Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water

[Chris Davidson]

According to the Life magazine article, Connally believed he was struck at frame 234.

There is a big difference between "pushing the brake pedal to the floor" and using the brake pedal as a brace as "you push it to the floor".

Greer's Z film action's speak louder than his words.

chris

To start with ... Connally said that he could see he was shot in Z234 ... Connally didn't have a stabilized in motion view to study and go by. I did not understand him to say which frame the bullet had struck him.

I thought everyone knew how to see peoples testimonies on the assassination ... here is the link http://mcadams.posc....du/russ/wit.htm You will find Greer's report and testimony there.

And Green never put the brake pedal to the floor on Elm Street in my view for if he had done so - the car would have come to a dead halt.

Bill

Bill,

Life Magazine Nov25, 1966 Page 43 First Sentence:

"Connally believes, as nearly as he can judge it, that the bullet struck him in the 234th frame."

A little farther down:

"He might, Connally admits, possibly have been hit a frame or two earlier but no more."

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Robert,

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

Where in his WC testimony does he refer to the second noise as a shot?

He heard a noise and heard it again.

Thought they were motorcycle backfires.

It did not affect me, he states.

Sure it did.

He quickly adjusts his steering position and braces against the back of his seat.

It's in the film right after Connally being shot around 234.

Greer's testimony is worthless.

He doesn't say anything worthwhile.

Sounds like he was coached to dumb it down.

chris

[Robert Harris]

Robert,

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong.

Where in his WC testimony does he refer to the second noise as a shot?

He heard a noise and heard it again.

Thought they were motorcycle backfires.

It did not affect me, he states.

Sure it did.

He quickly adjusts his steering position and braces against the back of his seat.

It's in the film right after Connally being shot around 234.

Greer's testimony is worthless.

He doesn't say anything worthwhile.

Sounds like he was coached to dumb it down.

chris

Then forget his testimony and just watch him - and the others in the limo. But rather than focus on a tiny motion of his hand on the steering wheel, watch his infinitely more visible and dramatic reactions which took place as he panicked and slowed the limousine.

His almost inhuman turns to the front and back began at 291-292.

Jackie's reaction began at 290.

Kellerman's at 291-292.

Mrs. Connally's at 291-292.

And Zapruder's began at 290-291 per Dr. Alvarez.

All five reactions began within the same three frames or 1/6th of a second.

Greer said the second and third were almost simultaneous.

Mrs. Connally heard two shots, both after she looked back and saw JFK in distress, which happened at about 258.

Mrs. Kennedy said she heard two shots after John Connally began to shout "Oh, no, no, no", which he began at 242. Mrs. Connally said the same.

Roy Kellerman said the final shots came in a "flurry" and that the second and third were much closer than the first two.

The WC reported that "most" witnesses said the final shots were closely bunched, in spite of the fact that they contradicted their own theories.

The evidence for a shot at 285 can be clearly seen by the reactions of the limo passengers and confirmed by the statements of those same people and the people throughout Dealey Plaza.

The evidence for this shot is overwhelming.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

Life Magazine Nov25, 1966 Page 43 First Sentence:

"Connally believes, as nearly as he can judge it, that the bullet struck him in the 234th frame."

A little farther down:

"He might, Connally admits, possibly have been hit a frame or two earlier but no more."

chris

That's right, Chris ... the best he can judge when looking at still images. He also mentions the grimace seen on the President's face while somehow missing his grimace at Z224. However, he did a good job considering the way he had to make his determination ... he was within less than a half of a second of the transfer of momentum and when he grimaced on film.

On page 43 of that interview, Connally said that at frame 234 that he can begin to see himself slump and that appears to be how he assessed when he was hit. In the next sentences he says this about what he see's in Z234/Z235, "I don't think there is any question that my reaction to being shot begins in this time sequence". He gave himself a possible frame or two earlier as to when the bullet would have hit him ... he was not asked what data he used to make such a guess as to how long after a stimulus occurrs that the brain processes it and then sends a signal to the body so to react to it.

There have been threads that discuss reaction times to a stimulus. I chose to go a step further and looked for when the 'transfer of energy' of the bullet strike to his shoulder would have occurred. It was between Z223 and Z224 that Connally grimaced and was the first frame exchange that showed his right shoulder instantly being driven forward and downward. I certainly understand why Connally thought what he did when using still images. I wonder if he had been shown a stabilized slow motion view of the event if he would have thought differently? Below is a slow motion frame by frame sequence showing what I deem to be nothing else but the point of impact of what Connally described as feeling like a closed fist hitting him in the back and the reaction that followed.

Bill

Edited November 24, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Greer's testimony is worthless.

He doesn't say anything worthwhile.

Sounds like he was coached to dumb it down.

chris

How can one 'dumb something down' when the Zapruder film supports what he has said?

Another thing that hasn't been considered from what I have read is that with Greer looking rearward that second time .... could he have seen Agent Hill racing for the car and was hesitating to allow Hill to reach them? I got that impression and it wasn't until the kill shot hit its mark that Greer didn't wait any longer and sped away while almost leaving Hill to almost not get onto the bumper of the limo.

Bill

Edited November 24, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

Except on the previous page, Connally says as they come out from behind the sign, he was turned to his right.

He then turned back again, he says he knows he made that turn to the left before he was shot.

He says you can see the grimace in JFK's face, you can't see it in his.

He's viewing what appears to be 4x5 transparencies with who knows what power-magnification loupe.

My guess is better quality stuff than we are privileged to see.

chris

[Bill Miller]

Mrs. Connally heard two shots, both after she looked back and saw JFK in distress, which happened at about 258.

Robert,

So not to look like a dope, I would cut out Nellie's comments in the video you keep showing because she contradicts the propaganda you are trying to sell. You see, JFK's hands rise up to his face before Z230 and Nellie says in your video that she witnessed the President do this.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Bill,

Except on the previous page, Connally says as they come out from behind the sign, he was turned to his right.

He then turned back again, he says he knows he made that turn to the left before he was shot.

chris

You are correct ... he has said that he was in the process of turning back left to a point that he was just about facing forward when he was hit.

Here the right shoulder drops drastically causing the left shoulder to rise. It was immediately in the same sequence that followed that Connally recoiled to his right which he and Nellie both said it came after being hit in the shoulder.

Bill

Edited November 24, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Mrs. Connally heard two shots, both after she looked back and saw JFK in distress, which happened at about 258.

Robert,

So not to look like a dope, I would cut out Nellie's comments in the video you keep showing because she contradicts the propaganda you are trying to sell. You see, JFK's hands rise up to his face before Z230 and Nellie says in your video that she witnessed the President do this.

Bill Miller

Your refusal to accept her earliest testimony is irresponsible and shameful - as if you actually believe that her memory improved after a decade or more passed. You need to stop looking for citations solely because they support your argument, and start seeking reality.

But if you actually intend to continue with this idiotic argument then you need to tell us very specifically, why you think her memory improved over the years?

Even worse, you ignore John Connally's statements made twice under oath and captured in first hand video and film, in favor of a solitary, second hand citation from a reporter who obviously misquoted him.

How can you care so little about truth, that you would deliberately misrepresent some of the most important witnesses in this case?

And when you can't find some isolated contradiction, forty years after the event, you just arbitrarily dismiss the most important parts of these testimonies, like Mrs. Connally's clear statement that she heard that second shot AFTER she looked back and saw JFK in distress - and her repeated statement that she never looked to the rear again after she heard that shot.

You seem to want to move it back to 223, which contradicts everything the Connally's said and everything we see them do in the Zfilm, not to mention the testimonies and visible actions of the other passengers in the limo.

And then you arbitrarily dismiss the statements of professional lip readers who confirmed that John Connally said "Oh, no, no, no" beginning at frame 242, under the pretense that they did not have a good enough version of the Zapruder film to see the man's mouth moving.

These are pathetically lame excuses. You just go right down the line, trying to distort or dismiss a long list of facts that prove you are wrong.

I have discussed and debated this issue for years, against some of the most fanatical nutters you ever saw. They had Phd's from places like Berkely and Harvard and frequently tried to argue that the Connally's were full of crap, but NOT ONE was dishonest enough to take the positions you are trying to assume.

What is even more shameful is that your teammates sit there without expressing a single word of disgust as you attempt to distort your country's historical record.

[Robin Unger]

JFK the movie GIF

Just a few of the things i noticed in this GIF

(1) Occupants of the limo appear to be thrown forward.

(2) Connally leaning back into Nellie as he continually talks to any one who will listen.

(3) The Greer double head turn.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Dean Hagerman]

Bill is an excellent researcher, I have always enjoyed his posts. (even the ones I dont agree with)

I have really enjoyed watching him take you apart in the same way that Jimmy D took DVP apart a month or so ago.

Robert I have followed your different theories over the years and I must say that the shot at 285 and the blinds cutting and window smashing assassin have really lowered my opinion of you as a researcher.

The fact that you claim that those who are against you are on some sort of team is just ludicrous.

Do you think we all make a conference call every morning and discuss how to go about "attacking" you online?

Maybe you think Duncan, Martin and Robin all fly into the USA once a week and meets up with everyone that disagrees with you?

Robert time to switch to Decaf, either that or start drinking some stiff drinks, I suggest Captain Morgan Spiced Rum and Egg Nog, its perfect for this time of year.

Just relax Robert, nobody is out to "get" you, that I can promise you.

[Robert Harris]

JFK the movie GIF

Just a few of the things i noticed in this GIF

(1) Occupants of the limo appear to be thrown forward.

(2) Connally leaning back into Nellie as he continually talks to any one who will listen.

(3) The Greer double head turn.

Why do you post comments and then evade every statement I make which proves you are wrong?

Why is it more important to support the "team" than to get this stuff right?

You cannot possibly be stupid enough to think that the slowdown caused those reactions. ALL the reactions began in the range of 290-292. The slowdown began AFTER that, at about 294. THE SLOWDOWN WAS PART OF THE REACTIONS, NOT THE CAUSE OF THE REACTIONS.

What is the point of making all these bogus arguments?

Edited November 25, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

What is even more shameful is that your teammates sit there without expressing a single word of disgust as you attempt to distort your country's historical record.

Bill does not have any team mates in this thread, this is all a figment of your zany imagination, and a clear sign of your deeply ingrained insecurity when dealing with superior researchers, and particularly one who is as thorough and meticulous as Bill Miller.

As mainly an obsever of your "debate" I as an individual have no need to express a single word of disgust towards anything Bill has posted in this thread, simply because he is 100% correct in his argument, and is doing a fine job of demolishing your shot at Zapruder frame 285 agenda driven nonsense all by himself.

I must confess, Bill's demolition of your poorly presented case is painful to read, but not half as painful as listening to this.

I see you found Cosmosity. But you grabbed the wrong song. This is the one you and your buds need to be listening to:

[Robert Harris]

JFK the movie GIF

Just a few of the things i noticed in this GIF

(1) Occupants of the limo appear to be thrown forward.

(2) Connally leaning back into Nellie as he continually talks to any one who will listen.

(3) The Greer double head turn.

A couple other points:

In addition to the fact that the slowdown began AFTER the reactions, we can also confirm that this was not the result of inertia, for several good reasons.

First, the limo speed dropped from 12 to 8 mph, not nearly enough to throw anyone forward in the car. That fact is further confirmed by the lack of forward motion by either JFK or John Connally.

More importantly, the reactions of the other people were clearly, NOT the result of their bodies being tossed forward. These were ducking motions which take a much different form than bodies being tossed around by inertia. Look at Kellerman for example, and PLEASE don't try to tell me as Miller did, that he was grabbing the microphone and then decided to stick it in his ear for a third of a second

Obviously, Greer was not thrown forward either.

Jackie BTW, was not dropping her head in order to examine her husband's neck as skeptics try to argue after they forgot that they were claiming that she was thrown forward by the slowdown In fact, in the clearest Zapruder frames of her then, we can see that she was ducking and looking down and away from him.

These were reactions to a very loud noise, exactly as Alvarez said there was at precisely, frame 285. But this was not a siren. The same people who we see reacting, told us EXACTLY what they were hearing then and you know what it was as well as I do.

At some point you need to realize that getting this right is a thousand times more important than "winning" a debate.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Bill Miller]

Your refusal to accept her earliest testimony is irresponsible and shameful - as if you actually believe that her memory improved after a decade or more passed.

Nellie has always said that she saw her husband buckle and recoil to the shot ... its in her Commission testimony ... is it not!

Nellie Connally: "Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

Also, her Life interview also makes this clear and it was done 3 years after the assassination JFK.

And when you can't find some isolated contradiction, forty years after the event, you just arbitrarily dismiss the most important parts of these testimonies, like Mrs. Connally's clear statement that she heard that second shot AFTER she looked back and saw JFK in distress - and her repeated statement that she never looked to the rear again after she heard that shot.

Like I said before ... she listed several things in sequence that she had witnessed and that cannot be ignored. She may have looked back and not remembered it ... one would be a fool to not consider that her memory won't be exact on every point. However, the sequence she gives of her husbands reactions to being shot cannot be understated and is why so many people disagree with your reckless claims. The one time that you show her looking back ... who knows what she is looking at ... was it JFK or to see from where the shots are coming from? Nellie's wording of not looking back again refers to her seeing the President and you seem to have put too much in what you think she meant by this and this is why she and her husband did the interview with Life Magazine so to put an end to boobs second guessing what she meant about certain things.

You seem to want to move it back to 223, which contradicts everything the Connally's said and everything we see them do in the Zfilm, not to mention the testimonies and visible actions of the other passengers in the limo.

The transfer of energy is a science. To date you have not offered a shred of rebuttal as to why Connally's shoulder was shoved forward and downward at the rate it is seen on the Zapruder film as he makes a noticeable grimace at the same time. And if you look close ... you might see that Connally's being hit in the right shoulder caused his body to twist LEFTWARD towards Nellie ... this is called a primary reaction. Connally then recoiled back to his left in the direction of the wounding ... this is called a secondary reaction.

One more thing I have withheld and now its time to mention it ... Gary Murr did a study on Connally's clothing and are you aware that his test showed it to take around 5 seconds for the blood to soak through the material. Apply this to the clips I have presented.

And then you arbitrarily dismiss the statements of professional lip readers who confirmed that John Connally said "Oh, no, no, no" beginning at frame 242, under the pretense that they did not have a good enough version of the Zapruder film to see the man's mouth moving.

This is a hoot! Did not someone post that you have that wrong and that it was Connally saying they were all going to be killed? And did you not know that Connally said that he uttered 'Oh no, no, no ... during that head glance to his right to see if he could see the President.

I have discussed and debated this issue for years, against some of the most fanatical nutters you ever saw. They had Phd's from places like Berkely and Harvard and frequently tried to argue that the Connally's were full of crap, but NOT ONE was dishonest enough to take the positions you are trying to assume.

What is even more shameful is that your teammates sit there without expressing a single word of disgust as you attempt to distort your country's historical record.

Would those be the same PhDs who didn't see JFK smiling and waving after you wrongly said he had made a fist from being hit in the head with asphalt as the limo passed through Tina Towner's film??? You are like the Baghdad Bob of the JFK field. So LNrs didn't agree with you and now we know that many CTs do not agree with you as well.

And you know what you can do with your 'dishonest' accusations - don't you! Only a fool would think that just because someone doesn't agree with him that the other party must be being dishonest.

Bill Miller

Edited November 25, 2010 by Bill Miller