Fetzer takes ballistics 101!

[Mike Williams]

Of course, if you cant explain it and make if fit your theory, simply call it faked and let the conjecture parade begin. What amazes me the most about 47 years of research, and there seems to be multitudes of people that have no idea what an entry wound could look like.

There is no evidence what so ever of a shot from the front.

I have to ask Jim, do you do ANY research of your own, or is all your work just based on the parroting of others?

I extend to you an open offer to debate the ballistics in this case any time you wish.

I have a feeling you will not accept the offer, I assure you the outcome would make you look as ridiculous as you did on the O'Reilly show.

Mike

Perhaps Jim will invite both of us on his radio show to debate...each other. However, the topic will need to be expanded beyond mere ballistics, which is only one aspect of this case. Are you up to it?

Greg,

Sure thing. I will tell you that admittedly my main area of research is the ballistics, so it would take some time for me to prepare for "other areas". My main focus for over 4 years has been just the ballistic aspect of the case. This is why I maintain my position that it was a single shooter, no matter the conspiracy issue.

The was I see it is there is an overwhelming amount of loose ends that point towards conspiracy. Thousands of loose ends in fact. If just one of those are true, then there would indeed have been some type of conspiracy. I fully recognize this, and have been saying this for sometime.

I have also stated that it is possible Oswald was not the shooter, and yet we have a mountain of evidence that points to him (circumstantial).

I know Jim, and others have called me a "lone nutter" using it to define what they would consider "irrational thinking", however I have to wonder just how much they understand me, or the position I take in this case.

Mike

[Todd W. Vaughan]

My comments are in italics, bold:

The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge, [if you are referring to the photo of the live round and two casings on a desk (page 111), what I've said before applies: these are rounds sent to the FBI on Friday night. If you are referring to the crime scene photos that Twyman incorrectly claims show a live round and two cartridge cases at the crime scene, then you are just wrong. As demonstrated by the article from the MacAdams site, close-up photos show dramatically that what Twyman and you have claimed to be a live round is really a cartridge case. The crime scene photos then show three cartridge cases.]

where the photos are substantiated by a exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found), [Once again, Professor, thou speakest with a forked tongue. The document you reference is an evidence envelope with the notation: "2 negatives & 4 prints of each of two 8.5 bullet hulls & 1 'live' round of 6.5 ammunition -- from the rifle found on 6th floor of Texas School Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63." It does not say that 2 cases and 1 live round were found on the 6th Floor. Once again, the photos are there to memorialize the transfer of these materials to the FBI and prove nothing about what was found on the 6th floor.] on page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found) [You carefully omit, Professor, what Twyman published on the very next page, page 113. On this next page, Twyman prints a later draft of the same page which has numerous changes in language including a change in the number of "6.5 spent rounds" from (2) to (3). It is obvious that these are earlier and later drafts since corrections are made and information added in the later draft. The correct draft is the later one where three "6.5 spend rounds" are mentioned.] , and on page 116 (a DPD report dated 11-22-63 stating two spent hulls were found on the 6th floor). [Now you are really over-the-top of dishonesty, Professor. This is the receipt by virtue of which FBI Agent Vincent Drain and FBI Agent Charles T Brown, Jr. picked up the live round and two cartridge cases from the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd. What do you think it meant when Studebaker and Day of DPD put their names in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Submitting Specimen?" What do you think it meant when the name of Special Agent Charles T. Brown, Jr. is found in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Receiving Specimen?" What did think it meant when this form contained a note signed by Lieutentant Day of DPD stating, "Vince Drain also present -- actually took possession of all evidence"?] Noel also publishes photos of the scene, which reveal a crude forgery to add a third shell casing [This is so silly it requires no answer. The photos themselves show no attempt at "forgery." All they show is what they have always shown: three cartridge cases lying on the floor of the 6th floor sniper's nest.] and the changed "evidence sheet" in which the numeral "2" has been changed to "3." [see comments above. These are earlier and later drafts of the same report] Nor does Vaughan or Thompson address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE (1969). [What do you want us to say about this?]

I hope you have Noel's book, because he does a thorough job of documenting the point that only two spent shell casings and one unspent "live" round were found. [see above.] That another spent casing would eventually "show up", of course, is par for the history of "evidence" about the assassination, where the DPD and the FBI were doing what they could to make their case against the alleged assassin, including creating a palm print on the weapon by taking it to the funeral parlor and impressing his palm on the Mannlicher-Carcono, where the funeral director complained about having to remove the ink from his hands afterward. [Whoa! Do you know nothing about fingerprints? Are you really suggesting that you make fingerprints on a rifle by putting ink on Oswald's dead hands and pressing a hand against the rifle. You know what you would get if you did this? Just a lot of ink on the rifle. By inking Oswald's hands they could press the fingers against a fingerprint card and obtain good prints. Your point is hilariously wrong.] That these people would go so far as to cite from a notorious "lone-nutter" web site does not overcome the weight of the evidence and only raises questions about their research. [Photos are photos and arguments are arguments wherever found. Numerous folks worked on debunking this point years ago and it finally ended up on MacAdams' site. So what.]

Jim[/b]

When you take the trouble to drill down into what you are actually claiming, the portrait of you that emerges gets darker. We know that Vince Drain of the FBI picked up a live round and two cases from DPD on the evening of November 22nd. What on earth could make you see the receipt for the pickup as somehow showing that two (not three) cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor? Even the managing editor of the the National Enquirer wouldn't try to make that one fly. Again and again you prove exactly what Lifton and I were talking about.

Josiah Thompson

Spot on in every instance.

[John Dolva]

Greg, with regards to the ammo posts, . There was quite some shipments of MCs (and derivatives/associated, ditto mausers, some clip variations though at various times.) to various countries in South America. The US did/does has a policy, like in the monroe doctrine, supplying properly stored ammo could be an avenue to explore.

edit:typo

Edited May 22, 2010 by John Dolva

[Bernice Moore]

POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...

SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS

THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS

Edited May 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Mike Williams]

POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...

SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS

THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS

B,

Quite right.

The crime scene photos clearly show 3 spent hulls. And of course the paperwork was for that was turned over to Drain of the FBI. Which was in fact 2 hulls.

Mike

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Todd, I take for granted that you are not a parrot. I also assume that, in order to endorse these arguments by Josiah Thompson, you have BLOODY TREASON. Since Noel spends quite a lot of time on this (from around page 110 to page 116, if not more), would you please explain what documents, photographs, or other records have been published on each of those pages, why they appear to be important, and why you think they can so readily be dismissed? <DELETED BY MODERATOR> I think you just might be a more serious student of JFK. And while you are at it, could you also address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE, which also shows two spent and one "live" round? Pat Speer has said that at least some of these "evidence photographs" were taken on 26 November 1963. And of course Chief Curry's book was not published until 1969. PLUS Bernice has contributed some additional evidence related to this question. I can't wait to hear you explain it away.

My comments are in italics, bold:

The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge, [if you are referring to the photo of the live round and two casings on a desk (page 111), what I've said before applies: these are rounds sent to the FBI on Friday night. If you are referring to the crime scene photos that Twyman incorrectly claims show a live round and two cartridge cases at the crime scene, then you are just wrong. As demonstrated by the article from the MacAdams site, close-up photos show dramatically that what Twyman and you have claimed to be a live round is really a cartridge case. The crime scene photos then show three cartridge cases.]

where the photos are substantiated by a exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found), [Once again, Professor, thou speakest with a forked tongue. The document you reference is an evidence envelope with the notation: "2 negatives & 4 prints of each of two 8.5 bullet hulls & 1 'live' round of 6.5 ammunition -- from the rifle found on 6th floor of Texas School Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63." It does not say that 2 cases and 1 live round were found on the 6th Floor. Once again, the photos are there to memorialize the transfer of these materials to the FBI and prove nothing about what was found on the 6th floor.] on page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found) [You carefully omit, Professor, what Twyman published on the very next page, page 113. On this next page, Twyman prints a later draft of the same page which has numerous changes in language including a change in the number of "6.5 spent rounds" from (2) to (3). It is obvious that these are earlier and later drafts since corrections are made and information added in the later draft. The correct draft is the later one where three "6.5 spend rounds" are mentioned.] , and on page 116 (a DPD report dated 11-22-63 stating two spent hulls were found on the 6th floor). [Now you are really over-the-top of dishonesty, Professor. This is the receipt by virtue of which FBI Agent Vincent Drain and FBI Agent Charles T Brown, Jr. picked up the live round and two cartridge cases from the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd. What do you think it meant when Studebaker and Day of DPD put their names in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Submitting Specimen?" What do you think it meant when the name of Special Agent Charles T. Brown, Jr. is found in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Receiving Specimen?" What did think it meant when this form contained a note signed by Lieutentant Day of DPD stating, "Vince Drain also present -- actually took possession of all evidence"?] Noel also publishes photos of the scene, which reveal a crude forgery to add a third shell casing [This is so silly it requires no answer. The photos themselves show no attempt at "forgery." All they show is what they have always shown: three cartridge cases lying on the floor of the 6th floor sniper's nest.] and the changed "evidence sheet" in which the numeral "2" has been changed to "3." [see comments above. These are earlier and later drafts of the same report] Nor does Vaughan or Thompson address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE (1969). [What do you want us to say about this?]

I hope you have Noel's book, because he does a thorough job of documenting the point that only two spent shell casings and one unspent "live" round were found. [see above.] That another spent casing would eventually "show up", of course, is par for the history of "evidence" about the assassination, where the DPD and the FBI were doing what they could to make their case against the alleged assassin, including creating a palm print on the weapon by taking it to the funeral parlor and impressing his palm on the Mannlicher-Carcono, where the funeral director complained about having to remove the ink from his hands afterward. [Whoa! Do you know nothing about fingerprints? Are you really suggesting that you make fingerprints on a rifle by putting ink on Oswald's dead hands and pressing a hand against the rifle. You know what you would get if you did this? Just a lot of ink on the rifle. By inking Oswald's hands they could press the fingers against a fingerprint card and obtain good prints. Your point is hilariously wrong.] That these people would go so far as to cite from a notorious "lone-nutter" web site does not overcome the weight of the evidence and only raises questions about their research. [Photos are photos and arguments are arguments wherever found. Numerous folks worked on debunking this point years ago and it finally ended up on MacAdams' site. So what.]

Jim[/b]

When you take the trouble to drill down into what you are actually claiming, the portrait of you that emerges gets darker. We know that Vince Drain of the FBI picked up a live round and two cases from DPD on the evening of November 22nd. What on earth could make you see the receipt for the pickup as somehow showing that two (not three) cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor? Even the managing editor of the the National Enquirer wouldn't try to make that one fly. Again and again you prove exactly what Lifton and I were talking about.

Josiah Thompson

Spot on in every instance.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Evan Burton

[Mike Williams]

Todd, I take for granted that you are not a parrot. I also assume that, in order to endorse these arguments by Josiah Thompson, you have BLOODY TREASON. Since Noel spends quite a lot of time on this (from around page 110 to page 116, if not more), would you please explain what documents, photographs, or other records have been published on each of those pages, why they appear to be important, and why you think they can so readily be dismissed? <DELETED BY MODERATOR> I think you just might be a more serious student of JFK. And while you are at it, could you also address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE, which also shows two spent and one "live" round? Pat Speer has said that at least some of these "evidence photographs" were taken on 26 November 1963. And of course Chief Curry's book was not published until 1969. PLUS Bernice has contributed some additional evidence related to this question. I can't wait to hear you explain it away.

Todd,

Type slower. Obviously Jim did not get "it" the first three times around.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Evan Burton

[Mike Williams]

POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...

SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS

THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS

B....

By bent rim, are you talking about the casing with the bent lip, or neck?

[John Dolva]

Mike, I wonder if you can post a birdseyeview sketch and or a description of the ''brass spit (?)'' arc or whatever expected of a rapidly cycled downwads pointing MC? (With dimensions, please?)

Edited May 25, 2010 by John Dolva

[Bernice Moore]

POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...

SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS

THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS

B....

By bent rim, are you talking about the casing with the bent lip, or neck?

THIS BENT , BEND, DENT, NOT LIKE TOTHERS, WHATEVER...B

[Don Jeffries]

Here is yet another effort to "close" an issue that is, in reality, still wide open to many of us. As Monk pointed out on another thread, these photos-like most of those argued about endlessly on film alteration threads-are subject to individual interpretation. Josiah and others can state it as emphatically as they want, but some of us don't agree that it has definitively been established that there were three shells found on the sixth floor. I'm curious- how many of you who feel this is a closed subject feel that the single bullet theory is a closed subject as well? Or, for that matter, how many think that there is any part of the official story that is impossible, and thus a subject closed for debate?

Josiah- you make a good point about ridiculous theories holding the potential to discredit the valid claims of conspiracy theorists. I've asked you this before, and you have refused to answer- what, in your view, are the valid conspiracy claims at this point? You seem certain that there was no hole in the windshield, have said that you think the backyard photos are "probably genuine," seem to dismiss the Umbrella Man, etc. In fact, I can't think of a single thread on this forum, at least in recent memory, where you presented any pro-conspiracy arguments. I'm not accusing you of anything, or trying to analyze your views, but I should think you'd be interested in being known as something other than the Guy Who Always Argues With Fetzer. I think your personal animosity towards Jim shows through in nearly everything you post here; to be honest, I don't think it's all that paranoid for him to believe you're obsessed with him.

To an unreconstructed Warren Commission critic like me, it just gets tiresome to see thread after thread on this forum, devoted to discrediting CT friendly witnesses or attacking the more radical CTers. I also find it curious that so many alleged believers in conspiracy expend such effort on demolishing various planks of the CTer platform, while those same people are conspiciously silent about truly absurd tenets of LNer thought, such as the "bunched up" coat theory, for instance. I have yet to see Josiah, for example, scan and analyze the film purporting to support this thesis, and juxtapose that against the bullet hole locations in JFK's shirt and coat, as well as the solid supporting evidence (death certificate, original autopsy face sheet, Sibert & O'Neill report, etc.)

Again, I'm not insinutating anything about anyone. I'm simply baffled that there seem to be fewer and fewer pure CT voices on this forum (and others), while neo-con thought appears to reign supreme. Mark Lane is representing Gerald Posner- what's next? Who, at this point, represents the heart and soul of the critical community? Assuming any television network would actually provide an opportunity for true debate on the subject, who could best represent critics? We are eating our own here, with too many posts featuring CTers attacking each other, or attempting to pigeon hole specific CTer claims. I don't see such vitriol directed at the more prominent LNers on this forum. Why is that? All CTers should, at this point, at least be able to agree that the official version of events is demonstrably wrong. Can we at least do that?

[John Dolva]

Mike, I wonder if you can post a birdseyeview sketch and or a description of the ''brass spit (?)'' arc or whatever expected of a rapidly cycled downwads pointing MC? (With dimensions, please?)

As well, Mike, do you have any spent MC cartridges to do some experiments with?

Edited May 26, 2010 by John Dolva

[Mike Williams]

Mike, I wonder if you can post a birdseyeview sketch and or a description of the ''brass spit (?)'' arc or whatever expected of a rapidly cycled downwads pointing MC? (With dimensions, please?)

As well, Mike, do you have any spent MC cartridges to do some experiments with?

John,

I do have some cartridges, and a Carcano as well. The ejection pattern is documented in the WC, as well as the HSCA if I recall correctly.

Mike

[John Dolva]

I am aware of that, Mike. I'm suggesting a test of that data (and some other matters.). I don't know all that much about guns so I don't know how big an ask it is. I'd suggest a grid on soft ground replicating as well as can the shots in the time frame maybe three times over to get a rough average of ejection pattern.

[Mike Williams]

I am aware of that, Mike. I'm suggesting a test of that data (and some other matters.). I don't know all that much about guns so I don't know how big an ask it is. I'd suggest a grid on soft ground replicating as well as can the shots in the time frame maybe three times over to get a rough average of ejection pattern.

John,

The issue is that different rifles may eject differently. Even the same make and model. Certainly different shooter could have an effect as well. Anything that we tested would not be worth diddle. The best tests in my opinion are the ones done with the MC in evidence. At least that was with the same weapon.