Was Oswald an Idiot?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Okay. So why would a suspect in the plot to kill the President insert provably false information into the record

In case you haven't noticed, laying down false trails

was a recurring element of the plotters MO.

In this particular instance their goal was to further misdirect the attention of the FBI

and keep the FBI's attention on Lee Oswald,

who was completely innocent.

The thing about false stories is that, even after they have been proven false,

there is always some joker who will still be repeating them 50 years later.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Of course there is, Ray. A bit like you being adamant that Mary Bledsoe saw Lee Oswald on a bus. Until I proved you wrong by using Hugh Aynesworth's early reporting from November 26th:

You proved only that you are a legend in your own mind.

You make the ridiculous claim that Oz was lying when he said he took the bus

but you don't have the slightest clue as to where he REALLY was

if he wasn't on the bus.

In order to prove that Oz wasn't on the bus you will have to prove that he was somewhere else,

but nobody is holding breath waiting for you to do that.

Instead it is a safe bet that your hot air will continue,

leading absolutely nowhere.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

P.S. Could the moderators consider removing the word "Was" from the title of this thread, replace it with "Is" and swap Lee Oswald's name with Ray Carroll's please?

I propose we rename Mr. Farley instead

and call him

THE ONLY MAN WHO KNOWS WHERE OZ WAS

WHEN HE WASN'T ON THE BUS

[Ian Kingsbury]

P.S. Could the moderators consider removing the word "Was" from the title of this thread, replace it with "Is" and swap Lee Oswald's name with Ray Carroll's please?

I propose we rename Mr. Farley instead

and call him

THE ONLY MAN WHO KNOWS WHERE OZ WAS

WHEN HE WASN'T ON THE BUS

Ray

He was probably at the Tidy laundromat rinsing his halo!.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Here is a 1974 article by Jerry Rose dismissing the $200 a month FBI informant story.

In the second half of his essay, Dr. Rose makes a big deal of Shanklin's comment on Nov. 22nd that Hosty

"knew about these people and had been investigating them before"

Dr. Rose goes on to say:

I presume that he (Shanklin) already knew of the identity of "these people" investigated by Hosty

or was able to go an office file and locate that information on Hosty's current investigations of Oswald

My guess is that Shanklin's records, or his memory showed that Oswald was maintaining an informer relation to

"these people"

and that Hosty was the agent to whom he was reporting.

Dr. Rose admits that he is just guessing here, so I will substitute my own guess:

The FBI did not just have a file on Lee Oswald SINGULAR.

They had 2 files, one on Marina, a Soviet citizen

and one on Lee.

As I recall, Hosty was originally assigned only to Marina's file

because the FBI had already closed their file on Lee.

Hosty then reopened Lee's file

so he then had files on 2 people.

I submit it is pretty clear that when Franklin mentioned

"these people"

he was referring to

"the Oswalds"

http://www.maryferre...24&relPageId=16

[Michael Hogan]

Here is a 1974 article by Jerry Rose dismissing the $200 a month FBI informant story.

http://www.maryferre...24&relPageId=16

Jerry Rose earned his reputation as an outstanding researcher and his Third and Fourth Decade Journals have proven invaluable over the years.

In the above referenced article, Dr Rose concluded:

No, I don't believe Oswald was agent #179 of the FBI as reported by the Dallas cowboys. But he was almost surely

an undercover agent, as those upon whom he was informing were in an excellent position to know.

Earlier in that article Rose noted:

A clerk in the FBI office, William Walter, claimed to have seen a file in that office identifying Oswald as an undercover agent.

Here is Walter's sworn HSCA testimony: http://www.maryferre...331&relPageId=4

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Jerry Rose earned his reputation as an outstanding researcher

Dr. Rose was indeed well respected, but his writings normally exhibit more rigorous scholarship

than he demonstrates in his short piece on William Walter.

Dr Rose writes that HSCA found that Walters was "mistaken".

Maybe Jerry couldn't find his reading glasses that day, because "mistaken"

is NOT what HSCA concluded.

Instead HSCA questioned Walter's credibility and concluded that

Walter's allegations were unfounded.

THe committee noted that Walters claimed that his ex-wife could corroborate his story,

at least to the extent that he had told her the same story back in 1963.

THe former Mrs Walter said her ex never said a word about it at the time.

http://www.history-m...eport_0111b.htm

On this particular issue, I regret to say,

Dr. Rose's article is unreliable.

[Steven Gaal]

Oswald’s employment at Reily’s lasted until July 19th, when he was let go, supposedly for spending too much work time next door at Adrian Alba’s garage. The Crescent City Garage was home to the local government agencies’ motor pools. One day Alba recalled observing an FBI agent handing a white envelope to Oswald, who was standing in front of Reily’s. Alba watched as Oswald clutched the envelope close to his chest and walked back into Reily’s.(2)

================================

2) HSCA Report, pp. 193-194. Alba’s recollection came several years after the incident and should be regarded with a measure of skepticism. However, corroboration of Oswald’s association with the FBI was offered by the Cuban proprietor of the Habana Bar located on Decatur Street in New Orleans. Orest Pena alleged that he saw Oswald and FBI agent, Warren deBrueys talking on a number of occasions. According to an interview Pena gave to author Mark Lane, he said "the CIA was aware of the relationship; deBrueys had introduced Oswald to contacts known by Pena to be CIA through his service to the Agency in providing lodging for Cuban defectors." Pena claims that deBrueys threatened him with physical harm if he revealed this to the Warren Commission. DeBrueys has denied Pena’s Claims. See Mark Lane, Plausible Denial (New York: Thunder’s Mouth Press, 1991), pp. 55-56.

Let Justice Be Done

Edited December 14, 2012 by Steven Gaal

[J. Raymond Carroll]

No comment on the Pena episode

which remains a swearing match between Pena and De Breys

but I think Adrian Alba is a person of interest.

Of course I don't believe his testimony about the FBI,

but I think Alba may have known what happened to Oz's rifle.

Unfortunately neither the Warren Commission, Jim Garrison nor the HSCA

ever did an investigation

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ya gotta enjoy some of the Oz accusers on this forum.

In rereading this thread I came across this gem which tells us

what Oz REALLY meant when he worried aloud about his daughter's need

for a pair of new shoes:

Researchers have long pondered Oswald's possibly cryptic statement to Marina when she went to visit him whilst he was in custody. He said to her, "Junie needs new shoes." When I pulled together my material on William Lowery, The Shoe Haven shoe salesman, Oswald's comment made sense for the first time. I believe it was possible he was telling Marina that he was owed money. Possibly $200.

[Steven Gaal]

John Armstrong's University of Minnesota Speech

Minneapolis--May 15, 1999

In August, Harvey was arrested in New Orleans while passing out "Fair Play for Cuba Literature". The Warren Commission asked John Pic (RIGHT-SLIDE 38) "Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflets?" Pic replied "No, sir, I would be unable to recognize him". For the 7th time during his Warren Commission testimony, John Pic refused to identify Harvey Oswald as his brother.

Helping Harvey pass out leaflets was Charles Hall Steele, (RIGHT-SLIDE39) an FBI informant. While Oswald was passing out leaflets he was observed by CIA Agent William Gaudet, filmed by FBI informant ??? Oquinn, a film that was later shown on national television. Oswald was confronted by three Cubans and the police were called. The arresting officer thought the leafletting incident was a staged event, designed to draw attention. (RIGHT-SLIDE 40) The officer was correct, but was unaware that two of the Cubans-Carlos Bringuier and Miguel Cruz-were FBI informants and the third, Celso Hernandez, was a CIA contact. Oswald and the Cubans were arrested and taken to jail. In jail Oswald summoned and spoke with FBI Agent John Quigley. A week later Oswald was invited to discuss his pro-Castro views on WDSU radio. Moderating the discussion was Bill Stuckey, an FBI informant. Panelists included FBI informant Carlos Bringuier and Edward Scannel Butler, head of the Information Counsel of the Americas--a CIA sponsored and funded organization. Had we known in 1963 that everyone involved with the leafletting incidents and the radio discussions were connected to either the FBI or CIA, we would not so easily accepted the medias portrayal of Oswald as a supporter of Castro and Communism. We would have asked why the accused assassin of President Kennedy was surrounded by FBI and CIA people. We might have realized that Oswald was not a supporter of Castro but rather a government sponsored agitator.

...PART 2

Evidence that was altered can be identified by comparing Dallas Police photographs of Oswald's possessions with photographs taken by the FBI of the same evidence. The Dallas Police filmed 9 items in photograph #375. Oswald's Minox camera was among these items. The Dallas Police sent their undeveloped film to the FBI. When the FBI developed the film and returned the photograph of the Minox to the Dallas Police, (RIGHT-SLIDE 87) the Minox had disappeared. The FBI photographed a Minox light meter (RIGHT-SLIDE 88) and told the Dallas Police they had received only a light meter--not a Minox camera. They tried repeatedly to get the (RIGHT-SLIDE 89) Dallas Police to change their inventory from a Minox camera to a Minox light meter. The FBI ignored the many rolls of Minox film (RIGHT-SLIDE 90) found at the Paine garage and the photographs taken with Oswald's Minox camera in Japan (RIGHT-SLIDE 91). They ignored Dallas Detectives Rose and Stoval, Officer Gerald Hill and Assistant District Attorney William Alexander who all handled and identified Oswald's Minox camera. These people did not understand why the FBI insisted on saying that Oswald did not have a Minox camera. But to the FBI Oswald's ownership of a Minox spy camera implied connections to intelligence agencies--so the Minox camera was altered and became a light meter.

.......

the afternoon of the assassination Dallas reporter Seth Kantor was

provided with detailed biographical information on Oswald--before

Oswald's name was broadcast on radio or TV. The information was

supplied by Harold Hendrix, a CIA "media friend" who acted as a

conduit for CIA leaks.

* CIA employee Donald Deneslya (LEFT-SLIDE 87) read reports of a CIA

agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the

US with a Russian wife and child--that Agent was Oswald.

* CIA officer David Phillips provided the Warren Commission with

information that Oswald was at the Russian and Cuban embassies in

Mexico City, then later admitted that the information he had

provided was false.

* CIA Agent Donald Norton said "Oswald was with the CIA, and if he did it

then you better believe the whole CIA was involved".

* Former CIA agent Joseph Newbrough said "Oswald was an agent for the

CIA and acting under orders".

* CIA paymaster James Wilcott said he had furnished money for the Oswald

project--code named RX ZIM (LEFT-SLIDE 88). He said it was common

knowledge among his group that Oswald was an agent of the CIA.

* CIA Agent John Garrett Underhill told friends, just before he died,

"Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. They've killed the President. I've

been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away

with it, but they did".

* (LEFT-SLIDE 89) Lyndon Johnson was convinced there was a plot and

that the CIA had something to do with it

* (LEFT-SLIDE 90) CIA Agent William Gaudet said "the man who probably

knows as much as anybody alive on all of this... is... I still think

is Howard Hunt"----CIA Agent and Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt.

When researchers began to uncover indications of CIA involvement in the assassination, the CIA sent out this memo (LEFT-SLIDE 91). The memo offered suggestions to media assets on how to block and impede investigation of the Kennedy assassination by researchers. The media complied and has supported the Warren Commission findings while ignoring the work of the research community. Whenever a new book is published naming Oswald as the lone assassin, the author is interviewed on national television and his book reviewed by the New York Times. When new information is uncovered that suggests government involvement or hints of a conspiracy, that information is usually attacked, ridiculed or buried in a non-descript article in a small town newspaper. We have learned to doubt the sincerity of the media and question their credibility and motives. But we do not question the existence of a political iron curtain that keeps the work of the research community from reaching the public through the media.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Kathy Beckett

[Michael Hogan]

Dr Rose writes that HSCA found that Walters was "mistaken".

Not true.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Dr Rose writes that HSCA found that Walters was "mistaken".

Not true.

Dr. Rose writes:

William Walter, whom the HSCA said was "mistaken"

about seeing an FBI agent file on Oswald in New Orleans

was allegedly mistaken again in reporting having seen

an FBI telex shortly before the assassination

warning about the impending event

possibly based on information from Oswald.

See Line 22

http://www.maryferre...24&relPageId=20

I don't know what part of this Mr. Hogan doesn't understand.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

He genuinely does not want this case solved.

This particularly vicious falsehood

can now take its place

alongside all the other drivel

that Mr. Farley posts

about a murder case

which he has no clue about solving

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Do you not want to discuss the following quotes from Marina Oswald's letter to the ARRB;

"I believe that Lee Oswald was the FBI informant who made these arrests possible." Marina Oswald Porter, 1996

At that time Marina came under the influence of Mary La Fontaine

who claimed to be a serious researcher. Mary's book, co-authored by her husband

claimed that Oz was an FBI informant.

Of course Marina's opinions, whether influenced or no,

do not amount to EVIDENCE.

La Fontaine's book contained all kinds of other drivel...

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=222298

"From the new information now available, I am now convinced that he was an FBI informant and believe that he did not kill President Kennedy." Marina Oswald Porter, 1996

While I do not share the opinion that Oz was an FBI informant

I agree that with Marina that Lee did not shoot anyone,

and was completely innocent.