Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robin Unger]

Edited August 23, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

edited:

Edited August 23, 2013 by Robin Unger

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0121a.htm

YES! Thank you Patrick, that is Mrs. Reid's original affidavit.

I had it in my head that this affidavit was given on the 22nd,

but it was in fact the day after.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

edited:

Hi Robin, great to see you joining this thread. Can you please confirm my understanding that you were first to draw attention,

in a Lancer discussion in 2009, to the man we now call Prayer Man.

Should anyone else be credited?

[Robin Unger]

From memory i believe Sean noticed it first, and then brought it to my attention

[Ray Mitcham]

Any better?

Edited August 23, 2013 by Ray Mitcham

[J. Raymond Carroll]

From memory i believe Sean noticed it first, and then brought it to my attention

Would it be fair to say that, in that initial discussion with Sean

you guys agreed that this man needs to be identified?

[Sean Murphy]

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0121a.htm

YES! Thank you Patrick, that is Mrs. Reid's original affidavit.

I had it in my head that this affidavit was given on the 22nd,

but it was in fact the day after.

Thanks, Ray--and thanks, Pat.

So no same-day corroboration from Mrs. Reid then.

Shall we take a look at Marrion Baker's same-day corroboration?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Shall we take a look at Marrion Baker's same-day corroboration?

Hit me with your best shot!

[Sean Murphy]

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Marrion Baker approaching the TSBD front entrance with revolver in hand.

On the theory I am advancing, Lee Oswald is indeed about to have an encounter with a revolver-toting police officer, but the

• location,
• timing

and

• meaning

of that encounter will be very different to the location, timing and meaning of the encounter that will be fed to the public in the Warren Report.

It will take place

• not in the second-floor lunchroom but just inside the front door in the first-floor lobby
• not within the next minute but within the next ten seconds

and

• Baker will not challenge Oswald only for Truly to vouch for Oswald, he will ask Oswald for help only to have Truly helpfully cut in and introduce himself as building manager.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Marrion Baker approaching the TSBD front entrance with revolver in hand.

On the theory I am advancing,

• Baker will not challenge Oswald only for Truly to vouch for Oswald, he will ask Oswald for help only to have Truly helpfully cut in and introduce himself as building manager.

Putting the encounter on the ground floor.

Are you saying Baker and Truly both lied about the encounter?

I can see where Baker, in the affidavit you posted, was confused about the floor, since he was not familiar

with the building, but Baker's uncertainty about the exact floor means only that he was unsure about which floor it was, and doesn't contradict Truly or Mrs. Reid.

What am I missing?

And I don't think the coke-room encounter was foisted by anybody. It simply could not be avoided,

given the evidence.

The first two books criticising the Warren Report, by Harold Weisberg and Leo Sauvage, both argued convincingly, as Howard Roffman and numerous others have argued down the years, that the coke room encounter actually proves that Lee Oswald could not possibly have been the assassin.

IMO, that incident, which the Warren Report could not avoid, has been a big spur to keeping this inquiry ongoing.

Edited August 23, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Sean Murphy]

Putting the encounter on the ground floor.

Are you saying Baker and Truly both lied about the encounter?

I can see where Baker, in the affidavit you posted, was confused about the floor, since he was not familiar

with the building, but Baker's uncertainty about the exact floor means only that he was unsure about which floor it was, and doesn't contradict Truly or Mrs. Reid.

What am I missing?

And I don't think the coke-room encounter was foisted by anybody. It simply could not be avoided,

given the evidence.

The first two books criticising the Warren Report, by Harold Weisberg and Leo Sauvage, both argued convincingly, as Howard Roffman and numerous others have argued down the years, that the coke room encounter actually proves that Lee Oswald could not possibly have been the assassin.

IMO, that incident, which the Warren Report could not avoid, has been a big spur to keeping this inquiry ongoing.

Ray, the intense emotional and cognitive investment of generations of conspiracy-oriented researchers in the second-floor lunchroom story is understandable but unfortunate.

Regarding Marrion Baker's same-day affidavit:

It gives report of an encounter several floors up the building with a light-brown-jacket-wearing man seen walking away from the stairway.

Baker's affidavit makes no connection between this man and the suspect currently in custody--this despite the fact that said suspect, Lee Harvey Oswald, has been brought into the Homicide Office in front of Baker's own eyes just as he is giving that same affidavit.

Not alone does Baker's affidavit fail to corroborate the lunchroom story told to the WC, it is glaringly at odds with it.

It may even be telling us that Baker apprehended--only to let loose--a man other than Oswald several floors up the building.

Where do you believe Lee Oswald was at the time of the shooting?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Not alone does Baker's affidavit fail to corroborate the lunchroom story told to the WC, it is glaringly at odds with it.

It may even be telling us that Baker apprehended--only to let loose--a man other than Oswald several floors up the building.

I do not see Baker's affidavit contradicting anyone, it only says he wasn't sure which floor he was on.

And you are trying to make a xxxx of too many people, including Lee Oswald

who said he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the policeman came in.

Where do you believe Lee Oswald was at the time of the shooting?

Fritz's notes -- on top of the coke room story -- put the matter beyond much doubt in my mind, and this thread has, for my money (to quote Fritz) "cinched" it.

He was

"Out with BIll Shelley in front."

And I have no doubt he would have so testified at his trial.

And if Sean Murphy, Duncan MacRae, Richard Hocking, Robin Unger, Gerda, and those involved in the Prayer Man inquiry were there to help, he would have proved it.

Edited August 23, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray, the intense emotional and cognitive investment of generations of conspiracy-oriented researchers in the second-floor lunchroom story is understandable but unfortunate.

There is and always was overwhelming evidence to support the coke room story,

and better men than I (plus Sylvia Meagher, from memory) have said so.

It was and remains a glaring anomaly in the Warren Report.

but thank you Sean for that most enlightening dime-store lesson in psychology.

Edited August 23, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll