THE TWYMAN/FETZER SHELL GAME

[Dean Hagerman]

He misinterprets anything that comes close to him.

Tink

I hope you dont mean that

I know that you own "Bloody Treason" as you posted a scan, if you have read Noels book there is no way you can back up what you just said

[John Dolva]

I find it odd that no one picked up on the OTHER glaring error in the FBI/DPD receipt...that the rifle was referred to as a LEVER action, when it is CLEARLY a BOLT action. Interesting that NEITHER the DPD nor the FBI questioned that. I'm no firearms expert by any stretch of the imagination, but any kid who's ever hunted squirrels with a .22 knows a lever action from a bolt action. Wonder how that slid past BOTH agencies?

was there a description discrepancy in the ads?

Edited May 22, 2010 by John Dolva

[Josiah Thompson]

Fetzer declares: “The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge..”

Turning to Bloody Treason, we find that Twyman has published a muddy version of Commission Exhibit 510 along with a caption that reads: “Two Empty Cartridges: Warren Commission Exhibit showing two empty cartridges and what appears to be one live round of ammunition, circled ‘A,’ on sixth floor of the Texas School Good Depository Building.” Here it is:

The muddy character of the photo printed by Twyman is interesting. Back in 1966, I obtained a print of Commission Exhibit 510 from the Archives. Here it is:

Here now is a closeup of the what is circled and marked with an “A”:

Commission Exhibit 510 was taken by R. L. Studebaker of the Dallas Police. Apparently, the highest resolution copies were held by the Dallas Municipal Archives. Dale Myers, among others obtained close-up copies, of the cartridge case circled and marked “A.” John McAdams posted a copy on his site as part of an article and Todd Vaughan posted recently posted the article on this Forum. Here it is:

What are we seeing circled and marked with an “A” in Commission Exhibit 510? It is precisely what we’ve known all along. It is an empty cartridge case with a separate piece of debis. This is clear not only in the excellent copies of this photo held by the Dallas Municipal Archives but in the standard print I obtained from the Archives in 1967. Had Twyman used a standard print available from the Archives his argument would have died forthwith. He didn’t. We can only speculate as to why this happened. However, as Todd Vaughan points out, this “shell game” was exposed years ago only to be resurrected by Professor Fetzer this past week.

Josiah Thompson

[Bernice Moore]

deleted

Edited May 23, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Josiah Thompson]

Fetzer refers to “page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found..”

Twyman publishes on page 112 and 113 of his book two pages of drafts that contain largely the same information. First, here is page 112:

Next, here is page 113:

Both pages are headed by the word “Evidence” and both contain similar lists of what one might well consider physical evidence. Page 112 makes reference to a “Live round 6.5" and to “6.5 spent rounds (2)” while page 113 makes reference to “Live round 6.5" and “6.5 spent rounds (3).” But these are not the only differences between the two documents.

Page 113 has additions to the prose found on page 112.. At the top of the page, “Carcano carbine” has been added to the description of the rifle. Added to the description of the .38 cal pistol taken from Oswald are “S&W, Rev. sandblast finish, brown wooden handles ser.#510210. Rel. to FBI Agent 11-22-63 and again 11-26-63." In addition, the sentence at the bottom of page 112 that reads “Paraffin test made on Oswald, was positive on both hands and negative on face.” does not appear on page 113 but this may be due to a page break. In addition, with respect to the two items marked “live round” and “cartridge cases” on both pages, additional language has been added on page 113. Not only have the number of cartridge cases been changed from (2) to (3) but this additional information has been added: “Found by Dep. Sheriff Mooney. Picked up by Det. R.H Sims. See pages B-130 and P-262.”

The actual page number of page 112 is given as 443 and page 113 as 130. Both appear to be pages of much larger documents. However, it is unclear what these documents are. Twyman references page 113 as “Warren Commission Report, Volume XXIX, p. 260.” This reference is incorrect. He references the same document as “Warren Commission Report, Commission Exhibit 2003.” Again, this is incorrect. CE 2003 contains a version of this page with three cartridge cases indicated but it is not identical to the version of the page printed in Twyman’s book.

Simply on their face, these two documents appear to be earlier and later drafts of very much the same thing. Page 113 simply corrects mistakes on page 112 and adds additional information to the information on that page. There is no reason to believe that the change from (2) to (3) is anything more than a correction in the record prompted by a reading of the earlier text. In no way, is it "evidence" that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor.

Josiah Thompson

[Pat Speer]

A few days ago on the Judyth/Fetzer thread I posted this detailed critique of Fetzer’s claim (taken from Twyman) that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th Floor near the sniper’s nest. I quote in extenso Fetzer’s claims and follow this with my critique in italics, bold.

QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ May 20 2010, 09:17 PM) My comments are in italics, bold:

The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge, [if you are referring to the photo of the live round and two casings on a desk (page 111), what I've said before applies: these are rounds sent to the FBI on Friday night. If you are referring to the crime scene photos that Twyman incorrectly claims show a live round and two cartridge cases at the crime scene, then you are just wrong. As demonstrated by the article from the MacAdams site, close-up photos show dramatically that what Twyman and you have claimed to be a live round is really a cartridge case. The crime scene photos then show three cartridge cases.] where the photos are substantiated by a exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found), [Once again, Professor, thou speakest with a forked tongue. The document you reference is an evidence envelope with the notation: "2 negatives & 4 prints of each of two 8.5 bullet hulls & 1 'live' round of 6.5 ammunition -- from the rifle found on 6th floor of Texas School Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63." It does not say that 2 cases and 1 live round were found on the 6th Floor. Once again, the photos are there to memorialize the transfer of these materials to the FBI and prove nothing about what was found on the 6th floor.] on page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found) [You carefully omit, Professor, what Twyman published on the very next page, page 113. On this next page, Twyman prints a later draft of the same page which has numerous changes in language including a change in the number of "6.5 spent rounds" from (2) to (3). It is obvious that these are earlier and later drafts since corrections are made and information added in the later draft. The correct draft is the later one where three "6.5 spend rounds" are mentioned.] , and on page 116 (a DPD report dated 11-22-63 stating two spent hulls were found on the 6th floor). [Now you are really over-the-top of dishonesty, Professor. This is the receipt by virtue of which FBI Agent Vincent Drain and FBI Agent Charles T Brown, Jr. picked up the live round and two cartridge cases from the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd. What do you think it meant when Studebaker and Day of DPD put their names in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Submitting Specimen?" What do you think it meant when the name of Special Agent Charles T. Brown, Jr. is found in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Receiving Specimen?" What did think it meant when this form contained a note signed by Lieutentant Day of DPD stating, "Vince Drain also present -- actually took possession of all evidence"?] Noel also publishes photos of the scene, which reveal a crude forgery to add a third shell casing [This is so silly it requires no answer. The photos themselves show no attempt at "forgery." All they show is what they have always shown: three cartridge cases lying on the floor of the 6th floor sniper's nest.] and the changed "evidence sheet" in which the numeral "2" has been changed to "3." [see comments above. These are earlier and later drafts of the same report] Nor does Vaughan or Thompson address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE (1969). [What do you want us to say about this?]

I hope you have Noel's book, because he does a thorough job of documenting the point that only two spent shell casings and one unspent "live" round were found. [see above.] That another spent casing would eventually "show up", of course, is par for the history of "evidence" about the assassination, where the DPD and the FBI were doing what they could to make their case against the alleged assassin, including creating a palm print on the weapon by taking it to the funeral parlor and impressing his palm on the Mannlicher-Carcono, where the funeral director complained about having to remove the ink from his hands afterward. [Whoa! Do you know nothing about fingerprints? Are you really suggesting that you make fingerprints on a rifle by putting ink on Oswald's dead hands and pressing a hand against the rifle. You know what you would get if you did this? Just a lot of ink on the rifle. By inking Oswald's hands they could press the fingers against a fingerprint card and obtain good prints. Your point is hilariously wrong.] That these people would go so far as to cite from a notorious "lone-nutter" web site does not overcome the weight of the evidence and only raises questions about their research. [Photos are photos and arguments are arguments wherever found. Numerous folks worked on debunking this point years ago and it finally ended up on MacAdams' site. So what.]

Jim[/b]

When you take the trouble to drill down into what you are actually claiming, the portrait of you that emerges gets darker. We know that Vince Drain of the FBI picked up a live round and two cases from DPD on the evening of November 22nd. What on earth could make you see the receipt for the pickup as somehow showing that two (not three) cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor? Even the managing editor of the the National Enquirer wouldn't try to make that one fly. Again and again you prove exactly what Lifton and I were talking about.

Josiah Thompson

Fetzer’s response to this detailed critique was to ignore it and ask that questions from me and Mike Williams be moved to another thread. I was delighted to see that Todd Vaughan had opened this new thread with the apt title, “THE TWYMAN/FETZER SHELL GAME.” What I intend to do in this post (and in subsequent posts on this thread ) is to carry out an extremely specific refutation of Fetzer’s claims. First, I will quote what Fetzer said. Second, I will scan and post the document or photo that he cites. Third, I will explain why and how Fetzer has misrepresented what is there.

I will start here with Fetzer’s claim that a specific DPD document found on p.116 of Twyman’s book states that “two cartridge cases and one live round were found on the sixth floor.” Here’s the document from page 116 of Twyman’s book:

Note that this document is a standard release for the Crime Scene Search Unit of the Identification Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON SUBMITTING SPECIMEN” is filled with the names of Day and Studebaker. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON RECEIVING SPECIMEN” is filled in with the name “Charles T. Brown, Jr. Spec. Agent, FBI, Dallas.” The blank with the legend “SPECIMEN RELEASED TO” is filled with note in Lieutenant Day’s hand: “Vince Drain also present – actually took possession of all evidence.” The description of what was received by Drain and Brown of the FBI is given as: “from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository 1 6.5 lever action rifle #C2766 2 spent hulls from 6th floor window.”

We know independently that FBI Agent Vincent Drain picked up the items mentioned and additional items from the Dallas Police on Friday evening. We know independently that Lt. Day held back one cartridge case and released only two (as indicated) to the FBI on Friday evening. We know that these materials were received at the FBI Lab the next morning. Fetzer and Twyman claim that this receipt proves a live round and two cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor. As a receipt for pickup of materials, all it proves is what we already knew. The rifle and two cartridge cases were picked up for transfer to the FBI Lab by Agent Vincent Drain of the FBI on the evening of November 22nd.

Josiah Thompson

Josiah, the document is not as clear as it should be, and leaves a smidgen of room for Twyman's impression. Look at the time: 1:30 and 2:15. 1:30 was the approximate time Day recovered the shells and bullet. 2:15 is the time he brought these items, along with the rifle, to the identification bureau. These items were not given to Drain until 10 hours later. So why did Day add that Drain was present and actually took possession of all evidence? Was he trying to hide that the DPD had these items in their possession for 10 hours before they were given to Drain?

I started a chapter on this over a year ago, but got sidetracked by the birth of my son. But what I came to realize in my study is that the DPD's crime lab, headed by Day, was either grossly incompetent, or a den of liars. His note about Drain is but one minor example.

As far as the third shell, it was never submitted to the identification bureau on 11-22. So where did it go? Even, the WC saw this as a problem... As I recall, it was eventually offered that Fritz held onto a shell for himself, so that he would know what kind of weapon to look for. Why he failed to give it to Day after the recovery of the rifle, or even the next day, after the FBI told him the rifle matched the other two shells, remains to be seen. But perhaps Fritz realized that the dented lip raised questions on whether the shell could even have held a bullet, and was holding it back until it became someone else's problem.

[Josiah Thompson]

Fetzer claims that Twyman's page 110 supports the notion that two not three cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor. He says “tho photos [i take it he means CE 510; see earlier post] are substantiated by exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found)..

Okay, let’s look at page 110 of Twyman’s book. Here it is:

Here is the page following... page 111:

Page 110 is simply either the outside of an FBI envelope or FBI form in which SA Doyle Williams has indicated that an envelope contains “2 negatives & 4 prints of two 6.5 bullet hulls & 1 ‘live” round of 6.5 ammunition from rifle found on 6th Floor of Texas Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63.” Page 111 of Twyman’s book is a photo of an M-C live round and two cartridge cases sitting on a metal desk with a card propped up which says: “F.B.I. 11-22-63.” This may or may not be one of the photos referenced on page 110. Were these photos taken in the Dallas FBI office before one live round and two cartridge cases were shipped off to Washington? We don’t know. All we do know is that the photos don’t in any way back up the extravagant claims about them made in Twyman’s captions. Nor do they show in any way what Fetzer claimed they show.

Josiah Thompson

[Josiah Thompson]

A few days ago on the Judyth/Fetzer thread I posted this detailed critique of Fetzer’s claim (taken from Twyman) that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th Floor near the sniper’s nest. I quote in extenso Fetzer’s claims and follow this with my critique in italics, bold.

QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ May 20 2010, 09:17 PM) My comments are in italics, bold:

The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge, [if you are referring to the photo of the live round and two casings on a desk (page 111), what I've said before applies: these are rounds sent to the FBI on Friday night. If you are referring to the crime scene photos that Twyman incorrectly claims show a live round and two cartridge cases at the crime scene, then you are just wrong. As demonstrated by the article from the MacAdams site, close-up photos show dramatically that what Twyman and you have claimed to be a live round is really a cartridge case. The crime scene photos then show three cartridge cases.] where the photos are substantiated by a exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found), [Once again, Professor, thou speakest with a forked tongue. The document you reference is an evidence envelope with the notation: "2 negatives & 4 prints of each of two 8.5 bullet hulls & 1 'live' round of 6.5 ammunition -- from the rifle found on 6th floor of Texas School Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63." It does not say that 2 cases and 1 live round were found on the 6th Floor. Once again, the photos are there to memorialize the transfer of these materials to the FBI and prove nothing about what was found on the 6th floor.] on page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found) [You carefully omit, Professor, what Twyman published on the very next page, page 113. On this next page, Twyman prints a later draft of the same page which has numerous changes in language including a change in the number of "6.5 spent rounds" from (2) to (3). It is obvious that these are earlier and later drafts since corrections are made and information added in the later draft. The correct draft is the later one where three "6.5 spend rounds" are mentioned.] , and on page 116 (a DPD report dated 11-22-63 stating two spent hulls were found on the 6th floor). [Now you are really over-the-top of dishonesty, Professor. This is the receipt by virtue of which FBI Agent Vincent Drain and FBI Agent Charles T Brown, Jr. picked up the live round and two cartridge cases from the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd. What do you think it meant when Studebaker and Day of DPD put their names in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Submitting Specimen?" What do you think it meant when the name of Special Agent Charles T. Brown, Jr. is found in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Receiving Specimen?" What did think it meant when this form contained a note signed by Lieutentant Day of DPD stating, "Vince Drain also present -- actually took possession of all evidence"?] Noel also publishes photos of the scene, which reveal a crude forgery to add a third shell casing [This is so silly it requires no answer. The photos themselves show no attempt at "forgery." All they show is what they have always shown: three cartridge cases lying on the floor of the 6th floor sniper's nest.] and the changed "evidence sheet" in which the numeral "2" has been changed to "3." [see comments above. These are earlier and later drafts of the same report] Nor does Vaughan or Thompson address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE (1969). [What do you want us to say about this?]

I hope you have Noel's book, because he does a thorough job of documenting the point that only two spent shell casings and one unspent "live" round were found. [see above.] That another spent casing would eventually "show up", of course, is par for the history of "evidence" about the assassination, where the DPD and the FBI were doing what they could to make their case against the alleged assassin, including creating a palm print on the weapon by taking it to the funeral parlor and impressing his palm on the Mannlicher-Carcono, where the funeral director complained about having to remove the ink from his hands afterward. [Whoa! Do you know nothing about fingerprints? Are you really suggesting that you make fingerprints on a rifle by putting ink on Oswald's dead hands and pressing a hand against the rifle. You know what you would get if you did this? Just a lot of ink on the rifle. By inking Oswald's hands they could press the fingers against a fingerprint card and obtain good prints. Your point is hilariously wrong.] That these people would go so far as to cite from a notorious "lone-nutter" web site does not overcome the weight of the evidence and only raises questions about their research. [Photos are photos and arguments are arguments wherever found. Numerous folks worked on debunking this point years ago and it finally ended up on MacAdams' site. So what.]

Jim[/b]

When you take the trouble to drill down into what you are actually claiming, the portrait of you that emerges gets darker. We know that Vince Drain of the FBI picked up a live round and two cases from DPD on the evening of November 22nd. What on earth could make you see the receipt for the pickup as somehow showing that two (not three) cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor? Even the managing editor of the the National Enquirer wouldn't try to make that one fly. Again and again you prove exactly what Lifton and I were talking about.

Josiah Thompson

Fetzer’s response to this detailed critique was to ignore it and ask that questions from me and Mike Williams be moved to another thread. I was delighted to see that Todd Vaughan had opened this new thread with the apt title, “THE TWYMAN/FETZER SHELL GAME.” What I intend to do in this post (and in subsequent posts on this thread ) is to carry out an extremely specific refutation of Fetzer’s claims. First, I will quote what Fetzer said. Second, I will scan and post the document or photo that he cites. Third, I will explain why and how Fetzer has misrepresented what is there.

I will start here with Fetzer’s claim that a specific DPD document found on p.116 of Twyman’s book states that “two cartridge cases and one live round were found on the sixth floor.” Here’s the document from page 116 of Twyman’s book:

Note that this document is a standard release for the Crime Scene Search Unit of the Identification Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON SUBMITTING SPECIMEN” is filled with the names of Day and Studebaker. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON RECEIVING SPECIMEN” is filled in with the name “Charles T. Brown, Jr. Spec. Agent, FBI, Dallas.” The blank with the legend “SPECIMEN RELEASED TO” is filled with note in Lieutenant Day’s hand: “Vince Drain also present – actually took possession of all evidence.” The description of what was received by Drain and Brown of the FBI is given as: “from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository 1 6.5 lever action rifle #C2766 2 spent hulls from 6th floor window.”

We know independently that FBI Agent Vincent Drain picked up the items mentioned and additional items from the Dallas Police on Friday evening. We know independently that Lt. Day held back one cartridge case and released only two (as indicated) to the FBI on Friday evening. We know that these materials were received at the FBI Lab the next morning. Fetzer and Twyman claim that this receipt proves a live round and two cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor. As a receipt for pickup of materials, all it proves is what we already knew. The rifle and two cartridge cases were picked up for transfer to the FBI Lab by Agent Vincent Drain of the FBI on the evening of November 22nd.

Josiah Thompson

Josiah, the document is not as clear as it should be, and leaves a smidgen of room for Twyman's impression. Look at the time: 1:30 and 2:15. 1:30 was the approximate time Day recovered the shells and bullet. 2:15 is the time he brought these items, along with the rifle, to the identification bureau. These items were not given to Drain until 10 hours later. So why did Day add that Drain was present and actually took possession of all evidence? Was he trying to hide that the DPD had these items in their possession for 10 hours before they were given to Drain?

I started a chapter on this over a year ago, but got sidetracked by the birth of my son. But what I came to realize in my study is that the DPD's crime lab, headed by Day, was either grossly incompetent, or a den of liars. His note about Drain is but one minor example.

As far as the third shell, it was never submitted to the identification bureau on 11-22. So where did it go? Even, the WC saw this as a problem... As I recall, it was eventually offered that Fritz held onto a shell for himself, so that he would know what kind of weapon to look for. Why he failed to give it to Day after the recovery of the rifle, or even the next day, after the FBI told him the rifle matched the other two shells, remains to be seen. But perhaps Fritz realized that the dented lip raised questions on whether the shell could even have held a bullet, and was holding it back until it became someone else's problem.

I agree, Pat. Fritz, Dhority, Day.... It's all a tangled web. But what isn't tangled is that three cases were found on the 6th floor and that's all I'm dealing with here. Would you agree?

Josiah Thompson

[Bernice Moore]

deleted

Edited May 23, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

deleted

Edited May 23, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Evan Burton]

Sorry Bernice, but I can't explain it. No posts are invisible and no-one has deleted any.

i made a post in this thread composed of docs and photos with no comment, i wonder why it is not here now..??????? could i please have a reply from a mod or such...thankyou...b

i am asking again thankyou, where has my post gone...i will repost with no comments as i did about 5 pm here, in canada 11pm ish on this f, in england, the docs and photos that i previously had, lets see if they disappear also.......b

[Pat Speer]

A few days ago on the Judyth/Fetzer thread I posted this detailed critique of Fetzer’s claim (taken from Twyman) that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th Floor near the sniper’s nest. I quote in extenso Fetzer’s claims and follow this with my critique in italics, bold.

QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ May 20 2010, 09:17 PM) My comments are in italics, bold:

The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge, [if you are referring to the photo of the live round and two casings on a desk (page 111), what I've said before applies: these are rounds sent to the FBI on Friday night. If you are referring to the crime scene photos that Twyman incorrectly claims show a live round and two cartridge cases at the crime scene, then you are just wrong. As demonstrated by the article from the MacAdams site, close-up photos show dramatically that what Twyman and you have claimed to be a live round is really a cartridge case. The crime scene photos then show three cartridge cases.] where the photos are substantiated by a exhibits (documents) on page 110 (an FBI agent's note of two hulls and one "live" round were found), [Once again, Professor, thou speakest with a forked tongue. The document you reference is an evidence envelope with the notation: "2 negatives & 4 prints of each of two 8.5 bullet hulls & 1 'live' round of 6.5 ammunition -- from the rifle found on 6th floor of Texas School Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63." It does not say that 2 cases and 1 live round were found on the 6th Floor. Once again, the photos are there to memorialize the transfer of these materials to the FBI and prove nothing about what was found on the 6th floor.] on page 112 (the original Oswald "evidence sheet" showing one "live" and 2 spent rounds were found) [You carefully omit, Professor, what Twyman published on the very next page, page 113. On this next page, Twyman prints a later draft of the same page which has numerous changes in language including a change in the number of "6.5 spent rounds" from (2) to (3). It is obvious that these are earlier and later drafts since corrections are made and information added in the later draft. The correct draft is the later one where three "6.5 spend rounds" are mentioned.] , and on page 116 (a DPD report dated 11-22-63 stating two spent hulls were found on the 6th floor). [Now you are really over-the-top of dishonesty, Professor. This is the receipt by virtue of which FBI Agent Vincent Drain and FBI Agent Charles T Brown, Jr. picked up the live round and two cartridge cases from the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd. What do you think it meant when Studebaker and Day of DPD put their names in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Submitting Specimen?" What do you think it meant when the name of Special Agent Charles T. Brown, Jr. is found in the blank marked, "Signature of Person Receiving Specimen?" What did think it meant when this form contained a note signed by Lieutentant Day of DPD stating, "Vince Drain also present -- actually took possession of all evidence"?] Noel also publishes photos of the scene, which reveal a crude forgery to add a third shell casing [This is so silly it requires no answer. The photos themselves show no attempt at "forgery." All they show is what they have always shown: three cartridge cases lying on the floor of the 6th floor sniper's nest.] and the changed "evidence sheet" in which the numeral "2" has been changed to "3." [see comments above. These are earlier and later drafts of the same report] Nor does Vaughan or Thompson address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE (1969). [What do you want us to say about this?]

I hope you have Noel's book, because he does a thorough job of documenting the point that only two spent shell casings and one unspent "live" round were found. [see above.] That another spent casing would eventually "show up", of course, is par for the history of "evidence" about the assassination, where the DPD and the FBI were doing what they could to make their case against the alleged assassin, including creating a palm print on the weapon by taking it to the funeral parlor and impressing his palm on the Mannlicher-Carcono, where the funeral director complained about having to remove the ink from his hands afterward. [Whoa! Do you know nothing about fingerprints? Are you really suggesting that you make fingerprints on a rifle by putting ink on Oswald's dead hands and pressing a hand against the rifle. You know what you would get if you did this? Just a lot of ink on the rifle. By inking Oswald's hands they could press the fingers against a fingerprint card and obtain good prints. Your point is hilariously wrong.] That these people would go so far as to cite from a notorious "lone-nutter" web site does not overcome the weight of the evidence and only raises questions about their research. [Photos are photos and arguments are arguments wherever found. Numerous folks worked on debunking this point years ago and it finally ended up on MacAdams' site. So what.]

Jim[/b]

When you take the trouble to drill down into what you are actually claiming, the portrait of you that emerges gets darker. We know that Vince Drain of the FBI picked up a live round and two cases from DPD on the evening of November 22nd. What on earth could make you see the receipt for the pickup as somehow showing that two (not three) cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor? Even the managing editor of the the National Enquirer wouldn't try to make that one fly. Again and again you prove exactly what Lifton and I were talking about.

Josiah Thompson

Fetzer’s response to this detailed critique was to ignore it and ask that questions from me and Mike Williams be moved to another thread. I was delighted to see that Todd Vaughan had opened this new thread with the apt title, “THE TWYMAN/FETZER SHELL GAME.” What I intend to do in this post (and in subsequent posts on this thread ) is to carry out an extremely specific refutation of Fetzer’s claims. First, I will quote what Fetzer said. Second, I will scan and post the document or photo that he cites. Third, I will explain why and how Fetzer has misrepresented what is there.

I will start here with Fetzer’s claim that a specific DPD document found on p.116 of Twyman’s book states that “two cartridge cases and one live round were found on the sixth floor.” Here’s the document from page 116 of Twyman’s book:

Note that this document is a standard release for the Crime Scene Search Unit of the Identification Bureau of the Dallas Police Department. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON SUBMITTING SPECIMEN” is filled with the names of Day and Studebaker. The blank beside the legend “SIGNATURE OF PERSON RECEIVING SPECIMEN” is filled in with the name “Charles T. Brown, Jr. Spec. Agent, FBI, Dallas.” The blank with the legend “SPECIMEN RELEASED TO” is filled with note in Lieutenant Day’s hand: “Vince Drain also present – actually took possession of all evidence.” The description of what was received by Drain and Brown of the FBI is given as: “from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository 1 6.5 lever action rifle #C2766 2 spent hulls from 6th floor window.”

We know independently that FBI Agent Vincent Drain picked up the items mentioned and additional items from the Dallas Police on Friday evening. We know independently that Lt. Day held back one cartridge case and released only two (as indicated) to the FBI on Friday evening. We know that these materials were received at the FBI Lab the next morning. Fetzer and Twyman claim that this receipt proves a live round and two cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor. As a receipt for pickup of materials, all it proves is what we already knew. The rifle and two cartridge cases were picked up for transfer to the FBI Lab by Agent Vincent Drain of the FBI on the evening of November 22nd.

Josiah Thompson

Josiah, the document is not as clear as it should be, and leaves a smidgen of room for Twyman's impression. Look at the time: 1:30 and 2:15. 1:30 was the approximate time Day recovered the shells and bullet. 2:15 is the time he brought these items, along with the rifle, to the identification bureau. These items were not given to Drain until 10 hours later. So why did Day add that Drain was present and actually took possession of all evidence? Was he trying to hide that the DPD had these items in their possession for 10 hours before they were given to Drain?

I started a chapter on this over a year ago, but got sidetracked by the birth of my son. But what I came to realize in my study is that the DPD's crime lab, headed by Day, was either grossly incompetent, or a den of liars. His note about Drain is but one minor example.

As far as the third shell, it was never submitted to the identification bureau on 11-22. So where did it go? Even, the WC saw this as a problem... As I recall, it was eventually offered that Fritz held onto a shell for himself, so that he would know what kind of weapon to look for. Why he failed to give it to Day after the recovery of the rifle, or even the next day, after the FBI told him the rifle matched the other two shells, remains to be seen. But perhaps Fritz realized that the dented lip raised questions on whether the shell could even have held a bullet, and was holding it back until it became someone else's problem.

I agree, Pat. Fritz, Dhority, Day.... It's all a tangled web. But what isn't tangled is that three cases were found on the 6th floor and that's all I'm dealing with here. Would you agree?

Josiah Thompson

I agree that a number of Sheriff's Dept. employees, Dallas Police employees, and newsman Tom Alyea, all claimed, from the very first, that three shells were recovered, and that this leads me to suspect there were indeed three shells.

But the early paperwork doesn't really support this. There should have been an 11-22 memo saying three shells were recovered, and that Fritz held onto one. As I recall, no such memo exists. Sloppy. Sloppy. Sloppy.

Posner now claims Lane could have got Oswald acquitted. I can only assume this is one of the reasons why.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Bernice Moore]

Sorry Bernice, but I can't explain it. No posts are invisible and no-one has deleted any.

i made a post in this thread composed of docs and photos with no comment, i wonder why it is not here now..??????? could i please have a reply from a mod or such...thankyou...b

i am asking again thankyou, where has my post gone...i will repost with no comments as i did about 5 pm here, in canada 11pm ish on this f, in england, the docs and photos that i previously had, lets see if they disappear also.......b

thanks evan but i just did the threads and no they are not there only the reposts and photos from the judyth thread in the new rifle scope thread i started, the docs i had posted in this thread are not here nor in any other, i checked the controls also...... sorry for the confusion it does go with the subject...b

Edited May 23, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

i have posted them again for the last time, i hope some are interested, sorry for the missing and confusion...but they are back now...best all thanks b..

Edited May 23, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Evan Burton]

Ah!

I put them in the ballistics thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=193465

Sorry Bernice.