The "CLIFTON" Version of the Air Force One Tapes Yields Important Information

[Michael Griffin]

Subject: AF1 Radio Tapes & Collins Radio

Links to Doug Horne's blog post and my recent blog posts on the AF1 radio transmission tapes and the Collins Radio Connections

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Doesn't anybody want to talk about the recently discovered Clifton copy of the radio tapes?

Here's what Doug Horne has to say about some of it:

Air Force One Radio Transcripts - Reopen KENNEDY CASE!

Bill,

The Clifton AF1 transcripts are interesting, particularly the newfound information about Col. Dorman trying to get in contact with Gen. LeMay.

One question for you, Bill. Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but if you wouldn't mind hazarding a guess, what percentage of all of the AF1 communications do you think are missing from the Clifton recording? 5%, 10%? Also, do you think it is possible that the complete recording still exists (among the materials to be released in 2017)?

Thanks, Bill.

Mike

[David Lifton]

Subject: AF1 Radio Tapes & Collins Radio

Links to Doug Horne's blog post and my recent blog posts on the AF1 radio transmission tapes and the Collins Radio Connections

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Doesn't anybody want to talk about the recently discovered Clifton copy of the radio tapes?

Here's what Doug Horne has to say about some of it:

Air Force One Radio Transcripts - Reopen KENNEDY CASE!

Bill,

The Clifton AF1 transcripts are interesting, particularly the newfound information about Col. Dorman trying to get in contact with Gen. LeMay.

One question for you, Bill. Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but if you wouldn't mind hazarding a guess, what percentage of all of the AF1 communications do you think are missing from the Clifton recording? 5%, 10%? Also, do you think it is possible that the complete recording still exists (among the materials to be released in 2017)?

Thanks, Bill.

Mike

Hello Mike,

As I understand it, there were three (3) channels going, at 2 hrs and 15 minutes per channel.

That would mean a total of six hours and 45 minutes worth of radio traffic.

Therefore (and now relying on the "Clifton version" of the tape) there are over 3 hours of material which are missing.

By no means am I saying that every single minute of that 3 hours is critically important, but I think quite a bit is indeed very important.

Relying purely on memory here (from my past reading of various memoirs), I believe that there would be critical transmissions between Lyndon Johnson and either McGeorge Bundy and/or Secretary Defense McNamara. And Lord only knows what else is gone.

If what Theodore White originally reported (in The Making of the President 1964) is accurate, there may well be voice transmissions echoing the theme that was later written, by Katzenbach, that it is important to make the world believe that this was the world of one man, of Oswald, etc etc. Of course, I don't know the details, and am --to some extent--speculating, but I'm providing here my "best guess" as to the sort of transmissions that may be on the original fully unredacted tapes.

I also call your attention to the information in Manchester's book, DEATH OF A PRESIDENT, which describes how the order was given that the locks be changed on critical White House safes for all information, starting at 1 p.m., CST (as I recall). In other words, a line was being drawn between the what Kennedy (and his brother) "knew" and what the new President would (or legitimately could) know.

In a word, I think some of these transmissions would be nothing less than explosive (and, to use current vernacular, be of a "game-changing" nature) and lead directly to a debate as to who knew what, and when, etc.

Do I believe that the original unredacted tapes exist? Yes, I do--but not necessarily in government possession, and I make this statement simply based on human nature. Very likely, there's someone "out there" who made copies of materials that he (or she) very likely realized were historically important and irreplaceable. But besides the "private bootlegger" scenario, I also wonder what might actually exist in National Security Council files, and whether that might be a bureaucratic hiding place for critical data. I say that based on a reading of David Belin's "Final Verdict" which, as I recall, laid out his battle to obtain information from those files about the Castro plots.

So. . .those are my thoughts about the audio.

(1) Hours are missing

(2) They contain critically important information

(3) They were deliberately edited to eliminate the critical conversations that Lydon Johnson had with McGeorge Bundy (JFK's National Security adviser) and/or McNamara, which would bear directly on the legitimacy of his accession to the Presidency, depending on what "version" of the assassination one believed in.

DSL

3/6/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest Robert Morrow]

General Chester V. Clifton also accompanied Lyndon Johnson on his New Year's Eve adventures on 12/31/63. That was the night LBJ choppered into Austin from the LBJ Ranch to make the rounds at parties and he ended up the night at the White House press party at the Driskill Hotel.

LBJ kept a room, #254 on the Mezzanine level, at the Driskill on retainer for his trysts. LBJ's trysts with Madeleine were often of the 10 to 15 to 30 minute variety, so there was plenty of time for him to have some "quickie sex" with a favored mistress and tell her some illuminating things re: the JFK assassination.

That was also the night that Lyndon Johnson told his mistress Madeleine Duncan Brown that the Dallas, TX oil men she knew and the CIA murdered JFK. LBJ only left himself out.

LBJ kept a daily diary which can be viewed on the LBJ library website. Looking up 12/31/63 the following is noted:

8:10 Depart LBJ Ranch via... chopper with Don Thomas, Sandy Shapiro, General

Clifton

Gerry Whittington, VM, MF To Austin

Forty Acres Club

Frank Erwin's residence

White House Press [the press party was at the Driskill]

Headliners Club

12:10 To LBJ via Chopper w/ A.W. Moursund, Gerry W., General Clifton, VM, MF

In the night of 12/31/63, just 6 weeks after the JFK assassination, Madeleine asked Lyndon Johnson:

"Lyndon, you know that a lot of people believe you had something to do with President Kennedy's assassination."

He shot up out of bed and began pacing and waving his arms screaming like a madman. I was scared!

"That's bull___, Madeleine Brown!" he yelled. "Don't tell me you believe that ____!"

"Of course not." I answered meekly, trying to cool his temper.

"It was Texas oil and those %$%& renegade intelligence bastards in Washington." [said Lyndon Johnson, the new president; Texas in the Morning, p. 189]

[LBJ told this to Madeleine on 1/1/64 in the locally famous Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX in room #254. They spent New Year's Eve `64 together here (12/31/63). Room #254 was the room that LBJ used to have rendezvous’ with his girlfriends - today it is known as the LBJ Room, and rents for $600-1,000/night as a Presidential suite at the Driskill; located on the Mezzanine Level.]

Edited March 7, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[Michael Hogan]

In the night of 12/31/63, just 6 weeks after the JFK assassination, Madeleine asked Lyndon Johnson:

"Lyndon, you know that a lot of people believe you had something to do with President Kennedy's assassination."

He shot up out of bed and began pacing and waving his arms screaming like a madman. I was scared!

"That's bull___, Madeleine Brown!" he yelled. "Don't tell me you believe that ____!"

"Of course not." I answered meekly, trying to cool his temper.

"It was Texas oil and those %$%& renegade intelligence bastards in Washington." [said Lyndon Johnson, the new president; Texas in the Morning, p. 189]

[LBJ told this to Madeleine on 1/1/64 in the locally famous Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX in room #254. They spent New Year's Eve `64 together here (12/31/63). Room #254 was the room that LBJ used to have rendezvous’ with his girlfriends - today it is known as the LBJ Room, and rents for $600-1,000/night as a Presidential suite at the Driskill; located on the Mezzanine Level.]

How many times has Robert Morrow posted this apocryphal story on this Forum? One hundred? Two hundred? He often does so in a context that bears no relevance to the topic.

Repeating it incessantly a thousand times will not give Brown's story any additional probity. Morrow has called this account the number one evidence of conspiracy in the murder of President Kennedy.

Even a beginning student of the Kennedy assassination would recognize the absurdity of such a claim.

And I don't believe everything Madeleine says. For example I think she might be inserting herself into a party on 11/21/63 that may or may not have happened as she related. I am undecided on the Murchison party.

Robert Morrow is clearly a Madeleine Brown groupie and it seriously undermines whatever credibility he is seeking to establish on this Forum.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

In the night of 12/31/63, just 6 weeks after the JFK assassination, Madeleine asked Lyndon Johnson:

"Lyndon, you know that a lot of people believe you had something to do with President Kennedy's assassination."

He shot up out of bed and began pacing and waving his arms screaming like a madman. I was scared!

"That's bull___, Madeleine Brown!" he yelled. "Don't tell me you believe that ____!"

"Of course not." I answered meekly, trying to cool his temper.

"It was Texas oil and those %$%& renegade intelligence bastards in Washington." [said Lyndon Johnson, the new president; Texas in the Morning, p. 189]

[LBJ told this to Madeleine on 1/1/64 in the locally famous Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX in room #254. They spent New Year's Eve `64 together here (12/31/63). Room #254 was the room that LBJ used to have rendezvous’ with his girlfriends - today it is known as the LBJ Room, and rents for $600-1,000/night as a Presidential suite at the Driskill; located on the Mezzanine Level.]

How many times has Robert Morrow posted this apocryphal story on this Forum? One hundred? Two hundred? He often does so in a context that bears no relevance to the topic.

Repeating it incessantly a thousand times will not give Brown's story any additional probity. Morrow has called this account the number one evidence of conspiracy in the murder of President Kennedy.

Even a beginning student of the Kennedy assassination would recognize the absurdity of such a claim.

And I don't believe everything Madeleine says. For example I think she might be inserting herself into a party on 11/21/63 that may or may not have happened as she related. I am undecided on the Murchison party.

Robert Morrow is clearly a Madeleine Brown groupie and it seriously undermines whatever credibility he is seeking to establish on this Forum.

Michael, I the post words of Lyndon Johnson to Madeleine Brown on 12/31/63 in places were I think it is appropriate because I think it is the single greatest piece of evidence to understanding the JFK assassination.

I do not believe everything that Madeleine Brown says; I think she embellishes her story at times, but that the core essence of it is true. Michael Hogan, did you ever meet Madeleine Brown? She has been vetted by over a generation of JFK researchers and the vast majority of the ones who met her think she is telling God's truth.

Key point here: Lyndon Johnson is confirmed as being at the Driskill Hotel on the night of 12/31/63. And that is exactly where Madeleine Brown places him. That is highly significant and a confirmation of her story. So, if folks are going to pick on Madeleine Brown over the Murchison party and say it never happened, then we need to listen to Madeleine if a key element of her story - her and LBJ at the Driskill Hotel on 12/31/63 -checks out.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[William Kelly]

Subject: AF1 Radio Tapes & Collins Radio

Links to Doug Horne's blog post and my recent blog posts on the AF1 radio transmission tapes and the Collins Radio Connections

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Doesn't anybody want to talk about the recently discovered Clifton copy of the radio tapes?

Here's what Doug Horne has to say about some of it:

Air Force One Radio Transcripts - Reopen KENNEDY CASE!

Bill,

The Clifton AF1 transcripts are interesting, particularly the newfound information about Col. Dorman trying to get in contact with Gen. LeMay.

One question for you, Bill. Forgive me if this has already been addressed, but if you wouldn't mind hazarding a guess, what percentage of all of the AF1 communications do you think are missing from the Clifton recording? 5%, 10%? Also, do you think it is possible that the complete recording still exists (among the materials to be released in 2017)?

Thanks, Bill.

Mike

Hello Mike,

As I understand it, there were three (3) channels going, at 2 hrs and 15 minutes per channel.

That would mean a total of six hours and 45 minutes worth of radio traffic.

Therefore (and now relying on the "Clifton version" of the tape) there are over 3 hours of material which are missing.

By no means am I saying that every single minute of that 3 hours is critically important, but I think quite a bit is indeed very important.

Relying purely on memory here (from my past reading of various memoirs), I believe that there would be critical transmissions between Lyndon Johnson and either McGeorge Bundy and/or Secretary Defense McNamara. And Lord only knows what else is gone.

If what Theodore White originally reported (in The Making of the President 1964) is accurate, there may well be voice transmissions echoing the theme that was later written, by Katzenbach, that it is important to make the world believe that this was the world of one man, of Oswald, etc etc. Of course, I don't know the details, and am --to some extent--speculating, but I'm providing here my "best guess" as to the sort of transmissions that may be on the original fully unredacted tapes.

I also call your attention to the information in Manchester's book, DEATH OF A PRESIDENT, which describes how the order was given that the locks be changed on critical White House safes for all information, starting at 1 p.m., CST (as I recall). In other words, a line was being drawn between the what Kennedy (and his brother) "knew" and what the new President would (or legitimately could) know.

In a word, I think some of these transmissions would be nothing less than explosive (and, to use current vernacular, be of a "game-changing" nature) and lead directly to a debate as to who knew what, and when, etc.

Do I believe that the original unredacted tapes exist? Yes, I do--but not necessarily in government possession, and I make this statement simply based on human nature. Very likely, there's someone "out there" who made copies of materials that he (or she) very likely realized were historically important and irreplaceable. But besides the "private bootlegger" scenario, I also wonder what might actually exist in National Security Council files, and whether that might be a bureaucratic hiding place for critical data. I say that based on a reading of David Belin's "Final Verdict" which, as I recall, laid out his battle to obtain information from those files about the Castro plots.

So. . .those are my thoughts about the audio.

(1) Hours are missing

(2) They contain critically important information

(3) They were deliberately edited to eliminate the critical conversations that Lydon Johnson had with McGeorge Bundy (JFK's National Security adviser) and/or McNamara, which would bear directly on the legitimacy of his accession to the Presidency, depending on what "version" of the assassination one believed in.

DSL

3/6/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

I agree with DSL 100% on this count, and since we know White, Manchester and Salinger were given access to a transcript of the unedited tapes and they each quote different portions of it that aren't on the extant tape, then the most important parts that they identified are not on it.

And yes, there is most definately copies of the unedited tapes out there, as there is no record of their destruction, their historic value would be recognized by anyone ordered to destroy them, and the fact that anyone with the proper equipment could have heard and recorded the conversations, and private citizens, military personnel and foreign governments (including Cuban Lourdes station, Canada, Israel and Canada) certainly have copies in their archives though the governments would be reluctant to admit they had them.

We will eventually locate copies of the unedited tapes. Bet on it.

And those interested in discussing Madeline Brown and LBJ please do it on a thread other than this one - which is dedicated to what is on the new Clifton tape.

Thanks,

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited March 7, 2012 by William Kelly

[Michael Hogan]

And those interested in discussing Madeline Brown and LBJ please do it on a thread other than this one - which is dedicated to what is on the new Clifton tape.

Your request is a polite one and I'm certainly going to bow out after this post. But I can't let you get away with leaving the impression

that there is anyone other than Robert Morrow interested in discussing Madeleine Brown and LBJ on this thread.

It is Robert Morrow that introduced Madeleine Brown to this thread. I think I was within my rights to call him out for doing so.

How many times has Robert Morrow posted this apocryphal story on this Forum? One hundred? Two hundred? He often does so in a context that bears no relevance to the topic.

Repeating it incessantly a thousand times will not give Brown's story any additional probity.....

The point is, Bill, it is not just this thread but countless others where Morrow introduces the Madeleine Brown Driskill Hotel story when it has no bearing on the topic.

He obviously feels as if Madeleine Brown is appropriate to the subject of the Air Force One tapes. In fact, with his logic or lack thereof, any topic dealing with the JFK assassination is fair game:

Michael, I the post words of Lyndon Johnson to Madeleine Brown on 12/31/63 in places were I think it is appropriate because I think it is the single greatest piece of evidence to understanding the JFK assassination.

And finally Bill, evidently you feel comfortable in straying from the Clifton tape topic yourself and equally comfortable in policing others:

David, the Sixth Floor assassins knew the Motorcade was behind scheduled and knew exactly when it was coming because the pilot car,

a half mile a head of the main motorcade stopped under the TSBD windows and told the policeman on the corner when the motorcade was coming.

BK

JFKcountercoup

The Sixth floor window is 60 - 70 feet from the corner, 30 yards - within hearing distance if there are no other sounds, and I don't know that there were any.

So when the Pilot car, half mile ahead of the motorcade - says to the cop on the corner, and they pulled over to be close and stopped, and said the motorcade was less than five minutes behind them, they also told the Sixth Floor sniper, who should have been able to hear that. Or at least surmise that the pilot car was not far ahead of the motorcade.

Oswald wasn't on the Sixth Floor at the time.

There was probably radio communications going on as well.

Also, the Sixth Floor sniper, according to witnesses on the street, didn't look down Houston but watched the Grassy Knoll area.

I would like to bring this thread back around to the Clifton Tape, if that is possible.

BK

At least I didn't call anyone an idiot.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Michael Hogan

[Michael Griffin]

A quick heads-up to all:

Len Osanic has scheduled Doug Horne as a guest on Black Op Radio this evening (3/8/2012). Their topic of discussion will be the AF1 tapes.

[William Kelly]

No Michael, you didn't call anyone an idiot, as you are the ultimate gentleman, and I wish others would behave and think as clearly as you do.

And you are correct about Morrow interjecting Madeline Brown into every discussion being annoying.

And Robert, thanks for the heads up on Doug Horne on Black Op Radio Tonight.

Bill Kelly

JFKcountercoup

Edited March 8, 2012 by William Kelly

[Joseph Backes]

Hello Mike,

As I understand it, there were three (3) channels going, at 2 hrs and 15 minutes per channel.

That would mean a total of six hours and 45 minutes worth of radio traffic.

Therefore (and now relying on the "Clifton version" of the tape) there are over 3 hours of material which are missing.

By no means am I saying that every single minute of that 3 hours is critically important, but I think quite a bit is indeed very important.

Relying purely on memory here (from my past reading of various memoirs), I believe that there would be critical transmissions between Lyndon Johnson and either McGeorge Bundy and/or Secretary Defense McNamara. And Lord only knows what else is gone.

If what Theodore White originally reported (in The Making of the President 1964) is accurate, there may well be voice transmissions echoing the theme that was later written, by Katzenbach, that it is important to make the world believe that this was the world of one man, of Oswald, etc etc. Of course, I don't know the details, and am --to some extent--speculating, but I'm providing here my "best guess" as to the sort of transmissions that may be on the original fully unredacted tapes.

I also call your attention to the information in Manchester's book, DEATH OF A PRESIDENT, which describes how the order was given that the locks be changed on critical White House safes for all information, starting at 1 p.m., CST (as I recall). In other words, a line was being drawn between the what Kennedy (and his brother) "knew" and what the new President would (or legitimately could) know.

In a word, I think some of these transmissions would be nothing less than explosive (and, to use current vernacular, be of a "game-changing" nature) and lead directly to a debate as to who knew what, and when, etc.

Do I believe that the original unredacted tapes exist? Yes, I do--but not necessarily in government possession, and I make this statement simply based on human nature. Very likely, there's someone "out there" who made copies of materials that he (or she) very likely realized were historically important and irreplaceable. But besides the "private bootlegger" scenario, I also wonder what might actually exist in National Security Council files, and whether that might be a bureaucratic hiding place for critical data. I say that based on a reading of David Belin's "Final Verdict" which, as I recall, laid out his battle to obtain information from those files about the Castro plots.

So. . .those are my thoughts about the audio.

(1) Hours are missing

(2) They contain critically important information

(3) They were deliberately edited to eliminate the critical conversations that Lydon Johnson had with McGeorge Bundy (JFK's National Security adviser) and/or McNamara, which would bear directly on the legitimacy of his accession to the Presidency, depending on what "version" of the assassination one believed in.

DSL

3/6/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

....WORK of one man, not world of one man.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Evan Burton

[Joseph Backes]

Hello Mike,

As I understand it, there were three (3) channels going, at 2 hrs and 15 minutes per channel.

That would mean a total of six hours and 45 minutes worth of radio traffic.

Therefore (and now relying on the "Clifton version" of the tape) there are over 3 hours of material which are missing.

By no means am I saying that every single minute of that 3 hours is critically important, but I think quite a bit is indeed very important.

Relying purely on memory here (from my past reading of various memoirs), I believe that there would be critical transmissions between Lyndon Johnson and either McGeorge Bundy and/or Secretary Defense McNamara. And Lord only knows what else is gone.

If what Theodore White originally reported (in The Making of the President 1964) is accurate, there may well be voice transmissions echoing the theme that was later written, by Katzenbach, that it is important to make the world believe that this was the world of one man, of Oswald, etc etc. Of course, I don't know the details, and am --to some extent--speculating, but I'm providing here my "best guess" as to the sort of transmissions that may be on the original fully unredacted tapes.

I also call your attention to the information in Manchester's book, DEATH OF A PRESIDENT, which describes how the order was given that the locks be changed on critical White House safes for all information, starting at 1 p.m., CST (as I recall). In other words, a line was being drawn between the what Kennedy (and his brother) "knew" and what the new President would (or legitimately could) know.

In a word, I think some of these transmissions would be nothing less than explosive (and, to use current vernacular, be of a "game-changing" nature) and lead directly to a debate as to who knew what, and when, etc.

Do I believe that the original unredacted tapes exist? Yes, I do--but not necessarily in government possession, and I make this statement simply based on human nature. Very likely, there's someone "out there" who made copies of materials that he (or she) very likely realized were historically important and irreplaceable. But besides the "private bootlegger" scenario, I also wonder what might actually exist in National Security Council files, and whether that might be a bureaucratic hiding place for critical data. I say that based on a reading of David Belin's "Final Verdict" which, as I recall, laid out his battle to obtain information from those files about the Castro plots.

So. . .those are my thoughts about the audio.

(1) Hours are missing

(2) They contain critically important information

(3) They were deliberately edited to eliminate the critical conversations that Lydon Johnson had with McGeorge Bundy (JFK's National Security adviser) and/or McNamara, which would bear directly on the legitimacy of his accession to the Presidency, depending on what "version" of the assassination one believed in.

DSL

3/6/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

I agree with DSL 100% on this count. And since we know White, Manchester and Salinger were given access to a transcript of the unedited tapes and they each quote different portions of it that aren't on the extant tape, then the most important parts that they identified are not on it.

And yes, there are most definately copies of the unedited tapes out there, as there is no record of their destruction, their historic value would be recognized by anyone ordered to destroy them, and the fact that anyone with the proper equipment could have heard and recorded the conversations, and private citizens, military personnel and foreign governments (including Cuban Lourdes station, Canada, Israel and Canada) certainly have copies in their archives though the governments would be reluctant to admit they had them.

We will eventually locate copies of the unedited tapes. Bet on it.

And those interested in discussing Madeline Brown and LBJ please do it on a thread other than this one - which is dedicated to what is on the new Clifton tape.

Thanks,

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I want to ask about the sentence of yours that I put in red.

I want to make a point here as several questions immediately come to mind, three different authors, in three different books, were given a transcript. This transcript was of Air Force One transmissions on November 22, 1963 after the assassination. I want to clarify some things that I think we're making assumptions about. The biggest assumption is that all communications from Air Force One and to Air Force One were collected into one product, which we're calling The Air Force One Tape. A transcript was made of that. And that one transcript was given to White, Manchester, and Salinger.

How do we know that White, Manchester, and Salinger were given access to the exact same transcript?

Each author referenced a part of the transcript, not necessarily the same part, given to them that we cannot hear on the extant tape. Correct? So, there could be three or more parts of a transcript we cannot match to the tape.

Is it possible that White, Manchester, and Salinger were not given ONE TRANSCRIPT, but rather each got a transcript that was modified, or edited for the specific author? In other words White may have seen a transcript that was different than the one Manchester saw. I think it would be worthwhile to compare and contrast what White, Manchester, and Salinger wrote as well as comparing what we hear with the old LBJ version and this new Clifton version.

Think of the two different Oct 10 cables the CIA sent out about Oswald. They are different. Yet, each one is supposed to be about one guy in reference to doing basically one thing, trying to get a visa to Cuba and then "re-deffecting" back to Russia. John Newman did a great job showing that a deception was going on as to why the descriptions of Oswald don't match, that there was something OPERATIONAL going on. BTW, everyone should get all of the videos of every presentation John Newman ever did. You should have that in addition to his two books.

Perhaps there was some chicanery going on with what was given to White, Manchester, and Salinger. It's just a possibility.

Something else worthy of study is to list who is talking to who, and from where. When a caller is calling to or being called from Air Fore One did they have the capability to record the conversation?

Now, it's possible there are copies of Air Force One transmissions yet to be discovered. But, not a certainty. Absence of a record is not proof of a record. Your reference to a record of destruction is misplaced. LBJ could have ordered their destruction back in '63. No one would have them now and knowing they have them destroy them in some kind of routine destruction because of their age.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Evan Burton

[William Kelly]

Joe Wrote:

Bill,

I want to ask about the sentence of yours that Iput in red.

I want to make a point here as several questions immediately come to mind, three different authors, in three different books,were given a transcript. This transcript was of Air Force One transmissions on November 22, 1963 after the assassination. I want to clarifysome things that I think we're making assumptions about. The biggest assumption is that all communications from Air Force One and to Air Force One were collected into one product, which we're calling The Air Force One Tape. A transcript was made of that. And that one transcript was given to White, Manchester, and Salinger.

How do we know that White, Manchester, and Salinger were given access to the exact sametranscript?

BK: We do know that JFK ordered the tapes made of all AF1 radio communications. WE DON'T know the transcripts were the same. We do know that they all quote and make referencesto information and conversations that are on the transcript that are not on the extant tapes.

Each author referenced a part of the transcript,not necessarily the same part, given to them that we cannot hear on the extanttape. Correct? So, there could be three or more parts of a transcript we cannotmatch to the tape.

Is it possible that White, Manchester, and Salinger were not given ONE TRANSCRIPT, but rather each got a transcript that wasmodified, or edited for the specific author? In other words White may have seena transcript that was different than the one Manchester saw. I think it would be worthwhile tocompare and contrast what White, Manchester, and Salinger wrote as well as comparing what we hearwith the old LBJ version and this new Clifton version.

Think of the two different Oct 10 cables the CIA sent out about Oswald. They aredifferent. Yet, each one is supposed to be about one guy inreference to doing basically one thing, trying to get a visa to Cuba and then "re-deffecting" back to Russia. John Newman did a great job showing thata deception was going on as to why the descriptions of Oswald don't match, thatthere was something OPERATIONAL going on. BTW, everyone should get all of thevideos of every presentation John Newman ever did. You should havethat in addition to his two books.

BK:VIDEOS, until they are transcribed and referenced are not research,but entertainment.

Perhaps there was some chicanery going on withwhat was given to White, Manchester, and Salinger. It's just a possibility.

BK:ABSOLUTLY possible.

Something else worthy of study is to list who istalking to who, and from where.

BK:WORKING on that.

When a caller is calling to or being called fromAir Fore One did they have the capability to record the conversation?

BK:THOSE Aboard AF1 did not record anything. According to Manchester, and unknown to LBJ, JFK had ordered the WHCA tape record all of the radio communications made from AF1 while it was in the air.These were recorded either at the White House Sit Room, the WHCA Command Post, Andrews or possibly the Liberty station at Collins Radio, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Now, it's possible there are copies of Air ForceOne transmissions yet to be discovered. But, not acertainty. Absence of a record is not proof of arecord. Your reference to a record of destruction ismisplaced. LBJ could have ordered their destruction back in'63. No one would have them now and knowing they have them destroythem in some kind of routine destruction because of their age.

BK: WE KNOW THey existed at some time, and the JFK had ordered their creation - both the unedited original tape(s) and the original transcript of the unedited tapes. We also know that there is a law that forbids the destruction of historical records, of which these clearly fit. Nor do we have any record of their destruction, as there are records of the destruction of Oswald's DOD file and FBI records, as well as other government records that have been deliberately destroyed. We also know of cases where records have been ordered destroyed - Conick ordered the NO DA records destroyed and the guy assigned the task kept them instead, and the Andrews AF log for 11/22/63 was salvaged from the trash by a civilian employee of the base. In addition, we were told by the WHCA that no copies existed other than the LBJ Library version, and now we know that is not true as we have the Clifton tape. If there are two copies, I think there are three and probably more copies out there, either sitting on a shelf in an agency library or in someone's closet at home, as the Secret Service agent (Kennedy Detail) said that he has copies of the SS advance reports that the agency said were deliberatly destroyed after the ARRB requested them. So we have so many other examples of copies of documents and records being found after they were ordered destroyed, I believe that we will someday, or someone someday, will listen to the unedited version of the AF 1 radio transmissions.

So absence of the records is not proof of a record, but even if LBJ ordered it destroyed, as he ordered his secretary to destroy certain Oval Office tapes and she didn't, their absence is not proof they don't exist.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited March 11, 2012 by William Kelly