Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

Vestibule: front lobby of a building.

ves·ti·bule (vst-byl)

n.

1. A small entrance hall or passage between the outer door and the interior of a house or building.

2. An enclosed area at the end of a passenger car on a railroad train.

3. Anatomy A cavity, chamber, or channel that leads to or is an entrance to another cavity: the vestibule to the ear.

[Latin vestibulum.]

While the front entrance TSBD could refer to 1., it also could refer to the little alcove - a rectangle shaped chamber sandwiched by three doors at the entrance to the Second Floor Lunchroom - the small nine square feet space where Oswald was seen by Baker through the window of the closed West door to that vestibule.

In this context however, Belin asked Holmes what Oswald said about being stopped by Baker - in which Holmes says vestibule for the first time - and apparently two sets of doors - and it appears he is talking about the Oswald encounter with Baker in the Second Floor Lunchroom vestibule - but then he says First Floor and begins to describe Oswald directing a newsman to a telephone and then walking out the front door.

It seems that just because Holmes is confused here doesn't mean we should be.

Holmes is not in the least confused: there were indeed "two sets of doors" in the building's vestibule (aka front lobby).

Here's how Marrion Baker described the layout of outer doors and inner doors:

Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.

Mr. BELIN - All right.

Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered.

Matches Holmes's description of the vestibule to a t.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

In the Hughes film above, who is the man in blue shirt who puts both hands up?

And that's Lovelady next to him - with the open brownish button shirt and white t-shirt, right?

And Tommy, as for my statement that the shirt in the original picture is brown - you are correct,

I don't know it is brown, but it is clearly not white - and in the future I will refer to it as being dark.

The man in the blue shirt, raising his arms in the air, is on the opposite side of Elm St. from the TSBD. I believe that person is actually standing on the pergola wall.

And I believe it is a girl. She is much closer to the camera, so she appears larger than the figures in the doorway.

Add Edit: And her name is Toni Glover. If anyone is interested, here is a link to the girl on the pedestal:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=6209.120;wap2

It is Toni Glover. She spoke at, I think JFK Lancer in 2012 or it may have been 2011. She is the girl standing on the pedestal.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Sean Murphy]

There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

They saw no one there.

Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.

Ask yourself:

• Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?
• Doesn't it seem to you like he has been asked the question, Did you see 'anyone' there?
• Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking Truly such a question?
• And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?
• Could it be that 'someone'--some significant third party--has been talking noisily about having seen Truly and an officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, just after the shooting?
• If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man--a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Keep up the good work, guys. This thread is brilliant.

I would caution everyone about trusting Holmes's account. We are not talking here about Sherlock.

His claim that Baker told Oz "I'll deal with you later", implying that Oz disobeyed Baker's order to wait around

is not supported by Baker or Truly, and we can be certain that

A/ it never happened and

B/ Oz never said it happened.

Moreover, if we compare Holmes's report with Kelley's report of that final interview

there are alarming discrepancies. I believe Kelley's report is an honest report

(& not just because he has a namesake (without the e) on the forum),

whereas Holmes appears to be confabulating, and including matters that were discussed

in Friday and Saturday's interrogations, which he had no doubt been briefed about by his good friend

Will Fritz.

Edited August 20, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Duncan and Sean, please help me here.

I am pushing to prepare Prayer Man's proper pedigree.

From the link that Duncan posted earlier, it seems that on

July 21, 2012, 12:39:06 AM

-- Not sure what time zone Duncan is in--

Sean Murphy first pointed out Prayer Man, as he would later be called,

whom he spotted in a gif created by Gerda Dunkel.

Am I getting warm?

Edited August 20, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Richard Hocking]

Diagram of TSBD First Floor

[Jerry Dealey]

-----Original Message-----



Jerry, there actually is some interesting dialog on the Ed forum about a figure right outside the front door of the building back in the shadows, not to stretch things but figure might be holding a soda bottle. In regard to that someone posted the following and to me it sounds like the front entrance...but you are far better at this than I, what do you think?
Larry Hancock

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry,

I have now come to the conclusion that the figure in the shadows is either Bill Shelly or Buell Frazier. Frazier spoke recently at the sixth floor, and stated that he had the "best seat" in Dealey Plaza, completely in SHADE. (I wish I had thought to take that frame from the film and ask him to identify some of the people.) But none of the other persons on the front porch look like Bill Shelly, nor Buell Frazier.

Yes, the glass door entrance was one of two. In between was a small lobby, with the passenger elevator, a cigarette machine, stairs that only went to the 2nd floor, and a small storage closet under the stairs. This could be called a lobby, entrance, or "vestibule" (I guess). Inside the 2nd glass doors, was the "will call" counter. We have lots of photos of all of these areas.

Pierce Allman was the individual that got directions to the telephone. He was a radio newsman, and still lives. (I bump into him at the Sixth Floor, from time to time.) We have the audio report that he phoned in from inside the building, and he is apparently very out of breath. His entrance would likely be about 12:33 which was about the time that Oswald would have left, as it would have taken Pierce a few moments to react, gather his thoughts, and make his way from wherever he was to find a phone.

Mrs. Robert Reid, who was out in front of the building, came in and went up the stairs, to her desk in the back of the office on the second floor. She is the one who encountered Oswald, carrying a coca-cola, as he crossed the secretary's office space on the 2nd floor.

Again, neither I, nor anyone else, can put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle. However, I cannot put him anywhere else either. Carolyn Arnold (allegedly) said on her Nov. 28th statement to the FBI, that she thought she saw Oswald by the first door. On her April 1964, FBI statement, she allegedly said she did not see Oswald that day. (We know how accurate the FBI is, right? But if they were going to alter the statements, why would they alter the first one to say by the front door?) In 1975, Earl Goltz (Dallas Morning News) reported that Carolyn said "2nd floor lunchroom", and that she was shocked that the FBI quoted her as she did.

Oswald supposedly told Fritz that he was in the 1st floor domino/lunch room, having lunch, and a "couple of the boys" walked through. "Junior" and the other name he did not know. Now, I have had people tell me that he was either really there, or he must have been Psychic to know that they walked through. But it could have simply been an "educated guess": based on the fact that those workers played Dominoes in that room every day for lunch, for the 5 weeks that Oswald was a worker there... More importantly, they STORED their lunches in the window of that room! If it was their lunch hour, and they wanted to eat, they would naturally "walk through".

Barry Earnest' book, "The Girl on the Stairs", contends that Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles would have seen Oswald, if he had taken the stairs down from 6 to 2. At least they would have "heard" him, as those stairs make a lot of noise. (He was not wearing high heels, and they were, so I think if he was ahead of them, they would NOT have heard them. However, they knew the building, and I was not there.)

Their manager, Gardner, was watching the stairway area from the time Styles and Adams left, up until she saw Baker and Truly going up, and SHE also did not see Oswald going down. Based on this Casey Quinlan and others contend that he must have been on the 2nd or 1st floor. None of these people say ANYONE going down those stairs.

Jack Doherty was using the elevators, and Baker and Truly were aware of the elevators from the 1st floor, although Doherty did slip the west (automatic) elevator past them at some time. The fire escape was on Houston street, where hundreds of people were. Yet these are the only 3 ways to access or egress the 6th floor. But if there was ANY shooter on the 6th floor, would they not also be subject to the same limitations as Oswald? (Maybe Mr. Scott "beamed" the shooters out of there?)

Again, I cannot put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle. But I can't conclusively put him anywhere else in the building, and if ANYONE was on the 6th floor firing (or pretending to fire), they would also have the same problem exiting the 6th floor, without being seen by the others.

(I don't get on the Ed forum very often, but I guess I should paste this text into the discussion. FWIW)

Jerry Dealey

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jerry Dealey

[Sean Murphy]

-----Original Message-----

Jerry, there actually is some interesting dialog on the Ed forum about a figure right outside the front door of the building back in the shadows, not to stretch things but figure might be holding a soda bottle. In regard to that someone posted the following and to me it sounds like the front entrance...but you are far better at this than I, what do you think?

Larry Hancock

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry,

I have now come to the conclusion that the figure in the shadows is either Bill Shelly or Buell Frazier. Frazier spoke recently at the sixth floor, and stated that he had the "best seat" in Dealey Plaza, completely in SHADE. (I wish I had thought to take that frame from the film and ask him to identify some of the people.) But none of the other persons on the front porch look like Bill Shelly, nor Buell Frazier.

Hi Jerry,

Frazier and Shelley's own respective testimonies rule them out as Prayer Man.

Frazier places himself by the centre rail, with Lovelady and Shelley over closer to the side wall. Prayer Man in both Wiegman and Darnell, by contrast, is right over by the side wall.

Shelley recalls that immediately after the shots he and Lovelady went to the 'island' on Elm Street such that they could look back towards the TSBD front entrance and notice Baker & Truly about to enter the building. Prayer Man in Darnell, by contrast, is standing stock still on the steps with Baker just a couple of seconds from those same steps.

Sean

[Sean Murphy]

Here's what Buell Wesley Frazier looked like, and what he was wearing, on the day of the assassination:

Doesn't look a bit like Prayer Man:

Assuming we can safely say that Prayer Man is white (thereby ruling out Roy Lewis and Carl Jones), we have ourselves a genuine riddle here:

a figure on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the shooting who appears to be

-white

-male

-short-haired

-non-besuited

-employed in the Depository building

...and whose presence on the steps went

-unnoticed

-unremembered

Edited September 7, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Richard Hocking]

There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

They saw no one there.

Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.

Ask yourself:

• Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?
• Doesn't it seem to you like he has been asked the question, Did you see 'anyone' there?
• Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking Truly such a question?
• And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?
• Could it be that 'someone'--some significant third party--has been talking noisily about having seen Truly and an officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, just after the shooting?
• If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man--a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?

Good observation. One wonders how many other instances there were of Truly "not-seeing someone", but failed to include in his report.

The truth is, We know from the photo and film evidence that Truly and Baker would have passed right by Prayer Man (and numerous other people) as they entered the building.

[Richard Hocking]

For Sean, Bill, or any other forum members who might be able to help:

I am trying to find out the measurements and distances of certain items in the TSBD Entry area

• the height of the doorway opening

• the height of the risers on the steps

• number of steps

• in fact any dimensions or measurements in this area would be helpful

TIA if anyone can assist.

[Richard Hocking]

Here's what Buell Wesley Frazier looked like, and what he was wearing, on the day of the assassination:

Doesn't look a bit like Prayer Man:

Assuming we can safely say that Prayer Man is white (thereby ruling out Roy Lewis and Carl Jones), we have ourselves a genuine riddle here:

a figure on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the shooting who appears to be

-white

-male

-short-haired

-non-besuited

-employed in the Depository building

...and whose presence on the steps went

-unnoticed

-unremembered

I am nearly certain that the African American man by the West Column in Altgen's is Roy Lewis.

Carl Jones claimed at one point in his testimony that he was on the steps, but then he continues on to say he was with Truly, Campbell, and Reid, which places him out by Elm St. He also stated he saw JFK slump down, a view that was impossible from Prayer Man's position.

[Sean Murphy]

I am nearly certain that the African American man by the West Column in Altgen's is Roy Lewis.

Carl Jones claimed at one point in his testimony that he was on the steps, but then he continues on to say he was with Truly, Campbell, and Reid, which places him out by Elm St. He also stated he saw JFK slump down, a view that was impossible from Prayer Man's position.

Thanks, Richard.

The riddle thickens...

I am near-certain that this is Bill Shelley:

And here he is again at the front door of the TSBD:

Accordingly, it seems safe to say that he is Person E in Altgens and Wiegman:

Edited September 7, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Robert Prudhomme]

There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

They saw no one there.

Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.

Ask yourself:

• Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?
• Doesn't it seem to you like he has been asked the question, Did you see 'anyone' there?
• Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking Truly such a question?
• And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?
• Could it be that 'someone'--some significant third party--has been talking noisily about having seen Truly and an officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, just after the shooting?
• If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man--a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?

Good observation. One wonders how many other instances there were of Truly "not-seeing someone", but failed to include in his report.

The truth is, We know from the photo and film evidence that Truly and Baker would have passed right by Prayer Man (and numerous other people) as they entered the building.

Mr. Hocking

The WC seemed to put so much stock in these FBI "interviews". Interestingly, they are always written, by the agent, in the third person and I have yet to see one signed by the interviewee, as would be the case with a police statement.

The FBI interview that intrigues me the most, and, to me, speaks volumes about FBI statements in general, is the interview with Linnie Mae Randle. In it, according to the FBI, she described the paper bag as being thirty-six inches long; yet in her testimony to the WC she adamantly maintained the bag was closer to twenty-seven inches in length.

Could an overly eager FBI agent have added the "They saw no one there..." to this statement?

[Richard Hocking]

There is a very odd detail in Roy Truly's FBI interview report from the evening of the assassination:

They saw no one there.

Where? Why, just inside the front of the building.

Ask yourself:

• Why is Truly even having to disclaim having seen 'someone' there?
• Doesn't it seem to you like he has been asked the question, Did you see 'anyone' there?
• Now what might have given the interviewing agents the very idea of asking Truly such a question?
• And why is the writer of the report making a point of including such a non-event in said report?
• Could it be that 'someone'--some significant third party--has been talking noisily about having seen Truly and an officer 'there', just inside the front of the building, just after the shooting?
• If so, then might that 'someone' be none other than the person we have been calling Prayer Man--a young white short-haired male, evidently a person employed in the TSBD building, who was at the front entrance during the shooting yet went oddly unnoticed by everyone else congregated there?

Good observation. One wonders how many other instances there were of Truly "not-seeing someone", but failed to include in his report.

The truth is, We know from the photo and film evidence that Truly and Baker would have passed right by Prayer Man (and numerous other people) as they entered the building.

Mr. Hocking

The WC seemed to put so much stock in these FBI "interviews". Interestingly, they are always written, by the agent, in the third person and I have yet to see one signed by the interviewee, as would be the case with a police statement.

The FBI interview that intrigues me the most, and, to me, speaks volumes about FBI statements in general, is the interview with Linnie Mae Randle. In it, according to the FBI, she described the paper bag as being thirty-six inches long; yet in her testimony to the WC she adamantly maintained the bag was closer to twenty-seven inches in length.

Could an overly eager FBI agent have added the "They saw no one there..." to this statement?

Robert, I think that is what we are all pondering. Whether it was an FBI agent, or Truly himself, the remark "They saw no one there ..." sticks out oddly like a red flag. Especially when we know Truly and Baker had just passed the person whose identity is the subject of this thread.

btw, "Richard" is fine.