Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

How exactly do those dismissing Holmes's version of what Oswald said in custody explain its uncanny resemblance to what Detective Ed Hicks was telling the press on the evening of the assassination?

[Sean Murphy]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

If Oswald is Prayer Man, and if there was indeed an interaction between him and Marrion Baker at or near the front entrance just seconds after the shooting, then it is far from fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing on the part of the 'investigating' authorities to suppress these toxic facts would be the immediate response to the alarming claim he was making in custody.

[Richard Hocking]

We have reasonably established Prayer Man as a TSBD man, his clothing indicating a manual labor type employee as opposed to a managerial type that would be wearing suit and tie. The available candidates that meet these criteria are limited. They include order fillers, janitor, clerks, and warehousemen. Below is a list of TSBD employees who meet that description. I have added observations regarding their locations when the motorcade passed the TSBD, as claimed in testimony or revealed in film and photo evidence, along with some comments regarding their possibility of being Prayer Man.

Danny Arce – Floor laying crew at the TSBD - Watched Presidential Limo from North side of Elm Street in front of TSBD, (to the West of the Entrance). Wrong location; not a candidate.

Jack Dougherty - 5th floor of TSBD 10' from elevator; he is described by Roy Truly as being a “great big husky fellow”, Description and location disqualify him from consideration as Prayer Man.

Buell Wesley Frazier - Top of front steps at the Center Rail. His precise description of his location, along with his tall thin physique rule him out. See earlier discussion about Frazier (and photos) in this thread.

Charles Givens - Mullendorf's Cafe or Parking lot at Record Street. Being at least one block away means it could not have been Givens.

James Jarman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Carl Edward Jones - sitting on the front steps / out by Elm Street with Truly, Campbell and Reid. Saw the President slump after being shot. He cannot be Prayer Man.

Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps. Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgen’s. He is not Prayer Man.

Billy Lovelady - front steps. Gone from the Steps well before the Darnell shot was taken. Corroborated testimony and film show he is not Prayer Man.

Harold Norman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Eddie Piper – sitting on a box watching through the second window from the corner on the 1st floor. Location and other factors rule him out.

Troy Eugene West - making coffee on the 1st floor. Did not know JFK had been shot until people rushed into building talking about it. He is not Prayer Man.

Bonnie Ray Wiliams - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Who's left?

[Richard Hocking]

I agree it's fair. The step witnesses and nearly every other employee of the TSBD was asked if they saw any stranger/ or anyone who was not known to them. They all agreed there were no strangers in the building that morning, with the single exception of Danny Arce. (Arce claimed he assisted an old man with "kidney" problems to a rest room, and then saw the old man get into a car and leave before the motorcade arrived.)

I like the way you put "kidney" in quotes, Richard.

Coincidences happen every day, but I have a theory that someone left Lee Oswald's jacket in the bathroom

and someone else took it to Oak Cliff, and dropped it near the Tippit crime scene.

The "old man" may not have been so old.

The thing that bothers me about my own theory is that Arce said there were also ladies in the car

(which, if I am not mistaken, was heading south, which would include Oak Cliff) as it drove away.

One always assumes that JFK's assassins were males, but history and our experience (including the RFK assassination) tells us that women can sometimes be bad actors too.

Ray, maybe they weren't "ladies"?

Interesting idea about the jacket though.

[Pat Speer]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

If Oswald is Prayer Man, and if there was indeed an interaction between him and Marrion Baker at or near the front entrance just seconds after the shooting, then it is far from fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing on the part of the 'investigating' authorities to suppress these toxic facts would be the immediate response to the alarming claim he was making in custody.

What about Mrs. Reid, Sean? She said she saw Oswald coming out of the break room after the shooting. If Oswald is Prayer Man, and the Baker/Truly run-in with Oswald happened on the first floor, she would have to have been a xxxx, correct? If she was lying, however, one would have to wonder why she said she thought Oswald was wearing a t-shirt at the time...and not the brown shirt he was wearing when arrested, whose fibers matched the fibers found on the rifle.

Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote:

"Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front."

I fail to see the point of your argument, and how it could possibly make Holmes' testimony to the WC untrustworthy.

[Pat Speer]

Quote:

"Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front."

I fail to see the point of your argument, and how it could possibly make Holmes' testimony to the WC untrustworthy.

I don't believe Holmes a xxxx, if that's what you're getting at. I just think he's highly unreliable as to Oswald's exact words about what he did after the shooting. He wasn't there to compare and contrast Oswald's statements about his movements and to try to catch him in a lie; that was Fritz's job. He was there to discuss the rifle; that's it.

As an exercise, I suggest everyone here go back and read a post you made a week or so ago. Now try to remember the EXACT words of the post you were responding to. You can't do it. And neither could Holmes. Where there were gaps, he fudged things. When people fudge things, they often reach for what feels familiar. Something they've read in the paper--or heard from a friendly cop--is likely to feel familiar.

By way of example, there are a number of witnesses claiming they saw Kennedy's foot fly up over the side of the limo during the shooting. This was something they read in the paper. It never happened.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Pat Speer

[J. Raymond Carroll]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

It is not nearly so fanciful as the ridiculous claim that a proud young ex-marine, wearing his Semper Fidelis ring, shot his president in impossible circumstances, a man he admired and was actually fond of, by all accounts, then went to get a coke.

And there can be no doubt, since no one contradicts Mrs. Reid, who gave an affidavit the same day

and later testified, that he did in fact have a coke in his hand right after his encounter with Baker.

And let us recall his demeanor, as described by Baker and Truly, one of the most glaring anomalies

in the Warren Report.

It was the demeanor of an innocent man.

Edited August 22, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote:

"Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front."

I fail to see the point of your argument, and how it could possibly make Holmes' testimony to the WC untrustworthy.

I don't believe Holmes a xxxx, if that's what you're getting at. I just think he's highly unreliable as to Oswald's exact words about what he did after the shooting. He wasn't there to compare and contrast Oswald's statements about his movements and to try to catch him in a lie; that was Fritz's job. He was there to discuss the rifle; that's it.

As an exercise, I suggest everyone here go back and read a post you made a week or so ago. Now try to remember the EXACT words of the post you were responding to. You can't do it. And neither could Holmes. Where there were gaps, he fudged things. When people fudge things, they often reach for what feels familiar. Something they've read in the paper--or heard from a friendly cop--is likely to feel familiar.

By way of example, there are a number of witnesses claiming they saw Kennedy's foot fly up over the side of the limo during the shooting. This was something they read in the paper. It never happened.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this, Pat. I have gone over Holmes' WC testimony several times and I have to say I am quite impressed with Holmes' recall. He is able to present minute details to the Commission months after the assassination.

If he made mistakes in his testimony, would you be so good as to point them out to us? Or perhaps you could show us where you believe he "fudged" things in his testimony?

[John Dolva]

Holmes himself provides an answer to his recall when he describes in minute detail how at the end of a day on the road as a USPO-PI he could go through everything he did from waking up, which foot first touched the floor till when he settled for the night. I don't trust him. I think everything he said or did was said or done for a reason. It would not surprise me one bit if he is found to be one of the most important people involved in the assassination. I also suspect a significant step can be made in identifying the four five other people with him (he forgot who they were.) watching the assassination as well as proving ( or disproving ) whether the "Agencies" first responded to a report that shots came from the Terminal Annexe. Holmes said so.

[Sean Murphy]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

If Oswald is Prayer Man, and if there was indeed an interaction between him and Marrion Baker at or near the front entrance just seconds after the shooting, then it is far from fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing on the part of the 'investigating' authorities to suppress these toxic facts would be the immediate response to the alarming claim he was making in custody.

What about Mrs. Reid, Sean? She said she saw Oswald coming out of the break room after the shooting. If Oswald is Prayer Man, and the Baker/Truly run-in with Oswald happened on the first floor, she would have to have been a xxxx, correct? If she was lying, however, one would have to wonder why she said she thought Oswald was wearing a t-shirt at the time...and not the brown shirt he was wearing when arrested, whose fibers matched the fibers found on the rifle.

Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front.

Pat, I do have serious doubts about Jeraldean Reid's testimony.

First, it is contradicted by that of Geneva Hine.

Second, it is a whopping coincidence that, of all the people to come forward on the Saturday with compelling corroboration of Roy Truly's second-floor lunchroom story, it should be the very lady who was standing with Roy Truly (her boss to whom she reported) at the time of the shooting. Quite a fluke, no?

Quite a fluke also that the other person watching the motorcade with Truly and Reid was Ochus Campbell, who is quoted as having told reporters that same day that Oswald had been seen just after the shooting on the first floor.

It also seems suspiciously pat that this lady should just so happen to spot Oswald at the very moment he was coming through the door into the office with--and Mrs. Reid noticed this!--a full coke in his hand. What a marvelous ticking of boxes for her boss's story.

Why did Mrs Reid say t-shirt only? Hard to say, but it's possible she actually did see Oswald in a white t-shirt on the second floor, but several minutes before the motorcade.

When might this have been? The following snippet in her WC testimony may give us a tantalising clue:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Did Reid see Lee Oswald there? It's hardly a stretch to suspect so, given Carolyn Arnold's claim to have seen him there just a little after that.

**

As for Holmes, I find it odd that one would trust him on Oswald's claim in custody less than one would trust Will 'Case Cinched' Fritz, the man who threatened to beat the living daylights out of Buell Wesley Frazier if he didn't cooperate.

I have no doubt that Holmes was a shady insider, but why in heaven's name would he deliberately tell the WC something so disastrous to the official story?

No, I think it's perfectly reasonable to supect that Holmes let the cat out of the bag by saying he had heard Oswald say just what Bookhout & Hosty had heard him say: I went upstairs to the coke machine, bought a coke and came on downstairs, which is where I was at the time President passed the building.

Holmes by the way doesn't just reproduce the information in those press reports quoting Ed Hicks. He adds significant detail of his own: vestibule + correct description of TSBD front lobby.

Let's also note that James Jarman told the HSCA that Billy Lovelady told him that Oswald was stopped by an officer at the front entrance and vouched for by Mr. Truly.

[Sean Murphy]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

It is not nearly so fanciful as the ridiculous claim that a proud young ex-marine, wearing his Semper Fidelis ring, shot his president in impossible circumstances, a man he admired and was actually fond of, by all accounts, then went to get a coke.

And there can be no doubt, since no one contradicts Mrs. Reid, who gave an affidavit the same day

and later testified, that he did in fact have a coke in his hand right after his encounter with Baker.

And let us recall his demeanor, as described by Baker and Truly, one of the most glaring anomalies

in the Warren Report.

It was the demeanor of an innocent man.

If the second-floor lunchroom incident happened as Baker and Truly testified before the WC, then it is a clear indication that Oswald could not have been the sixth-floor shooter. You'll have no argument from me there.

However, if Oswald is Prayer Man and if those earlier reports of a first-floor incident give the real, suppressed story, then it really is game over altogether.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Let's also note that James Jarman told the HSCA that Billy Lovelady told him that Oswald was stopped by an officer at the front entrance and vouched for by Mr. Truly.

What we got here is colloquially known as

HEARSAY, ergo inadmissible.

Edited August 22, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

However, if Oswald is Prayer Man and if those earlier reports of a first-floor incident give the real, suppressed story, then it really is game over altogether.

Sean: I am not following you.

I believe in Dallas the ground floor was called the first floor.

[Sean Murphy]

However, if Oswald is Prayer Man and if those earlier reports of a first-floor incident give the real, suppressed story, then it really is game over altogether.

Sean: I am not following you.

I believe in Dallas the ground floor was called the first floor.

Yes, first floor = ground floor.