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IT IS CRUEL TO ACCUSE THE SECRET SEVICE


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I am a big fan of Pat Speer's work on this case

but I think Pat has blinkers on

when it comes to SS involvement.

NO ONE could kill a president

without SS connivance,

a fact Pat refuses to admit.

AND the evidence of SS involvement

in DeALY pLAZA

IS obvious even to a blind man

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Raymond,the basic problem I have with Secret Service involvement is I would expect to see those involved to have more money,in property,possessions,etc than you would expect on average Secret Service pay at that time.I know some have made money from books,but that only happened because of the interest in the Kennedy case.long after the Assassination.I doubt if they knew that this would happen.And the interest continues because of the Governments official stance of the lone nutter.The amount of dead witnesses involved with this case,the bodged autopsy,the Windscreen replaced on the cleaned out Limo.But Johnson,or one of his subordinates may have made a lame excuse for the washed car.Like I don't want press taking gory pictures or I would rather its cleaned so Mrs Kennedy does not have to see it like that again.

I am not fixed in my view,and if I saw evidence in these guys getting a pay off,I would be more tempted,persuaded to believe of there involvement.But I have not found a cash trail yet.And I doubt they would be involved in a murder like this for nothing.Generals maybe,these people have big ego's,they may also have seen it as a service to their country in some sort of warped way has they saw JFK as a Pinko,Commy.

Plus,whoever organised this,would they risk attempting to approach guys in the SS with a offer to take part in the murder of the century.What if they refused,would that not be plan blown,unless you bump of the guy approached.

My own view is they,the SS were lackadaisical in there attitudes.A trip away was party time.And the killers knew this.Someone has already put in place that dog leg turn on Elm Street.That would slow down a big car,like the limousine JFK was driving in. You have the tall buildings with a choice of places to place snipers.The knoll and the storm drain being other possibilities.

I think the bigger the circle of those involved,the bigger the risk of being found out.Keep it to a minimum and you have the possibility of never being found out,and it has not yet been proved who did it yet.

But as I say Raymond,this is just a personal opinion.

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Malcolm, How many Secret Service personnel do you feel needed to be involved to compromise protection in Dealey Plaza?

My own feeling is that it could have been done strategically with as few as 3 who were in the motorcade, and possibly a couple more individuals higher up in the hierarchy of that organization.

Would monetary compensation be the only motive for these men? As in your reference to the "Generals", men like LeMay and Walker may have felt they were doing a patriotic service to their country. Is it possible that same opinion was shared by members of the SS?

And if there was actual compensation, would it be prudent for a person of interest in a capital murder investigation to publicly display unaccounted-for wealth after that event?

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Richard,it is possible.We know now that JFK issued no order to remove protection from the rear of JFK's Presidential Limousine.Agent Rybka was positively perplexed at Love Field.

The Bubbletop removal,on a changeable weather day was also a factor that contributed to JFK's death.

Dallas police officers being told they were to observe the Motorcade only.

The positioning of the Motorcycle Outriders.

And Greer's Braking/Slowing down.

Interesting link here,THE STRANGE ACTIONS (AND INACTION)

OF AGENT EMORY ROBERTS

by Vincent M. Palamara (Copyright 1999)

http://www.jfklink.c...oryRoberts.html

So yes its possible.But what if Greer simply bottled it.There are Guns going of,who are they trying to kill,the President.How do I ,Greer,best survive.

Stay still,if I move,I Greer am more likely to get my head blown of by mistake.

Abraham Boden has stated some agents would do nothing in the event of a attack on the POTUS.But I don't think he implied a conspiracy at that point in time he heard it.,more realistically,Cowardice,on the part of the Agents in the discussion.

Like I said Richard,It is possible,I am just not swayed to their complicity as of yet.

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If the limo stopped, as I believe it did, then the driver either by deliberate participation in the plot or unbelievable incompetence and dereliction of duty, bears some responsibility for the murder. Kellerman comes off rather badly in Horne's 5 volumes, mostly for his role at Bethesda and Horne's belief, which I don't think is widely shared, that it was Kellerman who widened the trach incision to retrieve a bullet.

Was not the Secret Service under the Treasury department, and I read long ago, but remember not where, that the size of the Secret Service increased during Kennedy's term and this could well have been with men loyal to Johnson and not Kennedy? Men who might think like General LeMay or Allen Dulles.

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It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Greer saw people on the overpass. He knew they weren't supposed to be there. Then he hears a sound. Not sure what it is. Then another. Scared he's heading into trouble, he takes his foot off the gas. He looks back. Sees Connally falling. He realizes they are being shot at. From behind. He puts his foot to the floor.

Total time. Six to seven seconds.

With the Kennedy assassination, the Secret Service had to publicly address something men like Kennedy had long known: that their presence was next to worthless when it came to protecting the president from sniper fire.

So I don't blame the SS for the assassination. Nor do I blame them for their poor planning of the motorcade. I wouldn't be surprised if most every motorcade had a turn or two in which the limo would be forced to slow down. Heck, JFK was prone to jump out and talk to the crowd on occasion. In the eyes of the SS, THAT was their main concern--someone getting close to Kennedy and shooting him, which had historical precedent.

I do blame the SS for its poor investigation of the shooting, however. From their re-enactments of the shooting and study of the Z-film, they should have concluded that another shooter was likely, or at least admit Oswald was incrediby "lucky."

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In my opinion, I believe the Secret Service were more than complicit in the assassination. As a matter of fact, they weren't shielding him at all. In the Man in the Doorway photo, which Altgens claims he didn't take, you can see in the car, when resized large, that Kennedy had his hands to his throat and was in obvious pain. SS Driver Grer is looking back at Kennedy. It looks to me that he took his hands off the steering wheel and has his head close to the right of the limo. In the Z-film Kennedy suffers the fatal shot and Greer turns around and speeds off. It seems to me that the limo had to have stopped so someone from the Grassy Knoll could hit their target.

The pantomime at Love Field of the agent starting to jog with the car and was told to get away from the limo by a higher Secret Service man. The SS man throws his arms up in mock despair. They had to know that there would be a camera trained on them. The Kennedys were alone in the limo. Something could have happened there. But the camera caught the scene -- I don't know who the cameraman was or for what news outlet he worked for. I'd say the SS allowed Kennedy to be shot. I blame them the most.

Kathy C

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While you are clearly entitled to your own opinion, Kathleen, you should be able to back up what you claim are facts. Where and when did Altgens "claim he didn't take" what is almost certainly his most famous photograph?

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It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Greer saw people on the overpass. He knew they weren't supposed to be there. Then he hears a sound. Not sure what it is. Then another. Scared he's heading into trouble, he takes his foot off the gas. He looks back. Sees Connally falling. He realizes they are being shot at. From behind. He puts his foot to the floor.

Total time. Six to seven seconds.

Well, that was certainly an abuse of the "right to be subjective in one's interpretation" of the evidence, Pat. I do not believe that you have any way of knowing what was going through Greer's mind beyond supposition. However, I grant you that Greer's being incompetent to the task, or at the very least much less competent than other younger agents, is most certainly without dispute.

With the Kennedy assassination, the Secret Service had to publicly address something men like Kennedy had long known: that their presence was next to worthless when it came to protecting the president from sniper fire.

Not true. The problem is that they failed to follow their own protocol that day. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, but when you relax protection to that degree the odds are all in favor of the assassins.

So I don't blame the SS for the assassination. Nor do I blame them for their poor planning of the motorcade. I wouldn't be surprised if most every motorcade had a turn or two in which the limo would be forced to slow down. Heck, JFK was prone to jump out and talk to the crowd on occasion. In the eyes of the SS, THAT was their main concern--someone getting close to Kennedy and shooting him, which had historical precedent.

Again, there are procedures in place to accommodate the changing pace of the vehicle and/or the client's flights of fancy. None of them were observed in Dealey Plaza.

I do blame the SS for its poor investigation of the shooting, however. From their re-enactments of the shooting and study of the Z-film, they should have concluded that another shooter was likely, or at least admit Oswald was incrediby "lucky."

I couldn't disagree more. The Secret Service depends upon the Bureau for much of its intelligence. When the Secret Service was part of the Treasury Department it was good at investigating counterfeit money rings. However, it is not an investigative body when it comes to homicide. Their internal investigation of the failure in Dallas was so poor that they exonerated themselves! I don't blame them for conducting a poor investigation because that isn't what they are supposed to be good at. They are supposed to be good at keeping people alive.

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Greg, you got it backwards. The Secret Service did TWO re-enactments of the shooting. The FBI zero. The Secret Service showed the Zapruder film to photo experts, in an attempt to determine the shot sequence and locations. The FBI did not, and only reluctantly looked at the film.

And yet they came to similar conclusions, with the head shot much further down the road than shown in the films...

As far as your contention they dropped their guard on 11-22...I've seen nothing to indicate the protection was more lax that day than usual. They were a much smaller force back then, with a high burn-out rate. if you or ANYONE has collected information regarding other trips--in which someone popped a firecracker and the limo raced off, or an agent from the front seat catapulted himself into the back seat--then by all means, share this with us, so we can see how 11-22-63 was so different...

P.S. If the protocols in place were sufficient to save Kennedy, then why oh why has no president since Kennedy trusted his life to those protocols?

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Greg, you got it backwards. The Secret Service did TWO re-enactments of the shooting. The FBI zero. The Secret Service showed the Zapruder film to photo experts, in an attempt to determine the shot sequence and locations. The FBI did not, and only reluctantly looked at the film.

And yet they came to similar conclusions, with the head shot much further down the road than shown in the films...

As far as your contention they dropped their guard on 11-22...I've seen nothing to indicate the protection was more lax that day than usual. They were a much smaller force back then, with a high burn-out rate. if you or ANYONE has collected information regarding other trips--in which someone popped a firecracker and the limo raced off, or an agent from the front seat catapulted himself into the back seat--then by all means, share this with us, so we can see how 11-22-63 was so different...

P.S. If the protocols in place were sufficient to save Kennedy, then why oh why has no president since Kennedy trusted his life to those protocols?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...in all due respect, you have no experience in these matters, Pat. You are not speaking from the POV of ever having protected the lives of targets or from the perspective of ever having been protected by body guards. You have only studied this aspect of the case academically. I can't fault you for your ignorance. There is little information available to the civilian student.

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From a recent article by Russ Baker:

Speaking of Dallas, consider these excerpts from a Warren Commission affidavit of Texas Sen. Ralph Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade:

After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward. However, all of the secret service men seemed to me to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. In fact, until the automatic weapon was uncovered, I had been lulled into a sense of false hope for the President’s safety, by the lack of motion, excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, that anything so dreadful was happening. Knowing something of the training that combat infantrymen and Marines receive, I am amazed at the lack of instantaneous response by the Secret Service, when the rifle fire began. I make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and I write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better protection of our Presidents in the future
.

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