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Hello Sean

I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.

From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?

Correct on all counts, Robert.

Edited by Sean Murphy
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Hello Sean

I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.

From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?

Correct on all counts, Robert.

So, if the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal, it may be safe to assume the same was true of the back wall of the west elevator.

If a person was travelling down from the upper floors in the west elevator, could a person be travelling down from the upper floors in the east elevator at the same time, and the person in the west elevator might be unaware of the movement of the east elevator? And, with entrances facing away from each other, could that person exit the east elevator (and the building) without the person exiting the west elevator seeing him? For that matter, people ascending (or descending) the NW stairs might not have a very good view of the east elevator, and only when they were on the landing between stairwells.

When do we get to Mr. Dougherty? he says with bated breath. :)

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Page 5 of the 'Fritz Notes', at the top of which Fritz notates the date and time of the interrogation session (11-23 - 6.35) :

BMq7qNw.jpg

Except that's not quite what he does.

For the first thing he writes is:

xmB9mC3.jpg

11 23: He's confused Bookhout's date notation with a time notation.

And then, coming to Bookhout's next entry--"6.35"--he realises his error and corrects it:

EJMjsIV.jpg

Date: 11-23

Time: 6.35

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Hello Sean

I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.

From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?

Correct on all counts, Robert.

So, if the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal, it may be safe to assume the same was true of the back wall of the west elevator.

If a person was travelling down from the upper floors in the west elevator, could a person be travelling down from the upper floors in the east elevator at the same time, and the person in the west elevator might be unaware of the movement of the east elevator? And, with entrances facing away from each other, could that person exit the east elevator (and the building) without the person exiting the west elevator seeing him? For that matter, people ascending (or descending) the NW stairs might not have a very good view of the east elevator, and only when they were on the landing between stairwells.

When do we get to Mr. Dougherty? he says with bated breath. :)

Exactly, Robert, and that's how I believe the shooter(s) escaped--they simply took the east elevator down while Truly and Baker were taking the west elevator up.

This explains why Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles saw or heard no-one -- not Baker or Truly, not a stranger or strangers-- going up or coming down the stairs.

It was all so simple--and the 'investigating' authorities knew it.

Which is why Truly was made to tell a wholly fictitious story of his and the officer's having gotten on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

Edited by Sean Murphy
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Page 1 of 'Fritz's Notes':

leMvggo.jpg

Another telling deletion:

CVIPG8b.jpg

sZucjwk.jpg

2nd to 1st:

Fritz is hardly sitting in that first interrogation wondering to himself, 'Now is this my first interrogation session with this suspect or my second?'

No, he's jotting down a copy of Bookhout's notes and isn't sure at first which session it is covering.

Once he gets clear on this he corrects 2nd to 1st, confirming the change with an arrow pointing to the date: 11/22.

CVIPG8b.jpg

Edited by Sean Murphy
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Hello Sean

I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.

From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?

Correct on all counts, Robert.

So, if the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal, it may be safe to assume the same was true of the back wall of the west elevator.

If a person was travelling down from the upper floors in the west elevator, could a person be travelling down from the upper floors in the east elevator at the same time, and the person in the west elevator might be unaware of the movement of the east elevator? And, with entrances facing away from each other, could that person exit the east elevator (and the building) without the person exiting the west elevator seeing him? For that matter, people ascending (or descending) the NW stairs might not have a very good view of the east elevator, and only when they were on the landing between stairwells.

When do we get to Mr. Dougherty? he says with bated breath. :)

Exactly, Robert, and that's how I believe the shooter(s) escaped--they simply took the east elevator down while Truly and Baker were taking the west elevator up.

This explains why Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles saw or heard no-one -- not Baker or Truly, not a stranger or stranger-- going up or coming down the stairs.

It was all so simple--and the 'investigating' authorities knew it.

Which is why Truly was made to tell a wholly fictitious story of his and the officer's having gotten on the east elevator on the fifth floor.

Hello Sean

That makes a lot more sense. My linear thinking had both elevators coming down at the same time but, as you point out, the sound of Baker and Truly ascending in the west elevator would mask the sound of escaping shooters descending in the east elevator. However, is it possible both elevators were on upper floors (ie. 5th floor) and, when Baker and Truly summoned the west elevator to come down, it afforded the shooters an opportunity to bring the east elevator down? I forget the difference in the two elevators but, I seem to recall one being easier to summon than the other. Could the shooters have waited above for the west elevator to be called down and begun their descent as soon as it began descending?

I noticed, in a few of your last posts, you dangled Jack Dougherty in front of us. I find his testimony very interesting, and it has the capacity to seriously contradict the testimony of Baker and Truly regarding the location of the west elevator car following the assassination.

From the WC testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty, April 8, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - And that you went back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. BALL - And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL - And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; that was the only one I heard.

Mr. BALL - You only heard one?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And where did it sound like it came from?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.

Mr. BALL - From overhead?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How did you get to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Elevator.

Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you take?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side the one on this side is the one I took.

Mr. BALL - Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I know it.

Mr. BALL - Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - East side.

Mr. BALL - Is it the one that you punch a button on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Or the one that you use a control on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It's the one you push a button on.

Mr. BALL - The one you push a button on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - I believe that is the west side, isn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL - Now, that's the one you took up?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Where did you take that---to what floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I took it up to the sixth floor."

Further WC testimony from J. Dougherty on the same day:

"Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL - That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And what were you doing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock.

Mr. BALL - And what did you do then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I came on back downstairs.

Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell."

Something does not seem to add up here.

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Robert,

I would assume the shooter(s) waited until the cables started moving again on the west elevator (i.e. signifying that it was coming up) before making their own descent. If this all seems a little improvised on their part--well, it was. Baker's entry into the building was remarkably quick.

Let's talk about Jack!

What, in the portions of WC testimony you've quoted above, doesn't add up?

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Robert,

I would assume the shooter(s) waited until the cables started moving again on the west elevator (i.e. signifying that it was coming up) before making their own descent. If this all seems a little improvised on their part--well, it was. Baker's entry into the building was remarkably quick.

Let's talk about Jack!

What, in the portions of WC testimony you've quoted above, doesn't add up?

(Aha! he says, FINALLY we get to Mr. Dougherty! :))

Well, first off, it appears, from Mr. Dougherty's testimony, that he went by the west elevator to the 6th floor within five minutes of the assassination, and saw no one on that floor. He then took that west elevator to the 5th floor, and, again, saw no one.

Most significant, though, is his testimony placing him within ten feet of the west elevator entrance at the time he heard the lone shot he heard. He does not claim to continue working but, rather, claims to have come down to the 1st floor on the west elevator.

All things considered, unless Dougherty loitered on the 5th floor for a few minutes before descending, and did not hear Truly calling up the shaft for the elevator, the west elevator should have been waiting on the 1st floor when Truly and Baker arrived.

When Baker and Truly arrive on the 5th floor, via the NW stairwell, on there way to the 7th floor, they discover the east elevator waiting for them, but not the west elevator. Truly claims, in his testimony, he did not believe he saw the west elevator on the 6th or 7th floor, indicating the west elevator had descended to a lower floor from where he originally saw it on the 5th floor.

It would be very easy to imagine that Dougherty a) did not hear Truly call for the elevator and b ) loitered long enough on the 5th floor that he was descending on the west elevator as Truly/Baker were ascending the stairs to the 5th floor. However, anyone making this assumption is required to read this excerpt from Roy Truly's WC testimony:

"Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?

Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was."

The real problem here, aside from Truly's and Dougherty's testimonies contradicting each others, is how Dougherty, even if he was mistaken about the time and ascended to the 5th floor AFTER Truly/Baker, was able to bring the west elevator down from the 5th floor, in order to take it up to the 6th floor. He would have encountered the same problem Truly did, namely, the gate being open on the elevator on the 5th floor, preventing the elevator being summoned to the 1st floor. This, of course, makes Truly's "best guess" that Dougherty was the operator of the west elevator nonsensical.

P.S. The one maddening thing about Mr. Dougherty's testimony is that, while he tells the WC that he descended from the 5th floor via the west elevator following the shooting, he does not say (nor does Mr. Ball pursue the point) whether the west elevator car stayed on the 5th floor, following Dougherty's descent from the 6th floor, or if Dougherty had to summon the west elevator car from the 1st floor (or some lower floor) to allow him to continue his trip to the 1st floor.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Robert,

Dougherty's WC testimony is a mess, but his basic story does have one very important thing going for it: it was the story he told consistently from the very start.

Here's his 11/22 affidavit, given within two hours of the assassination (click to enlarge):

dnOBgm9.jpg

And here's his FBI interview from the same day:

OKAC8yQ.png

I believe Jack Dougherty

  • is telling the truth in these first-day statements
  • is wholly innocent of any involvement in the assassination
  • has genuine cognitive problems, as evidenced not only in the statements which Roy Truly and Jack's own father will make on that score but also in his peculiar response pattern during his WC appearance.

I also believe his first-day statements above contain a vital clue that has been telling us all along how Jack really came down from the fifth floor just after the shooting: he ran down the stairs.

Can you spot the clue?

Edited by Sean Murphy
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Robert,

Dougherty's WC testimony is a mess, but his basic story does have one very important thing going for it: it was the story he told consistently from the very start.

Here's his 11/22 affidavit, given within two hours of the assassination (click to enlarge):

dnOBgm9.jpg

And here's his FBI interview from the same day:

OKAC8yQ.png

I believe Jack Dougherty

  • is telling the truth in these first-day statements
  • is wholly innocent of any involvement in the assassination
  • has genuine cognitive problems, as evidenced not only in the statements which Roy Truly and Jack's own father will make on that score but also in his peculiar response pattern during his WC appearance.
I also believe his first-day statements above contain a vital clue that has been telling us all along how Jack really came down from the fifth floor just after the shooting: he ran down the stairs.

Can you spot the clue?

Hmmm...I've read both statements a few times but, the clue eludes me. Please elaborate.

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Sean

you may need to rename " Prayer man "

" Prayer woman " ????

i have some new Darnell frames from " JFK the movie " Blu Ray

I will create a downloadable zip file containing ALL the frames

Edited by Robin Unger
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Here it is, Robert:

LL2bQMY.jpg

QvQfUH4.jpg

Interesting, Sean. I'm at a bit of a loss to make the connection, although it is still early here, and I am on my first cup of coffee.

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Sean

you may need to rename " Prayer man "

" Prayer woman "

i have some new Darnell frames from " JFK the movie " Blu Ray

We would love to see these frames, Robin.

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