Lee and Me

[Jack White]

My opinion is that LHO is probably inserted in the picnic photo. Its provenance is unknown.

Jack

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/glimpse/ferrie.html

FRONTLINE obtained this photograph from John B. Ciravolo, Jr., of New Orleans. Ciravolo was also a C.A.P. member in 1955 and says he was in the same unit with Oswald and was standing right in front of him in the photo. Ciravolo identified David Ferrie, while former C.A.P. cadet Tony Atzenhoffer, also of New Orleans, identified Oswald and Ferrie in the photograph, and Colin Hammer, who says he served with both men in the C.A.P., also identified both in the photograph.

FRONTLINE located the photographer, Chuck Frances, who says he took the picture for the C.A.P. Francis also said that when he was interviewed by the FBI, he told them Oswald and Ferrie knew each other, but he did not tell them about the photograph. The executor of Ferrie's estate, as well as Ferrie's godson, also picked out Ferrie.

After the Kennedy assassination, David Ferrie told investigators he never knew Lee Oswald. "I never heard David Ferrie mention Lee Harvey Oswald," said Layton Martens, a former C.A.P. Cadet and a close friend to Ferrie until Ferrie's death in 1967.

But when FRONTLINE showed Martens the photograph, he identified Ferrie. "It does indicate the possibity of an associaton," said Martens, "but if and to what extent is another question. Of course we've all been photographed with people, and we could be presented with photographs later and asked, 'Well, do you know this person? Obviously, you must because you've been photographed with them.' Well no, it's just a photograph, and I don't know that person. It's just someone who happened to be in the picture."

"As dramatic as the discovery of this photograph is after thirty years," says Michael Sullivan, FRONTLINE executive producer for special projects, "one should be cautious in ascribing its meaning. The photograph does give much support to the eyewitnesses who say they saw Ferrie and Oswald together in the C.A.P., and it makes Ferrie's denials that he ever knew Oswald less credible. But it does not prove that the two men were with each other in 1963, nor that they were involved in a conspiracy to kill the president."

There are TWO different versions of this photo print. The provenance of both prints is unknown. I looked and cannot find

my two copies nor my studies regarding them. The studies likely were three computers ago or lost in a computer crash.

I strongly believe that LHO was added to the photo. For example, just look at the gray scale. LHO is the only person

with a WHITE t-shirt. His whole gray scale differs from the rest of the photo. Was he the only one with BLACK hair and

a BLACK belt, when no other blacks are in the picture?

Jack

Edited May 2, 2011 by Jack White

[Pamela Brown]

My opinion is that LHO is probably inserted in the picnic photo. Its provenance is unknown.

Jack

But what would be the purpose of that when the govt wants to cover up any connection between them?

[Stephen Roy]

Bob Vernon is an interesting character. He and I have had a few go-arounds on various things, but nevertheless, I concur with some of what he wrote here.

I had only a few brief conversations with Layton Martens. I asked him about the first Haslam book and Sherman and his comments were similar to those below: No lab or mice at 3330 (but he did have some mice earlier), no trace of Sherman by name or description. He said Ferrie was a confirmed misogynist who would be unlikely to work with a woman doctor. By the time I was looking for his comments on the Baker story, he was dead. Vernon's account of Ferrie hating Oschner and using drugstore chemicals is interesting.

As I've noted before, others who knew Ferrie have, likewise, been unable to recall mice/lab at 3330, Sherman or Baker (by name, description or pictures). Baker is now taking the line that Ferrie deliberately hid the lab/Sherman/Baker/Oswald from his friends (how convenient), but I find it hard to believe that people who hung-out there on a regular basis could have missed any trace of them. Some lived there, partied there, visited at odd times, and some even had unsupervised access to Ferrie's apartment. In my opinion, if there is a fatal flaw to Baker's story, this is it.

I've heard the story of Ferrie wanting to marry Martens' mother. As I posted years ago, Ferrie did have certain relationships with women, including a young girl named Wanda, so it is not out of the question. (OTOH, Mrs. Martens also had some personal problems.)

It's also interesting that the Marcello people and the Oschners said they had no memory of her. I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

On the Sherman front: There is a bundle of new information coming, including new info about the crime scene and the police investigation; and info from two excellent sources (with a third in process) indicating that there was no linear particle accelerator at the hospital Haslam mentions.

I feel so conflicted about this. Part of me just wants to let Haslam and Baker do their thing, but part of me gets agitated when this unconfirmed stuff seeps out into the record of confirmed stuff, and when Haslam and Baker decline to discuss/debate in a true give and take.

Thanks for the post, Michael.

Stephen, I would be interested in your comments on this post.

The Real New Orleans and Judyth Vary Baker

A research report by Robert G. Vernon

August 28, 2004

The internet newsgroups have been diluted lately with the ramblings for and against a woman called Judyth Vary Baker and her claims that she “knew and loved Lee Harvey Oswald.” She claims to have had prior knowledge of the death of JFK and she was recently featured on a British documentary by Nigel Turner. She says a book is coming out on her.

While some of the top JFK researchers and also major US media have denounced the lady as being “delusional”, I believe there is much more to her story than meets the eye. Allow me to explain:

When Judyth’s incredible story first surfaced, I’m not sure of the exact date but I believe it was 1999 or earlier, I called Layton Martens, an old friend of mine from New Orleans. Some of the JFK researchers will recall Layton as being involved with David Ferrie back in the 1960s. Layton was also branded as a “homosexual,” which was highly insulting to him and he was ready to sue the people that branded him as such. To my knowledge, Layton was not a homosexual. Layton passed away on March 18, 2000, a few months after I had last spoken to him. I had met his wife once in the 80s at Layton’s French Quarter apartment on Bourbon Street, but I have never seen her or talked to her since. I think he has a brother but I don’t know him.

I knew Layton extremely well. He and I worked together on the Louisiana Music Association, the Louisiana Music Commission and on several recording projects he did for the Spirit of New Orleans Brass Band. I mixed one of the brass band albums for him at a tiny little studio in New Orleans in the mid 1980s. Layton was also an accomplished actor and radio personality in New Orleans. He appeared in many movies including Oliver Stone’s “JFK.”

I worked with and knew Layton for years before I learned about his friendship with David Ferrie and that he had been interviewed by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison back in the 60s. In 1993, I began to communicate with him about the JFK assassination and his knowledge of it, if any.

Because we were longtime friends (over 25 years), he slowly began to open up to me and he laid out a tremendous amount of knowledge before me from 1993 until he died.

Some of the things that I learned from Layton are:

Layton was in the Civil Air Patrol and that he was closely associated with David Ferrie until Ferrie’s death in 1967. He and Ferrie were good friends. Ferrie wanted to marry Layton’s mother. He told me about Ferrie “dabbling” with mice and how the guy thought he could find a cure for cancer by mixing drug store bought chemicals together and injecting them into the mice. Layton laughed about this and told me he was amazed that Ferrie even had an interest in cancer for Ferrie had no training or background in science at all. Layton told me that he felt sorry for the mice because all Ferrie was really doing was making them “sick.”

When I last spoke to Layton a few months before his death, I asked Layton if he knew a Judyth Vary Baker. He said he did not. I asked Layton if he had ever heard her name before and specifically if Ferrie had ever mentioned her. He thought for a while and told me no. I asked him if it was possible that Ferrie could have known this lady without Layton’s knowledge. He told me that anything was possible but that he doubted it because he and Ferrie were very close and that he (Layton) had known all of Ferrie’s friends, the men and the women. I asked Layton if Ferrie knew or had ever mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald. Layton told me the same thing that he told the producers of Frontline, and that is Ferrie never mentioned Oswald to him. Layton did tell me that he had been shown a picture of Ferrie and Oswald standing in a line at a Civil Air Patrol training event but he was sure they didn’t know each other for Layton felt that if Ferrie had of known Oswald in the 69s, that Layton would have known him, too.

I asked Layton if Ferrie was involved with Dr. Oschner for it is common knowledge that Garrison had targeted Oschner with regard to possible involvement in the JFK hit. Layton told me that Ferrie hated Oschner but he was not sure why. He told me it had something to do with Oschner messing up a deal that involved a United Fruit Company or something of that nature. Layton wasn’t clear what had happened. I asked him why he knew Ferrie hated Oschner and Layton gave me a long list of New Orleans people that Ferrie hated and always talked bad about, according to Layton. The list was massive, maybe 10 or 11 names and the only names I can recall were Mayor Morrison, Oschner, and Jake DiMaggio (I knew Jake, too). There were other names he mentioned that I did not recognize and do not recall.

I asked Layton if he had ever heard of or known Svare Forsland. My reason for this is that Forsland had told me in the late 1980s that Garrison and Clay Shaw had gotten into an argument and a fist fight over a young boy at the New Orleans Athletic Club in the 1960s and that was why Garrison had indicted Shaw. Layton had no knowledge of this event and, as I do, doubted it ever happened.

As Judyth Baker’s story heated up and more and more stuff began to surface on her, I tried to call Layton again and that is when I found out Layton had died.

A couple of years later, in the fall of 2002, I had Judyth Baker’s story pushed on me by a former associate, Wim Dankbaar. I told the man I wanted nothing to do with her but he insisted that I look at her story. I reluctantly agreed. After catching her in falsehood after falsehood, and my posts on this are on JFK related newsgroups throughout the world, I refused to allow her taped interview to be used in a program I was producing at the time.

But it goes much deeper than that. You see, I’m from Louisiana, born and raised there and there is not much I don’t know about Louisiana and New Orleans particularly from the years 1960 through 1990, the year I moved away. I also know the Mafia in New Orleans. Yes, I met Carlos Marcello and I knew him, not well, but I knew him and talked with him. I also knew his brother Joe and not just from him owning the nightclub by the Lake but because Joe and I were both dating a couple of Playboy bunnies that lived in Fat City (Metairie, La) in the mid 1960s. Mr. Joe and I used to “bump bellies” in the hallway when he was coming and going as was I (no pun intended). We talked over coffee many mornings. I saw him again in later years when he ran Lenfant’s the club by the lake that I mentioned. I also knew and know now Sammy and “Little Vincent” Marcello and I have met and briefly talked with little Carlos and peter Marcello but I do not know them. There are also lesser known “families” in New Orleans and I know many of them too. I won’t name any names for these folks are still alive and kicking. Let me get to the point: No one that I know in the New Orleans “family” community knows of or has ever heard of Judyth Vary Baker. If they had, I would know. I put “the word out.” Nothing came back.

A few days ago, I learned that this Baker woman was making claims about somehow being involved in the Edwin Edwards trial down in Baton Rouge back in 2000. I was amazed to find this out for I was not aware of it before. Not only do I know Edwin Edwards personally but I also know every single member of his family. I also know every single one of his lawyers. I called several of them over the past week. Not one of them – repeat NOT ONE - had any knowledge about a Judyth Vary Baker.

So what do we have here? A delusional woman? Possibly, I’m not a shrink so I don’t know, but I think there is more to her story. I believe she has perpetrated a hoax for money. Her “evidence” is scant, if any. Nothing in her story is very original and can all be found in books and on the Internet. The people she surrounds herself with, excluding a Howard Platzman and a Martin Shackleford, neither of whom have I met or do I know, are basically profiteers and have made no secret of it. I do think Platzman and Shackleford truly believe the lady but that’s their prerogative. I, too, have been fooled and duped before by people making claims about the JFK hit so I can understand.

But what I understand more than anything is that when it comes to people in New Orleans that are “in the know” and that have been “in the know” for 50 years, there is no one that knows or has ever heard of Judyth Vary Baker, even Dr. John Oschner who worked side by side with his father that Judyth claims to have worked for. For you see, Dr. Oschner has nothing to hide, there is no reason for him to lie. It is common knowledge in New Orleans of the roles his Dad and their work have played over the years, in cancer research, in CIA and government related activities, etc.

Dr. Oschner told me personally that he had never heard of her.

I wish that I had never heard of her either.

A note to Judyth Vary Baker: feel free to make any comments you wish regarding this document.

Robert G. Vernon has been in the entertainment industry for 51 years. He is a Billboard chart producer of music and a winner of the ACE Award for Fats Domino and Friends, the most watched special in Cinemax history. Vernon was in charge of media and a member of the investigative team that busted Jimmy Swaggart. He is currently producing a program for video called “JFK: HOAXES” and it will be made available to broadcasters in November of 2004.

Contact: bobkat2000@comcast.net

Edited May 2, 2011 by Stephen Roy

[Pamela Brown]

Steven Roy said:

I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

Why are you attaching my name to a misrepresentation of my position?

I do not believe or disbelieve witnesses. That includes Judyth. I do not care what people think about Judyth but that they think for themselves.

In addition, as you have posted to Judyth threads on aaj, you are surely aware of the negative treatment I am currently receiving from Judyth, who seems to also be making things up about what I have said, circulating them to 'undisclosed recipients' and then asking 'who will believe you now'?

Even Judyth does not think I 'believe' her.

[Stephen Roy]

Steven Roy said:

I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

Why are you attaching my name to a misrepresentation of my position?

I do not believe or disbelieve witnesses. That includes Judyth. I do not care what people think about Judyth but that they think for themselves.

In addition, as you have posted to Judyth threads on aaj, you are surely aware of the negative treatment I am currently receiving from Judyth, who seems to also be making things up about what I have said, circulating them to 'undisclosed recipients' and then asking 'who will believe you now'?

Even Judyth does not think I 'believe' her.

My apologies for wooly writing. I did NOT intend to imply that you believe that you have found the crucial witness. I simply meant, despite you having an orientation Vernon might disagree with, that I am convinced that you are sincere in your belief. Word processors: I wrote the Shack/Platz sentence, then got up to do work for an hour, and came back and added the reference to you. It came across wrong and I apologize. We OK now?

You do have my empathy for what's going on with you and Baker, despite my not knowing the details. Baker can be touchy and insist on complete loyalty, and lash out when she doesn't get it. I think I now understand why she does this.

[Michael Hogan]

....I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

On the Sherman front: There is a bundle of new information coming, including new info about the crime scene and the police investigation; and info from two excellent sources (with a third in process) indicating that there was no linear particle accelerator at the hospital Haslam mentions.

I feel so conflicted about this. Part of me just wants to let Haslam and Baker do their thing, but part of me gets agitated when this unconfirmed stuff seeps out into the record of confirmed stuff, and when Haslam and Baker decline to discuss/debate in a true give and take.

Thanks for your comments. Actually, I think Vernon's characterization of Shackelford and Platzman is in agreement with yours. Take a look at it again and tell me if that's so, please.

Barb Junkkarinen has does some excellent research on particle accelerators (and much, much more) in these threads. The fact that Haslam claims his high school physics teacher told the class about the existence of a particle accelerator at a medical facility in New Orleans was a serious gaffe on Haslam's part. It's a perfect example of how Dr. Mary's Monkey begins to fall apart when read carefully. I've read virtually all of your EF comments on the subjects of Baker and Haslam and agree with almost all of them. I appreciate your almost understated approach to what is known and what is not.

Like you, part of me wants to forget about Baker and Haslam. Their stories have garnered far more attention than warranted, in my opinion. It was Jim Fetzer that latched on to Haslam's book few a weeks after he started the JVB Exile thread and his strident attacks on those that didn't agree with all of his assessments re Haslam's book that has kept me interested in this subject. Fetzer called Dr. Mary's Monkey one of the most scholarly and well-researched books for the general public that he has read. He needs to read more books.

Stephen, I've appreciated your contributions to the Education Forum, and if and when your book on Ferrie gets published, I look forward to buying and reading it.

[Stephen Roy]

....I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

On the Sherman front: There is a bundle of new information coming, including new info about the crime scene and the police investigation; and info from two excellent sources (with a third in process) indicating that there was no linear particle accelerator at the hospital Haslam mentions.

I feel so conflicted about this. Part of me just wants to let Haslam and Baker do their thing, but part of me gets agitated when this unconfirmed stuff seeps out into the record of confirmed stuff, and when Haslam and Baker decline to discuss/debate in a true give and take.

Thanks for your comments. Actually, I think Vernon's characterization of Shackelford and Platzman is in agreement with yours. Take a look at it again and tell me if that's so, please.

Barb Junkkarinen has does some excellent research on particle accelerators (and much, much more) in these threads. The fact that Haslam claims his high school physics teacher told the class about the existence of a particle accelerator at a medical facility in New Orleans was a serious gaffe on Haslam's part. It's a perfect example of how Dr. Mary's Monkey begins to fall apart when read carefully. I've read virtually all of your EF comments on the subjects of Baker and Haslam and agree with almost all of them. I appreciate your almost understated approach to what is known and what is not.

Like you, part of me wants to forget about Baker and Haslam. Their stories have garnered far more attention than warranted, in my opinion. It was Jim Fetzer that latched on to Haslam's book few a weeks after he started the JVB Exile thread and his strident attacks on those that didn't agree with all of his assessments re Haslam's book that has kept me interested in this subject. Fetzer called Dr. Mary's Monkey one of the most scholarly and well-researched books for the general public that he has read. He needs to read more books.

Stephen, I've appreciated your contributions to the Education Forum, and if and when your book on Ferrie gets published, I look forward to buying and reading it.

Thanks for the kind words. The Vernon thing about Martin/Howard was that they "are basically profiteers." I disagree with him on that.

[Michael Hogan]

Thanks for the kind words. The Vernon thing about Martin/Howard was that they "are basically profiteers." I disagree with him on that.

Not to belabor the point, but below is the excerpt of Vernon's post. I have italicized the key part. The way I read it, he is excluding them from being profiteers.

So what do we have here? A delusional woman? Possibly, I’m not a shrink so I don’t know, but I think there is more to her story. I believe she has perpetrated a hoax for money. Her “evidence” is scant, if any. Nothing in her story is very original and can all be found in books and on the Internet. The people she surrounds herself with, excluding a Howard Platzman and a Martin Shackleford, neither of whom have I met or do I know, are basically profiteers and have made no secret of it. I do think Platzman and Shackleford truly believe the lady but that’s their prerogative. I, too, have been fooled and duped before by people making claims about the JFK hit so I can understand.

[Pamela Brown]

Thanks for the kind words. The Vernon thing about Martin/Howard was that they "are basically profiteers." I disagree with him on that.

Not to belabor the point, but below is the excerpt of Vernon's post. I have italicized the key part. The way I read it, he is excluding them from being profiteers.

So what do we have here? A delusional woman? Possibly, I’m not a shrink so I don’t know, but I think there is more to her story. I believe she has perpetrated a hoax for money. Her “evidence” is scant, if any. Nothing in her story is very original and can all be found in books and on the Internet. The people she surrounds herself with, excluding a Howard Platzman and a Martin Shackleford, neither of whom have I met or do I know, are basically profiteers and have made no secret of it. I do think Platzman and Shackleford truly believe the lady but that’s their prerogative. I, too, have been fooled and duped before by people making claims about the JFK hit so I can understand.

Based on my limited involvement with Martin and Howard I also do not think they had any sort of a profit motive. At the same time, Martin, who was well-established as a researcher before he encountered Judyth, could have been much tougher in vetting her statements prior to giving her any public endorsement. He just seemed mesmerized at the thought of unearthing the Holy Grail of the assassination. He has, of course, paid dearly for his sloppy vetting.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Steven Roy said:

I do disagree with Vernon's characterization of Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman; I think they honestly believed that they found the crucial witness to Oswald's time in New Orleans. I came to disagree with them. (I think Pamela is sincere but wrong, also.)

Why are you attaching my name to a misrepresentation of my position?

I do not believe or disbelieve witnesses. That includes Judyth. I do not care what people think about Judyth but that they think for themselves.

In addition, as you have posted to Judyth threads on aaj, you are surely aware of the negative treatment I am currently receiving from Judyth, who seems to also be making things up about what I have said, circulating them to 'undisclosed recipients' and then asking 'who will believe you now'?

Even Judyth does not think I 'believe' her.

My apologies for wooly writing. I did NOT intend to imply that you believe that you have found the crucial witness. I simply meant, despite you having an orientation Vernon might disagree with, that I am convinced that you are sincere in your belief. Word processors: I wrote the Shack/Platz sentence, then got up to do work for an hour, and came back and added the reference to you. It came across wrong and I apologize. We OK now?

You do have my empathy for what's going on with you and Baker, despite my not knowing the details. Baker can be touchy and insist on complete loyalty, and lash out when she doesn't get it. I think I now understand why she does this.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree with your assessment of the treatment of anyone who in Judyth's eyes is less than a devoted sycophant. A few times since January I have wondered how those who survived Jonestown felt, then just put that thought down to raw nerves.

[Stephen Roy]

Thanks for the kind words. The Vernon thing about Martin/Howard was that they "are basically profiteers." I disagree with him on that.

Not to belabor the point, but below is the excerpt of Vernon's post. I have italicized the key part. The way I read it, he is excluding them from being profiteers.

So what do we have here? A delusional woman? Possibly, I’m not a shrink so I don’t know, but I think there is more to her story. I believe she has perpetrated a hoax for money. Her “evidence” is scant, if any. Nothing in her story is very original and can all be found in books and on the Internet. The people she surrounds herself with, excluding a Howard Platzman and a Martin Shackleford, neither of whom have I met or do I know, are basically profiteers and have made no secret of it. I do think Platzman and Shackleford truly believe the lady but that’s their prerogative. I, too, have been fooled and duped before by people making claims about the JFK hit so I can understand.

Wow! Time for me to up the prescription on my glasses. I completely misread that, and I'm embarassed. Three times, I misread it.

[Stephen Roy]

You do have my empathy for what's going on with you and Baker, despite my not knowing the details. Baker can be touchy and insist on complete loyalty, and lash out when she doesn't get it. I think I now understand why she does this.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree with your assessment of the treatment of anyone who in Judyth's eyes is less than a devoted sycophant. A few times since January I have wondered how those who survived Jonestown felt, then just put that thought down to raw nerves.

One last quick observation on Baker's behavior, something I have felt for some time now: I have never encountered a witness who behaves as Baker behaves.

To quote Dr. Henry Lee: "Something wrong."

Edited May 3, 2011 by Stephen Roy

[Pamela Brown]

You do have my empathy for what's going on with you and Baker, despite my not knowing the details. Baker can be touchy and insist on complete loyalty, and lash out when she doesn't get it. I think I now understand why she does this.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree with your assessment of the treatment of anyone who in Judyth's eyes is less than a devoted sycophant. A few times since January I have wondered how those who survived Jonestown felt, then just put that thought down to raw nerves.

One last quick observation on Baker's behavior, something I have felt for some time now: I have never encountered a witness who behaves as Baker behaves.

To quote Dr. Henry Lee: "Something wrong."

There is nothing about Judyth that seems to be comparable with other witnesses. For one thing, she wears a lot of hats. A witness usually has a statement about what they have personally seen and heard and that is that. Judyth has things she says were told to her, other things she has apparently researched and brought forth on her own, so her environment seems very complicated.

Also, Judyth is using a genre that creates more problems than it solves; that of a dramatic narrative. What would be normal tweaking and editing of any other such project becomes, when it involves a witness statement, tainted with the possibility of sanitizing and correcting.

Then, of course, the research community was not really given a chance to set up the hoops that anyone claiming to be the Holy Grail of the assassination would have to go through to gain those credentials. Instead, it was pretty much hit over the head with the promise of a 60 Minutes episode; a fait accompli, as it were. Of course, that didn't happen, but the effect of having her statements vetted at that level undermined what the community itself ought to have been able to accomplish.

[Glenn Viklund]

You do have my empathy for what's going on with you and Baker, despite my not knowing the details. Baker can be touchy and insist on complete loyalty, and lash out when she doesn't get it. I think I now understand why she does this.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree with your assessment of the treatment of anyone who in Judyth's eyes is less than a devoted sycophant. A few times since January I have wondered how those who survived Jonestown felt, then just put that thought down to raw nerves.

One last quick observation on Baker's behavior, something I have felt for some time now: I have never encountered a witness who behaves as Baker behaves.

To quote Dr. Henry Lee: "Something wrong."

That's exactly what I've been saying as well, "those who tell the truth does not behave the way Baker does". And that's because she is no "witness", nor is she telling the truth.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Based on my limited involvement with Martin and Howard I also do not think they had any sort of a profit motive. At the same time, Martin, who was well-established as a researcher before he encountered Judyth, could have been much tougher in vetting her statements prior to giving her any public endorsement. He just seemed mesmerized at the thought of unearthing the Holy Grail of the assassination. He has, of course, paid dearly for his sloppy vetting.

I have known Martin Shackelford since the THIRD DECADE CONFERENCE of 1991. When I last met him, at the 2003 Wecht conference in Pittsburgh,he shocked me when he told me he had been working with Judth. I had seen Judith in the MWKK video, and did not believe a word she said (including "a" and "the") but when we went to the restaurant Martin was spending money like a drunken sailor, which seemed out of character for a social worker on a limited budget.

I am not so sure that Martin was not motivated by the profit motive.