Nelson Delgado

[Paul Trejo]

On the issue of Webster - I'm still skeptical - let's not read into his claims more than he claims. Marina could speak English? Does that mean she could say, 'hello, thank you, please and excuse me?' Does it mean considerably more? What evidence do we have beyond Webster's claims? Did Marina take English courses while in college? We have those records. Marina was no dummy - she was a chemistry graduate. But even chemistry graduates do not automatically master English. This should not be difficult to disprove.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Hi Paul

Marguerite Oswald really tried to impress upon the Commission that Marina could speak English and that she had many conversations with her in English.

James Martin (who was sleeping with her a few weeks after she buried her husband) stated she could understand everything he said in English.

Robert Oswald stated Marina had conversations with him in English - one about a James Martin business contract.

Robert Webster stated he met Marina and she could speak English (in a heavy accent - much like she still speaks to this very day)

She herself claimed that she called the Reily Coffee Company one day when she was looking for Lee - which would have been tough only being able to say "Hello, how are you?"

The buidling manager at the Elsbeth apartments, M. F. Tobias Snr., said that Marina's English was enough to understand and be understood ( Lost in Translation thread - http://educationforu...opic=17690&st=0 )

Minnie Williams (who lived with the Grays at the Neely Street property) claimed to have English conversations with Marina.

She could probably also write in English: http://www.aarclibra...WH16_CE_110.pdf

George Bouhe said he was "teaching" her English by sending her things through the post to "translate"

I think we can safely assume that Marina spoke good English, Paul - and that being the case, why do you think she continually lied about it? Sitting in front of the Warren Commission with a couple of interpreters when you can actually understand everything that is being asked of you is something of a major porky, don't you think?

The fact that she could speak English before she stepped foot on U.S. soil opens up a hornets nest.

Finally on Webster - skepticism is great, there are many members here who have been served well by it - however, it isn't just a case of Webster claiming he met her (according to Dick Russell who interviewed him) but the fact that the apartment complex in Leningrad where Webster lived was listed in Marina's address book. I know you believe in coincidences but you're going to need an extra-wide neck to swallow that one.

One of the other women who Webster was involved with in the USSR, Vera Ivchenko, was widely suspected as a KGB agent and the ramifications of this scared the HSCA so much that it decided not to name her. They instead called her "Robert Webster's girlfriend."

Regards

Lee

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee,

From a post I made back in Oct 2004 when trying to figure out more about Lawrence Orlov... "...But when you add that the above-mentioned Alexander Orlov was working at the University of Michigan at the same time Marina took an eight week course at the English Language Institute at UM, the flag pole needs to be extended."

And the following year, Joan Mellen's book had this to say about it, "Garrison did not raise Marina's having attended the English Language Institute at the University of Michigan, a hotbed of Soviet defectors and CIA assets, although he was aware that she had. He did not ask her if she knew former KGB officer, Alexander Orlov, resident there, placed by the CIA to be debriefed on what he knew about Soviet espionage..."

Given Marina's very likely ability to speak and comprehend English far better than she ever let on, what do we make of the above?

I appreciate your questions, Gary. I will admit this much - if (and only if) Marina Porter spoke English fluently enough to carry on a complex business conversation, and yet pretended to the world that she didn't know English, then of course my theory about her testimony would break down significantly.

So, I'm not married to my theory - but I am married to the Truth, and the Truth requires hard evidence, and not just innuendo and hear-say.

After all - condemning Lee Oswald as the Lone Assassin proceeded with innuendo and hear-say.

Also, as for Margueurite Oswald's opinion about Marina - I detect some hostility and bias there. One must remember the tremendous emotional pain that Marguerite was suffering -- being certain in her mind that Lee Oswald was a covert Military hero, taking the fall for a Military Coup, and the vast majority of the world calling her insane. She had few friends, and Marina Oswald did not feel in a position to try to console her. Some of this came out in the WC testimony, too. So, Marguerite's opinion is somewhat compromised.

As for these other people who claim that Marina spoke fluent English, I must take their testimony one at a time. I happen to be a certified ESL instructor (UCSC-Extension, 2004), so I know something about ESL and accents and fluency.

I also know that Marina was bright - and that she'd lived in the USA for nearly 1.5 years before JFK was assassinated. She was, as we say, immersed in English, which is the very best way to learn a language. So, if she could speak English fairly well in 1964 (as she did before the Warren Commission) that is not a surprise, academically.

Also, when people learn a foreign language by immersion, they always learn to listen and comprehend far sooner than they learn to speak it. (And they learn to speak it far sooner than they learn to read it.) So, I find Marina believable. Even if she understood what English-speakers were saying in November, 1963, it would have been rude or even cruel to force her to speak English right then and there.

Of course, everything changes if she was taking English classes in RUSSIA. That's now very different. But the evidence does not show that. That's very important to your case, I believe. Your case needs to show that Marina Porter had formal English classes in Russia, either at a very young age, or in college. I think the evidence is against you in this.

To make the 'English-speaking Marina' theory work, one must then resort to KGB theories - but the FBI and CIA scoured that pot clean.

All best,

--Paul

Edited December 21, 2011 by Paul Trejo

[Greg Parker]

On the issue of Webster - I'm still skeptical - let's not read into his claims more than he claims. Marina could speak English? Does that mean she could say, 'hello, thank you, please and excuse me?' Does it mean considerably more? What evidence do we have beyond Webster's claims? Did Marina take English courses while in college? We have those records. Marina was no dummy - she was a chemistry graduate. But even chemistry graduates do not automatically master English. This should not be difficult to disprove.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Hi Paul

Marguerite Oswald really tried to impress upon the Commission that Marina could speak English and that she had many conversations with her in English.

James Martin (who was sleeping with her a few weeks after she buried her husband) stated she could understand everything he said in English.

Robert Oswald stated Marina had conversations with him in English - one about a James Martin business contract.

Robert Webster stated he met Marina and she could speak English (in a heavy accent - much like she still speaks to this very day)

She herself claimed that she called the Reily Coffee Company one day when she was looking for Lee - which would have been tough only being able to say "Hello, how are you?"

The buidling manager at the Elsbeth apartments, M. F. Tobias Snr., said that Marina's English was enough to understand and be understood ( Lost in Translation thread - http://educationforu...opic=17690&st=0 )

Minnie Williams (who lived with the Grays at the Neely Street property) claimed to have English conversations with Marina.

She could probably also write in English: http://www.aarclibra...WH16_CE_110.pdf

George Bouhe said he was "teaching" her English by sending her things through the post to "translate"

I think we can safely assume that Marina spoke good English, Paul - and that being the case, why do you think she continually lied about it? Sitting in front of the Warren Commission with a couple of interpreters when you can actually understand everything that is being asked of you is something of a major porky, don't you think?

The fact that she could speak English before she stepped foot on U.S. soil opens up a hornets nest.

Finally on Webster - skepticism is great, there are many members here who have been served well by it - however, it isn't just a case of Webster claiming he met her (according to Dick Russell who interviewed him) but the fact that the apartment complex in Leningrad where Webster lived was listed in Marina's address book. I know you believe in coincidences but you're going to need an extra-wide neck to swallow that one.

One of the other women who Webster was involved with in the USSR, Vera Ivchenko, was widely suspected as a KGB agent and the ramifications of this scared the HSCA so much that it decided not to name her. They instead called her "Robert Webster's girlfriend."

Regards

Lee

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee,

From a post I made back in Oct 2004 when trying to figure out more about Lawrence Orlov... "...But when you add that the above-mentioned Alexander Orlov was working at the University of Michigan at the same time Marina took an eight week course at the English Language Institute at UM, the flag pole needs to be extended."

And the following year, Joan Mellen's book had this to say about it, "Garrison did not raise Marina's having attended the English Language Institute at the University of Michigan, a hotbed of Soviet defectors and CIA assets, although he was aware that she had. He did not ask her if she knew former KGB officer, Alexander Orlov, resident there, placed by the CIA to be debriefed on what he knew about Soviet espionage..."

Given Marina's very likely ability to speak and comprehend English far better than she ever let on, what do we make of the above?

I appreciate your questions, Gary. I will admit this much - if (and only if) Marina Porter spoke English fluently enough to carry on a complex business conversation, and yet pretend to the world that she didn't know English, then of course my theory about her testimony would break down significantly.

Paul, are you saying you'd only accept her English capability as "adequate" if she could negotiate to buy Trump Towers?

So, I'm not married to my theory - but I am married to the Truth, and the Truth requires hard evidence, and not just innuendo and hear-say.

Well, let's start with Marina whom you quote as saying she saw the rifle in February and that she first saw it at the Neely St address. At one point, she claims they moved into Neely in January. The official records have it that they moved there in early March and that the rifle was ordered in March. So what Marina said wasn't the "truth" regardless of whether or not she was lying (on those points)

After all - condemning Lee Oswald as the Lone Assassin proceeded with innuendo and hear-say.

Also, as for Margueurite Oswald's opinion about Marina - I detect some hostility and bias there. One must remember the tremendous emotional pain that Marguerite was suffering -- being certain in her mind that Lee Oswald was a covert Military hero, taking the fall for a Military Coup, and the vast majority of the world calling her insane. She had few friends, and Marina Oswald did not feel in a position to try to console her. Some of this came out in the WC testimony, too. So, Marguerite's opinion is somewhat compromised.

Marguerite was not expressing "opinion". She was stating what she was adamant was a fact - that Marina talked to her in English. Marguerite had no motive whatsoever to take any frustration out on Marina.

As for these other people who claim that Marina spoke fluent English, I must take their testimony one at a time. I happen to be a certified ESL instructor (UCSC-Extension, 2004), so I know something about ESL and accents and fluency.

The only one I have any concerns over is the one who lived in the bottom apartment on Neely -- because I still have some antipathy about accepting that the Oswald's ever lived in that apartment. But even if they did, Minnie may have actually spoken to say Ruth Paine in the mistaken belief she was the resident upstairs.

I also know that Marina was bright - and that she'd lived in the USA for nearly 1.5 years before JFK was assassinated. She was, as we say, immersed in English, which is the very best way to learn a language. So, if she could speak English fairly well in 1964 (as she did before the Warren Commission) that is not a surprise, academically.

We're talking about early '63 and prior.

Also, when people learn a foreign language by immersion, they always learn to listen and comprehend far sooner than they learn to speak it. (And they learn to speak it far sooner than they learn to read it.) So, I find Marina believable. Even if she understood what English-speakers were saying in November, 1963, it would have been rude or even cruel to force her to speak English right then and there.

Generally, use of an interpretor in marginal cases of need has as many drawbacks as pluses.

Of course, everything changes if she was taking English classes in RUSSIA. That's now very different. But the evidence does not show that. That's very important to your case, I believe. Your case needs to show that Marina Porter had formal English classes in Russia, either at a very young age, or in college. I think the evidence is against you in this.

I'm not making a case, Paul. The evidence is what it is. If a significant number of people claim she could speak and understand English prior to '64, then that warrants serious consideration - with or without any known evidence of having English classes - which just limits the possibilities anyway. She lived with Oswald for about 15 months in Minsk. Enough time to learn. There are also gaps in her Russian biography where it is not known what she was doing or exactly where she was.

Your logic dictates that if there is no evidence that she had English classes sufficient to negotiate difficult business deals, then all the witnesses are wrong, lying, being vindictive, mistaken etc. I don't believe that is a reasonable way to proceed.

To make the 'English-speaking Marina' theory work, one must then resort to KGB theories - but the FBI and CIA scoured that pot clean.

"Cleansed" is the term used. The FBI and CIA avoided any indications of agency involvement regarding any key player, regarding any agency of any country. KGB is not required - though possible.

All best,

--Paul

[Greg Parker]

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee, I look forward to your responses. As for the CIA/Mexico connection, I find the memoirs of Harry Dean (a member of this Forum) to be most revealing. Dean says he personally saw General Walker in Mexico during this time-frame, speaking with radical, gun-toting members of the JBS, plotting the Dallas logisitics, and naming Oswald as their patsy. Mexico City was the 'smoke-filled room', according to Harry Dean.

All best,

--Paul

Paul,

I cannot locate the information Harry has posted regarding Walker in Mexico City. Am interested in that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the link? Thanks.

[Paul Trejo]

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee, I look forward to your responses. As for the CIA/Mexico connection, I find the memoirs of Harry Dean (a member of this Forum) to be most revealing. Dean says he personally saw General Walker in Mexico during this time-frame, speaking with radical, gun-toting members of the JBS, plotting the Dallas logisitics, and naming Oswald as their patsy. Mexico City was the 'smoke-filled room', according to Harry Dean.

All best,

--Paul

Paul,

I cannot locate the information Harry has posted regarding Walker in Mexico City. Am interested in that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the link? Thanks.

Greg,

Here's a solid link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdeanH.htm

All best,

--Paul

[Harry J.Dean]

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee, I look forward to your responses. As for the CIA/Mexico connection, I find the memoirs of Harry Dean (a member of this Forum) to be most revealing. Dean says he personally saw General Walker in Mexico during this time-frame, speaking with radical, gun-toting members of the JBS, plotting the Dallas logisitics, and naming Oswald as their patsy. Mexico City was the 'smoke-filled room', according to Harry Dean.

All best,

--Paul

Paul,

I cannot locate the information Harry has posted regarding Walker in Mexico City. Am interested in that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the link? Thanks.

Greg,

Here's a solid link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdeanH.htm

All best,

--Paul

Paul and Greg

I see in this more of the vindictive efforts and quotes of W.R. Morris reaching

out from his vengeful grave in the above misstatements, also in his mostly

erroneous book, 'Alias Oswald' among his many others writings.

If and when all records are released, you will see the debriefing report re;

"the Cuban people 'will not' aid in overthrowing that 'Castro' government when

it is invaded".

Harry

[Greg Parker]

P.S. I think a lot of the other stuff you have written about deMohrenschildt/Bouhe/Walker suffers from evidence omissions and glosses over certain things quite superficially. I'd like to respond to the rest tomorrow if I have a chance.

And I'd like to know how a Walker/Ferrie/Martin revenge plot factors in the CIA/Mexico City shenanigans, the removal of Oswald's FBI FLASH and the segregation of his 201 file.

Lee, I look forward to your responses. As for the CIA/Mexico connection, I find the memoirs of Harry Dean (a member of this Forum) to be most revealing. Dean says he personally saw General Walker in Mexico during this time-frame, speaking with radical, gun-toting members of the JBS, plotting the Dallas logisitics, and naming Oswald as their patsy. Mexico City was the 'smoke-filled room', according to Harry Dean.

All best,

--Paul

Paul,

I cannot locate the information Harry has posted regarding Walker in Mexico City. Am interested in that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the link? Thanks.

Greg,

Here's a solid link: http://www.spartacus...uk/JFKdeanH.htm

All best,

--Paul

Paul and Greg

I see in this more of the vindictive efforts and quotes of W.R. Morris reaching

out from his vengeful grave in the above misstatements, also in his mostly

erroneous book, 'Alias Oswald' among his many others writings.

If and when all records are released, you will see the debriefing report re;

"the Cuban people 'will not' aid in overthrowing that 'Castro' government when

it is invaded".

Harry

Harry, I'm sorry but your reply is a bit too cryptic for me. Paul said you wrote that you had seen Walker in Mexico City during a relevant time-frame.

I would just like to know if that is true, and if so, where I can read more details.

[Paul Trejo]

Lee, I look forward to your responses. As for the CIA/Mexico connection, I find the memoirs of Harry Dean (a member of this Forum) to be most revealing. Dean says he personally saw General Walker in Mexico during this time-frame, speaking with radical, gun-toting members of the JBS, plotting the Dallas logisitics, and naming Oswald as their patsy. Mexico City was the 'smoke-filled room', according to Harry Dean.

All best,

--Paul

Paul,

I cannot locate the information Harry has posted regarding Walker in Mexico City. Am interested in that. If it's not too much trouble, could you please post the link? Thanks.

Greg,

Here's a solid link: http://www.spartacus...uk/JFKdeanH.htm

All best,

--Paul

Paul and Greg

I see in this more of the vindictive efforts and quotes of W.R. Morris reaching

out from his vengeful grave in the above misstatements, also in his mostly

erroneous book, 'Alias Oswald' among his many others writings.

If and when all records are released, you will see the debriefing report re;

"the Cuban people 'will not' aid in overthrowing that 'Castro' government when

it is invaded".

Harry

Harry, I'm sorry but your reply is a bit too cryptic for me. Paul said you wrote that you had seen Walker in Mexico City during a relevant time-frame.

I would just like to know if that is true, and if so, where I can read more details.

Greg, let's see if I can clarify. I need to apologize because I rushed the story, following William Morris' interpretation of Harry's account.

Harry's written report says that the JBS leadership met Oswald in Mexico, however, the planning of the JFK assassination occurred in Southern California - and it was there in Southern California that Harry met with JBS official John Rousselot and General Edwin Walker. So, I apologize, because I conflated the two events by relying on a secondary source instead of the primary source. But now I've set the record straight.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited December 22, 2011 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Hi Paul

Pardon me for saying so but you seem to be placing a series of great expectations upon me to further prove that Marina Oswald spoke English. My actual point was that if she could speak English, and we have many witnesses that claim she could, then she carried on the pretense that she couldn't during her entire Warren Commission testimony - which would basically amount to her "lying."

The only reason I would have to prove that she learned English in the USSR would be to support Robert Webster's claim that she could speak it when he met her in Leningrad. You say there isn't enough proof to support the fact she met him so I assume you believe it is a coincidence that she just happened to visit Leningrad and that she just happened to have a "friend" in the same apartment block where Webster lived, in the massive expanse of the Soviet Union (all 22,402,200, square kilometers) she came this close to a second U.S. "defector", and she had this address in her notebook? Have I got this right? You believe this is simply a coincidence?

Now when I provided you the list of all of the people who said Marina could speak English you ask me for more. But when I ask you to intergrate Mexico City into your theory you give me the name of Harry Dean. Now I'm not disputing Harry's report but you seem to accept things that have less evidence available than I provided regarding Marina's ability to speak English. Seems like a double standard taking place.

Regards

Lee

Lee, I'm not demanding proof that Marina spoke English when she arrived in the USA. Your point is well taken -- if (and only if) she could speak fluent English, but put on an act while she was in the USA, then my theory that she is believable must crash.

I can see that. So, in order to defend my theory, I must naturally question the claim that Marina spoke fluent English when she came to the USA.

As for the claim that she knew another American defector in her town, I don't find that hard to believe at all. If the KGB wanted to keep track of American defectors, the easiest way would be to collect them in a compact geological location. That's not a coincidence, that's typical planning.

Now, Robert Webster made a claim that he met her in Leningrad. That is easy to believe. He made a further claim that she spoke English. But to what extent? That is very subjective. Is Webster an expert in ESL? Can he tell the difference between somebody who knows 10 common phrases and somebody with a 2,000 word vocabulary? I don't see the evidence.

Anybody can fake a foreign language for a few minutes. I don't see any hard evidence that she spoke FLUENT English - and a peson who is not trained in linguistics would not be a reliable judge. We need more.

As for the other people who said they heard Marina speak English - they were all in the USA. Marguerite Oswald did not impress me as a linguistics student, so her opinion of how well Marina spoke English when she arrived is also subjective. Marina could say, 'please' and 'thank you?' Marina could say, 'my baby' and 'food' and 'hungry'? That might be enough for Marguerite, who didn't seem to dote on her grandchildren.

As for the other witnesses you pointed out, they spoke about Marina's English after she had been in the USA for nearly two years! A person can learn a lot about a foreign language in two years if they are immersed in that culture. In only three more months Marina would be giving testimony to the Warren Commission in English - a tall order, actually. She did fairly well, but one can see the real flaws in her English even then.

If somebody says she was faking the flaws in her English - they would next have to prove that she was an expert in linguistics - because that's what it would take to fake flaws in a foreign language in a courtroom setting.

I don't see the evidence, Lee. There is hear-say, and there is also subjective opinion, and there is also a negligence about the time-frames involved - whether she just arrived in the USA or whether she was here for one or two years, and also there is no indication about the actual linguistic level at which Marina 'spoke English.'

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited December 22, 2011 by Paul Trejo

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi Paul

Pardon me for saying so but you seem to be placing a series of great expectations upon me to further prove that Marina Oswald spoke English. My actual point was that if she could speak English, and we have many witnesses that claim she could, then she carried on the pretense that she couldn't during her entire Warren Commission testimony - which would basically amount to her "lying."

The only reason I would have to prove that she learned English in the USSR would be to support Robert Webster's claim that she could speak it when he met her in Leningrad. You say there isn't enough proof to support the fact she met him so I assume you believe it is a coincidence that she just happened to visit Leningrad and that she just happened to have a "friend" in the same apartment block where Webster lived, in the massive expanse of the Soviet Union (all 22,402,200, square kilometers) she came this close to a second U.S. "defector", and she had this address in her notebook? Have I got this right? You believe this is simply a coincidence?

Now when I provided you the list of all of the people who said Marina could speak English you ask me for more. But when I ask you to intergrate Mexico City into your theory you give me the name of Harry Dean. Now I'm not disputing Harry's report but you seem to accept things that have less evidence available than I provided regarding Marina's ability to speak English. Seems like a double standard taking place.

Regards

Lee

Lee, I'm not demanding proof that Marina spoke English when she arrived in the USA. Your point is well taken -- if (and only if) she could speak fluent English, but put on an act while she was in the USA, then my theory that she is believable must crash.

I can see that. So, in order to defend my theory, I must naturally question the claim that Marina spoke fluent English when she came to the USA.

As for the claim that she knew another American defector in her town, I don't find that hard to believe at all. If the KGB wanted to keep track of American defectors, the easiest way would be to collect them in a compact geological location. That's not a coincidence, that's typical planning.

Now, Robert Webster made a claim that he met her in Leningrad. That is easy to believe. He made a further claim that she spoke English. But to what extent? That is very subjective. Is Webster an expert in ESL? Can he tell the difference between somebody who knows 10 common phrases and somebody with a 2,000 word vocabulary? I don't see the evidence.

Anybody can fake a foreign language for a few minutes. I don't see any hard evidence that she spoke FLUENT English - and a peson who is not trained in linguistics would not be a reliable judge. We need more.

As for the other people who said they heard Marina speak English - they were all in the USA. Marguerite Oswald did not impress me as a linguistics student, so her opinion of how well Marina spoke English when she arrived is also subjective. Marina could say, 'please' and 'thank you?' Marina could say, 'my baby' and 'food' and 'hungry'? That might be enough for Marguerite, who didn't seem to dote on her grandchildren.

As for the other witnesses you pointed out, they spoke about Marina's English after she had been in the USA for nearly two years! A person can learn a lot about a foreign language in two years if they are immersed in that culture. In only three more months Marina would be giving English testimony for the Warren Commission - a tall order, actually. She did fairly well, but one can see the real flaws in her English even then.

If somebody says she was faking the flaws in her English - they would next have to prove that she was an expert in linguistics - because that's what it would take to fake flaws in a foreign language in a courtroom setting.

I don't see the evidence, Lee. There is hear-say, and there is also subjective opinion, and there is also a negligence about the time-frames involved - whether she just arrived in the USA or whether she was here for one or two years, and also there is no indiciation about the actual linguistic level at which Marina 'spoke English.'

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

My Walker connections were not in Mexico,

they were in Southern California. These

were part of the network operating between

here, Mexico, and across the U.S.

[Paul Trejo]

My Walker connections were not in Mexico,

they were in Southern California. These

were part of the network operating between

here, Mexico, and across the U.S.

Thanks, Harry, for confirming what I told Greg earlier this morning about the JBS. As a further word of explanation for the readers of this thread, based on what you told me, Harry, I'll add the following:

Harry was working for the government by observing the John Birch Society (JBS) in 1963. This was in Southern California. Now, I grew up in Southern California in the 50's, 60's and 70's, and I can affirm that the John Birch Society was very influential down there. It was practically a household word among those who bothered with politics.

In 1963 Harry Dean learned a lot about the John Birch Society (much of which is shocking and that I will defer to Harry), including the fact that the resigned ex-General Edwin Walker and former Congressman John Rousselot were active members, and would attend the more radical meetings among the more violent-minded JBS. So Harry was observing these circles when he encountered, personally, in Southern California, those events in which General Walker and these JBS members actively plotted the JFK assassination to occur in Dallas in 1963, including who would be paid how much, and how Lee Harvey Oswald would be the patsy.

These activities involved some other well-known figures (whose names I will also defer to Harry) who were in Mexico at the time Lee Oswald was there, and who transferred cash to Oswald for his (possibly) minor role in the Dallas conspiracy.

In my theory - in my humble opinion - this Forum has a member who witnessed the key event of the JFK assassination cover-up, namely, drafting Lee Harvey Oswald as the patsy.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited December 22, 2011 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Just as a point of curiosity for me. Why does the conspiracy side use the testimony of Nelson Delgado, to lend weight to the theory that Oswald was a poor shot?

There are two specific thoughts that spring to mind concerning your question:

i) The raging debate that has taken place over the last 48 years has come down to whether Oswald was a decent shot or a poor shot. There has never been anyone make the claim that during his military service he was a crack/expert shot. He was never the best of the best. Right?

ii) So whether he was decent or poor is of little consequence due to the fact that the Frazier tests and the CBS tests that were done involved nobody that was a poor or decent shot. Correct? The first set of Frazier tests in 1963 being done by Robert Frazier, Charles Killion and Courtland Cummingham. All experts in their field. The second set in 1964 by Miller, Stanley and Hendrix. All expert marksmen. The CBS tests in 1967 also took place with expert shots did they not? The 11 experts marksmen in this test consisted of 3 Maryland state policemen, 3 White Lab employees from the H.P. White Ballistics Laboratory where the tests took place, a weapons engineer named Howard Donahue, a ballistics technician, 2 sportsmen and an ex-paratrooper just back from Vietnam. You think this is comparable to Oswald's scorecards?

Why not tests with average marksmen?

Let's not get into the results and the conditions that the tests were conducted under because that's a different story. If they'd have gotten Roger Bannister to do a Beckley to 10th & Patton test I'm sure we'd all raise an eyebrow or three...

Expert or non expert, it doesn't matter a toss. The undisputable fact is, that whoever took the shots, expert or non expert, from the 6th floor windwow or any other speculated firing location, got the job done.

And where does that leave us? And Mike's question? You are saying that someone shot JFK from some location in Dealey Plaza and they may or may not have been an expert marksman.

Wow.

Case closed.

"... 'Record day' was a high point in recruit training and occurred during the third range week. (From 1948 thru 2007--T.Graves)...(S)hots were fired in the standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone positions at the 200, 300 and 500-yard lines, (using 'iron sights' --T.Graves), for a maximum score of 250 points. This system remained in place until 2007." (attributed to Alvarez)

FWIW, the distance from the sixth floor "sniper's lair" to the fatal headshot at Z-313 was determined to be 265.3 feet. My handy-dandy calculator says that's only 88.43% of 100 yards. But then again, I never was any good at math(s).

--Tommy

Edited December 22, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Just as a point of curiosity for me. Why does the conspiracy side use the testimony of Nelson Delgado, to lend weight to the theory that Oswald was a poor shot?

In my opinion, Mike, it doesn't matter if Oswald was a great shot or a poor shot, because the evidence that the US government found (House Select Committee on Assassinations, 1979) determined that shots came from two directions. More than one shooter was involved, they concluded - also they also concluded that we will probably never know who the other shooter(s) happened to be.

So in my opinion, the testimony of Nelson Delgado doesn't really matter anymore, anyway. The US government re-opened the Warren Commission case, and re-closed it with a new verdict -- although Oswald was involved, he didn't act alone.

That's really the official position of the US government, Mike. Why anybody would hope to turn back the hands of time to 1964 and subscribe to the politics that required Lee Oswald to be the "Lone Assassin" is the larger question here. The USA in general is beyond all that today.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited December 25, 2011 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Just as a point of curiosity for me. Why does the conspiracy side use the testimony of Nelson Delgado, to lend weight to the theory that Oswald was a poor shot?

Does anyone know if Delgado is still alive? If so, how to contact him?

Thanks,

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Just as a point of curiosity for me. Why does the conspiracy side use the testimony of Nelson Delgado, to lend weight to the theory that Oswald was a poor shot?

Does anyone know if Delgado is still alive? If so, how to contact him?

Thanks,

--Tommy

I'd like to ask him about the time he, Oswald, and a couple other Marines went to a gay bar, at Oswald's suggestion, called The Flamingo which Delgado said was a mile or two outside Tijuana, Mexico. Delgado said Oswald knew how to get there and seemed to be familiar with the joint. I'm trying to figure out if the place was mafia-owned. The mafioso I knew in San Diego had owned some bars in Tijuana with his brother before they moved from TJ to San Diego. They had previously lived in Los Angeles from around 1920 until 1924 and were associated with LA boss Jack Dragna who, in turn, was associated with Johnny Roselli. Also, it's interesting to note that, according to Dick Russell in TMWKTM, when Oswald was stationed in Japan, he may have been used by a US intelligence agency in its attempt to get a Russian, Colonel Eroshkin, to defect to the US, and that LHO may have tried to compromise Eroshin by engaging him in a homosexual relationship.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Just as a point of curiosity for me. Why does the conspiracy side use the testimony of Nelson Delgado, to lend weight to the theory that Oswald was a poor shot?

Does anyone know if Delgado is still alive? If so, how to contact him?

Thanks,

--Tommy

I'd like to ask him about the time he, Oswald, and a couple other Marines went to a gay bar, at Oswald's suggestion, called The Flamingo which Delgado said was a mile or two outside Tijuana, Mexico. Delgado said Oswald knew how to get there and seemed to be familiar with the joint. I'm trying to figure out if the place was mafia-owned. The mafioso I knew in San Diego had owned some bars in Tijuana with his brother before they moved from TJ to San Diego. They had previously lived in Los Angeles from around 1920 until 1924 and were associated with LA boss Jack Dragna who, in turn, was associated with Johnny Roselli. Also, it's interesting to note that, according to Dick Russell's source in TMWKTM, when Oswald was stationed in Japan, he may have been used by a US intelligence agency in its attempt to get a Russian, Colonel Eroshkin, to defect to the US, and that LHO may have tried to compromise Eroshin by engaging him in a homosexual relationship.

bump

Edited March 14, 2012 by Thomas Graves