Was 1963 Film Alteration Technology Adequate?

[John Dolva]

If you're talking about the far guy clapping he seems to be doing so with the flats of his hands somewhat inplane with the sun and therefore one looks at movements that include shadows hence rapid looking. But its not that rapid anyway, a pair of adjacent frames from mentesena outside the tsbd shows a footstep traversing about a foot (this was just a random selection to check how fast something of a human part can move where there is no dispute re film.)

Motorcycle? Do you mean the wheels in the top, being the bottom of the previous frames?

The guy with the white paper/arm, is roughly in the area where the wind ''bounces'' back off the court bldg. Seems to me he's doing a typical newspaper folding flick in those sort of conditions. The lady strolling the pram seems to move normally, busy maybe.

[Chris Davidson]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

For your friend.

The gentleman on Houston St.

Back and forth loop. Slower than 18FPS for easier viewing.

John nailed it, I believe.

I have an idea about the blurred frames in this sequence, in relation to the speed question, let me see how it looks, then I'll post that also.

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4ADAE/PAPER.gif

Edited August 18, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Jerry Logan]

If you're talking about the far guy clapping he seems to be doing so with the flats of his hands somewhat inplane with the sun and therefore one looks at movements that include shadows hence rapid looking. But its not that rapid anyway, a pair of adjacent frames from mentesena outside the tsbd shows a footstep traversing about a foot (this was just a random selection to check how fast something of a human part can move where there is no dispute re film.)

Motorcycle? Do you mean the wheels in the top, being the bottom of the previous frames?

The guy with the white paper/arm, is roughly in the area where the wind ''bounces'' back off the court bldg. Seems to me he's doing a typical newspaper folding flick in those sort of conditions. The lady strolling the pram seems to move normally, busy maybe.

Thanks John,

Good observations. By motorcycle or car I meant the in-frame cars passing on Houston street just barely visible through the Houston bystanders. (Not the limo/cycle visible at the bottom of the adjacent frame). But never mind, I think you're probably right about what's in-frame. Although, it would be extremely interesting if that were a motorcycle.

Best to you,

Jerry

[Jerry Logan]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

For your friend.

The gentleman on Houston St.

Back and forth loop. Slower than 18FPS for easier viewing.

John nailed it, I believe.

I have an idea about the blurred frames in this sequence, in relation to the speed question, let me see how it looks, then I'll post that also.

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4ADAE/PAPER.gif

Chris, your talent with videos never ceases to amaze me. A paper and even a shadow from the paper in the right place. I think John and you've got it!

Actually Herbert and I aren't .... er,close..... but I thought he might have had something.

My very best and thanks to both of you,

Jerry

[John Dolva]

It's always been a pleasure to exchange ideas with you, Jerry.

Best to you too.

[Chris Davidson]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

I would expect to see more of this speed (discounting limo).

Probably a pinch faster, but not much.

What did I do?

Took out the blurry frames in the sequence (about 12 of them).

Reduced FPS to 6, in the movie.

Thoughts!!!!

thanks,

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4D37D/6FPS.mov

[Jerry Logan]

Jerry,

I would expect to see more of this speed (discounting limo).

Probably a pinch faster, but not much.

What did I do?

Took out the blurry frames in the sequence (about 12 of them).

Reduced FPS to 6, in the movie.

Thoughts!!!!

thanks,

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4D37D/6FPS.mov

Chris,

It doesn't look bad - but, if you tried to pass it off as an 18 fps movie, the limo would be passing the background objects at around 21 mpg.

Best,

Jerry

Edited August 19, 2010 by Jerry Logan

[Greg Burnham]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

I would expect to see more of this speed (discounting limo).

Probably a pinch faster, but not much.

What did I do?

Took out the blurry frames in the sequence (about 12 of them).

Reduced FPS to 6, in the movie.

Thoughts!!!!

thanks,

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4D37D/6FPS.mov

This is terrific work, Chris. Many thanks for the effort. I'm sure we'll all learn more from it.

[David G. Healy]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

I would expect to see more of this speed (discounting limo).

Probably a pinch faster, but not much.

What did I do?

Took out the blurry frames in the sequence (about 12 of them).

Reduced FPS to 6, in the movie.

Thoughts!!!!

thanks,

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4D37D/6FPS.mov

This is terrific work, Chris. Many thanks for the effort. I'm sure we'll all learn more from it.

Hey Greg, yes sir: chris is indeed, GOOD! Any nutters in this thread come up with anything of merit yet?

David

[Greg Burnham]

Good work, as usual, Chris.

Something I think is never considered is that the original film used in fabrication MAY have been

shot IN SLOW MOTION using 16mm, giving fabricators much more material to work with in manipulating

frames...i.e., 48 fps to reduce to 16 (or fudge it to 18.3).

Chris...have you ever considered that possibility?

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Yes, I brought up a similar thought in this topic a little while ago: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16374&view=findpost&p=201602

You probably just missed it.

Jerry has pointed out that the clapping speed of Apron Man and his friend appear to be quite rapid.

He wanted a larger view of them.

I am waiting to hear what his thoughts are.

chris

Jeez Chris - I don't know. I can get myself to clap that quickly but it's not very natural. And the action on Houston street looks very odd.

Maybe the speed of the passing cars on Houston or a motorcycle? What are your thoughts?

Best,

Jerry

Thanks for the stabilization! If Jack and I agree you know it's got to be true. Nice work.

Jerry,

I would expect to see more of this speed (discounting limo).

Probably a pinch faster, but not much.

What did I do?

Took out the blurry frames in the sequence (about 12 of them).

Reduced FPS to 6, in the movie.

Thoughts!!!!

thanks,

chris

http://98.155.4.83:8400/4D37D/6FPS.mov

This is terrific work, Chris. Many thanks for the effort. I'm sure we'll all learn more from it.

Hey Greg, yes sir: chris is indeed, GOOD! Any nutters in this thread come up with anything of merit yet?

David

Not so far...

[Craig Lamson]

Not so far...

You have that backwards, the alterationists are still batting zero. All they have EVER presenteed is junk.

Not that you would actually know or understand, being just a fanboy.

After all as Dr. Fielding says:

"...In my judgment there is no way in which manipulation of these images could have been achieved satisfactorily in 1963 with the technology then available; if such an attempt at image manipulation of the footage had occurred in 1963 the results could not possibly have survived professional scrutiny"

This film has undergone more "scrutiny" than perhaps any film ever. Still agter all of these years not s single claim of alterations can wihtstand inspection.

Kind of puts a very fine point onthe question raised in the original post....

Edited August 20, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Greg Burnham]

Absence of the specific evidence you seek to substantiate a claim of alteration is not evidence of absence of alteration.

[Craig Lamson]

Absence of the specific evidence you seek to substantiate a claim of alteration is not evidence of absence of alteration.

Well the alterationists, like you, sure have an absense of specfic evidence......

[Dean Hagerman]

Absence of the specific evidence you seek to substantiate a claim of alteration is not evidence of absence of alteration.

Well the alterationists, like you, sure have an absense of specfic evidence......

You have evidence and proof in your house

For some reason you refuse to admit that

[Craig Lamson]

Absence of the specific evidence you seek to substantiate a claim of alteration is not evidence of absence of alteration.

Well the alterationists, like you, sure have an absense of specfic evidence......

You have evidence and proof in your house

For some reason you refuse to admit that

No Dean, there is no "evidence" or "proof" of Z film fakery in my house nor in the book you continue to pimp. None of the content is worth a plug nickel. We know that because YOU can't find any that you are willing to post and defend.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Craig Lamson