Thomas Graves Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) Craig, Do you think JFK was slammed back and to his left by a neuro-muscular reaction to being hit in his head just once? Kind of like that goat on youtube? --Tommy I don't play that game Tommy. You should know that by now. Tink's waterboy does not play games.... why folks waste time on this subject matter with you is amazing... lmao! Well lookie, lookie, here come heal. All hat and no cow.... I don't play games. I just tell it like it is, and then I prove it. Can you say the same? Lets do it again since its been derailed by those who can't deal with reality.... Craig, Thank you for showing us, in very graphic and convincing detail, the first head shot. Sincerely, --Tommy Edited May 14, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Mr. Josephs Long time no see, my friend. As you are likely aware, I was permanently banned from the JFK Assassination Forum for repeatedly having the audacity to suggest that the Lone Nutters on that forum were likely in the employ of the CIA or some other government agency. I was considered such a threat to the Free World, every single post I ever made on that forum was disappeared along with me. Ho hum.... I would like to offer support for your analysis of the backwards motion of JFK following the fatal head shot. From my perspective, the actual recoil of JFK away from the impact of the bullet is very short and brief. The "back and to the left" motion we see following this brief recoil is, IMO, JFK's stiffly corseted torso falling over due to the force of gravity. As I have mentioned before, I have a great deal of experience with rifles, most of it hunting deer. For many years, I have handloaded my own rifle cartridges. I have never shot an animal with a full metal jacket bullet, as this is illegal and inhumane, so I cannot speak for the results of impacting a living skull with an FMJ bullet. Most of my hunting has been done with soft tipped bullets. These will expand on impact and I have only witnessed slight backward recoil on deer struck in the head with them. However, I did experiment for a brief period with 110 grain .30 calibre hollow point bullets for a .308 calibre deer rifle. Once you've shot a deer in the head with a hollow point bullet, witnessed the results and examined the damage to the deer, the head shot at z312 of the Zapruder film makes far more sense. Because hollow point bullets expand so much and so rapidly, they push far more matter ahead of them inside of a skull wound and slow down that much quicker, imparting almost all of their energy to the matter inside of the skull. The results are often explosive and, in some cases, the bullet does not even exit the skull. The recoil action away from the impact with the bullet is far more exaggerated with hollow point bullets. I have literally seen one smaller deer lifted off of his front feet and propelled away from the impact point. This is what we are seeing in the film as JFK makes a sharp and short recoil away from the impact point, prior to falling to his left. Needless to say, my experiment with hollow point bullets was short lived, as the results were somewhat obscene. Great to see/hear you Bob... yes indeed... that forum has become LNers falling all over themselves to see who can bury their head in the sand fastest... while delivering as many insults as possible. Nothing but tons of fun. Not a whole lot better here at the moment. A handful of nutters like to think they are derailing the efforts of many with their pithy little ad homs posts.... while admitting they could care less about the actual assassination or its effect on history.... Let's put it this way in this thread... any forward movement of JFK's head is attributed to the 3rd law of physics.... NOT to a shot from the rear... Photo-man Lamson can't - nor anyone else - produce images of the blood and gore in front of JFK within the limo that corresponds to Frazier's statement... so given witness statements are worthless - according to LNers - Where's all that forward spraying blood from the front of his forehead popping open? If a bullet was able to travel from JFK thru JC... then why wasn't JC and Nellie awash in JFK's blood from the SAME BULLET fired from behind blowing JFK's forehead off... Given the "evidence"... maybe cause the photos and xrays tell two different stories.... Look at Z345... this is well after any blood was sprayed from the wound hitting Hargis (EAST and SOUTH of JFK) We can see the blood from the shot to JC already spreading thru his jacket... yet I challenge the impotent Lamson to find ANY EXAMPLE of blood on the backs of the middle seats, blood on Nellie, blood on the SS agents, blood on the handrails... or on the hood of the vehicle.... Mr. SPECTER - I hand you a subsequent exhibit of the Commission, No. 346, showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. It wasn't as clean as it is in Exhibit 346. Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness? Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car. Mr. SPECTER - Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. If the shot was from JFK's right to left, from behind... blowing the debris FORWARD... we'd expect to see it all over the LEFT SIDE of the limo to the FRONT of JFK.... Do we see any blood on these areas? Where is all the blood to the FRONT of JFK... We can see it just fine on the seat... but the buckt of blood and debris that supposedly fell forward SHOULD have been seen all over the left side of that limo. When in reality.. the backsplatter of the shot to the right temple area is ALL the debris that fell forward... Prove otherwise. Now you get to see CL in all is ad hom glory.... He has nothing with which to counter so out comes his third grader alter ego.... something that starts with "davie jo" and goes on to show his VAST knowledge in this case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) Look at Z345... this is well after any blood was sprayed from the wound hitting Hargis (EAST and SOUTH of JFK) We can see the blood from the shot to JC already spreading thru his jacket... yet I challenge the impotent Lamson to find ANY EXAMPLE of blood on the backs of the middle seats, blood on Nellie, blood on the SS agents, blood on the handrails... or on the hood of the vehicle.... Mr. SPECTER - I hand you a subsequent exhibit of the Commission, No. 346, showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. It wasn't as clean as it is in Exhibit 346. Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness? Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car. Mr. SPECTER - Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. If the shot was from JFK's right to left, from behind... blowing the debris FORWARD... we'd expect to see it all over the LEFT SIDE of the limo to the FRONT of JFK.... Do we see any blood on these areas? Where is all the blood to the FRONT of JFK... We can see it just fine on the seat... but the buckt of blood and debris that supposedly fell forward SHOULD have been seen all over the left side of that limo. When in reality.. the backsplatter of the shot to the right temple area is ALL the debris that fell forward... Prove otherwise. Now you get to see CL in all is ad hom glory.... He has nothing with which to counter so out comes his third grader alter ego.... something that starts with "davie jo" and goes on to show his VAST knowledge in this case... David, I have never used the Z-film to prove anything because I find the lack of debris exiting the avulsive wound in the right rear of the head as proof of alteration. 10 years ago Bill Miller on Lancer responded that the debris exited the back of Kennedy's head too fast for the camera to capture. Funny-- Toni Foster in her 2000 interview with Debra Conway said the "spray went behind him." So Toni could see easily what the camera could not. Therefore I argue nothing from the film. Yet you seem to take the film seriously. May I pose the question then to you: how do you account for the lack of debris exiting the back of Kennedy's head? ITEK confirmed there are no debris exiting the back of Kennedy's head in the extant film . thanks in advance, Daniel Edited May 14, 2013 by Daniel Gallup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) You silly little boy..... Is there sufficient detail available in the Z film to see the blood spray that has fallen on the interior? Of course not. How about that Parkland shot? Nope again. Just gotta love the infantile logic of davie jo. I can't see it therefore it CANNOT exist. What a joke. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. And the forward movement...ROFLMAO! Just a few posts ago you said... "No... JFK's head does not move forward in the Zfilm we get to look at." Make up your mind you silly little boy. Can't have it both ways. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. Edited May 14, 2013 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 You silly little boy..... Is there sufficient detail available in the Z film to see the blood spray that has fallen on the interior? Of course not. How about that Parkland shot? Nope again. Just gotta love the infantile logic of davie jo. I can't see it therefore it CANNOT exist. What a joke. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. And the forward movement...ROFLMAO! Just a few posts ago you said... "No... JFK's head does not move forward in the Zfilm we get to look at." Make up your mind you silly little boy. Can't have it both ways. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. If a bullet hitting JFK from the back could make his head go forward, could a bullet hitting the front of his head make JFK go backwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 You silly little boy.....Is there sufficient detail available in the Z film to see the blood spray that has fallen on the interior? Of course not. How about that Parkland shot? Nope again. Just gotta love the infantile logic of davie jo. I can't see it therefore it CANNOT exist. What a joke. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. And the forward movement...ROFLMAO! Just a few posts ago you said... "No... JFK's head does not move forward in the Zfilm we get to look at." Make up your mind you silly little boy. Can't have it both ways. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. If a bullet hitting JFK from the back could make his head go forward, could a bullet hitting the front of his head make JFK go backwards? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 You silly little boy.....Is there sufficient detail available in the Z film to see the blood spray that has fallen on the interior? Of course not. How about that Parkland shot? Nope again. Just gotta love the infantile logic of davie jo. I can't see it therefore it CANNOT exist. What a joke. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. And the forward movement...ROFLMAO! Just a few posts ago you said... "No... JFK's head does not move forward in the Zfilm we get to look at." Make up your mind you silly little boy. Can't have it both ways. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Never mind. But hey, davie jo has never let reality stand in the way of his fantasy. Never will. If a bullet hitting JFK from the back could make his head go forward, could a bullet hitting the front of his head make JFK go backwards? Why not? That being said, could we be seeing JFK struck in the head by a bullet from behind, followed by a bullet to the front of his head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) That being said, could we be seeing JFK struck in the head by a bullet from behind, followed by a bullet to the front of his head? GUESS what ever you want... Edited May 15, 2013 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) It's merely a logical extension of what you are saying, Craig. As you explained, JFK's head moved forward between z312 and z313 and then was seen to recoil backwards. What else could make JFK's head move backwards following z313, if it was not a bullet from the front? Edited May 15, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 It's merely a logical extension of what you are saying, Craig. As you explained, JFK's head moved forward between z312 and z313 and then was seen to recoil backwards. What else could make JFK's head move backwards following z313, if it was not a bullet from the front? I have no idea and I'm not the least bit interested in guessing. You on the other hand can guess ( and that's all it will be) as much as you like. Knock yourself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 It's merely a logical extension of what you are saying, Craig. As you explained, JFK's head moved forward between z312 and z313 and then was seen to recoil backwards. What else could make JFK's head move backwards following z313, if it was not a bullet from the front? I have no idea and I'm not the least bit interested in guessing. You on the other hand can guess ( and that's all it will be) as much as you like. Knock yourself out. But, Craig, you're such an expert, you can tell us the head is moving forward because of an impact by a bullet from the rear. Surely you can explain to us why the head then moves backwards in the next frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 It's merely a logical extension of what you are saying, Craig. As you explained, JFK's head moved forward between z312 and z313 and then was seen to recoil backwards. What else could make JFK's head move backwards following z313, if it was not a bullet from the front? I have no idea and I'm not the least bit interested in guessing. You on the other hand can guess ( and that's all it will be) as much as you like. Knock yourself out. But, Craig, you're such an expert, you can tell us the head is moving forward because of an impact by a bullet from the rear. Surely you can explain to us why the head then moves backwards in the next frame. Poor bob, your reading comprehension skills and cognitive ability are as bad here are they where at Duncans forum. I never said WHY the head was moving forward, just that it WAS moving forward to show that davie jo was wrong again. I also said it COULD move either forward or backwards from a gunshot. Now if you want to make some guesses about what happened, please, knock yourself out. And then brush up on your reading skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Hi Daniel.... I use the Zfilm because I believe the images we see on the film did occur... like the Knudsen autopsy photos... they happened yet they do not tell the entire story and in fact suggest a story that is completely opposite from what actually occurred... but like these autopsy photos... that IS his shoulder, that IS his head... it's just been set up in such a way as to show what they wanted to show... So, imo, the Zfilm does include imagery from DP at the time of the assassination... some of it covered up, painted over... and some of it removed. I am postulating that Z filmed in slo motion for a good portion of the assassination sequence... this created 3 times as many frames and allowed the film to be refilmed frame by frame. The jerks and quick movements within the film can be explained while removing large sections of the film - the limo stop - without leaving a trace. The splices occur in very specific locations 157, 208, 341, 350 as seen within the existing film. When a discussion of shots is had, we see that these splices coincide with descriptions of shots fired in every case except z313. By losing the Intersprocket area for these frames, we removed the replication barrior... I can replace everything between 209 and 341 without a trace, same with 157 thru 208... or 341 thru 350. As long as the IS area is gone, AND there is a splice, a physical splice, anything is possible. Now ask yourself. The FBI and SS were in charge... taking whatever they wanted... film from cameras, the cameras themselves and basically TAKING whatever it is they wanted. YET, the Zfilm, Zapruder, is handled with kid gloves... I personally do not believe that Zapruder had ANY FILMS IN HIS POSSESSION friday night yet the impression was that he always had it, that the SS/FBI were willing to wait around until Zapruder DECIDED to give them the original... to give this film more credibility. --------- With regards to the blood seen by so many exiting the right rear... the frames with that spray were removed, which is why JFK appears to move so violently backward. Looking at the transitions between 313 and 314... and then compare that to 315/6/7 the amount of change in the movement of the head, the appearance of the white blob, the removal of the blood to the rear... (I believe most of that blood overshoots the limo and hit Hargis) the removal of a few key frames and the blood is gone, yet the backward motion was exaggerated... better that than the sight of blood shooting out the rear of JFK's head. we do see remnants of the blood above his head in 315/6/7 just nothing behind his head.... Once we understand how fraudulent the evidence is... most ALL of it... our job becomes picking out the real from within these frauds. While quite a bit of the evidence was in fact created speifically to support Oswald's guilt... much was the original evidence that has undergone some change... the roots are there but are hidden by the branches and leaves... Just my opinions and conclusions from the evdience I get to work with.... question remains... Where is the evidence of blood and debris forward of JFK in the limo? DJ Look at Z345... this is well after any blood was sprayed from the wound hitting Hargis (EAST and SOUTH of JFK) We can see the blood from the shot to JC already spreading thru his jacket... yet I challenge the impotent Lamson to find ANY EXAMPLE of blood on the backs of the middle seats, blood on Nellie, blood on the SS agents, blood on the handrails... or on the hood of the vehicle.... Mr. SPECTER - I hand you a subsequent exhibit of the Commission, No. 346, showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined?Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. It wasn't as clean as it is in Exhibit 346.Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.Mr. SPECTER - Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile?Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. If the shot was from JFK's right to left, from behind... blowing the debris FORWARD... we'd expect to see it all over the LEFT SIDE of the limo to the FRONT of JFK.... Do we see any blood on these areas? Where is all the blood to the FRONT of JFK... We can see it just fine on the seat... but the buckt of blood and debris that supposedly fell forward SHOULD have been seen all over the left side of that limo. When in reality.. the backsplatter of the shot to the right temple area is ALL the debris that fell forward... Prove otherwise. Now you get to see CL in all is ad hom glory.... He has nothing with which to counter so out comes his third grader alter ego.... something that starts with "davie jo" and goes on to show his VAST knowledge in this case... David, I have never used the Z-film to prove anything because I find the lack of debris exiting the avulsive wound in the right rear of the head as proof of alteration. 10 years ago Bill Miller on Lancer responded that the debris exited the back of Kennedy's head too fast for the camera to capture. Funny-- Toni Foster in her 2000 interview with Debra Conway said the "spray went behind him." So Toni could see easily what the camera could not. Therefore I argue nothing from the film. Yet you seem to take the film seriously. May I pose the question then to you: how do you account for the lack of debris exiting the back of Kennedy's head? ITEK confirmed there are no debris exiting the back of Kennedy's head in the extant film . thanks in advance, Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 The splices occur in very specific locations 157, 208, 341, 350 as seen within the existing film. More blatant nonsense fro davie jo. Can he show that the film was spliced at these highlighted locations? OF COURSE NOT. Not even CLOSE. But that will never stop davie jo from spewing his nonsense...not in a million years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Then post the original frames... 341 and 350 Simple. Right now all we have are these, and the IS area is missing in all of them since the COPY FRAMES are used to fill in the missing frames: Post the intact 341 and 350 and prove yourself correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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