Tracing the Rifle

[Gil Jesus]

In 1958, Crescent Firearms purchased 500,000 rifles from the Italian

Government. The final shipment of those rifles ( 520 cartons ) left

Italy's port of Genoa after being identified as lot number 91594 and

arrived in the New York via the steamer Elettra Fassio on October 15,

1960.

The 520 cartons were removed and trucked by the Waterfront Transfer

Company to the Harborside Terminal, a bonded warehouse in New Jersey.

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As one can see, the CARTON NUMBERS are listed on the manifest. For

example, "3086/3094" means that all cartons numbered from 3086 thru

3094 inclusive were on this shipment. The third entry down, 3305/3436,

means that all cartons bearing numbers in that range were part of this

shipment, including the carton 3376, which contained rifle # C2766.

In fact, ALL of the cartons listed in the February 1963 shipment to

Klein's were part of this shipment.

The shipment was placed in storage and remained there for the next two

years.

This is where the paper trial for carton 3376 ends.

Fred Rupp was a federally-licensed gun dealer who had a contract with

Crescent Firearms to pick up rifles at the Harborside Warehouse and

inspect, clean, test-fire, repack and ship them to Crescent's retail

customers.

Klein's purchase order of 1/15/62 requested that 400 model 91TS rifles

( 36" troop specials ) be delivered in October, 1962.

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According to Harborside delivery order # 89238, Rupp removed the first

170 cartons on August 29, 1962.

A list of the numbers of the cartons removed was on the manifest.

CARTON 3376 WAS NOT AMONG THEM.

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Importers of rifles and gun dealers were required BY LAW to maintain a

list of SERIAL NUMBERS of the rifles they imported. Rupp was required

by law to keep a list of the serial numbers he removed from the

warehouse ( which he did on the 8/29/62 manifest ) and the name of the

retail customer he shipped them to. And Klein's was required to keep

the serial numbers of rifle they sold to retail customers. ( 7 H 371 )

During the month of October, 1962, Rupp removed 264 more rifles from

lot 91594.

90 on October 4th

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70 on October 16

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64 on October 24

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40 on October 31

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On all of the subsequent shipping manifests of the rifles removed from

Harborside Warehouse by Fred Rupp, THE LIST OF CARTONS NUMBERS IS

ABSENT, even though on the 10/24 manifest, it is clearly marked "list

numbers of cases shipped".

Rupp removed a total of 434 Mannlicher Carcano 91/38 rifles in the

month of October 1962 from the lot of 520 rifles ( 91594 ) belonging

to Crescent Firearms. He told the FBI that he kept no record of the

carton numbers or serial numbers of the rifles he removed from

Harborside. ( CD 7, pg. 180 ) In other words, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE

THAT CARTON 3376 WAS AMONG the 434 rifles removed by Rupp, even though

the FBI said it was.

The FBI's " tracking of the rifle " included unsigned and undated

documents and manifests which listed neither the serial numbers nor

the carton numbers.

One of particular note is Crescent Firearms invoice # 3178.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No.

3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in

this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you.......is there any way to

verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on

Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial

numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice

No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was

included in that shipment.

( 7 H 368 )

WHOA...WAIT A MINUTE...IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT !!!!!

If you look closely at invoice # 3178, you'll see that ALL OF THE

CARTON NUMBERS HAVE LITTLE CHECKS ABOVE THEM EXCEPT CARTON NUMBER

3376.

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That means that in verifying the carton numbers in that shipment, 3376

was never verified as being a part of that shipment.

[David Von Pein]

As usual, conspiracy theorists in the Anybody But Oswald fraternity are forever destined to chase their tails (while ignoring the best evidence) in their quest to exonerate a double-murderer named Lee Harvey.

Gil Jesus doesn't seem to care at all that the OTHER NINE CARTONS that were part of the Feb. '63 shipment of rifles from Crescent to Klein's are also NOT LISTED on the Fred Rupp document of 8/29/62.

So, if those other nine cartons aren't "faked" in some way, then isn't it fairly obvious that the tenth carton to go with those other nine is also a legitimate carton (#3376, the C2766 carton)?

Just because nobody has found a Harborside document that says "3376" (or the other NINE cartons in the Feb. shipment, for that matter) doesn't mean such a document never existed.

Of course, all of this wrangling about the shipping documents is totally immaterial and unimportant to begin with.

Why?

Because even if there were ZERO documents to verify the rifle transaction from Crescent to Klein's or from Klein's to Oswald....there would still be THE RIFLE ITSELF (C2766), with Oswald's own prints on it, staring you in the face every day from now till the end of time.

Nothing and no one will change the following facts:

The rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy is Mannlicher-Carcano #C2766, which is a gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63, and is a gun that had Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints and palmprint on it.

And there is no need for a shred of Klein's or Crescent or Harborside documentation in order to prove that the last paragraph I just wrote is the 100% truth.

But keep searching for those meaningless Harborside documents, Gil. Being the Anybody-But-Oswald charter member that you are, I'm sure that pretty soon you will have yourself convinced that Oswald's rifle never even existed AT ALL. It was merely a "hologram".

Edited February 20, 2011 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

No, Jimbo, to ignore the mountain of "Oswald Was Here" and "Oswald Did It" evidence and to pretend that ALL of the evidence against your prince, Oswald, was somehow faked, forged, planted, and/or manipulated is the silly thing to do.

Luckily, though, the Warren Commission was made up of people who could put the pieces together in a logical, coherent way....instead of demanding to see meaningless documents that stretch way back for years prior to the rifle even getting into the hands of Klein's Sporting Goods.

But, this is pure DiEugenio in action -- i.e., latch onto the chaff and toss the wheat in the trash can.

No wonder Jimbo still thinks Jim Garrison solved the case.

Unbelievable.

Edited February 20, 2011 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Oh you mean Garrison thought it was a conspiracy?

Garrison prosecuted a man that he knew damn well had nothing whatsoever to do with the asssassination of the President.

Naturally, that little fact of Garrison prosecuting an innocent man means nothing to the DiEugenios of the world.

Oh, that's right--Garrison somehow convinced DiEugenio that Shaw was guilty (despite no evidence of him plotting any murder at all).

And today just about everyone else here and abroad does also?

So what?

A whole bunch of kooks also think that NO PLANES AT ALL hit any buildings in Washington and New York on 9/11.

Ask 100 people who believe there was a conspiracy who Buell Frazier was? Or J.D. Tippit? Or Linnie Randle? Or Harold Norman? Or Howard Brennan?

I'd bet that 95 of those 100 people wouldn't have the foggiest idea who any of those people were?

Edited February 20, 2011 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

As usual, conspiracy theorists in the Anybody But Oswald fraternity are forever destined to chase their tails (while ignoring the best evidence) in their quest to exonerate a double-murderer named Lee Harvey.

Gil Jesus doesn't seem to care at all that the OTHER NINE CARTONS that were part of the Feb. '63 shipment of rifles from Crescent to Klein's are also NOT LISTED on the Fred Rupp document of 8/29/62.

So, if those other nine cartons aren't "faked" in some way, then isn't it fairly obvious that the tenth carton to go with those other nine is also a legitimate carton (#3376, the C2766 carton)?

Just because nobody has found a Harborside document that says "3376" (or the other NINE cartons in the Feb. shipment, for that matter) doesn't mean such a document never existed.

1. Produce it. Produce any document that says that carton 3376 was removed from Harborside Warehouse.

2. If you want to talk about the other nine cartons in the shipment, tell us why Crescent invoice 3178, the one the FBI used to "prove" that carton 3376 / rifle C2766 was part of the February shipment, shows that the "other nine" cartons in that shipment were checked off as being verified and the tenth, carton 3376 was not.

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IOW, carton 3376 was never verified as being part of that February shipment.

3. I never said that the other nine cartons in the shipment were fakes and I challenge you to go back to the original post and quote where I did. THAT WAS YOU WHO BROUGHT THAT UP in one of your usual attempts to change the subject when faced with evidence that makes you feel uncomfortable.

I have a major problem with Crescent's invoice # 3178, which was used by the WC to "prove" that carton 3376 and thus rifle C2766 was part of the February shipment. The cartons on that document were checked off by someone who either shipped or received them and all were checked off EXCEPT carton 3376.

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As a result of that, I'm not convinced that carton 3376 / rifle C2766 was part of that shipment.

If that makes me a "kook" or "retard" ( as you referred to me in the newsgroup alt. conspiracy.jfk ), so be it.

I prefer to see myself as having legitimate questions regarding the evidence that you can't handle.

[David Von Pein]

Gil,

It's just that you can't abide the idea that Lee H. Oswald handled C2766 (which he so obviously did -- via CE637). Naturally, you think CE637 is a fake too. (Yawn.)

And Waldman Exhibit 3, at 21H698, proves for all time that Klein's received Rifle C2766 from Crescent Firearms (via a Crescent document--that you also think is fake, naturally).

Today's list of liars for Gilbert grows some more, with William Waldman and Louis Feldsott on the Liars List now.

Edited February 20, 2011 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

There's a second problem I have with the FBI's paperwork trail. The original Bill of Lading from Italy states that there were only 288 cartons of "model 38 E " rifles in that shipment.

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But the Harborside shipping records referred to above show that Rupp removed 434 rifles between August 29 and October 31, 1962 ( 170+90+70+64+40 ) and that ALL of those rifles were models "38 E" 's.

The 170 he removed on 8/29/62

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The 90 he removed on 10/4/62

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The 70 he removed on 10/16/62

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The 64 he removed on 10/24/62

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The 40 he removed on 10/31/62

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How could that possibly be ?

[Gil Jesus]

Gil,

It's just that you can't abide the idea that Lee H. Oswald handled C2766 (which he so obviously did -- via CE637). Naturally, you think CE637 is a fake too. (Yawn.)

And Waldman Exhibit 3, at 21H698, proves for all time that Klein's received Rifle C2766 from Crescent Firearms (via a Crescent document--that you also think is fake, naturally).

Today's list of liars for Gilbert grows some more, with William Waldman and Louis Feldsott on the Liars List now.

LET ME YAWN TOO.

This is Von Peinism at its best, when it gets too hot in the kitchen, he scampers to change the subject. CE 637 is the palmprint allegedly found on the rifle. Looks like he wants to dance over to another subject, which I will not allow. Waldman Exhibit 3 is an undated and unsigned list of the rifles which were in carton 3376. The discussion here is whether or not carton 3376 was ever a part of the February, 1963 shipment. I suggest that Crescent's invoice shows that 9 of the 10 cartons were verified by check marks and the tenth, carton 3376 was not. It's not refutable, the evidence is there and its obvious. Since there are no dates on Waldman Exhibit 3, it serves no purpose in proving that the rifle was part of the February shipment.

The point is that slip 3620, which contained the list of rifles in carton 3376, could have been filled out at any time.

In fact, when William Waldman testified, he was shown photostatic copies of the slips, not the original slips themselves. ( 7 H 363 ) And when he was asked to look through the manifests for a rifle with the serial number C2766, he testified that slip 3620 showed that carton 3376 contained a rifle with the serial number 2766 and didn't

refer to a letter prefix until he was prodded by counsel:

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

( ibid. )

Waldman didn't fill out those slips. He didn't fill out the order for the rifles. He didn't accept the shipment of the rifles, yet he was the one who gave testimony. The people whose responsibility it was to handle such measures were never called to testify to the origin of the documents.

And as far as Feldsott goes, I don't know what Von Pein is claiming when he claims that I consider Fedlsott a xxxx. Feldsott never testified before the commission and only gave a sworn affidavit. In that affidavit, Feldsott swore that rifle C2766 was sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0108a.htm

I believe that's correct, as I've stated before.

I would suggest that it was Von Pein, who supports the February '63 sale, as the one who considers Feldsott a xxxx.

[David G. Healy]

Gil,

It's just that you can't abide the idea that Lee H. Oswald handled C2766 (which he so obviously did -- via CE637). Naturally, you think CE637 is a fake too. (Yawn.)

And Waldman Exhibit 3, at 21H698, proves for all time that Klein's received Rifle C2766 from Crescent Firearms (via a Crescent document--that you also think is fake, naturally).

Today's list of liars for Gilbert grows some more, with William Waldman and Louis Feldsott on the Liars List now.

perhaps anything more serious than Leave it to Beaver (of which you have hundreds of posts) and the "Beav's" non-reality television exploits are a tad much for you, young man? Hmm?

[Gil Jesus]

That was my reaction also.

What the heck does that exhibit prove?

Jim, Von Pein and the rest of the Warrenati would rest on the expertise of William Waldman when it comes to the ordering and shipping of the rifle. But Waldman was anything but an expert. He knew so little about the M-C rifle, that when he was shown the order form from his company to Crescent Firearms,( Waldman Exhibit 1 ) he testified that the order had been changed from a 91TS to a 91/38EFF:

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different. We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

( 7 H 362 )

The problem is, that there is no such thing as a 91/38EFF. The "EFF" on the form was short for the word "effective" followed by the date 4/13/62.

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Waldman not only had no knowledge of the model of rifle his company handled, he had no knowledge of the language used on shipping forms.

Some expert, huh ?

[Gil Jesus]

Now, it is also interesting to note that the WR says that C2766 was outfitted with a scope.(ibid) Yet, as Armstrong notes, the HSCA discovered that Klein's only outfitted the 36 inch rifles with scopes, not the forty inch ones. (Armstrong, p. 448)

Absolutely correct. In fact, when the FBI asked Klein's for a replica rifle of the 40 inch rifle found on the sixth floor, they HAD TO TELL THEM WHERE TO MOUNT THE SCOPE.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt?

Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination. In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in approximately this position on the frame of the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so that the record is clear could you--

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring.

Mr. EISENBERG. On the----

Mr. FRAZIER. On the C-250 rifle.

( 3 H 396 )

[David Josephs]

Gil...

I am doing my own work on this and have a question.... this does confirm that 3376 was not checked off... yet please help me understand

The price extension on these cartons is $8.50..... the same as the CHANGED 1/12/62 order on 4/13/62 to M91/38 at $8.50ea

Doesn't that suggest that this order posted below is for the 40.2 inch M91/38 $8.50 rifle....? even though the weigh does not add up...

Could the 7.5lb weight per rifle have come from dividing the shipped weight by 100 or does each rifle actually weigh 7.5lbs?

If so, there would be no weight left for the shipping cartons...

So bottom line... with the $8.50 price, why are these not the longer rifle... and is that why 3376 was not checked?

Thanks

DJ

Gil Wrote:

WHOA...WAIT A MINUTE...IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT !!!!!

If you look closely at invoice # 3178, you'll see that ALL OF THE

CARTON NUMBERS HAVE LITTLE CHECKS ABOVE THEM EXCEPT CARTON NUMBER

3376.

That means that in verifying the carton numbers in that shipment, 3376

was never verified as being a part of that shipment.