New Proof of JFK Film Fakery: "Conclusive Evidence", Experts Claim

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Quote:

That you seem to experience no shame from coming here making blatantly false claims on purpose in order to deceive

and mislead the more gullible members of this forum never ceases to amaze me.

To show how out of touch you are Jim, you don't even seem to realize, that this is actually the O.I.P and your Motus Operandi

When you hitched your wagon to the O.I.P it was a step too far.

Cinque is a known xxxx and a con man snake oil salesman, who has been caught out posting under at least 3- false names on various forums.

He sent me an ABUSIVE email, and when i posted it on Duncan's forum, he denied black and blue that he sent it to me, and said that someone must have hacked his hotmail account.

Then the SOB sent me this Email:

From: Dr. Ralph Cinque <doctorcinque@hotmail.com>

To: quaneeri2@yahoo.com

Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012 2:54 PM

Subject: Good Riddance!!

Unger you dumb pluck! I'm glad you won't be commenting on my thread anymore . Nice try in an attempt to incriminate me by posting my first email on the forum but nobody bought it. I'm a lot smarter than you and dont try posting this on the site too cos it will make you look even dumber trying to set me up.

You are a phoney, a fink and charlatan who doesn't know xxxx from shinola on photography. You are just scared i'm exposing the big lie.

kiss my ass and make sure you keep your promise of not coming back to my thread. you are just full of guano

As long as you support Cinque Jim, then you also are in the firing line.

This is completely stupid. Ralph can be a hot head, but you are resorting to guilt by association. You can't defeat my arguments, so

you pretend this is about Ralph, when it is about YOU AND ME. The blatant fallacies you are committing here have left me no choice

in declaring that you are deliberately misleading the members of this forum, where our most recent exchange PROVES IT IN SPADES.

You are pretending that one (ambiguous) phrase out of a dozen reports from impeccable sources should outweigh the rest. Consider:

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Chaney says, "I WENT AHEAD OF THE PRESIDENT'S CAR TO INFORM CHIEF CURRY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN HIT". According to you, this actually happened AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S CAR HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How much more deceptive can you get, Robin Under. Really!

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Hargis reports (about Chaney), "HE IMMEDIATELY WENT FORWARD AND ANNOUNCED TO THE CHIEF THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN SHOT". But, according to you, HE CAN'T HAVE RIDDEN FORWARD, BECAUSE THE LIMO WAS ALREADY PAST THE CHIEF'S CAR. Give us a break, Robin.

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Forrest Sorrels, "A MOTORCYCLE PULLED UP ALONG SIDE OF THE CAR . . . BY THAT TIME WE HAD GOTTEN JUST ABOUT UNDER THE UNDERPASS WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S CAR PULLED UP ALONGSIDE. . . " How many more gross distortions are you going to attempt here, Robin?

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

Winston Lawson, "A MOTORCYCLE ESCORT OFFICER PULLED ALONGSIDE OUR LEAD CAR . . ." So when is this supposed to have happened?

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Marrion Baker, ". . . AND HE [CHANEY] MOVED UP AND TOLD HIM [THE CHIEF], AND THEN THAT WAS DURING THE TIME THAT THE SECRET SERVICE [iNSTEAD OF "MEN WERE" INSERT "MAN WAS"] TRYING TO GET IN THE CAR", WHICH IS THE TRIVIAL ARGUMENT YOU'VE POSED.

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Bobby Hargis, "CHANEY PUT HIS MOTOR IN FIRST GEAR AND ACCELERATED UP TO THE FRONT TO TELL THEM TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, THAT HE [THE PRESIDENT] WAS COMING THROUGH, AND THAT WAS WHEN THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE SHOT OFF . . .". Yet to hear you tell it, this only happened AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE HAD ALREADY PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How dumb are we supposed to be, Robin?

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Chief Curry, ". . . AND ABOUT THIS TIME A MOTORCYCLE OFFICER, I BELIEVE IT WAS OFFICER CHANEY, RODE UP BESIDE US AND I ASKED IF SOMETHING HAPPEND BACK THERE . . . '. God, I find it disgusting that I am having to spell out your grotesque deceit and deception, Robin Unger!

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “... I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4

H353]

Winston Lawson, ". . . I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us . . .". And when is this supposed to have happened, Robin?

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345]

Forrest Sorrells, "AND I SAID, 'LET' GET OUT OF HERE' AND LOOKED BACK, ALL THE WAY BACK, THEN, TO WHERE THE PRESIDENT'S CAR WAS . . . IN THE MEANWHILE, A MOTORCYCLE OFFICER HAD RUN UP ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE . . .". So just how dumb are we supposed to be?

What Happened on Elm Street? The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Craig Lamson]

Right, Lamson! There's something wrong with my analysis of Frame 374! That's why it corresponds so closely with the Crenshaw

diagrams, the McClelland diagram, the location by the witnesses, the Mantik X-ray studies and the mortician's description of the

wounds. That you seem to experience no shame from coming here making blatantly false claims on purpose in order to deceive

and mislead the more gullible members of this forum never ceases to amaze me. I find your performance completely grotesque.

Yep. And we ALL have been over this time and time again.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

And by the way, I don't blame Ralph for being pissed off with you. He made a brilliant discovery--that the question

of Doorman's identity could be resolved BY LOOKING AT THE CLOTHING INSTEAD OF THE FACE--yet he has

been pilloried and derided from one forum to another. I have no doubt that you made the same kinds of crappy,

baseless arguments with him that you are now making with me. But I have done a better job of exposing you.

Ralph is a good man who has a short fuse. You are a patient man who has been misleading everyone here

about the evidence and unjustifiably attacking Ralph and now me. Well, I have had enough of it. You are as

phony as they come--and this latest stunt of yours HAS DEMONSTRATED YOUR CORRUPTION IN SPADES.

Quote:

That you seem to experience no shame from coming here making blatantly false claims on purpose in order to deceive

and mislead the more gullible members of this forum never ceases to amaze me.

To show how out of touch you are Jim, you don't even seem to realize, that this is actually the O.I.P and your Motus Operandi

When you hitched your wagon to the O.I.P it was a step too far.

Cinque is a known con man snake oil salesman, who has been caught out posting under at least 3- false names on various forums.

He sent me an ABUSIVE email, and when i posted it on Duncan's forum, he denied black and blue that he sent it to me, and said that someone must have hacked his hotmail account.

Then the SOB sent me this Email:

From: Dr. Ralph Cinque <doctorcinque@hotmail.com>

To: quaneeri2@yahoo.com

Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012 2:54 PM

Subject: Good Riddance!!

Unger you dumb pluck! I'm glad you won't be commenting on my thread anymore . Nice try in an attempt to incriminate me by posting my first email on the forum but nobody bought it. I'm a lot smarter than you and dont try posting this on the site too cos it will make you look even dumber trying to set me up.

You are a phoney, a fink and charlatan who doesn't know xxxx from shinola on photography. You are just scared i'm exposing the big lie.

kiss my ass and make sure you keep your promise of not coming back to my thread. you are just full of guano

As long as you support Cinque Jim, then you also are in the firing line.

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Craig Lamson]

But I have to admit that Robin Unger, on this and other threads, is giving him a run for his money. One of the elementary fallacies I

spent 35 years teaching freshmen to avoid is known as "special pleading" by only citing the evidence favorable to your side and

ignoring the rest. That is Unger's move here, by citing a phrase that only makes sense if it is actually referring to Clint Hill climbing

on the back of the Lincoln limousine, pushing Jackie back in the seat, lying across their bodies and peering into the fist-sized hole

at the back of JFK's head. Who in the world does this guy think he is kidding? Read the reports highlighted in red. They leave no

doubt that this was taking place BEFORE THE LIMO HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. I am finding it increasingly embarrassing to

have to correct such blatant distortions, again and again. But that's Lamson and Unger's modus operandi. No one on this forum

should have any problem at this point in time in distinguishing between those two and others who are revealing truths about JFK.

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “... I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4

H353]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345]

What Happened on Elm Street? The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

Thanks for posting all the items in red. Too bad for you they don't say what you think they say. Other than Chaney who said it happened prior to the TUP? Answer...NONE.

Game, set and match.

Another misdirection by Fetzer.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Chaney says, "I WENT AHEAD OF THE PRESIDENT'S CAR TO INFORM CHIEF CURRY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN HIT". According to you, this actually happened AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S CAR HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How much more deceptive can you get, Craig Lamson. Really!

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Hargis reports (about Chaney), "HE IMMEDIATELY WENT FORWARD AND ANNOUNCED TO THE CHIEF THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN SHOT". But, according to you, HE CAN'T HAVE RIDDEN FORWARD, BECAUSE THE LIMO WAS ALREADY PAST THE CHIEF'S CAR. Give us a break, Lamson.

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Forrest Sorrels, "A MOTORCYCLE PULLED UP ALONG SIDE OF THE CAR . . . BY THAT TIME WE HAD GOTTEN JUST ABOUT UNDER THE UNDERPASS WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S CAR PULLED UP ALONGSIDE. . . " How many more gross distortions are you going to attempt here, Lamson?

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

Winston Lawson, "A MOTORCYCLE ESCORT OFFICER PULLED ALONGSIDE OUR LEAD CAR . . ." So when is this supposed to have happened, Lamson?

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Marrion Baker, ". . . AND HE [CHANEY] MOVED UP AND TOLD HIM [THE CHIEF], AND THEN THAT WAS DURING THE TIME THAT THE SECRET SERVICE [iNSTEAD OF "MEN WERE" INSERT "MAN WAS"] TRYING TO GET IN THE CAR", WHICH IS THE TRIVIAL ARGUMENT UNGER HAS POSED.

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Bobby Hargis, "CHANEY PUT HIS MOTOR IN FIRST GEAR AND ACCELERATED UP TO THE FRONT TO TELL THEM TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, THAT HE [THE PRESIDENT] WAS COMING THROUGH, AND THAT WAS WHEN THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE SHOT OFF . . .". Yet to hear you tell it, this only happened AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE HAD ALREADY PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How dumb are we supposed to be, Lamson?

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Chief Curry, ". . . AND ABOUT THIS TIME A MOTORCYCLE OFFICER, I BELIEVE IT WAS OFFICER CHANEY, RODE UP BESIDE US AND I ASKED IF SOMETHING HAPPEND BACK THERE . . . '. God, I find it disgusting that I am having to spell out your grotesque deceit and deception, Craig Lamson!

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “... I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4

H353]

Winston Lawson, ". . . I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us . . .". And when is this supposed to have happened, Lamson?

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345]

Forrest Sorrells, "AND I SAID, 'LET' GET OUT OF HERE' AND LOOKED BACK, ALL THE WAY BACK, THEN, TO WHERE THE PRESIDENT'S CAR WAS . . . IN THE MEANWHILE, A MOTORCYCLE OFFICER HAD RUN UP ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE . . .". So just how dumb are we supposed to be?

What Happened on Elm Street? The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Robin Unger]

But I have to admit that Robin Unger, on this and other threads, is giving him a run for his money. One of the elementary fallacies I

spent 35 years teaching freshmen to avoid is known as "special pleading" by only citing the evidence favorable to your side and

ignoring the rest. That is Unger's move here, by citing a phrase that only makes sense if it is actually referring to Clint Hill climbing

on the back of the Lincoln limousine, pushing Jackie back in the seat, lying across their bodies and peering into the fist-sized hole

at the back of JFK's head. Who in the world does this guy think he is kidding? Read the reports highlighted in red. They leave no

doubt that this was taking place BEFORE THE LIMO HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. I am finding it increasingly embarrassing to

have to correct such blatant distortions, again and again. But that's Lamson and Unger's modus operandi. No one on this forum

should have any problem at this point in time in distinguishing between those two and others who are revealing truths about JFK.

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “... I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4

H353]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345]

What Happened on Elm Street? The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

Thanks for posting all the items in red. Too bad for you they don't say what you think they say. Other than Chaney who said it happened prior to the TUP? Answer...NONE.

Game, set and match.

Another misdirection by Fetzer.

Jim seems to put a lot of faith in the testimony of the Dallas DPD and the Secret Service.

I on the other hand, are not as trusting or accepting of evidence and deads performed by the Dallas DPD and the Secret Service on 22/11/63

[Craig Lamson]

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Chaney says, "I WENT AHEAD OF THE PRESIDENT'S CAR TO INFORM CHIEF CURRY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN HIT". According to you, this actually happened AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S CAR HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How much more deceptive can you get, Craig Lamson. Really!

Chaney got it wrong...not uncommon for an eyewitness, they are notorious for being wrong.

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Hargis reports (about Chaney), "HE IMMEDIATELY WENT FORWARD AND ANNOUNCED TO THE CHIEF THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN SHOT". But, according to you, HE CAN'T HAVE RIDDEN FORWARD, BECAUSE THE LIMO WAS ALREADY PAST THE CHIEF'S CAR. Give us a break, Lamson.

WENT FORWARD WHEN AND WHERE? What he does not say...imagine that.

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Forrest Sorrels, "A MOTORCYCLE PULLED UP ALONG SIDE OF THE CAR . . . BY THAT TIME WE HAD GOTTEN JUST ABOUT UNDER THE UNDERPASS WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S CAR PULLED UP ALONGSIDE. . . " How many more gross distortions are you going to attempt here, Lamson?

As all the images show, he got the timing wrong. Another witness failure...they are notorious for that.

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

Winston Lawson, "A MOTORCYCLE ESCORT OFFICER PULLED ALONGSIDE OUR LEAD CAR . . ." So when is this supposed to have happened, Lamson?

Notice again he does not say what you think he said. Where and when Jim?

Continued in the next post

[Craig Lamson]

Continued from the previous post

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Marrion Baker, ". . . AND HE [CHANEY] MOVED UP AND TOLD HIM [THE CHIEF], AND THEN THAT WAS DURING THE TIME THAT THE SECRET SERVICE [iNSTEAD OF "MEN WERE" INSERT "MAN WAS"] TRYING TO GET IN THE CAR", WHICH IS THE TRIVIAL ARGUMENT UNGER HAS POSED.

Again you got it wrong.

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Bobby Hargis, "CHANEY PUT HIS MOTOR IN FIRST GEAR AND ACCELERATED UP TO THE FRONT TO TELL THEM TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, THAT HE [THE PRESIDENT] WAS COMING THROUGH, AND THAT WAS WHEN THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE SHOT OFF . . .". Yet to hear you tell it, this only happened AFTER THE PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE HAD ALREADY PASSED THE LEAD CAR. How dumb are we supposed to be, Lamson?

Where and when Jim, again he does not say what you said he did.

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Chief Curry, ". . . AND ABOUT THIS TIME A MOTORCYCLE OFFICER, I BELIEVE IT WAS OFFICER CHANEY, RODE UP BESIDE US AND I ASKED IF SOMETHING HAPPEND BACK THERE . . . '. God, I find it disgusting that I am having to spell out your grotesque deceit and deception, Craig Lamson!

Where and when Jim, again he did not say what he said he did. You get it wrong again.

Posting it again won't change the fact it does not say what you say it does. Your claim is all assumptions and the photographic record shows just that. And to say photos are easily faked is not an argument, its a cop out and a major hand wave, one you use every time you get caught with your fingers in the evidence jar. Sadly for you it does no good unless you can physically prove the photos have been altered and like with the Zapruder film you have yet to prove one single image is altered.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

But I have to admit that Robin Unger, on this and other threads, is giving him a run for his money. One of the elementary fallacies I

spent 35 years teaching freshmen to avoid is known as "special pleading" by only citing the evidence favorable to your side and

ignoring the rest. That is Unger's move here, by citing a phrase that only makes sense if it is actually referring to Clint Hill climbing

on the back of the Lincoln limousine, pushing Jackie back in the seat, lying across their bodies and peering into the fist-sized hole

at the back of JFK's head. Who in the world does this guy think he is kidding? Read the reports highlighted in red. They leave no

doubt that this was taking place BEFORE THE LIMO HAD PASSED THE LEAD CAR. I am finding it increasingly embarrassing to

have to correct such blatant distortions, again and again. But that's Lamson and Unger's modus operandi. No one on this forum

should have any problem at this point in time in distinguishing between those two and others who are revealing truths about JFK.

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “...when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard some one say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ....” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said,‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “... I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4

H353]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345]

What Happened on Elm Street? The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

Thanks for posting all the items in red. Too bad for you they don't say what you think they say. Other than Chaney who said it happened prior to the TUP? Answer...NONE.

Game, set and match.

Another misdirection by Fetzer.

Jim seems to put a lot of faith in the testimony of the Dallas DPD and the Secret Service.

I on the other hand, are not as trusting or accepting of evidence and deads performed by the Dallas DPD and the Secret Service on 22/11/63

No, these are fascinating and important reports because they PROVE THE ZAPRUDER FILM IS A FAKE. When you have GOVERNMENT

AGENTS GIVING TESTIMONY THAT BLOWS THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN ACCOUNT OUT OF THE WATER, IT'S TIME TO TAKE NOTICE

These are called "admissions contrary to interest". You are being all the more devious here by suggesting that you are on the up-and-up,

when my point has been THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY DECEIVING THE FORUM ABOUT WHAT THEIR REPORTS ASSERT.

I do admire how cleverly you are trying to extricate yourself from the proof of your own deception, but it's way too late for that, Robin. You

have completely discredited yourself. Anyone can see it. All they have to do is reread the last few posts in our exchange. It is BLATANT.

Compare your post #166 with my posts #175 and #177. I am sorry, Robin, but they can stick a fork in you: YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Robin Unger]

quote:

Robin, but they can stick a fork in you: YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

If the amount of suport you are recieving on this thread is any indication, then it is YOU WHO HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

quote:

Robin, but they can stick a fork in you: YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

If the amount of suport you are recieving on this thread is any indication, then it is YOU WHO HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.

That's part of the problem with you and these forums. They become social identity events, where very few members

are actually looking for the truth. The are after some form of social cohesion and approval, where people like Lamson

and you can lead them around by the nose and imply that actual students of JFK, such as Ralph, Richard, and me,

NEED YOUR SOCIAL APPROVAL FOR OUR VIEWS TO BE TRUE. But truth is not a function of popularity. And if

you think the forum does not have your number, well, that OK with me. Self-delusion often goes along with deceit

and deception. You mislead others so often that you forget the difference between reality and illusion. Because of

the role of people like you and Lamson, these forums fall short of their potential, because no one wants to be the

subject of the kinds of abuse that you and he (and Colby, among others) dish out. You have been more subtle and

they have not, but your m.o. has become apparent. The honest members of the forum now know what you're about.

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Robin Unger]

Altgen's 7

Newspaper 22/11/63

Quote:

Hi Robin,

I’ve attached a scan of the original AP wire photo, which is the first one they sent out after Altgens’ roll of film was processed. Note that it is labeled DN1. That means it came from the Dallas Morning News office of the AP. cel stood for caption writer Carl E. Linde, the 6 signified the sixth day of the week (Friday) and 12:55 was the time the image went out to ALL AP subscribers around the world. Next, stf-jwa stands for AP staff photographer James W. Altgens and 1963 is the year it was sent. The day’s date appears at the beginning of the caption.

DN2, as explained by Trask on p. 318 of POTP, was Altgens 6 showing the TSBD doorway. It was sent at 1:03. As best I recall, DN3 was the picture Altgens took as the limo turned onto Houston Street and it soon followed, and DN4 was the cropped version of DN2 to show Kennedy better. Those were the first four photographs the AP sent to subscribers after the Kennedy assassination.

Trask probably has all of four in his collection and the AP certainly has the paperwork behind them. It would be nice to see a high res scan from the original negative, which the AP still has.

Gary Mack

Click on image to view FULLSIZE:

What no comment Jim. ?

Do you still contend that this photo is a fake YES OR NO

Edited March 3, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Stephen Roy]

I couldn't believe it when Jim pontificated:

One of the elementary fallacies I spent 35 years teaching freshmen to avoid is known as "special pleading" by only citing the evidence favorable to your side and ignoring the rest.

Egad! Who, in this forum, in this thread, only cites evidence favorable to his side and ignores the rest? And is in profound denial about doing it?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Altgens7? OF COURSE IT'S A FAKE. What, am I supposed to prove it ALL OVER AGAIN? And citing

GARY MACK is simply mind-boggling. We all know his role, just as we all know your and Lamson's!

For one of you to cite another is hardly surprising, but it does make the circle more conspicuous. We

KNOW that Altgens7 HAS TO HAVE BEEN FAKED. Egad, man! This insults every member of the forum:

The Costella Response

John Costella, Ph.D., the leading expert on the film in the world today, who earned his doctorate in physics with a specialization in electromagnetism, the properties of light and images of moving objects, responded almost immediately. “Forget about the book”, he wrote. “That YouTube video [of Blaine and Hill at a book signing, which can be found here:

]

is worth its weight in gold!” A few years ago, after he did a compilation of eyewitness reports from Dealey Plaza [ http://assassination...5n1costella.pdf ] and created a stabilized version of the Zapruder film, in which the limousine does not move vertically within frames (below), John recognized that what Clint has described from the days after the assassination, to his testimony to the Warren Commission and right up to his last public interviews in the 1970s or 1980s, was consistent but contradicts the film. At the book signing,

24:30: "As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left.

His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . .”.

This is completely consistent with every account Clint has ever given. He insists that he reached Mrs. Kennedy, pushed her down into the back seat, and was lying over the President, close enough to view the exact wounds, before the driver accelerated away—and certainly before they got to the lead car. The problem is that the extant Zapruder film—together with the less familiar Nix and Muchmore films—has Clint never actually touching Mrs. Kennedy; indeed, the extant Zapruder shows that he never got further than the rear foothold until the time that the limo passed the lead car and went under the Triple Underpass. Instead, it shows him stuck there on the rear foothold (below).)

According to Clint Hill (shown here on the rear foothold of the limousine as the vehicle is about to enter the Triple Underpass), he had already reached Mrs. Kennedy and pushed her down in the back seat. JFK had fallen to the left into her lap, where the right side of his head was exposed to Clint, who was lying over them. This photo is supposed to have been taken by Ike Altgens and corresponds with late Zapruder frames. Clint’s testimony not only falsifies the Zapruder film, but also shows that this photograph was faked to agree with it.

Lest there be any doubt on this crucial point, in Clint Hill’s written statement dated 30 November 1963, which was published as Commission Exhibit CE 1024, he wrote: “As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President’s head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. I saw a part of his skull with hair on it lying on the seat” [18H742]. And in his testimony to the commission on 9 March 1964, “The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the middle of the car. His brain was exposed.” [2H141]. Since he has told us he made these observations before the limousine had reached the pilot car drive by Chief Curry (shown above), this photo has to have been faked. Clint could not have made these observations from the rear foothold as it represents. (His descriptions of the wound to the right rear of JFK’s head are discussed below.)

Hi Robin,

I’ve attached a scan of the original AP wire photo, which is the first one they sent out after Altgens’ roll of film was processed. Note that it is labeled DN1. That means it came from the Dallas Morning News office of the AP. cel stood for caption writer Carl E. Linde, the 6 signified the sixth day of the week (Friday) and 12:55 was the time the image went out to ALL AP subscribers around the world. Next, stf-jwa stands for AP staff photographer James W. Altgens and 1963 is the year it was sent. The day’s date appears at the beginning of the caption.

DN2, as explained by Trask on p. 318 of POTP, was Altgens 6 showing the TSBD doorway. It was sent at 1:03. As best I recall, DN3 was the picture Altgens took as the limo turned onto Houston Street and it soon followed, and DN4 was the cropped version of DN2 to show Kennedy better. Those were the first four photographs the AP sent to subscribers after the Kennedy assassination.

Trask probably has all of four in his collection and the AP certainly has the paperwork behind them. It would be nice to see a high res scan from the original negative, which the AP still has.

Gary Mack

Click on image to view FULLSIZE:

What no comment Jim. ?

Do you still contend that this photo is a fake YES OR NO

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Having received a thorough intellectual thrashing on this forum, it is not surprising that someone like

Robin Unger is going to attempt to recycle every argument in the thread! Don't be taken in. He has

gone down to one of the most stunning defeats in the history of The Education Forum--and desperately

needs to save face! No one who has followed the argument is going to be taken in, but that is not about

to inhibit him from trying. One of the most egregious is attempting to recycle the "but it had ALREADY

APPEARED and THERE WASN'T TIME TO FAKE IT". But the photo is OBVIOUSLY FAKE, given what

we know about Officer Chaney's having motored forward and what Clint Hill has told us. This is unreal!

The strongest argument that has been advanced against the Altgens6 having been altered has been that it went out over the wire within 30 minutes or so, which would not have allowed enough time for that to have happened. Anyone who studies the doorway images, however, can see that, not only has that face been obfuscated, but the man in the doorway is missing his left shoulder and the man behind him, who is wearing a black tie, is simultaneous both IN FRONT OF and BEHIND HIM at the same time, as we have emphasized in most of our studies. When the evidence of alteration is as blatant as this–where these features are not even anatomically or photographically possible–how could anyone have doubts about whether or not the photo had been altered? Since the photo was altered, there had to have been time to have altered it.

Indeed, one of our senior members, Roy Schaeffer, was working as a photo processor at the Dayton Daily News when he personally received the Altgens6 photo-fax. Immediately, he could see signs of alteration, such as “masking” and “opaquing.” In an earlier study, I observed that the 22 November 1963 issue of The Sheboygan Times includes a photo of the Altgens, which struck me as having to be the outcome of a CIA substitution, which I mentioned at the time. Now Ralph has confirmed that that was indeed the case, where the real issue and the substitute issue have both been revealed. Here is the late edition of the Benton Harbor, MI, News-Palladium for 22 November 1963: the one on the left is real, the one on the right is not–but was fabricated to make it look as if Altgens6 was published that day:

Edited March 3, 2013 by James H. Fetzer