cross-examination: See above.

JVB responds: In addition, her ongoing work after high school is indicated as well (for example, an abstract exists showing she was working with deadly melanoma cancer at St. Francis College after high school.)

Former University of Florida students such as Dr. Kathy Santi and two of her former high school classmates have verified Baker's presence in pre-med courses and in the radiation section of the engineering labs a UF even though her official records do not mention such activities or courses.

Baker was also documented working in a highly advanced chemical research lab in 1963, despite having no degree in chemistry and an official "D" in chemistry on her UF college record

Sources in dispute: LHO: The True Story...

On direct: JVB states the following: The book is unauthorized due to a contract dispute. She submitted corrections that were not made in the publishing of the book. Livingstone did not allow her to see his editing or final edit.

Cross-examination: Barb states the following: The book’s status does not negate everything in it. On page 171 JVB says that Kerry Thornley took a picture of her and LHO together.

JVB responds: Regarding the Thornley picture, Oswald never gave the photo to Baker. The photo was made only to assuage suspicions Thornley had that Baker and Oswald were having an affair.

The statement that she was in a picture with LHO at the Trade Mart was given as speculation by JVB to Livingstone because she did not have good enough photos to make a determination. Researcher Martin Shackelford and Baker thought that she might be in the Rush film. These speculations were given to the editor, Mr. Livingstone, who published them without permission

Evidence rule: Independent corroborating evidence is best. Jack says it is a second source with no stake in the matter (paraphrase). Further questioning made it clear that he believes self-serving interest rules out a witness; I say it should be a factor for finder-of-fact (you) to consider.

Comments on credibility (based on one of the four assertions):

John Dolver asks: "Judyth, when you went to spend some time in Sweden and go through the process of applying for asylum, part of your claim is that you are a socialist. Could you please take time to outline the argument you have for this, as well as state why you consider this a point of relevance. Further, how do you reconcile that with the proposed murder of the head of state of the sovereign nation of Cuba and performing this task with the Central Intelligence Agency of the sovereign nation the United States of America. Please."

JVB replies: "SHOW US THE QUOTATION. This was supposed to be private, personal information. Only the verdict, with some explanatory statements, was supposed to be released to the public. I insist on seeing a copy of the document. Scan it, please.

The events of 1963 involved missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads to my country, compliments of Castro. I was a 19-year-old American, in 1963, who had written President Kennedy and offered my services to my country."

Where it goes next: All members are free to respond with ideas on evidence that works for or against any of these assertions.

[Jack White]

JVB EVIDENCE AND CROSS-EXAMINATION

UPDATED

This is a work in progress that focuses on Judyth Vary Baker's four main assertions and their cross-examination:

WHY ONLY FOUR? THERE ARE DOZENS.

[Greg Burnham]

.....It seems to me that the burden of proof is on those who are claiming she is a fraud (guilty of prevarication).

Greg, have you read her book Lee Harvey Oswald?

No Mike, I haven't. I don't know if you recall (since it got buried in the enormity of the other thread), but I stopped researching her story completely about a year after I interviewed her. I concluded, based upon that interview, that:

1) I personally found her believable (although granted parts of her story were a strain, she herself was credible);

2) I couldn't find any motive for her to "make it all up" -- NONE -- and I still can't;

3) I had not the time, nor the interest, nor the funds, nor the necessary resources to pursue the details contained in 40 year old memories about an extra-marital affair concerning an individual that did NOT kill JFK--as told by someone who was 19 years old at the time who knew him nearly 40 years previous;

So, I haven't read or bought any books about her story. The main reason I haven't is because even if I assume everything she has said to date is 100% true, it bears only in the most minimal way upon the JFK assassination. For those who already know that LHO did not act alone (or perhaps did not act at all) it has NO value. We already find him to be "humanized" without her story. And for those who believe he is the lone nut--NOTHING will ever convince them that he isn't. --NOTHING WILL-- It is already OBVIOUS to those who aren't disingenuous. Those who deny the obvious will not be persuaded by the obscure...

Edited May 21, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Dean Hagerman]

I nominate this thread for "Worst thread of all time on any forum in the history of the internet"

[Michael Hogan]

There is no evidence that Carlos Marcello "owned restaurants and lounges". According to Mary Ferrell

he owned a large (Chrysler?) auto dealership with several branches. Mary and her husband Buck were

acquainted with Marcello.

In the footnotes to Chapter 13 of Dr Mary's Monkey, Ed Haslam states:

"Lee Oswald's family had been Mafia-connected since he was a child. Lee attended parties at Marcello's house,

and was remembered from those days by people that Judyth met. Lee also worked as an errand boy, running between

Marcello's clubs and restaurants." (DMM, page 307)

Jack,

This is actually one of the best "documented" books for the general public that I have ever read. It

breaks my heart to think where we might have gone on this thread if you had had a copy of it at hand.

You may now be starting to see why I kept encouraging you to read it. It is an excellent, very thorough,

meticulous and very detailed report of Ed Haslam's investigation. Perhaps this will give you an inkling of

why I have suggested in the past that you simply didn't know what you were talking about. You didn't.

Jim

[Jack White]

OUTSTANDING OBSERVATIONS, Monk!

Jack

.....It seems to me that the burden of proof is on those who are claiming she is a fraud (guilty of prevarication).

Greg, have you read her book Lee Harvey Oswald?

No Mike, I haven't. I don't know if you recall (since it got buried in the enormity of the other thread), but I stopped researching her story completely about a year after I interviewed her. I concluded, based upon that interview, that:

1) I personally found her believable (although granted parts of her story were a strain, she herself was credible);

2) I couldn't find any motive for her to "make it all up" -- NONE -- and I still can't;

3) I had not the time, nor the interest, nor the funds, nor the necessary resources to pursue the details contained in 40 year old memories about an extra-marital affair concerning an individual that did NOT kill JFK--as told by someone who was 19 years old at the time who knew him nearly 40 years previous;

So, I haven't read or bought any books about her story. The main reason I haven't is because even if I assume everything she has said to date is 100% true, it bears only in the most minimal way upon the JFK assassination. For those who already know that LHO did not act alone (or perhaps did not act at all) it has NO value. We already find him to be "humanized" without her story. And for those who believe he is the lone nut--NOTHING will ever convince them that he isn't. --NOTHING WILL-- It is already OBVIOUS to those who aren't disingenuous. Those who deny the obvious will not be persuaded by the obscure...

[Jack White]

Quoting Haslam quoting Baker is PROOF OF NOTHING! By proof I mean public records of such

businesses.

To open a business, one must file papers with the state and/or county (parish) stating the name of the

business and the owner and/or stockholders. I am sure this is a universal US law. This is known,

at least where I reside, as the DBA permit. DBA means DOING BUSINESS AS. When I opened my

own graphic arts business after having previously worked for employers, I was required to do two things.

I had to go to the courthouse and fill out papers and pay a fee to open my business. I was given

a certificate which I was to post at my workplace stating that the business was JACK WHITE DBA

JACK WHITE GRAPHIC ARTS. Then when we found it was advantageous to form a corporation

(for tax and other purposes), we had to make application to the Texas Secretary of State to become

a corporation. So JACK WHITE DBA JACK WHITE GRAPHIC ARTS became WHITE, PELOUBET AND WHITE,

INCORPORATED, DBA VJS COMPANIES.

I say all of this to denote that RECORDS EXIST of ANY COMPANY. JVB saying Marcello had clubs and

restaurants is meaningless. Proof would consist of records of such businesses at the parish courthouse

or the Louisiana Secretary of State office.

The latter is DOCUMENTED PROOF. The former is hearsay.

Jack

There is no evidence that Carlos Marcello "owned restaurants and lounges". According to Mary Ferrell

he owned a large (Chrysler?) auto dealership with several branches. Mary and her husband Buck were

acquainted with Marcello.

In the footnotes to Chapter 13 of Dr Mary's Monkey, Ed Haslam states:

"Lee Oswald's family had been Mafia-connected since he was a child. Lee attended parties at Marcello's house,

and was remembered from those days by people that Judyth met. Lee also worked as an errand boy, running between

Marcello's clubs and restaurants." (DMM, page 307)

Jack,

This is actually one of the best "documented" books for the general public that I have ever read. It

breaks my heart to think where we might have gone on this thread if you had had a copy of it at hand.

You may now be starting to see why I kept encouraging you to read it. It is an excellent, very thorough,

meticulous and very detailed report of Ed Haslam's investigation. Perhaps this will give you an inkling of

why I have suggested in the past that you simply didn't know what you were talking about. You didn't.

Jim