A Couple of Unrelated Questions

[Thomas Graves]

Question #1: Could Oswald whistle loudly?

Background: Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he heard a shrill whistle and saw a man he later identified as LHO run down the grassy knoll from the direction of the TSBD and get into a light green Rambler station wagon that was coming slowly west on Elm Street. Personally, I can't whistle like that (but I can skip a stone over a pond LOL), and I'm wondering if any of Oswald's Marine buddies or any of his family members or other friends have ever said that he was able to whistle in the way Craig describes...

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Edited October 20, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Question #1: Could Oswald whistle loudly?

Background: Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he heard a shrill whistle and saw a man he later identified as LHO run down the grassy knoll from the direction of the TSBD and get into a light green Rambler station wagon that was coming slowly west on Elm Street. Personally, I can't whistle like that (but I can skip a stone over a pond LOL), and I'm wondering if any of Oswald's Marine buddies or any of his family members or other friends have ever said that he was able to whistle in the way Craig describes...

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

No takers? Hmmm. Interesting. I'm a bit surprised, actally. Guess I'll just keep bumpin' 'er back to page one until I get at least one constructive/informative comment...

Now regarding the whistling question, I do realize that there are two basic possibilities: 1) Craig saw LHO get into the Rambler station wagon, and 2) Craig saw someone else (who looked a lot like LHO) get into the Rambler station wagon. either LHO (or an accomplice) whistled, or the Oswald look-alike (or an accomplice) whistled, So! (to paraphrase Purvis), given the fact that most of us here already think that Craig saw an Oswald look-alike, it doesn't matter to us whether or not LHO could whistle, especially it's nearly impossible to "prove a negative" anyway. So! Sorry for the stupid question! Now, what about Vinson's story about the LHO double and the C-54 cargo plane??

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Edited October 20, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

dupe

Edited October 20, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Considering the nature of the threat. I''ll give it a go. For the greater good...

Question #1: Could Oswald whistle loudly?

Background: Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said he heard a shrill whistle and saw a man he later identified as LHO run down the grassy knoll from the direction of the TSBD and get into a light green Rambler station wagon that was coming slowly west on Elm Street. Personally, I can't whistle like that (but I can skip a stone over a pond LOL), and I'm wondering if any of Oswald's Marine buddies or any of his family members or other friends have ever said that he was able to whistle in the way Craig describes...

No one in his family seems to have been asked the question by investigators or commissions of inquiry. It should be the first question asked of any witness regarding any crime, imo. Why not contact Marina and ask her? If you could also let everyone know how you determined the veracity of her answer, that would be great, too.

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Not saying Vinson's story is true (I don't know), but both military and CIA used cargo carriers for "unofficial" human cargo.

Or maybe he was just a member of a Cargo Cult.

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

No takers? Hmmm. Interesting. I'm a bit surprised, actally. Guess I'll just keep bumpin' 'er back to page one until I get at least one constructive/informative comment...

Now regarding the whistling question, I do realize that there are two basic possibilities: 1) Craig saw LHO get into the Rambler station wagon, and 2) Craig saw someone else (who looked a lot like LHO) get into the Rambler station wagon. So, either LHO or an accomplice whistled, or the Oswald look-alike (or an accomplice) whistled...

Exactly.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Not saying Vinson's story is true (I don't know), but both military and CIA used cargo carriers for "unofficial" human cargo.

[...]

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Thanks for responding, Greg.

It's interesting to know that the CIA (and the military) would use large cargo planes to transport (even small quantities of?) "unofficial" human cargo. Now, do you know if they used military-style cargo planes exclusively for such purposes, or did they occasionally use much smaller planes, perhaps even of civilian style? What I'm wondering about here, Greg, is the strategy and feasibility (sp?) and plausibility of the CIA's using such a large, conspicuous plane as a four-engine C-54 cargo plane to land on a flood plain of the Trinity River in the suburbs of Dallas, idling, making a half-circle turn on the flood plain, picking up a couple of passengers, and taking off again. Personally, I think it is perfectly plausible because in the aftermath of the assassination, Dallasites (assuming, of course, that they were capable of interpreting their perceptions and observations in a normal, "reasonable" way) probably would have been more suspicious of a small plane's landing on the flood plain and taking off again after just a few minutes than they would of a C-54's doing the same. But perhaps I'm not being reasonable here. I'm just thinking that a large military-style plane like a C-54 would have given the impression of being on an officially-sanctioned flight as part of a legitimate respose to what had happened a few hours earlier in Dealey Plaza.

(Of course, another big reason for the CIA to use a C-54 was that it did have a 4,000 mile range...)

Comments, anyone?

--Odd Tommy

Edited October 20, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

OK, no response, so... next questions!!

#3) Who was the person who evidently called the DPD and advised them to go search the A.L.T. for the murderer of J.D. Tippitt? Was that person ever identified or did they ever come forward?

#4) Was the man who resembled Boris Pash at Parkland Hospital ever identified? (I think he was photographed leaving the hospital with LBJ.)

-more to come-

--Odd Tommy

[Zach Robertson]

#4) Was the man who resembled Boris Pash at Parkland Hospital ever identified? (I think he was photographed leaving the hospital with LBJ.)

Hi Thomas,

I am pretty sure the man who exited Parkland Hospital in between President Johnson and Secret Service Agent Rufus Youngblood was Forrest V. Sorrels an Agent of the Secret Service's Dallas office.

Zach

[Greg Parker]

[...]

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Not saying Vinson's story is true (I don't know), but both military and CIA used cargo carriers for "unofficial" human cargo.

[...]

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Thanks for responding, Greg.

It's interesting to know that the CIA (and the military) would use large cargo planes to transport (even small quantities of?) "unofficial" human cargo. Now, do you know if they used military-style cargo planes exclusively for such purposes, or did they occasionally use much smaller planes, perhaps even of civilian style? What I'm wondering about here, Greg, is the strategy and feasibility (sp?) and plausibility of the CIA's using such a large, conspicuous plane as a four-engine C-54 cargo plane to land on a flood plain of the Trinity River in the suburbs of Dallas, idling, making a half-circle turn on the flood plain, picking up a couple of passengers, and taking off again. Personally, I think it is perfectly plausible because in the aftermath of the assassination, Dallasites (assuming, of course, that they were capable of interpreting their perceptions and observations in a normal, "reasonable" way) probably would have been more suspicious of a small plane's landing on the flood plain and taking off again after just a few minutes than they would of a C-54's doing the same. But perhaps I'm not being reasonable here. I'm just thinking that a large military-style plane like a C-54 would have given the impression of being on an officially-sanctioned flight as part of a legitimate respose to what had happened a few hours earlier in Dealey Plaza.

(Of course, another big reason for the CIA to use a C-54 was that it did have a 4,000 mile range...)

Comments, anyone?

--Odd Tommy

"The CIA used Douglas C-54 transports to deliver people, supplies, and arms from Florida at night...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

[William Kelly]

[...]

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Not saying Vinson's story is true (I don't know), but both military and CIA used cargo carriers for "unofficial" human cargo.

[...]

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Thanks for responding, Greg.

It's interesting to know that the CIA (and the military) would use large cargo planes to transport (even small quantities of?) "unofficial" human cargo. Now, do you know if they used military-style cargo planes exclusively for such purposes, or did they occasionally use much smaller planes, perhaps even of civilian style? What I'm wondering about here, Greg, is the strategy and feasibility (sp?) and plausibility of the CIA's using such a large, conspicuous plane as a four-engine C-54 cargo plane to land on a flood plain of the Trinity River in the suburbs of Dallas, idling, making a half-circle turn on the flood plain, picking up a couple of passengers, and taking off again. Personally, I think it is perfectly plausible because in the aftermath of the assassination, Dallasites (assuming, of course, that they were capable of interpreting their perceptions and observations in a normal, "reasonable" way) probably would have been more suspicious of a small plane's landing on the flood plain and taking off again after just a few minutes than they would of a C-54's doing the same. But perhaps I'm not being reasonable here. I'm just thinking that a large military-style plane like a C-54 would have given the impression of being on an officially-sanctioned flight as part of a legitimate respose to what had happened a few hours earlier in Dealey Plaza.

(Of course, another big reason for the CIA to use a C-54 was that it did have a 4,000 mile range...)

Comments, anyone?

--Odd Tommy

"The CIA used Douglas C-54 transports to deliver people, supplies, and arms from Florida at night...."

http://en.wikipedia....f_Pigs_Invasion

Also see:

JFKcountercoup: CIAir

JFKcountercoup: Then Came the CIA - Southern Air Transport

If I remember correctly, Vinsen said that the plane had specific markings on the tail - a logo that designated it a CIA airline.

Can that logo be identified?

bk

[William Kelly]

[...]

Question #2: If the Robert Vinson story is true, I'm wondering why the CIA used such a large plane as a four engine C-54 cargo plane to fly the Oswald look-alike from the flood plain of the Trinity River in Dallas to Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico. Was it because of the long distnce it ended up flying from Andrews AFB near Washington D.C. to somewhere over Nebraska, then turning south towards Dallas when Kennedy was hit at 12:29 PM and and picking up the Oswald double in Dallas and taking off again and flying to Roswell AFB? I looked it up and the total distance is about 2200 miles... Couldn't a smaller plane have accomplished the same journey?

Not saying Vinson's story is true (I don't know), but both military and CIA used cargo carriers for "unofficial" human cargo.

[...]

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Thanks for responding, Greg.

It's interesting to know that the CIA (and the military) would use large cargo planes to transport (even small quantities of?) "unofficial" human cargo. Now, do you know if they used military-style cargo planes exclusively for such purposes, or did they occasionally use much smaller planes, perhaps even of civilian style? What I'm wondering about here, Greg, is the strategy and feasibility (sp?) and plausibility of the CIA's using such a large, conspicuous plane as a four-engine C-54 cargo plane to land on a flood plain of the Trinity River in the suburbs of Dallas, idling, making a half-circle turn on the flood plain, picking up a couple of passengers, and taking off again. Personally, I think it is perfectly plausible because in the aftermath of the assassination, Dallasites (assuming, of course, that they were capable of interpreting their perceptions and observations in a normal, "reasonable" way) probably would have been more suspicious of a small plane's landing on the flood plain and taking off again after just a few minutes than they would of a C-54's doing the same. But perhaps I'm not being reasonable here. I'm just thinking that a large military-style plane like a C-54 would have given the impression of being on an officially-sanctioned flight as part of a legitimate respose to what had happened a few hours earlier in Dealey Plaza.

(Of course, another big reason for the CIA to use a C-54 was that it did have a 4,000 mile range...)

Comments, anyone?

--Odd Tommy

"The CIA used Douglas C-54 transports to deliver people, supplies, and arms from Florida at night...."

http://en.wikipedia....f_Pigs_Invasion

Also see:

JFKcountercoup: CIAir

JFKcountercoup: Then Came the CIA - Southern Air Transport

If I remember correctly, Vinsen said that the plane had specific markings on the tail - a logo that designated it a CIA airline.

Can that logo be identified?

bk

[Thomas Graves]

#4) Was the man who resembled Boris Pash at Parkland Hospital ever identified? (I think he was photographed leaving the hospital with LBJ.)

Hi Thomas,

I am pretty sure the man who exited Parkland Hospital in between President Johnson and Secret Service Agent Rufus Youngblood was Forrest V. Sorrels an Agent of the Secret Service's Dallas office.

Zach

Thanks, Zach

I can't seem to find any photographs of Forrest V. Sorrels on the Internet. If you have any photos of him, could you please post at least one of them?

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Also see:

JFKcountercoup: CIAir

JFKcountercoup: Then Came the CIA - Southern Air Transport

If I remember correctly, Vinson said that the plane had specific markings on the tail - a logo that designated it a CIA airline.

Can that logo be identified?

bk

Well, Bill, in JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglas writes (on page 299), "Unlike all the other planes Vinson had hitched a ride on, the C-54 bore no military markings or serial numbers. Its only identification was on its tail--a rust brown graphic of an egg-shaped earth, crossed by white grid marks." (For this, Douglas cites Johnson and Roe, Flight From Dallas, page 23.)

Then, on page 302, Douglas writes,

"For the last year and a half of his Air Force enlistment, Vinson served as the administrative supervisor for base supply of the CIA's SR-71/Blackbird spy plane project at Site 51 (note: Site 51 is 40 miles north of Las Vegas, Nevada)." .... "While Vinson was working at Site 51, he saw a C-54 like the one that flew the second Oswald out of Dallas. On its tail was the same rust-brown graphic of an egg-shaped earth crossed by white grid marks, that he had seen on the C-54 he had boarded at Andrews (AFB near Washington, D.C.). An Air Force sergeant at Site 51 confirmed the source of the plane he was looking at.

'CIA,' he said." --here Douglas cites Flight From Dallas, page 68, as well as "Vinson's affidavit, page 43."

--Odd Tommy

For an interesting article about a CIA C-54 crash in Nevada on November 15, 1955, google "CIA C-54 Crash on Mt Charleston"

Edited October 21, 2011 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

Also see:

JFKcountercoup: CIAir

JFKcountercoup: Then Came the CIA - Southern Air Transport

If I remember correctly, Vinson said that the plane had specific markings on the tail - a logo that designated it a CIA airline.

Can that logo be identified?

bk

Well, Bill, in JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglas writes (on page 299), "Unlike all the other planes Vinson had hitched a ride on, the C-54 bore no military markings or serial numbers. Its only identification was on its tail--a rust brown graphic of an egg-shaped earth, crossed by white grid marks." (For this, Douglas cites Johnson and Roe, Flight From Dallas, page 23.)

Then, on page 302, Douglas writes,

"For the last year and a half of his Air Force enlistment, Vinson served as the administrative supervisor for base supply of the CIA's SR-71/Blackbird spy plane project at Site 51 (note: Site 51 is 40 miles north of Las Vegas, Nevada)." .... "While Vinson was working at Site 51, he saw a C-54 like the one that flew the second Oswald out of Dallas. On its tail was the same rust-brown graphic of an egg-shaped earth crossed by white grid marks, that he had seen on the C-54 he had boarded at Andrews (AFB near Washington, D.C.). An Air Force sergeant at Site 51 confirmed the source of the plane he was looking at.

'CIA,' he said." --here Douglas cites Flight From Dallas, page 68, as well as "Vinson's affidavit, page 43."

--Odd Tommy

For an interesting article about a CIA C-54 crash in Nevada on November 15, 1955, google "CIA C-54 Crash on Mt Charleston"

If you read the CIAIR article - there were five CIA propriety airlines mentioned - all belonging to a group association, and I would bet that one of those airlines used the egg earth with white grids as a logo.

BK

[Chris Davidson]

OK, no response, so... next questions!!

#3) Who was the person who evidently called the DPD and advised them to go search the A.L.T. for the murderer of J.D. Tippitt? Was that person ever identified or did they ever come forward?

#4) Was the man who resembled Boris Pash at Parkland Hospital ever identified? (I think he was photographed leaving the hospital with LBJ.)

-more to come-

--Odd Tommy

Thomas,

LBJ coming out of Parkland.

Top photo was altered by the TV program.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/lbj.png

chris

[Thomas Graves]

OK, no response, so... next questions!!

#3) Who was the person who evidently called the DPD and advised them to go search the A.L.T. for the murderer of J.D. Tippitt? Was that person ever identified or did they ever come forward?

#4) Was the man who resembled Boris Pash at Parkland Hospital ever identified? (I think he was photographed leaving the hospital with LBJ.)

-more to come-

--Odd Tommy

Thomas,

LBJ coming out of Parkland.

Top photo was altered by the TV program.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/lbj.png

chris

Chris,

Darn, that's not the photo I was think of. The photo I was referring to shows a dude who looks a lot like Boris Pash in civillian clothes, accompanying LBJ somewhere... I thought it was at Parkland Hospital. Seems to me the "Pash" figure in the photo was wearing a dark-colored suit and hat and his face was "in profile" and he was looking down as he walked.

Thanks,

--Odd Tommy

Edited October 21, 2011 by Thomas Graves