Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 You just made my ignore list. I just wish the ignore list worked when I was not logged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) If I am "cocky" it is because the alternative theories are just so bizarre that the SBT makes a lot sense in comparison. The autopsists the night of the autopsy noticed "apparent" surgery to the head, according to the two FBI men. Pre-autopsy surgery must remain a possibility. This is not a theory. The autopsists the night of the autopsy speculated that JFK was hit with blood soluble rounds, according to the two FBI men. That scenario is even stronger imo due to JFK's obvious 2-second on-set paralysis, and the nature of the throat wound. These are facts, not some "bizarre theory" made up out of thin air...like the SBT. Edited August 7, 2012 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Let me ask you a question. I asked Mr. Joesphs this question but he never answered it. Do you think that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone from the head in order to conceal surgery to the presidents head that happened between Parkland and Bethesda? Lets pretend ..... Lets pretend that you are in car and someone is going to shoot at you in the car. And you are in the back seat. You know that someone is going to aim at you from behind with a high powered rifle.. Would you let your child sit in the front seat immediately in front of you? And the car is a covertible with top down. Lets assume that you know you are going to be hit in the back and there is only going to be one shot. If your answer is no , why is it no? Edited August 7, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I find no fault in your logic, sir! The planting of CE399 was indeed crucial to the Oswald/3-shot scenario. However, I'm still going steady with both Flechettes, Throat Shot and Back Shot. I like 'em a lot but I'd never marry 'em. Here's another reason to suspect a back-shot flechette: Steve Kober's investigation into a Tom Wilson observation. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15516&hl= Posted 22 February 2010 - 01:53 PM I have just reread A Deeper, Darker Truth by Donald Phillips which presents the work of Photonic expert Tom Wilson. In one chapter, Tom analysed an enlargement of Atlgens photograph [#6]. Tom Wilson's conclusion of the Dal-Tex second floor open window shows a man with a beard looking with his left eye through a device described as follows: " the device has a small oval tube at the end nearest the window. There are two small protrusions coming out of the device on the side away from the man. The device is aprx 6 to 9 inches in diameter and is aprx 36 to 48 inches long with a 90 degree eyepiece. Tom finishes the paragraph with his need to investigate this device further. I thought I might give it a try. After researching through the United States Patent Files, I think I may have found a device that matched Wilson's description. Under Patent US 6705194B2 , issued on March 16, 2004 a patent was issued for a device for firing " a traceless gun firing lethal or non-lethal bullets . After impacting the surface of the substrate the ice bullet is melted and no traces of the bullet remains. The Patent is for " A Self Rechargeable Gun and Firing Procedure and the assignee is named as "Jet Energy Inc. NJ. I will attach the PDF file ( it's 8 pages and not too technical). Focus on Fig 6 whose look a demensions are a good match for the Wilson device. It also uses an explosive propellant rather than high pressure. Maybe thsi is the "firecracker" sound heard. It was discussed that the first shot should be the kill shot, but maybe that was not case. Maybe the first shot ( in ther back) was to make sure that JFK would not be knocked down thus out of sight for the other teams. Instead , maybe it was thought to paralysis him then he's an easy target for the rifle teams. I propose that this device existed in 1963 and used a paralysising compound in hard ice form. Read the Patent and see the muzzle velocity ( up to 9000 ft/sec) and Fig 8 shows an inpact into 20 mm of plywood. It also had a telescopic sight fitted US_Patent_6705194_Ice_Bullet_Gun.pdf[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Let me ask you a question. I asked Mr. Joesphs this question but he never answered it. Do you think that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone from the head in order to conceal surgery to the presidents head that happened between Parkland and Bethesda? I have no idea. I vouch for the authenticity of the Z-film up to circa Z265. I'm agnostic on limo stops and head blobs. I don't have the technical chops to verify it one way or the other. I've canvassed my friends in the Z-Alteration camp and none of them have given me a reason to suspect that frames Z186-Z265 are inauthentic. And I don't know if there was pre-autopsy surgery. The possibility of it seems "apparent." Lets pretend ..... Lets pretend that you are in car and someone is going to shoot at you in the car. And you are in the back seat. You know that someone is going to aim at you from behind with a high powered rifle.. Would you let your child sit in the front seat immediately in front of you? And the car is a covertible with top down. Lets assume that we know you are going to be hit in the back and there is only going to be one shot. If your answer is no , why is it no? I can't make heads or tails of your question. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 British sniper takes out two Taliban with single bullet. http://nation.foxnews.com/afghanistan/2011/03/15/british-sniper-takes-out-two-taliban-single-bullet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 British sniper takes out two Taliban with single bullet. http://nation.foxnew...n-single-bullet Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that the sniper only fired one shot from behind and both guys on the motorcycle fell down dead. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an autopsy was performed and it was discovered that the guy on the back -- the first guy to get hit -- had an entrance wound but the round didn't exit. If the round didn't exit, the guy in front had to have been shot by a second sniper. No? JFK's back wound was probed twice during the autopsy and no lane of transit was found. The wound was shallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 If what you say is true, nobody, would be arguing the SBT. But , for the sake of argument lets assume it is true. In that case we are only missing one bullet and one exit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 If what you say is true, nobody, would be arguing the SBT. You're sadly mistaken. During the autopsy Humes probed the wound with his finger and found it shallow. Finck probed the wound properly with a metal probe and declared there was no lane of transit. And yet people still argue for the SBT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) There must be something that you are not telling. If that is the only evidence that exists for the back wound there would be no argument for SBT. James Gordon would not have had to waste all this time on the anatomy models. What is the evidence that shows the contrary regarding the probing of the back wound? It has to exist. We are still missing one bullet and one exit wound. Edited August 7, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 There must be something that you are not telling. No, there are a lot of somethings that you're not researching. If that is the only evidence that exists for the back wound there would be no argument for SBT. That's not the only evidence of the back wound. Where do you come up with this stuff, Mike? I don't know about you, but I spent 6 years studying the case before I ever went on a newsgroup to discuss it. You might think about doing some homework. Just say'n... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) There must be something that you are not telling. If that is the only evidence that exists for the back wound there would be no argument for SBT. James Gordon would not have had to waste all this time on the anatomy models. What is the evidence that shows the contrary regarding the probing of the back wound? It has to exist. We are still missing one bullet and one exit wound. ================================================================================ FBI Report DL 100-10461/cv A. AUTOPSY OF BODY OF PRESIDENT JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY On 11/22/63 at Bethesda, Maryland File #89-30 by SAs FRANCIS X. O’NEILL, JR.; JAMES W. SIBERT:dfl Date dictated 11/26/63 At approximately 3 p.m. on November 22, 1963, following the President’s announced assassination, it was ascertained that Air Force One, the President’s jet, was returning from Love Field, Dallas, Texas, flying the body back to Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, Maryland. SAs FRANCIS X. O’NEILL, JR. and JAMES W. SIBERT proceeded to Andrews Air Force Base to handle any matters which would fall within the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, inasmuch as it was anticipated that a large group of both military and civilian personnel assigned to the Base would congregate at Base Operations to witness the landing of this flight. Lt. Col. Robert T. best, Director of Law Enforcement and Security, advised the President’s plane would arrive at 5:25 p.m. Subsequently, Col. BEST advised that the plane would arrive at 6:05 p.m. At approximately 5:55 p.m., agents were advised through the Hyattsville Resident Agency that the Bureau had instructed that the agents accompany the body to the National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Maryland, to stay with the body and to obtain bullets reportedly in the President’s body. Immediately agents contacted Mr. JAMES ROWLEY, the Director of the U. S. Secret Service, identified themselves and made Mr. Rowley aware of our aforementioned instruction. Immediately following the plane’s landing, Mr. ROWLEY arranged seating for Bureau agents in the third car of the White House motorcade which followed the ambulance containing the President’s body to the Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Maryland. On arrival at the Medical Center, the ambulance stopped in front of the main entrance, at which time Mrs. JACQUELINE KENNEDY and Attorney General ROBERT KENNEDY embarked from the ambulance and entered the building. The ambulance was thereafter driven around to the rear entrance where the President’s body was removed and taken into an autopsy room. Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room. A tight security was immediately placed around the autopsy room by the Naval facility and the U. S. Secret Service. Bureau agents made contact with Mr. ROY KELLERMAN, the Assistant Secret Service Agent in Charge of the White House Detail, and advised him of the Bureau’s interest in this matter. He advised that he had already received instructions from Director ROWLEY as to the presence of Bureau agents. It will be noted that the aforementioned Bureau agents, Mr. ROY KELLERMAN, Mr. WILLIAM GREER and Mr. WILLIAM O’LEARY, Secret Service agents, were the only personnel other than medical personnel present during the autopsy. The following individuals attended the autopsy: Adm. C. B. HOLLOWAY, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer of the U. S. Naval Medical Center, Bethesda; Adm. BERKLEY, U. S. Navy, the President’s personal physician; Commander JAMES J. HUMES, Chief Pathologist, Bethesda Naval Hospital, who conducted autopsy; Capt. JAMES H. STONER, JR., Commanding Officer, U. S. Naval Medical School, Bethesda; Mr. JOHN T. STRINGER, JR., Medical photographer; JAMES H. EBERSOLE; LLOYD E. RAIHE; J. T. BOZWELL; J. G. RUDNICKI; PAUL K. O’CONNOR; J. C. JENKINS; JERROL F. CRESTER; EDWARD F. REED; JAMES METZLER. During the course of the autopsy, Lt. Col. P. FINCK, U. S. Army Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, arrived to assist Commander HUMES in the autopsy. In addition, Lt. Cmdr. GREGG CROSS and Captain DAVID OSBORNE, Chief of Surgery, entered the autopsy room. Major General WEHLE, Commanding Officer of U. S. Military District, Washington, D.C., entered the autopsy room to ascertain from the Secret Service arrangements concerning the transportation of the President’s body back to the White House. AMC CHESTER H. BOYERS, U. S. Navy, visited the autopsy room during the final stages of such to type receipts given by FBI and Secret Service for items obtained. At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial: JOHN VAN HAESEN EDWIN STROBLE THOMAS ROBINSON Mr. HAGEN Brigidier General GODFREY McHUGH, Air Force Military Aide to the President, was also present, as was Dr. GEORGE BAKEMAN, U. S. Navy. Arrangements were made for the performance of the autopsy by the U. S. Navy and Secret Service. The President’s body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the President’s clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in an adjacent room. Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m. X-Rays of the brain area which were developed and returned to the autopsy room disclosed a path of a missile which appeared to enter the back of the skull and the path of disintegrated fragments could be observed along the right side of the skull. The largest section of this missile as portrayed by X-Ray appeared to be behind the right frontal sinus. The next largest fragment appeared to be at the rear of the skull at the juncture of the skull bone. The Chief Pathologist advised approximately 40 particles of disintegrated bullet and smudges indicated that the projectile had fragmentized while passing through the skull region. During the autopsy inspection of the area of the brain, two fragments of metal were removed by Dr. HUMES, namely, one fragment measuring 7 x 2 millimeters, which was removed from the right side of the brain. An additional fragment of metal measuring 1 x 3 millimeters was also removed from this area, both of which were placed in a glass jar containing a black metal top which were thereafter marked for identification and following the signing of a proper receipt were transported by Bureau agents to the FBI Laboratory. During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. A call was made by Bureau agents to the Firearms Section of the FBI Laboratory, at which time SA CHARLES L. KILLION advised that the Laboratory had received through Secret Service Agent RICHARD JOHNSON a bullet which had reportedly been found on a stretcher in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. This stretcher had also contained a stethoscope and pair of rubber gloves. Agent JOHNSON had advised the Laboratory that it had not been ascertained whether or not this was the stretcher which had been used to transport the body of President KENNEDY. Agent KILLION further described this bullet as pertaining to a 6.5 millimeter rifle which would be approximately a 25 caliber rifle and that this bullet consisted of a copper alloy full jacket. Immediately following receipt of this information, this was made available to Dr. HUMES who advised that in his opinion this accounted for no bullet being located which had entered the back region and that since external cardiac massage had been performed at Parkland Hospital, it was entirely possible that through such movement the bullet had worked its way back out of the point of entry and had fallen on the stretcher. Also during the latter stages of the autopsy, a piece of the skull measuring 10 x 6.5 centimeters was brought to Dr. HUMES who was instructed that this had been removed from the President’s skull. Immediately this section of skull was X-Rayed, at which time it was determined by Dr. HUMES that one corner of this section revealed minute metal particles and inspection of this same area disclosed a chipping of the top portion of this piece, both of which indicated that this had been the point of exit of the bullet entering the skull region. On the basis of the latter two developments, Dr. HUMES stated that the pattern was clear that the one bullet had entered the President’s back and had worked its way out of the body during external cardiac massage and that a second high velocity bullet had entered the rear of the skull and had fragmentized prior to exit through the top of the skull. He further pointed out that X-Rays had disclosed numerous fractures in the cranial area which he attributed to the force generated by the impact of the bullet in its passage through the brain area. He attributed the death of the President to a gunshot wound in the head. The following is a complete listing of photographs and X-Rays taken by the medical authorities of the President’s body. They were turned over to Mr. Roy KELLERMAN of the Secret Service. X-Rays were developed by the hospital, however, the photographs were delivered to Secret Service undeveloped: 11 X-Rays 22 4 x 5 color photographs 18 4 x 5 black and white photographs 1 roll of 120 film containing five exposures Mr. KELLERMAN stated these items could be made available to the FBI upon request. The portion of the skull measuring 10 x 6.5 centimeters was maintained in the custody of Dr. HUMES who stated that it also could be made available for further examination. The two metal frgments removed from the brain area were hand carried by SAs SIBERT and O’NEILL to the FBI Laboratory immediately following the autopsy and were turned over to SA KURT FRAZIER. [emphasis added] Edited August 7, 2012 by Greg Burnham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) I have not studied the single bullet theory. But I can see better why it exists. The SBT was a logical conclusion reached to satisfy perplexing data. The doctors were perplexed because they did not find a bullet in the back wound or an exit for that wound. The doctors were perplexed because they did not find a bullet in the throat wound or an exit for that wound. They had two wounds, no exits and no bullets. The SBT is a logical conclusion to explain it. It may be idiotic but it is a whole lot less idiotic than proposing the use of dart guns with blood soluble darts. Given the evidence presented to them I think its a good theory. Here is a portion of Finck's testimony.... I found a portion of his testimony here... http://www.spartacus...uk/JFKfinck.htm Edited August 7, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) If what you say is true, nobody, would be arguing the SBT. You're sadly mistaken. During the autopsy Humes probed the wound with his finger and found it shallow. Finck probed the wound properly with a metal probe and declared there was no lane of transit. And yet people still argue for the SBT! Let me ask you a question. I asked Mr. Joesphs this question but he never answered it. Do you think that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone from the head in order to conceal surgery to the presidents head that happened between Parkland and Bethesda? Lets pretend ..... Lets pretend that you are in car and someone is going to shoot at you in the car. And you are in the back seat. You know that someone is going to aim at you from behind with a high powered rifle.. Would you let your child sit in the front seat immediately in front of you? And the car is a covertible with top down. Lets assume that you know you are going to be hit in the back and there is only going to be one shot. If your answer is no , why is it no? Answer to your question about 313... No. Mike... your "let's pretend" arguments remind me of Arlen Specter's Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? Just like you Mike... "Let's PRETEND" So our Mr Specter here is asking whether - IF YOU ASSUME THAT THE WOUND I AM DESCRIBING IS A WOUND OF EXIT, Would the hole be consistent with an EXIT wound? Is an EXIT WOUND (as Arlen described it and asks that you ASSUME it to be true), an EXIT WOUND? Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. Mr. SPECTER - Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it? Dr. JONES - Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. So what up here Mike? If the bullet was barely going fast enough to exit the front... how did it do all those things to JC? IT DIDN'T. Finally, if we assume Arlen's LET's PRETEND is fact... where is the EXIT POINT of a shot that HITS NOTHING, and ENTERS JFK's BACK wherever you want it to.... and travels downward at 45 degrees? (Hint: the bullet would have been shot from the moon, down thru JFK;s head, out his throat and basically down into the floor in front of JFK) But how about YOU do something other than offer your opinion.... Show us how a 45 degree shot does what you say it did.... Edited August 7, 2012 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I have not studied the single bullet theory. But I can see better why it exists. I've seen this song and dance before. The more we produce evidence contrary to the SBT the more you'll ignore it and declare your belief in it stronger than ever. trela llort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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