Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

loveladyshelley.jpg

Calvery.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 3.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So if Calvary runs from the concrete island to the TSBD doorway, following Baker.

and on the way passes Lovelady and Shelley.

That leaves us with who on the steps ? Prayer man, Frazier, Molina, Williams ?

Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch.
Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that exte

Edited by Robin Unger
Link to post
Share on other sites

So if Calvary runs from the concrete island to the TSBD doorway, following Baker.

and on the way passes Lovelady and Shelley.

That leaves us with who on the steps ? Prayer man, Frazier, Molina, Williams ?

...

Robin,

Williams may or may not still have been there. In one of his later testimonies, he claimed he left the steps immediately after the last shot and went to the back stairs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Any clues who this woman in the black dress is, seen running behind baker.

She looks to be running FAST from the concrete island towards the TSBD entrance. ( one of the TSBD girls ? )

she would have to run past prayer man to enter the building.

Credit: Duncan for this GIF

bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

ff6c521d-2d61-444a-baf0-2eabc5ee555d.gif

Robin,

I thought I once saw a picture that included Hicks, Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, and Dishong standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign.

If we can locate that, it might show what those women were wearing ...

Edit: Zapruder frame 157 shows the backs of 5 women near the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Edited by Richard Hocking
Link to post
Share on other sites

From Will Fritz's personal handwritten copy of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's contemporaneous interrogation notes:

AgOLirS.jpg

Did Oswald say: I don't own a rifle saw?

Of course not.

There is a slight elevation in the position of the word 'saw' with respect to the previous word--

WY0uEQY.jpg

--indicative of the beginning of a new thought:

5iUSKpk.jpg

Oswald said:

  • I don't own a rifle.
  • However I did see one in the building...

Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines.

Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to post
Share on other sites

M76sNHw.jpg

Has Bookhout or Fritz erroneously written the word 'says' twice?

Of course not.

There is a slight elevation in the position of the second instance of the word 'says' with respect to the previous word--

nI8YiN8.jpg

--indicative of the beginning of a new thought:

s8H3u27.jpg

Oswald:

  • I am a member of ACLU
  • Mrs. Pane is too

Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines.

Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to post
Share on other sites

hjIlxUs.jpg



Did Oswald say: I bought a coke on the second floor when...?


No.


There is a slight elevation in the position of the word 'when' with respect to the previous word--



27wwZyw.jpg



----indicative of the beginning of a new thought:



ZwlDsmq.jpg




Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines:


  • Claims 2nd Floor coke
  • When off[icer] came in to 1st fl[oor] [was having] lunch out with with Bill Shelley [and others] in front

Oswald is making special mention of Shelley simply because he was the most senior TSBD man standing on the steps.


Shelley however probably never even noticed that Oswald was there.



Fritz, as we have already seen, let this very big moggy out of the bag during his WC testimony:



Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...



We know now that Lee was telling the truth...



sFrr2JP.jpg


Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to post
Share on other sites

ZwlDsmq.jpg

Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines:

  • Claims 2nd Floor coke
  • When off[icer] came in to 1st fl[oor] [was having] lunch out with with Bill Shelley [and others] in front

In their joint interrogation report, written while Oswald was still alive, Bookhout and Hosty mentioned Oswald's non-toxic trip upstairs for the coke but completely fudged the issue of his claimed whereabouts at the time of the shooting and the officer's dash up the front steps and into the first floor:

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

As this report was being put together by the two agents, Bookhout was looking at his notes which contained (we now know, thanks to Fritz's copy) explicit mention of an officer coming in. Yet that massively important detail is not even mentioned in the account of the lunchroom visit. Why? Because the officer coming in had nothing to do with the lunchroom visit. It had however everything to do with Oswald's alibi. And there was simply no way any of that was ever going into an official interrogation report.

James Hosty in the months and years ahead would never offer any corroboration for Bookhout’s solo report claim that Oswald talked about such an incident in the lunchroom. It is not in Hosty’s own contemporaneous interrogation notes. It is not in his Warren Commission testimony. It is not in his 1996 book Assignment: Oswald.

**

After Oswald's death, and without input or corroboration from Hosty, Bookhout took this section of his notes--

ZwlDsmq.jpg

--and gave it a preposterous gloss that had the double merit of posthumously 'confirming' the lunchroom incident Roy Truly was telling people about and making Oswald sound like a very bad xxxx:

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly [...]

Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to post
Share on other sites

ZwlDsmq.jpg

Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines:

  • Claims 2nd Floor coke
  • When off[icer] came in to 1st fl[oor] [was having] lunch out with with Bill Shelley [and others] in front

In their joint interrogation report, written while Oswald was still alive, Bookhout and Hosty mentioned Oswald's non-toxic trip upstairs for the coke but completely fudged the issue of his claimed whereabouts at the time of the shooting and the officer's dash up the front steps and into the first floor:

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

As this report was being put together by the two agents, Bookhout was looking at his notes which contained (we now know, thanks to Fritz's copy) explicit mention of an officer coming in. Yet that massively important detail is not even mentioned in the account of the lunchroom visit. Why? Because the officer coming in had nothing to do with the lunchroom visit. It had however everything to do with Oswald's alibi. And there was simply no way any of that was ever going into an official interrogation report.

James Hosty in the months and years ahead would never offer any corroboration for Bookhout’s solo report claim that Oswald talked about such an incident in the lunchroom. It is not in Hosty’s own contemporaneous interrogation notes. It is not in his Warren Commission testimony. It is not in his 1996 book Assignment: Oswald.

**

After Oswald's death, and without input or corroboration from Hosty, Bookhout took this section of his notes--

ZwlDsmq.jpg

--and gave it a preposterous gloss that had the double merit of posthumously 'confirming' the lunchroom incident Roy Truly was telling people about and making Oswald sound like a very bad xxxx:

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly [...]

Hello Sean

I have often wondered if there is not a special section of Hell reserved for men such as J. Edgar Hoover, who would have been the driving force behind such creative FBI evidence as Bookhout's report above.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Any clues who this woman in the black dress is, seen running behind baker.

She looks to be running FAST from the concrete island towards the TSBD entrance. ( one of the TSBD girls ? )

she would have to run past prayer man to enter the building.

Credit: Duncan for this GIF

Robin,

I thought I once saw a picture that included Hicks, Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, and Dishong standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign.

If we can locate that, it might show what those women were wearing ...

Edit: Zapruder frame 157 shows the backs of 5 women near the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Thanks for reminding me Richard.

the woman i marked Calvary, doesn't look like the running woman in Darnell ?

click on the image to view full size

3-women.jpg

Image9.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Sean

This paragraph has certainly been

embellished past participle, past tense ofem·bel·lish (Verb)

Verb
  1. .
  2. Make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, esp. ones that are not true.

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly [...]

Original

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.

at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn ?

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly ?

Edited by Robin Unger
Link to post
Share on other sites

Any clues who this woman in the black dress is, seen running behind baker.

She looks to be running FAST from the concrete island towards the TSBD entrance. ( one of the TSBD girls ? )

she would have to run past prayer man to enter the building.

Credit: Duncan for this GIF

Robin,

I thought I once saw a picture that included Hicks, Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, and Dishong standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign.

If we can locate that, it might show what those women were wearing ...

Edit: Zapruder frame 157 shows the backs of 5 women near the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Thanks for reminding me Richard.

the woman i marked Calvary, doesn't look like the running woman in Darnell ?

click on the image to view full size

3-women.jpg

Image9.jpg

The biggest thing I notice is the Calvary skirt in Cabluck looks lighter than the skirt of the woman running in the Darnell clip.

When I was earlier looking at the Croft photo of the group eastward on the Elm St curb, there is another woman who is wearing clothing similar to the runner in Darnell.

Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

The biggest thing I notice is the Calvary skirt in Cabluck looks lighter than the skirt of the woman running in the Darnell clip.

When I was earlier looking at the Croft photo of the group eastward on the Elm St curb, there is another woman who is wearing clothing similar to the runner in Darnell.

Yes, i see the running woman in Darnell wearing a light top, ( possibly a cardigan ) and dark dress.

I see the woman run from the concrete island area, not the STEMMONS sign

Edited by Robin Unger
Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

The biggest thing I notice is the Calvary skirt in Cabluck looks lighter than the skirt of the woman running in the Darnell clip.

When I was earlier looking at the Croft photo of the group eastward on the Elm St curb, there is another woman who is wearing clothing similar to the runner in Darnell.

Yes, i see the running woman in Darnell wearing a light top, ( possibly a cardigan ) and dark dress.

I see the woman run from the concrete island area, not the STEMMONS sign

Where I first pick her up it looks like the Elm St extension, not far from the Oak tree. Perhaps just crossing over from the island.

It took Baker roughly 10-15 seconds to gun up Houston and park his cycle in front of the TSBD ... ? So the running woman had about that much time to get to her position in the Darnell clip. Do you know how soon after the shots the Cabluck photo was taken?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...