Buying the Money Order

[Gil Jesus]

One of the important pieces of evidence in proving that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased a postal money order he used to buy the rifle he used to kill President Kennedy is to place Oswald in the post office from which the MO was purchased. Obviously, you can't prove Oswald purchased the MO WITHOUT placing Oswald in the PO. We do this by determining through documentation, Oswald's whereabouts on the day of the purchase.

Here are Oswald's timesheets from his employer Jagger-Childs-Stovall for March 12, 1963, the day the MO was purchased. As one can see, his time was regimented and beside a break for lunch between 12:15 and 12:45, he took no other break. All of the jobs he worked on are listed and all of his time from 8 AM thru 5:15 PM is accounted for.

[David Von Pein]

I'll remind Gil of CE1949 [at 23 H 751], which is an employee record from the TSBD that indicates that "Leslie" Oswald worked a full EIGHT-HOUR day at the TSBD on 11/22/63.

Maybe "Leslie" was the THIRD Oswald in the building that day....along with his brothers "Harvey" and "Lee".

It would appear that everybody was given credit for a full day's work on 11/22, even though nobody did any work after 12:30.

So, if we're to take every one of Oswald's 1963 time cards (or summary sheets, like we see in CE1949) as the Gospel truth about WHERE OSWALD WAS LOCATED at these precise times in question, then I guess LHO was still busy filling book orders at the Depository even after the assassination occurred and even after he was in police custody at the DPD.

Point being -- Perhaps it's not a real good idea to try and use "time card" information as "proof" that someone was where they were supposed to be at a given time.

My view is that Oswald bought his money order BEFORE he went to work on March 12th. And if the post office wasn't open before 8:00 AM (anybody know?), I would surmise that LHO just showed up for work a little late on March 12th, despite what the official JCS records show.

Edited March 11, 2011 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

You can't prove Oswald purchased the MO WITHOUT placing Oswald in the PO.

This is total nonsense.

Gil thinks that every single thing connected to Oswald purchasing his money order has got to be documented and verified by human eyes in order to reasonably form a conclusion that Oswald did, in fact, purchase the $21.45 money order on 3/12/63. Hogwash!

Next, we'll probably have Gil saying that Oswald couldn't POSSIBLY have purchased that money order because there weren't any television cameras focused on Oswald when he was writing his (fake) Hidell name and his address on the money order.

After all, per Gil's logic, if there wasn't a WITNESS to Oswald physically writing the words on that money order, then it can never be reasonably assumed that LHO wrote anything on it at all...right Gil?

Edited March 11, 2011 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

See, something happened on 11/22 that did not happen on March 12th. Hint. Hint. Yep, that's it Davey, JFK was killed. Right in front of that building called the TSBD.

Somebody give Jimbo a cookie (make it a Lorna Doone)! He got one right!

~fainting~

Did the owners think everyone was going to keep on working that day with police running through the place and calling witnesses etc?

Right. Exactly. So, what do we find in CE1949? The books look EXACTLY like a normal day at the TSBD (i.e., it looks just like all other days when Presidents weren't being killed from that building).

Which was kinda my point to Gil, Jimbo -- that sometimes you can't rely on those type of written-in records for dead-on accurate timekeeping to establish the WHEREABOUTS of an employee.

The 11/22 & CE1949 example might not be a perfect analogy, no. Because, yes, it's true that Presidents weren't being murdered on the JCS doorstep on March 12th -- but I think you might catch my main drift on this. Don't you, Jimmy?

Do you lay awake nights thinking up the most ridiculous comparisons you can just to insult and bore people here?

Yep. Sort of. Kinda like the way you lay awake every night trying to figure out who you can next call a xxxx or a COVER-UP SPECIALIST or a "TROIKA" member or a person who is stricken with "McADAMS DISEASE".

Edited March 11, 2011 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

One of the important pieces of evidence in proving that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased a postal money order he used to buy the rifle he used to kill President Kennedy is to place Oswald in the post office from which the MO was purchased. Obviously, you can't prove Oswald purchased the MO WITHOUT placing Oswald in the PO. We do this by determining through documentation, Oswald's whereabouts on the day of the purchase.

Here are Oswald's timesheets from his employer Jagger-Childs-Stovall for March 12, 1963, the day the MO was purchased. As one can see, his time was regimented and beside a break for lunch between 12:15 and 12:45, he took no other break. All of the jobs he worked on are listed and all of his time from 8 AM thru 5:15 PM is accounted for.

The CIA's official chronology of Oswald in 62-63 after his return from the Soviet Union says that Oswald took the photos of the Walker residence and neighborhood on a Sunday, BEFORE he ordered the weapons, based primarily on these timecards, which indicate he worked from early in the morning till late afternoon every day, except Sunday.

But when it comes to when he got the money order and mailed it and picked up the rifle - sometime in March, they say he "lied" on his timecard and did those things when he was supposed to be at work.

I speculated that perhaps his "working" for a client that is listed on the timecard, (such as Sam Bloom ad agency, on whose account Oswald worked for a part of almost every day, and who arranged for the time and direction of the motorcade), could have included the picking up or delivery of finished photos and copy as a runner or delivery boy, something that Oswald did in New Orleans.

But Gary Mack says no, that Oswald would not have had any contact with those clients, and was just a technician.

BK

[David Josephs]

Are we making the assumption that "buying the MO" and "mailing the envelope" would occur at the same visit?

That Oswald has the coupon, buys the USPS Money Order, Buys a Air Mail stamp, and mails it when he's there?

What bothers me again is the anomolie of the postmark on this envelope...

The time portion looks like no other postmark unless the "AM" just did not show up.

It appears to say 10:30... and for this to get to Kleins for deposit the next day, "AM" would make sense.

I am unaware of the exact process at this time... do the stamps change from AM to PM or does the date just change?

Does this 10:30 time have any bearing on the timeline for buying the MO and then mailing this envelope?

and finally, in every example of postmarks I could find http://www.postalhistory.com/index.htm the stamp is easily identified..

A close zoom of the stamp on this envelope reveals nothing... literally nothing... maybe a better copy?

Just seems strange again that we'd not be able to see this stamp.

[Jack White]

One of the important pieces of evidence in proving that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased a postal money order he used to buy the rifle he used to kill President Kennedy is to place Oswald in the post office from which the MO was purchased. Obviously, you can't prove Oswald purchased the MO WITHOUT placing Oswald in the PO. We do this by determining through documentation, Oswald's whereabouts on the day of the purchase.

Here are Oswald's timesheets from his employer Jagger-Childs-Stovall for March 12, 1963, the day the MO was purchased. As one can see, his time was regimented and beside a break for lunch between 12:15 and 12:45, he took no other break. All of the jobs he worked on are listed and all of his time from 8 AM thru 5:15 PM is accounted for.

Just to get it right, the firm name is JAGGARS-CHILES-STOVALL. To those of us who were customers, it was simply JAGGARS.

Jack

[Jack White]

Are we making the assumption that "buying the MO" and "mailing the envelope" would occur at the same visit?

That Oswald has the coupon, buys the USPS Money Order, Buys a Air Mail stamp, and mails it when he's there?

What bothers me again is the anomolie of the postmark on this envelope...

The time portion looks like no other postmark unless the "AM" just did not show up.

It appears to say 10:30... and for this to get to Kleins for deposit the next day, "AM" would make sense.

I am unaware of the exact process at this time... do the stamps change from AM to PM or does the date just change?

Does this 10:30 time have any bearing on the timeline for buying the MO and then mailing this envelope?

and finally, in every example of postmarks I could find http://www.postalhistory.com/index.htm the stamp is easily identified..

A close zoom of the stamp on this envelope reveals nothing... literally nothing... maybe a better copy?

Just seems strange again that we'd not be able to see this stamp.

Analysis I did for John Armstrong.

Jack

[Gil Jesus]

My view is that Oswald bought his money order BEFORE he went to work on March 12th. And if the post office wasn't open before 8:00 AM (anybody know?), I would surmise that LHO just showed up for work a little late on March 12th, despite what the official JCS records show.

Speculation with no proof. Isn't that how you describe it ? The EVIDENCE is that EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of Oswald's time is accounted for between 8:00 am and 5:15 pm on March 12, 1963. Ever hear of a post office opening before 8:00 am ? There's also NO EVIDENCE that Oswald was late for work that day. In fact, according to his boss at JCS, he was "very punctual".

Mr. JENNER. Was he regular in his arrival at work?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were his work habits in that connection satisfactory?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I would say he was very punctual in his arrival to work.

( 10 H 184 )

Total Von Pein nonsense. Had this case gone to court, Oswald's worksheets would have been admitted as evidence that he had an alibi at the time the money order was purchased...he was at work.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

Which was kinda my point to Gil, Jimbo -- that sometimes you can't rely on those type of written-in records for dead-on accurate timekeeping to establish the WHEREABOUTS of an employee.

When you suggested that Oswald was late for work that day, I provided you with evidence --- testimony regarding Oswald's punctuality at work from his boss, no less.

Now you're suggesting that Oswald left work sometime during the day and it wasn't documented ?

You know David, you have to provide EVIDENCE supporting your argument. It's not normal to say something, then when you're called on it, to just fly off in another direction and start all over again.

Everything you've stated so far is speculation and opinion. You've offered NO EVIDENCE that the Post Office opened before 8 am, that Oswald was late for work that day, or that he left work without it being documented.

The EVIDENCE presented, David, is that the opposite of these is true. And your denial of them doesn't a.) make them any less so and b.) enhance your credibility one bit.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

But when it comes to when he got the money order and mailed it and picked up the rifle - sometime in March, they say he "lied" on his timecard and did those things when he was supposed to be at work.

I speculated that perhaps his "working" for a client that is listed on the timecard, could have included the picking up or delivery of finished photos and copy as a runner or delivery boy, something that Oswald did in New Orleans.

But Gary Mack says no, that Oswald would not have had any contact with those clients, and was just a technician.

BK

Bill, wouldn't you agree that that would be a helluva lot of walking for a guy with no car and no license ?

Mr. JENNER. Did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his ability to operate an automobile arose?

Mr. GRAEF. No; as far as I know, he never had one.

Mr. JENNER. And there was no occasion in his work when he might have been called upon to drive an automobile?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

( 10 H 192 )

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

Just to get it right, the firm name is JAGGARS-CHILES-STOVALL. To those of us who were customers, it was simply JAGGARS.

Jack

Yes, thank you. It's Jaggers. I'm a pretty good speller but a terrible typist.

[Gil Jesus]

I'll remind Gil of CE1949 [at 23 H 751], which is an employee record from the TSBD that indicates that "Leslie" Oswald worked a full EIGHT-HOUR day at the TSBD on 11/22/63.

I love it when you try to change the subject. Comparing pay policies of different businesses in different circumstances on different dates. Then suggesting there's a common link between the two.

How the TSBD paid its employees for the day of 11/22/63 has NOTHING to do with Jaggars-Childs-Stovall or March 12, 1963.

If you have EVIDENCE that Oswald didn't work the hours attributed to him at Jaggars on March 12, 1963, please post it.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

You can't prove Oswald purchased the MO WITHOUT placing Oswald in the PO.

This is total nonsense.

Gil thinks that every single thing connected to Oswald purchasing his money order has got to be documented and verified by human eyes in order to reasonably form a conclusion that Oswald did, in fact, purchase the $21.45 money order on 3/12/63. Hogwash!

Next, we'll probably have Gil saying that Oswald couldn't POSSIBLY have purchased that money order because there weren't any television cameras focused on Oswald when he was writing his (fake) Hidell name and his address on the money order.

After all, per Gil's logic, if there wasn't a WITNESS to Oswald physically writing the words on that money order, then it can never be reasonably assumed that LHO wrote anything on it at all...right Gil?

Did I mention the words "witnesses" or "human eyes" ? And what's this about television cameras ? Where the hell do you get this stuff from ? Why is it that everytime I post something, you try to put words in my mouth that I never said ?

Is there something wrong with you ?

Don't you get the message ?

The reason why you don't need someone to physically see him in the post office is because the PROOF that Oswald WASN'T in the Post Office are the Jaggars timesheets.

EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of his day, from 8am to 5:15pm is accounted for. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY KEEP SO STRINGENT A RECORD, SO THEIR EMPLOYEES CAN GO OFF ON THEIR OWN ANYTIME THEY WANT THROUGHOUT THE CITY...AND ON THE COMPANY'S DIME ? They do it to keep track of the time spent on each account and to ensure that people aren't slacking off.

Like I said, if you have EVIDENCE that the Jaggars timesheets are inaccurate, post it.

Otherwise, you're not BSing anybody with your silly editorializing mocking posters who raise legitimate questions regarding the evidence.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

Well, it would be kind of dumb for Oswald to buy the money order at the post office, and then walk miles out of his way to mail it at a mail box, especially since he is violating his employment contract at the time.

Why would one do such a thing?

One wouldn't. But this isn't the only piece of evidence that one needs to ignore if one is to believe the official version. Let's just look at the evidence regarding the purchase of the rifle and see what one needs to ignore.

In order to believe that Oswald purchased the rifle, you must ignore:

That Oswald was at work on the day and time the money order was purchased.

That Oswald mailed the envelope with the money order at a mailbox rather than the post office from where it was bought.

That the money order number was out of sequence fot the Dallas PO, which sold 1200 MOs a week. The money order should have been sold in late 1964 or early 1965.

That the money order was never deposited by Klein's because it didn't have the bank stamp of Klein's bank, the First National Bank of Chicago on it.

That the VP of Operations of the FNB of Chicago, Robert Wilmouth, told the FBI that the "$21.45" on Waldman 10 was in fact an American Express Money Order, not the "Hidell" postal money order.

That Klein's deposit slip for the $ 13,857.98 deposit showed a date of 2/15/63.

That "Hidell ordered" catalog number C20-T750, a 36" carbine, ( which is also noted in Waldman 7 ) while the Depository rifle was catalog number C20-750, a 40" short rifle.

That there is no record that carton number 3376, which contained rifle C2766 was ever removed from the Harborside Warehouse between 8/29 and 10/31/62.

That Crescent Firearms invoice 3148 lists 10 cartons shipped to Klein's Sporting Goods, but only nine are actaully checked off. The tenth, carton # 3376 is not checked off.

That the officials "found" the stub of the 3/12/63 money order in ten minutes searching manually, but it took a computer in Washington another 7 hours to find the actual money order.

That Hoover telephoned Johnson at 9:00am on the 23rd to tell him that the money order had been found, when Harry Holmes told the WC that the stub wasn't found until 12:10pm and the money order itself wasn't found until 7pm.

That the identity of the Dallas postal worker who found the money order stub was never revealed.

That postal form 2162 requiring a delivery receipt for all firearms received through the US Post Office be filled out and maintained for 4 years was never made.

That postal form 1508 requiring the shipper of firearms through the US Post office fill out a declaration statement describing the firearms shipped and the record of that statement kept for 4 years was never made.

That part 3 of the Post office Box application, listing persons other than the applicant authorized to receive mail at a PO Box, the record of which was required to be kept for 2 years, was destroyed.

That no clerk in the Dallas Post Office was ever found who remembered handing a long package to the most famous and most recognizable assassin of the 20th century.

That Waldman 7 is not signed or stamped "paid in full".

And you can ignore all of the above mountain of evidence because ---- we KNOW Oswald's handwriting was on the Money Order.

It really makes you wonder what's wrong with these people.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Gil Jesus