Dean Hagerman Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Therefore, reasonable people (i.e. people who know for a fact that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin, and that the Zapruder film was never altered) should have as much consideration for you as you have for flat Earth believers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Why do you think that? Who knows. Its just baseless speuclation like your original claim. And just like yours its meanningless. Craig is speculating?! The sky must be falling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Therefore, reasonable people (i.e. people who know for a fact that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin, and that the Zapruder film was never altered) should have as much consideration for you as you have for flat Earth believers ! people should have as much consideration for you as you have for flat Earth believers Francois I wouldn't want to spend anytime with such fools. Why? What would be gained? I stay well clear of people who have absurd ridiculous wiews. But you seem to WANT to converse with people you regard as being complete idiots!! Why would you do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François Carlier Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Edited August 13, 2010 by François Carlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 François Carlier, a simple Frenchman Thanks for pointing out the obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Francois, According to your logic and argument, 80% of the people believe the world is flat. Bill Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Sorry if I don't follow you. He says...knowingly! Francois, that's what you're here for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François Carlier Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Sorry if I don't follow you. He says...knowingly! Francois, that's what you're here for! OK. Thank you for your beautiful demonstration. /F.C./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François Carlier Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Francois, According to your logic and argument, 80% of the people believe the world is flat. Bill Kelly Oh, really ? 80% ? I'm glad it's not 85% !!! I mean, is that really all you have to say after reading my post ? /F.C./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
François Carlier Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 François Carlier, a simple Frenchman Thanks for pointing out the obvious You're welcome. Anytime. /F.C./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Mister Laverick, I shall explain to you. People who believe that the Earth is flat have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. People who believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy also have books, videos, articles, web pages, "arguments", conferences, and so on. YOU, Mister Laverick, have called them (those who believe in a flat Earth) "ignorants". So YOU have shown contempt toward them. Not I. I then wrote that if you have that little consideration for them, reasonable people should have as much consideration for you. Of course, should you tell me that from now on you will give credit and consideration to them, then I will give credit and consideration to you and your conspiracy-minded friends. What I mean is this : All scientists in the world + NASA engineers + Carl Sagan + Stephen Hawking + great scientists of the past (Einstein and others) + James Randi + Martin Gardner + sailors + the Pope + pilots + etc. … all say that the Earth is round, when a bunch of people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say that it is flat, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never checked myself). Likewise, General Eisenhower and his soldiers + all historians + tons of archives + witnesses + prisoners + my grandfather + history books + scores of books written by military men from all countries + etc. … say that Nazi Germany had extermination camps and gas chambers, when a bunch of politically extremist people with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say it's not true, so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I wasn't born in 1945 and never saw it with my own eyes). Likewise, the Dallas police (composed of honest men who tried to do their job as well as possible) + the FBI + Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Pierre Salinger + Dale Myers + Jim Moore + Vincent Bugliosi + Larry Sturdivan + James Randi + Martin Gardner + Mel Ayton + Norman Mailer + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + scientists + etc. … say that Lee Oswald killed Kennedy, when a bunch of conspiracy-minded individuals with fewer credentials or knowledge or experience say there was a conspiracy (and also that Man did not go to the moon or there were no planes on the twin towers), so I, François Carlier, a simple Frenchman, find it reasonable to join the first group and concur with them and spread their word (although, to tell you the truth, I never had a personal conversation with Lee Oswald). You see, I am not a braggart. I do not consider myself better than the police or the newsmen who lived in Dallas in 1963. I do not consider myself better than Robert Oswald who says his brother was guilty. I do not consider myself better than Doctor Perry (who wrote me a letter saying he believed the official version), I do not consider myself better than all the historians, policemen, law-enforcement officers and officials of all sorts who say that all evidence points to Oswald. Only conspiracy theorists consider themselves better than the rest. They think they can spot the hidden evidence, or that they are better than the rest of us to "determine the truth". Everybody took it for granted that Kennedy's body was inside the bronze casket unloaded from Air Force One at Andrews airport. But David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the casket was empty ! Everybody (including, by the way, entire generations of Warren-report critics) took it for granted that the Zapruder film was authentic. But Jim Fetzer, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the Zapruder film was faked ! Everybody took it for granted that Oswald's backyard photos were genuine. But Robert Groden, a conspiracy theorist, certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, was able to "see the light" and claimed the pictures were forgeries ! And I could go on and on. (For instance, James DiEugenio is also certainly more intelligent than the rest of the American population, since he has been able to determine that the single-bullet theory is wrong, and that Oswald was innocent and there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Why he so far has been unable to admit that the Zapruder film is fake despite the tons of proofs put forth by Jim Fetzer is anybody's guess !!!! –- sarcasm here) Well, to cut a long story short, Mister Laverick, YOU belong to the family of people who have the nerve to claim they are better than the true experts and police officers who investigated the JFK case and concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin. I am not that overconfident. I am more modest. I prefer to side with the experts. I find it more reasonable to believe them. As I said earlier, I believe what Robert Kennedy + Robert Oswald + Hugh Aynesworth + James Leavelle + Doctor Perry + Pierre Salinger told me. I do not consider myself better or more honest or brighter or more shrewd than the Dallas police or FBI officials or the Warren Commission and HSCA lawyers and investigators and members who all wrote that Lee Oswald was the sole assassin. Conspiracy theorists claim they have uncovered a hidden truth. Sorry if I don't follow you. /François Carlier/ Sorry if I don't follow you. He says...knowingly! Francois, that's what you're here for! OK. Thank you for your beautiful demonstration. /F.C./ No problem. Anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Hello Chris, Using your definition of alteration it would appear that the film clip you posted is unaltered. It seems to be a simple stop frame animation where the camera stopped, the physical content of the scene is changed and the film is started to record the new physical reality. When the film is played back it appears as though a mysterious transformation has occurred in a moment but what the film doesn't show is the time interval where an assistant stepped into the scene and removed the the fake nose. It's not the film that has been altered in this instance, it's the scene that's changed. The film maker plays on your assumption that filming was uninterrupted and in real time. But no frame was altered, moved or added - that's exactly what the camera saw while it was recording. Assuming that the motorcade wasn't stopped along Elm to add or remove elements from the scene it's hard to see how stop frame animation could have played a role in the Zapruder film. Best to you, Jerry Jerry if a single frame was removed from that 1928 film then that means that its altered Im positive that the 1928 film has had many frames removed Just like the limo turn being taken out of the Z-film If a frame(s) have been removed that means the film was altered Hello Dean, I was referring to the clip Chris posted. It's obvious that clip was a stop frame animation so no part of the film was added or subtracted or changed - it was the scene which was changed between frames. I haven't commented on the entire 1928 film because I'm no expert in 1928 movie technology - although most of it looks to me like simple stop frame animation, not alteration in the sense of using composites or mattes to create images of things that didn't physically exist or happen or retouching frame content to change the images in the frame. Frankly, I find the entire thread kind of bizarre. Everyone (I think) knows that images have been retouched and composited since the very start of photography. The fact that someone in 1928 could use black and white professional negative film in a controlled studio environment to produce some limited special effects which look pretty good on youtube - that doesn't tell me anything about what's required to create a color positive 8mm film strip of a changing outdoor scene that's good enough to fool the guy who invented the film when he's examining the original with a 20x microscope. It's sort of like saying having the technology to produce a gatling gun means you can automatically produce an M16. Best to you, Jerry It's sort of like saying having the technology to produce a gatling gun means you can automatically produce an M16. Precisely! Er, which came first again? Bernie, It was a late night analogy so I'm not married to it. Plus, firearms history doesn't seem to be your forte. How about this instead? It's like saying that since Walt Disney animated Mickey Mouse in 1928 it was possible to produce Avatar in 1963. Whatever analogy you prefer, the point is that concepts are around for a long time - a lot earlier that 1928. The real question is what specific techniques and tools are required to realize a specific instance of a general idea. Nothing in the 1928 film speaks to what's technically required to generate a highly plausible Z film. Best to you, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Hi Jerry, Yes, the clip I provided was unaltered, I just slowed it down a bit for others. I still tend to believe, it is predominately a matter of frame extraction. I would use these two gifs as an example. Can you tell which one has a frame extracted, comparing them to each other. First without looking at the frame numbers and then looking. thanks, chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Why do you think that? Who knows. Its just baseless speuclation like your original claim. And just like yours its meanningless. Craig is speculating?! The sky must be falling! Dean, I used the ABSURD the illustrate the ABSURD. Clearly, like most things, the point was LOST on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Hi Jerry, Yes, the clip I provided was unaltered, I just slowed it down a bit for others. I still tend to believe, it is predominately a matter of frame extraction. I would use these two gifs as an example. Can you tell which one has a frame extracted, comparing them to each other. First without looking at the frame numbers and then looking. thanks, chris Chris, Nice demonstration! Couldn't see it in real time. Frame by frame (without looking at the numbers)I was able to spot it but only because (for my own, strange reasons) I've studied the white paper on the DP infield so I picked up the extra long hop. But even with that knowledge it took me a while. I think it's generally impossible to pick up a missing frame in real time because the duration falls beneath the perception threshold. However, we're studying the film frame by frame where the motion of background objects becomes more apparent if you look closely. It seems to me it would be very difficult to just snip out frames and hope no one noticed the background accelerating. I think you'd have to change the background in the remaining frames in order to avoid the appearance of sudden bursts of speed - but maybe that's where you going with this :>)? Best to you Chris. As always, well done. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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